mike_chppr

Well, you are right, you never know until you try. I've said what I think and still continue to believe. If you fall hard you know where to come. If you don't then I'm happy for you. Remember to be aware of your feelings for him. You would love for the two of you to work out romantically, but you may be resenting him from witholding. You are forcing yourself to withold and limit contact which is the best way to go about congering up interest in the other person. It isn't patheticly pining for every bit of time and affection. However as long as you realize you are witholding from your true self, if things go south reflect on your decision. If he rises to the occaision and meets you where you can express your desires fully. Then that is a better place to be than I've ever been. So you are right I could be negative here and I did come accross as crass. Have a good new year mike_chppr

Mckenziegirl38, What is going on, I wanted to check up on you. How are you handling things, has he cracked or budged from his position or are you still locked in grieving. Thinking about you, mike_chppr

OK, I have a viewpoint on this. Crazyabout dogs seems very conservative and that is OK, but my question is.... How do prostitutes dress? Where is that line. Because a prostitute uses eye makeup and extentions does that delete those options from the rest of the world of a way to flaunt their beautiful eyes. I've seen ultra conservatism in Iraq. There were woman wearing thick black everything socks mittens headdresses eyelid covers, very baggy so that they could save themselves for their arranged future or current spouse or to be clean before God and not having been oogled. Even looking an Iraqi woman in the eyes can make her feel ashamed and guilty, especially from a fair skinned American. Sometimes with all that covering and just their eyes peering out they are attractive. I spent most of my tour deflecting any eye to eye contact or leering at women. I was trying to be very respectful of their culture. So that is the conservative side. I remember the comment made by one of my coworkers when Bush first got elected and how his wife wore these sweaters that swallowed up her neck. In his presidency she has been much more liberal as to showing off her aging wares. I guess the issue here is what is the most attractive thing about women. I think I read a poll in mens health magazine that said "Confidence" was the number one predictor of attractiveness. And I think that works in reverse as well. I know as my STBX began wearing the clothes that I wished she had our entire marriage she became insanely sexy. Unfortunately I didn't get to drink from that glass, but even though I knew we were over I still complemented her when she was showing cleavage 36D is worth showing off to the world. She isn't a beanpole, she is a beautiful curvy woman and I wish only the best for her down the road. I guess the thing that gets me is I see your relationship with her as a social status thing with you. If she is attracting other guys attention it makes you feel inferior as you cannot do the same with other girls in front of her. And attractive sexy people attract more sexy attractive people that are well, easy on the eyes and can be pleasant to be around. You may feel that if she dumps you then all that eye-candy goes away. If you treat her with respect all that eyecandy will come your way after you split. The thing isn't going the blame route... "She is wearing that to attract other men" or "She is wearing that to fit in." The way to approach this topic is to express your feelings. It can be something like this. "I love/like you immensely and I feel insecure around you. I feel jealous of other guys looking at you and that I cannot get the same attention. I realize as well that our relationship isn't going to be "the one" but these jealous feelings that I'm having are getting in the way of me being able to enjoy you and learn about life together. I don't expect you to change for me, for you to get my opinion about what you wear. I just want to vent my feelings and work through those, they are my issues, and the only way I can work through them is to tell you. I feel insecure and jealous. I'm relating it to you showing cleavage, but there is probably way more to it than that." Sounds like a deep conversation. maybe like something from television or on the OC. But seriously, expressing your feelings is the path to growth in relationships. It sounds like you are trying to confront them, but you are making it about her... Blame only leads to resentment and discontent, because you never really feed the bug inside of you by trying to get someone else to change. But if you go the feelings right you can experience new things. If you express discontent as I am sure she has as well it can make a breakup a positive experience with benefits from her associated eye-candy, but if you come accross as a blaming controlling emotional freak, then your doom will be certain as well as the possiblilities with her associates. I guess the other thing is how did you notice her, I'm sure she just didn't start exposing cleavage overnight. Some women are more comfortable with it at an earlier age, some women wait well into their 50s before they are comfortable with themselves. It is a confidence in her for sure, even though her reasoning is that it is what she has to do to be accepted is shallow, that is a reason and not necessarily how she feels. So she is blaming it on being socially accepted, and not feeling it as being attractive and sexy. She is doing it, but she isn't aware, and blaming it on acceptance is just like you blaming her for your insecurity. You are both at similar levels and coming clean with your insecurities and feelings are a way to mature. Feelings aren't always about crying. I don't know why guys seem to think that emotions mean crying, there is a time for that and sometimes it is in public. but there are a whole range of feelings and by expressing and accepting each one as you experience them or struggle with them is the way to truly know and understand yourself. How can you share yourself with someone else unless you know yourself completely. It is in these emotional experiences that knowing yourself comes about. You aren't being true to yourself or to her until you express your jealousy and insecurity.... what you are feeling, you are in a way lying by trying to manipulate her to fit you. Telling her that she is showing cleavage she will know conscious or not that it upsets you and she can show more to tick you off or show less to get closer. By you going with blame you have given her a power that she did not have before. And she can poke your buttons like no other human alive. You're young, learn from it, they don't teach this stuff in school. mike_chppr

