Batya33

This is why when I did on line dating I emailed back and forth once or twice, spoke on the phone for about 20 minutes and then made a plan to meet if we clicked. That's it. I didn't want any further interaction because I didn't want to get attached or have unrealistic expectations of a complete stranger before meeting in person and seeing if there was even potential to go further. I agree that a person should treat others with courtesy and call to cancel a date if need be or not simply disappear, but on line dating, like all dating, requires somewhat of a thick skin. If you email with someone for 6 weeks you are risking getting attached to the email image of the person, which feels real and if something like this happens you get upset. If you simply focus on those who are on link removed for the purpose of meeting in person as soon as possible, then you prevent this sort of attachment prior to meeting in person. Once in awhile I made exceptions and e-mailed for longer and it was in general a mistake particularly when we met in person, there was no chemistry or we otherwise didn't click, and it was much harder to say no to a second date because of the history. It's not worth it in my opinion.

During times in my life when I was feeling fragile or vulnerable- particularly after a break up - sometimes I would misread signals as signals of interest or see even a little friendliness as full blown interest. I don't think there was anything wrong with asking him for coffee but I wouldn't ask anyone to have coffee, or anything else for that matter unless you are feeling confident and prepared for rejection (whether you meant it romantically or otherwise).

I think the main problem is when people presume that because they've been typing and talking to this on line person for months that somehow the safety concerns are lessened and that it is not like meeting a complete stranger. I think as long as you presume, for purposes of safety, that you are meeting a complete stranger and act accordingly, that makes the most sense. The internet can give someone a very false sense of ehnanced comfort, security and familiarity based on intense on line conversations. That intense connection, etc might turn out to be true in real life but when it comes to safety the presumption should be "complete stranger." Similarly, I wouldn't go home with someone I met at a bar, or on the first date unless we already knew each other or he knew close friends of mine who vouched for him and knew him well. Even then .. . .

Sounds like the problem here is that she is trying to figure out what is good for her. There is no rule book but perhaps sharing experiences that might relate to her specific experience and provide insight would be helpful.

No, actually. It is to his advantage to carry my packages - he enjoys it and it makes him feel like a man - more power to him. I don't think relationships should be equitable as in 50/50 as to every aspect or issue - rather, the responsibilities should be divided in a way that makes each person feel comfortable. My boyfriend would be very uncomfortable if I carried his packages (I have offered, believe me!). I don't look at relationships as what is "to my advantage" - I look at what makes each person comfortable. I think my scenario works for most men and women quite well - at least in my 20 plus years experience of knowing hundreds of men and women in their 20's 30's and 40's and beyond. As far as the OP - she should be out with her friends, dating, or out doing something on her own (volunteer work? working on a theatrical production? getting coffee at a book store??) if she would prefer not to be sitting in her pajamas at home waiting for him to call. I never would be doing that because, if he hadn't called me in advance for weekend plans and we were first dating, he would be off my radar by Thursday and I would have made plans with myself (whether that meant staying home or otherwise), or with friends, or I would have had another date who called in advance. No reason for her or anyone else to be lonely. On the other hand I can think of nothing lonelier than being out on a date with someone who asked you out last minute and clearly is not that into you or with someone who accepted your invitation because he had nothing better to do, but was flattered to be asked and didn't mind the free entertainment.

Honestly, I don't think this is the right forum to get good advice - or any forum - on this serious and complex issue. You mentioned prayer so - is it possible that you can find a religious figure who you trust with whom to talk confidentially about your concerns? One reason it's so hard to give thoughtful advice- everyone has a different idea of what is needed for a happy marriage - particularly when it comes to romantic sparks or lack thereof. It's so personal! I am sorry you are going through such a rough time and I hope you find the peace you are looking for. For whatever it's worth I think your fiancee is lucky that you are giving this such serious and heart-wrenching thought and attention.

