Batya33

A few things. If you are going to contact him I think texting is a bad idea. Pick up the phone and call him. You will not know if he received the text, will not know if your words were misinterpreted and if you don't want to seem pushy to me a text is just as "pushy" just more transparent/indirect. Also, if I go out with someone three times unless we have a specific time/place for our next date I assume I probably won't hear from him again. That sounds negative but it is they way I self-protect. It is too soon for us to have an understanding and it is only three dates. If he is into you, he will call and after three dates I don't think he should feel put upon in having to call for fourth date. Finally, as much as it is nice to bond over stories about exes, etc that can backfire and make the date feel more like a therapy session, not as much fun - even though it's intense it's almost too intense and detracts from the budding romance. Honesty is great but I don't think that's the same as "telling all" - the subject of specifics about exes should be avoided if at all possible so that the two of you can get to know each other and have fun!

All I know from my own experience and that of the hundreds of women I have met and spoken to about this (ages 20s to 40s mostly) is that I know of no happy long term healthy relationships where the woman did most of the asking out on dates and planning for dates, and calling in the first month or so of the relationship. Now, of course, that might be because no one wants to change the way things are currently done, but unless a person wants to be a crusader and work to change the way it is, I would say that on the whole it is ineffective for a woman interested in a man for a long term relationship to do most of the asking out on dates in the beginning stages (before they are dating steadily/exclusively). Typically, a man who is interested, emotionally available and emotionally stable will ask a woman out first even if he is shy. I think it's fine for women to ask men out - I am talking more of a woman who does most of the asking for the first month - bu typically those do not turn into happy long term relationships. You are correct - I have been asked out far more than I have done the asking - but my reason for not asking is not because I am afraid of rejection or don't want to put in the effort but because it is ineffective unless I am looking for a fling (which I never am). I also know of many men who are flattered to be asked out but for whatever reason choose the woman who they initiate the dates with in the beginning to be with on a long term basis. Often I hear the stories of "how we met" and it is with pride that the men describe the initial way they courted the woman - true, sometimes it is with a tinge of "ugh I had to do all that work" but it is mostly pride. On the other hand, women must put in the effort to show sincere interest and to be friendly and approachable to make the asking part easier for the man. Perhaps someday things will change.

At this point as tempting as it is I would stay away from the "hopelessly in love" analysis. Be a lot more practical and hard-headed. When that "hopelessly in love" fades a bit and becomes a bit less thrilling, heady, etc. how would you feel then if you gave up your opportunity to have (biological) children for this man? It's hard to think that way, I know, but you owe it to yourself and to him to be brutally honest with yourself. When your friends start having babies, will you be able to be around them and think "yes, I wanted that but I am glad I got to keep my man even if it meant not having babies." Maybe that will work for you, maybe not - but giving it up for some lofty notions of hopeless love may not get you there, ten plus years down the road when the decision starts to have more of a timing element than it does now. What I would do - once his life settles down a bit with these crises he is experiencing, tell him you want nothing more than to be in his life - when he definitively decides about having kids. That you don't want to get more attached to him knowing his current position on having kids. Or, you can give yourself one or two more years of dating him and then decide how you feel about it - it just might be much harder then because of the increased attachment.

I am glad you discussed this and, in a way, since his views fluctuate, they may change back. It's not surprising that they would fluctuate again at a time like this. Do you think there was anything sabotaging in your reason for bringing this up at the time you did? It was pretty likely that he would not give a positive answer right now, right?

If a girl is very friendly and approachable - lets you know she likes you - you know she is interested- then you will ask her out if you are interested too, right? She doesn't have to be the one to actually ask you out on a date for you to know she's interested, right? I understand that a woman makes your day by asking you out. How many of these women have you gone out with long term? How many of your friends are in long term happy relationships where the women did most of the asking out on each date for the first month or more (i.e. the woman not only asked the man out for the first time but for most of the subsequent dates in the next month or two?). For what it's worth - I have asked out several guys and it's not easy and not that hard either. I've flattered most of those guys, ended up going on a date or two with most of them. None of them turned into real relationships. Not sure if that shows anything, but did want to share.