I agree with radioheader, a therapist can only help. It is awkward because you have to stretch yourself and open up in a way that you cannot do in life, but you can do here on these boards. A therapist is an alternative way to practice interacting with others. When I was 19 I was pretty much where you are now. I became suicidal and checked in with the school counseling system. It happened to be free to students. It was probably the best thing I did. I swung through another bout of depression to a suicidal point in Graduate school. I've always gotten help when I started thinking down that road, and I can tell you that I am so glad that I reached out. Your friends and family probably know that you are going through tough times, but they don't know how to assist. A therapist has training. The third time that I swung into very deep depression was in coming home from Iraq. I self distructed in almost every area of my life, but by some stroke of the paintbrush I found myself in the office of a therapist again, and I can honestly say am I depressed, yes I am, but am I getting better on a month by month basis, or a week by week, or day by day. Month by Month is how I measure true progress. I don't know where you are at in life, but seriously people love you. They may not know how to express that in a way that gets through your synapses right now, but they truly and dearly love you. Your dad may seem really rejecting right know. But you have to look past that and fend for you, you are an adult. You don't have to be home by 10:00 or else. You can experiment with life and judge the outcome as healthy or not or forsee what might happen and decide if you want to try that path or not. You are responsible for you, your dad's critisism of therapy may be because he isn't the perfect cornerstone of the family and he is afraid to look into himself. Work on accepting him as imperfect and work on you. He still loves you, but he isn't the greatest man in the world and he isn't the worst. I can't express how much I feel you should go to be seen. If you still don't want to, Please go pick up this workbook. link removed Instead of laying on your bed read chapter one and chapter 2. they are short and won't take up too much time. What are a few hours to you when depressed? Feel it and then rewire your brain out of it. This book can do miracles, but I suppose if your dad doesn't believe in therapy, he probably doesn't have much hope for miracles either. Seek help. You will get better, you need to work on you day by day. PM me if you want to talk privately, I know what you are going through. I know what you are thinking "what is the point?" There is a point! There is something better out there! Don't stop the journey here, give yourself a chance to make it on your own. You can do it for you, not for your parents or anyone else, you can do it for you. Peace to you man.... hang in there. mike_chppr