"Times have changed. Women have become more independent, stronger and able to form relationships and marriages as equal partners. And that can only be a good thing for everyone" I agree with all that particularly in the work place. When it comes to relationships I still think for the most part it is works out best for both men and women if in the beginning the man does most of (not all!) of the initiating of calls, asking and planning for dates. I don't mean chase or that the woman should play hard to get or that anyone should play games. When I was dating I would rarely accept a date if the man called after Wednesday for a weekend night. I wouldn't criticize him or tell him that he should have called sooner - I would just say I was busy - 99% of the time I was busy with friends or on another date, and 1% of the time I decided that to be good to me, I should be busy with myself and not with someone who called last minute. I made some rare exceptions of course depending on the reason for the last minute call. The men who weren't great advance planners miraculously became great planners after the first or second time I graciously declined a weekend date if they called after Wednesday. Funny how that happens. Most of the men I know would be flattered to be asked out and most of those same men would not choose for marriage a woman who did most of the asking out, calling and planning in the first month or so. They may gripe a bit about being in that role but it feels comfortable for them and mostly, they like it. I do think there is a flawed presumption that just because women are more equal in the work place they should be equally initiating dates and calls in the beginning of a relationship. I think as a relationship forms and becomes serious, things should and do become balanced. In my relationship (like all of my serious relationships) I am a busy professional dating a busy professional - we've both been in the work place for many years (i.e. about 12-15). He did most of the pursuing in the beginning (and when we dated many years ago, he was very shy! now, not so much this time around, 8 years later). He loves the traditional courting and so do I - I put a lot of effort into the relationship both in terms of communication, doing things for him, taking care of him. He insists on paying most of the time, I always offer (with full sincerity) and if he won't let me I make sure that I do things for him as in buy theater tickets, buy him little gifts, prepare meals, etc. I have no interest in the "free meal" aspects of dating him (or anyone else in my past) - but he says he gets a lot of enjoyment out of planning dates and treating me. In short, I like being "the woman" in certain respects - for example, he carries my heavy packages -- and he likes being the man. This is how it works best and is most healthy for most of the women I know and most of the women I know are educated professionals who are treated as equals in the work place. To us, work place and romantic relationships can't be compared as to "equality" - apples and oranges. I have asked out men in the beginning - several times - a few times on first dates, a few times on second or third dates. Never turned into a relationship, likely because if they had been that into me, they would have asked me out first. Again, I am sure there are exceptions even though I don't know of any. And yes it would have been easier for me at times not to be sitting around waiting for a call from Mr. Wonderful and I am sure it would have been easier for the men who were nervous to make the first call or initiate plans -- some of it just doesn't seem very fair or balanced. More power to the people who want to change things and who refuse to follow this tradition. Maybe there will be change in this whole dating scene - who knows. It's not a battle I choose to fight and it's worked out fairly well for me.

That's awesome! Not what I am saying at all though. Sorry to repeat but it seems like there's a misunderstanding. My view is - as I mentioned in previous posts - that women should not do most of the pursuing in the beginning. That is, most of the asking out, planning etc for the first month or so. I also wouldn't advise being the first to ask out either but I think it's fine to ask a man out - but after that I would let him do most of the pursuing in the early stages. I do know of happy healthy relationships where the woman asked the man out on a date. I do not know of any where the woman did most of the pursuing in the beginning. And as with any rules there are exceptions.

Not sure what you mean by the ten years. I meant that I was following the rules for ten years prior to the book being published - not with the same guy, lol. I do not think the man should do the pursuing. I think he should do most of the pursuing in the beginning - typically the first month or so - until there is something more steady and it is more of a given - such that there is less "asking out" and more of an assumption that you'll be seeing each other Saturday nights. It may be outdated but right now I know of no happy healthy long term relationships where the woman did most of the pursuing in the beginning. I do think that if the woman is attracted to a more passive/non-assertive man and likes being the pursuer then by all means that could result in a very happy situation. I have never been attracted to men like that or been interested in being friends with men or women like that. I don't know any women who are really turned on/attracted by that but that doesn't mean they do not exist. It may be outdated for teenagers and women in their early 20's. In my experience, and I know many women in their mid-late 20's and up, nothing has changed.