Maybe the thing to do is to seriously consider not drinking anymore or at the very least not having more than one drink particularly if you are in a vulnerable situation to begin with. The choice to drink is also part of the "choice." There is a great article in the October 2006 Oprah magazine on women and alcohol.

One of my best friends told me a few years ago to make sure to make plans with yourself - and call it a "date" - to have the mindset that you do indeed have plans - even if the plan is to read a book, watch a movie or call some friends. And, if I were you, if he does call you last minute and you are still in the non-exclusive stage I would not accept the plan unless there's a really good reason - i.e. an emergency situation or he just won tickets to something - don't be the afterthought, the "last minute girl" - you might have fun that night but he will know he doesn't have to put in effort for the privilege of your company.

I agree that it was the wrong time to bring it up - my question is, why wasn't this discussed early on before you got involved? I realize that you feel you are too young to marry/have kids but since you apparently know you won't date someone seriously who you would never marry, why didn't you bring it up earlier? I also realize you don't want to come on too strong in the beginning but there are ways of exploring the issue without making it specific to you - just talking about views on family, having kids in a more casual sense. If having kids is a must for you then it is clear - although unfortunate - that he likely is not the guy for you.

What I've seen work many times for people in your age range is to get involved - either back stage or front stage - with community theater. Something about working on a play together (and if you're shy, you can do backstage - costume design, lighting, set construction, etc) seems to bond people both friendships and romantically in a low-key but really fun setting where the focus is not on finding a mate. If not theater then find something similar where you're working on a fun project and the project, not socializing, is the main focus. Good luck!

How would you feel if your spouse or significant other were to say to you "but it only happened once!"? Take this as a sign that you do want a relationship and use that sign to create an environment in which you can have a relationship with a single and emotionally available man. I would get tested ASAP for STD's and then tested again in six months. I would not beat myself up over what you did other than decide never to do it again and never ever to have contact with him unless it has to do with STDs and then I would have a trusted friend contact him on your behalf.

While it may not be cheating - i.e. he may not be having sex with these women - it is inconsistent with commitment and probably - though not definitely - just a matter of time before he does meet one of these women in person. Aren't you worried about STDs or him getting one of these women pregnant?

This is why when I did on line dating I emailed back and forth once or twice, spoke on the phone for about 20 minutes and then made a plan to meet if we clicked. That's it. I didn't want any further interaction because I didn't want to get attached or have unrealistic expectations of a complete stranger before meeting in person and seeing if there was even potential to go further. I agree that a person should treat others with courtesy and call to cancel a date if need be or not simply disappear, but on line dating, like all dating, requires somewhat of a thick skin. If you email with someone for 6 weeks you are risking getting attached to the email image of the person, which feels real and if something like this happens you get upset. If you simply focus on those who are on link removed for the purpose of meeting in person as soon as possible, then you prevent this sort of attachment prior to meeting in person. Once in awhile I made exceptions and e-mailed for longer and it was in general a mistake particularly when we met in person, there was no chemistry or we otherwise didn't click, and it was much harder to say no to a second date because of the history. It's not worth it in my opinion.

During times in my life when I was feeling fragile or vulnerable- particularly after a break up - sometimes I would misread signals as signals of interest or see even a little friendliness as full blown interest. I don't think there was anything wrong with asking him for coffee but I wouldn't ask anyone to have coffee, or anything else for that matter unless you are feeling confident and prepared for rejection (whether you meant it romantically or otherwise).

I think the main problem is when people presume that because they've been typing and talking to this on line person for months that somehow the safety concerns are lessened and that it is not like meeting a complete stranger. I think as long as you presume, for purposes of safety, that you are meeting a complete stranger and act accordingly, that makes the most sense. The internet can give someone a very false sense of ehnanced comfort, security and familiarity based on intense on line conversations. That intense connection, etc might turn out to be true in real life but when it comes to safety the presumption should be "complete stranger." Similarly, I wouldn't go home with someone I met at a bar, or on the first date unless we already knew each other or he knew close friends of mine who vouched for him and knew him well. Even then .. . .