Thanks for the acolades, but trust me. I couldn't have reached that deep 6 weeks ago. I think the story of the girl working things out with her alleged cheating mom was one of the best visions of a healthy relationship that I wish I had been able to do at that age. As far as this thread, I do have life experience and I have seen both sides. I've lived on the welfare system when we were no kidding dirt poor. I spent 6 weeks of my high school teenage years living in a women's crisis shelter, been in the military and seen guys have to pay child support for children that aren't theirs, but the thought they were and treated them as such until things seemed a little weird after the split and they got a paternity test. The court ruled in favor of the children so he has had to pay even though they are not his. He is the one specifically that skipped out on life. Doing odds and ends jobs for cash so there was no money to be taken from him living with friends, etc... Then I've seen guys in the Military with 4 children with 4 different women all with Child Support payments that consume 60% of his income and he is currently with another woman with one on the way. I advised him to get snipped. I've seen guys honestly trying to meet the courts requirement and living like abused puppies because they can't afford to move on. They can barely afford their rent after paying the court. As far as child support, I'm unsure how I feel. After all that was the random cause of my Dad's death. That is a part of why I got snipped before getting married. I didn't want to put any child through the horror that I have been through. I felt destined to make the same mistakes and reflecting on the relationship with my STBX. I put her through them instead of a child. But walking away from it all and taking a step back, I have grown tremendously in the last few months. I have no desire to become a therapist. I think in a lot of ways I can help people as I come accross them. I don't believe I have had all of the past hardships for nothing and some of the little quippy things that I've learned about "life's little interactions" have been amazing. I listen to others so differently now. Because I'm seeing their cues, verbal and nonverbal. I'm looking to pick them apart. Which is bad and good as I tend to pre-judge and catagorize, but I can also learn what is a healthy interaction and what isn't. They say every therapist got to where they were today by figuring out themselves. I believe that is true for about 70%, but the really fantastic ones chose this career path because this is what they have in their hearts naturally. It is kind of like me taking Massage Therapy Classes for me. Not for a career and I will become a good one at that, but the thing is there are people with a gift, they can pat you on the back and transfer loads of positive energy and you can feel their security. Those people like that are like the 30% of natural therapists. I appreciate the accolades once again. It just sounds so strange as I scored in the 25th percentile in the English Catagory of the GRE, the test you have to take for graduate school after you have an undergraduate degree. This means 75% of everyone who has ever taken the test has scored better than me. And you say I'm "articulate" Hah. I'm laughing in a good way. But the thing is, I have all this emotional growth and knowledge, and I'm able to look at others and see the path that they may not see. But in my own life, I'm drowning, depressed, anxious, hurting, and I'm learning how to reach out to people. I kind of tend to dump my life story out like a vomit, and people distance themselves from my negativity. Now I'm having to relearn how to have platonic relationships with women in my life, how do you select women for dates knowing that you are not attracted, but see something in their personality that you want to understand so you can incorperate that into your concept of who is "The One." I guess it is kind of like the book the "Sex Starved Marriage" OK... what does the guy do when the faucet is turned off and it isn't starving anymore it is a friggin famine. There are so many inclinations. (One night stand, rebound relationship) It is extraordinarily difficult for me not to evaluate (pre-judge) every woman that I am mildly attracted to for sexual potential... of all the things I've wanted from marriage but my STBX was unable to provide. But maybe that is the thing. That very well could be the baggage that I'm carrying with me. That is why I need to take a year to myself, but there is that line. A year in isolation is not appropriate either, and I see myself slipping into the same roles as I did as a kid. Lots of female platonic friends and very few male friends, but no one close. Most people can tell you who their best male and female friend is. I can't, other than my best female friend is my STBX, and my best male friend is a three way tie. How do I go about fostering male relationships. I don't like sports, I'm not much for hanging out at the bar, I'm either an extreme extrovert (vomit my personal life) or an extreme introvert (insecure in group settings). I know I need to figure out who I am. to work on me and a rebound relationship would just transfer the expectations and baggage from my marriage. A one night stand is against my values, and isn't safe I don't care what protection you use. I do know that I can't figure out who I am by not putting myself into emotional connections with others, Knowledge is one thing, but emotional experience is HUGE. I want to be able to break emotional experience up into little bite sized chunks, so I know what to work on this month or even this week to build up to a druel deluge of personal life details instead of a vomit. So I may have good ideas and advice, but where is mine? How do I see the light? How do I break life up into pleasant morsels of hurt and pleasure? I've never had the opportunity to take control and kind of let life do with me as it will, but now I want to plan ahead, find some goals and feel good about myself for achieving them and not crushed if I don't. I have ton's of baggage and it all feels like I carry it around and by sharing it with others It doesn't weight half the weight, now they cary the weight and mine doubles. Once again thanks for the accolades, they really REALLY mean a lot to me. mike_chppr