I would not move in until you are fairly certain that you see yourself with him long term and potentially married. As far as his smoking, not sure where you live but if he is keeping drugs in the apartment and you are there you could be in trouble too. Also keep in mind that were you to get pregnant the drug use could negatively impact the health of your baby. I would discount all of his behavior while on drugs that you see as positive.

I think it is a euphemistic way of saying "I am not sure if I love you in a romantic way." It also could mean that that person likes the high of head over heels and makes a quick exit when that fades. What I would do if someone said that to me is treat it as a break up, begin the healing process, and move on. If he then decided he had made a mistake, he could contact me - I would not want to hear "now I know I am in love" but rather "I know I want to be with you and want to make this work" The "in love" part is too abstract/vague for me to understand as "I want to be in a committed relationship with you."

That's interesting - didn't realize you were having this discussion with a married man. Yes, of course you can read negatives into working out 3 times a week, reading to homeless children and keeping up with current events - just like you can read negatives into anything. To me, those things are far more of an indication of caring for oneself than being able to apply makeup and wear the latest feminine fashions. But that's just me.

I think there is a balance here. If you are meeting them on line and know no one they know, cannot google them to confirm the basics, just plan to meet in public, during the day, on familiar turf with an hour where at least one friend knows about your plan. And, no going in the same car for the first meeting. With those precautions that sounds safe enough to me. I wouldn't tell all my friends if that is their collective attitude, just one or two friends you can trust and who are supportive.

My advice is slightly different. I would change his behavior through negative reinforcement in this way. When he makes a harsh comment - and trust yourself on whether it is harsh and yes of course keep in mind if you are feeling extra-sensitive that day - have a neutral reaction and change the subject. No reaction is far better in stopping the behavior than a negative reaction (you are a mom so you know that kids would prefer to have negative attention than to be ignored). I do think - and again this is so subjective (!) that after the head over heels fades a bit couples can get more critical and sometimes in a joking way. But it's so individual - what bothers me might not bother you, etc. I am one who does not like senses of humor that are all-sarcasm-all-the-time - I like some sarcasm and I don't do well with ultra-sensitive either - there is a balance there. I also think that yes you should have open communication so that if something is too harsh/below the belt you should talk about it but try your best (this is hard) to be direct rather than indirect such as not saying "well maybe you'll be nicer to me" - that brings it up in sort of an indirect way rather than at the time saying "hmmm- that was a bit harsh!" And- if you sense he needs space - give him twice as much as he seems to need - with no bad feelings- just back off. If he says he misses you - don't question it - that might seem insecure. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm asking you to act and not be yourself -it's more like the analogy I made to motherhood (and in my case, when I work with young children) - where you do the positive and negative reinforcement. I have more examples but would prefer if you contact me privately on e-mail (it's up to you - I'd like to help). Good luck with all and by the way -you sound like a great mom!

It sounds like he has been honest with you the whole time. As much as you are minimizing his reluctance to have a "label" he knows how important that label is to you and it's even more important now that you want a commitment. Ask yourself why you have put up with this behavior as long as you have - are you sure you are not the one who's afraid of commitment?

I totally agree with this and believe that the interest should not be expressed as the woman asking the man out on dates early on in the relationship before it is clear that they are going to spend certain evenings together - and even then let him do more of the pursuing. I do think that showing interest by returning calls promptly, being appreciative about the effort he puts into planning, maybe after several dates baking him cookies, etc. I don't think the Rules' authors' personal lives have much to do with the effectiveness of the Rules. I for one have been using the Rules since over ten years before the book was published. It's a great way for me to stay positive about men and relationships because when you treat yourself with self-respect and don't waste time with men who are not that interested in a relationship, you have far more rewarding relationships and friendships with men - and that positively impacts future relationships too. When I hear stories like this about women feeling weird/insecure because they may have been pursuing a man in the beginning I don't think they're being too insecure - I think they sense that in those cases, the man is the type to do more of the pursuing when he is really interested, and they are wondering in that case, since they've been doing more of the pursuing or accepting last minute dates, what the story is.