Sounds like the problem here is that she is trying to figure out what is good for her. There is no rule book but perhaps sharing experiences that might relate to her specific experience and provide insight would be helpful.

No, actually. It is to his advantage to carry my packages - he enjoys it and it makes him feel like a man - more power to him. I don't think relationships should be equitable as in 50/50 as to every aspect or issue - rather, the responsibilities should be divided in a way that makes each person feel comfortable. My boyfriend would be very uncomfortable if I carried his packages (I have offered, believe me!). I don't look at relationships as what is "to my advantage" - I look at what makes each person comfortable. I think my scenario works for most men and women quite well - at least in my 20 plus years experience of knowing hundreds of men and women in their 20's 30's and 40's and beyond. As far as the OP - she should be out with her friends, dating, or out doing something on her own (volunteer work? working on a theatrical production? getting coffee at a book store??) if she would prefer not to be sitting in her pajamas at home waiting for him to call. I never would be doing that because, if he hadn't called me in advance for weekend plans and we were first dating, he would be off my radar by Thursday and I would have made plans with myself (whether that meant staying home or otherwise), or with friends, or I would have had another date who called in advance. No reason for her or anyone else to be lonely. On the other hand I can think of nothing lonelier than being out on a date with someone who asked you out last minute and clearly is not that into you or with someone who accepted your invitation because he had nothing better to do, but was flattered to be asked and didn't mind the free entertainment.

Honestly, I don't think this is the right forum to get good advice - or any forum - on this serious and complex issue. You mentioned prayer so - is it possible that you can find a religious figure who you trust with whom to talk confidentially about your concerns? One reason it's so hard to give thoughtful advice- everyone has a different idea of what is needed for a happy marriage - particularly when it comes to romantic sparks or lack thereof. It's so personal! I am sorry you are going through such a rough time and I hope you find the peace you are looking for. For whatever it's worth I think your fiancee is lucky that you are giving this such serious and heart-wrenching thought and attention.

"Times have changed. Women have become more independent, stronger and able to form relationships and marriages as equal partners. And that can only be a good thing for everyone" I agree with all that particularly in the work place. When it comes to relationships I still think for the most part it is works out best for both men and women if in the beginning the man does most of (not all!) of the initiating of calls, asking and planning for dates. I don't mean chase or that the woman should play hard to get or that anyone should play games. When I was dating I would rarely accept a date if the man called after Wednesday for a weekend night. I wouldn't criticize him or tell him that he should have called sooner - I would just say I was busy - 99% of the time I was busy with friends or on another date, and 1% of the time I decided that to be good to me, I should be busy with myself and not with someone who called last minute. I made some rare exceptions of course depending on the reason for the last minute call. The men who weren't great advance planners miraculously became great planners after the first or second time I graciously declined a weekend date if they called after Wednesday. Funny how that happens. Most of the men I know would be flattered to be asked out and most of those same men would not choose for marriage a woman who did most of the asking out, calling and planning in the first month or so. They may gripe a bit about being in that role but it feels comfortable for them and mostly, they like it. I do think there is a flawed presumption that just because women are more equal in the work place they should be equally initiating dates and calls in the beginning of a relationship. I think as a relationship forms and becomes serious, things should and do become balanced. In my relationship (like all of my serious relationships) I am a busy professional dating a busy professional - we've both been in the work place for many years (i.e. about 12-15). He did most of the pursuing in the beginning (and when we dated many years ago, he was very shy! now, not so much this time around, 8 years later). He loves the traditional courting and so do I - I put a lot of effort into the relationship both in terms of communication, doing things for him, taking care of him. He insists on paying most of the time, I always offer (with full sincerity) and if he won't let me I make sure that I do things for him as in buy theater tickets, buy him little gifts, prepare meals, etc. I have no interest in the "free meal" aspects of dating him (or anyone else in my past) - but he says he gets a lot of enjoyment out of planning dates and treating me. In short, I like being "the woman" in certain respects - for example, he carries my heavy packages -- and he likes being the man. This is how it works best and is most healthy for most of the women I know and most of the women I know are educated professionals who are treated as equals in the work place. To us, work place and romantic relationships can't be compared as to "equality" - apples and oranges. I have asked out men in the beginning - several times - a few times on first dates, a few times on second or third dates. Never turned into a relationship, likely because if they had been that into me, they would have asked me out first. Again, I am sure there are exceptions even though I don't know of any. And yes it would have been easier for me at times not to be sitting around waiting for a call from Mr. Wonderful and I am sure it would have been easier for the men who were nervous to make the first call or initiate plans -- some of it just doesn't seem very fair or balanced. More power to the people who want to change things and who refuse to follow this tradition. Maybe there will be change in this whole dating scene - who knows. It's not a battle I choose to fight and it's worked out fairly well for me.