What I wonder from the OP is whether the guy in question would be ok with a woman who did herself up as described but was a chain smoker and/or heavy drinker, or who was thin and "looked" good but was bulimic. The guy in question seemed to focus on shallow attributes of "looking good" - reminded me of a guy who used to critique my outfits whenever we went out - because of that and a few other things I believe we had five dates tops.

From my experience with teenagers it can be very confusing for teenagers to be in an apartment where mom is with a man who is not married to her mother or her father (I assume he sleeps over - I am a little confused about this situation). As a famous talk radio psychologist has said "children don't get dating - they get attached." She advises not involving children in these types of relationships or having sleep overs etc unless the couple is engaged with a wedding date. I happen to agree with that opinion. I take it you do not. Of course your daughter knows adults argue - it is a different thing entirely when the adults arguing are her mother and her mother's boyfriend - those are direct role models for her. That's all I meant and I respect that you disagree. As far as your relationship, I would make a list of pros and cons about this relationship, including its impact on your daughter, and see which list is longer. Sounds simplistic but I have seen this work fairly well and it sounds like that approach might work for you. Good luck.

If I meet a man and he raises the topic of sex during the first meeting I see that as a red flag. I do believe that if you are going to talk about it early on to let the man know your beliefs and values but not in a lecturing or wordy way. Be as concise as possible and then move on to the next topic. I will not let a man come to my place for the first time - or go to his - unless I tell him in advance - or shortly after he arrives "I am not ready to have sex with you yet." period - I don't even discuss the commitment part - it's not relevant yet. If he asks "when" I will be ready I don't love that comment but then I will explain, concisely. I have had very few problems with men that you describe in my dating experiences. I've even had one or two men tell me that they could not wait until commitment time only to change their minds very quickly - within a few days without any pressure from me (I'm totally fine with walking away and am not mad if we are not on the same page) On the whole, I've always felt respected by men when I tell them my values (they are not religious men) and I have probably had 2 or 3 men in the last ten years stop seeing me specifically because I would not have sex without a commitment.

I try not to read into anything - particularly when it comes to professional contacts. Until he asks you out on a proper date you won't know whether he is interested in dating you - to try to interpret anything else as a sign isn't worth the stress/overanalysis.

I think if you think of loving as synonymous with giving, you stop thinking of it in abstract terms and focus on the specific ways you can give to your partner - it's a bit less thrilling/larger than life but it also makes it real. I'd rather have love shown to me in the little and bigger things and show love in return than hear lofty statements of love.

I don't think caring about oneself is necesarily reflected by makeup or feminine clothes. For example, when I go to the gym, I end up completely, well, drenched - my hair is typically up in a messy bun, etc. That however is one way I take care of my body. Also, I read to children who live at a homeless shelter about once a week - that is how I take care of my soul. I try to do some intelligent reading almost every day and I keep up with current events - how I care for my mind. I definitely believe in being clean, my hair in a flattering style and wearing flattering well-made clothes, accesories and jewelry appropriate for the occasion - and yes, some makeup, etc. But what I think my boyfriend appreciates even more is how I take care of myself in the ways I described. I know plenty of women who get manicures, are into accessorizing, etc - they are admirable for looking put together but I'm not sure that's how I would define taking care of oneself. I wouldn't want a man to focus on those things in me as impressive in how I take care of myself. Those things are fairly easy to do or pay money to get done for you. If a man focused on that too much I'd feel like a barbie doll.

I don't think your daughter should be involved in this relationship anymore until you two decide to get engaged with a definite wedding date. Why subject her to this drama until then?

I would say in the beginning let him do most of the pursuing and until you have a steady plan - i.e. definitely every friday or saturday night -- do not see him unless he makes plans in advance with you and puts at least some effort into making a plan - not just meeting up at a bar every time.