That's awesome! Not what I am saying at all though. Sorry to repeat but it seems like there's a misunderstanding. My view is - as I mentioned in previous posts - that women should not do most of the pursuing in the beginning. That is, most of the asking out, planning etc for the first month or so. I also wouldn't advise being the first to ask out either but I think it's fine to ask a man out - but after that I would let him do most of the pursuing in the early stages. I do know of happy healthy relationships where the woman asked the man out on a date. I do not know of any where the woman did most of the pursuing in the beginning. And as with any rules there are exceptions.

Not sure what you mean by the ten years. I meant that I was following the rules for ten years prior to the book being published - not with the same guy, lol. I do not think the man should do the pursuing. I think he should do most of the pursuing in the beginning - typically the first month or so - until there is something more steady and it is more of a given - such that there is less "asking out" and more of an assumption that you'll be seeing each other Saturday nights. It may be outdated but right now I know of no happy healthy long term relationships where the woman did most of the pursuing in the beginning. I do think that if the woman is attracted to a more passive/non-assertive man and likes being the pursuer then by all means that could result in a very happy situation. I have never been attracted to men like that or been interested in being friends with men or women like that. I don't know any women who are really turned on/attracted by that but that doesn't mean they do not exist. It may be outdated for teenagers and women in their early 20's. In my experience, and I know many women in their mid-late 20's and up, nothing has changed.

I would not move in until you are fairly certain that you see yourself with him long term and potentially married. As far as his smoking, not sure where you live but if he is keeping drugs in the apartment and you are there you could be in trouble too. Also keep in mind that were you to get pregnant the drug use could negatively impact the health of your baby. I would discount all of his behavior while on drugs that you see as positive.

I think it is a euphemistic way of saying "I am not sure if I love you in a romantic way." It also could mean that that person likes the high of head over heels and makes a quick exit when that fades. What I would do if someone said that to me is treat it as a break up, begin the healing process, and move on. If he then decided he had made a mistake, he could contact me - I would not want to hear "now I know I am in love" but rather "I know I want to be with you and want to make this work" The "in love" part is too abstract/vague for me to understand as "I want to be in a committed relationship with you."

That's interesting - didn't realize you were having this discussion with a married man. Yes, of course you can read negatives into working out 3 times a week, reading to homeless children and keeping up with current events - just like you can read negatives into anything. To me, those things are far more of an indication of caring for oneself than being able to apply makeup and wear the latest feminine fashions. But that's just me.

I think there is a balance here. If you are meeting them on line and know no one they know, cannot google them to confirm the basics, just plan to meet in public, during the day, on familiar turf with an hour where at least one friend knows about your plan. And, no going in the same car for the first meeting. With those precautions that sounds safe enough to me. I wouldn't tell all my friends if that is their collective attitude, just one or two friends you can trust and who are supportive.