OK, I just got your reply today, somehow I lost this thread, but it is a very good one. I think it throws some of my own emotional growth out there, I could not have said something like this a month ago. I'd really like to know how your conversation went, how did you mix our approaches, what kind of mental process did you use to prepare, how did you initiate the conflict, what was the instantaneous and then the delayed reaction from your mother, how did you experience her reactions. What is the aftereffect, how much of this has your mother expressed to your dad? Does he know and how much. Because it is those interactions that help you to learn how to deal with real emotionally intense conflict later on in life. If you can experience them as a sort of inquisitive fly on the wall, that would be much better than going through the same thing on your own. Keep in mind your own values, which will become different from those of your parents. Some people form them while with their parents, but others form them way later in life. I'm so proud of you, this must have been huge to initiate. Glad I could help, mike_chppr

I might be a book worm, but I recommend the book by David Burns... I know it sounds cheesy, but it has helped me imensely in the last couple of weeks. It is link removed. It is basically a workbook that you write in and it makes you think of things in a similar style to the old phonics learn to read workbooks. I can feel myself like what Juliana said, "keep a sense of the potentiality of the future." I don't want to dump a book on you, but it can give you something to do to occupy your time instead of trying to pass out. I am also on sleep medication and antidepressants, and I can attest to the one to two month thing. If friends don't want to hear it, use your insurance to see a therapist. Yes it is there job, but they are there to see you succeed. Best of fortune, Mike_chppr

Just walk away. Make him identify himeself like wearing a red shirt holding a yellow napkin. If you don't like him, don't approach. Say you are going to wear blue and then wear pink. Come up with a codeword like I say bananas and he says apples and give each other a deadline, tell him If I don't show up in the first 20 minutes, I bailed. That is fair I think.

I say talk with the therapists and teachers about the boys behavior, just get written statments. You need to phrase everything you say in the "best interest of your children. Ask questions as small as if school supplies come up in your week do you pay or do I. He may be asking for week after week custody, but honestly, I don't think he will last two months. You might even ask the judge to do a trial, but to let them live consistently as they are now, but during the summer vacation do the week on week off and if it is working then you can continue to do it during the schoolyear. I'm sure of it, there is no way he can provide, the teachers will know just as yourself how you come through when things are awry and he doesn't. Also get a statement from his step mother if she is willing. Because in court a he said she wants and she said he wants, and he said she did and she said he didn't. The courts are very cautious about awarding everything to the mother these days. So you don't have to say anything, just get sworn statements from those people involved in your childrens lives. The therapist will most certainly have a say in this. She has the outside perspective, in fact if she feels that the child will be harmed by .... she has to report it. Make an appointment with just you and her to discuss what is going on. Yes, you will probably have to pay for it, but I'm certain it will be well worth it. She can probably help by redirecting your energy away from the money and towards the children. I have an idea of what he is doing. I've seen other guys do this as well. They get awarded some child support. They feel it is proposterous that they should have to pay that amount. So they quit or get fired from their job, file for unemployment and live on pennies until the spouse complains to the law as you have done or the courts get involved. He isn't taking cheap paying jobs for him... He's taking them to screw you. So now he has been able to show the court that he has an unreasonable burden and they have lowered the rate. That is fine, itemize your budget line by line on how you spend yours and his money as well as how you add things to the credit card in a pinch. You are sacrificing as well, document that, and show it to the courts and let them see how much financially and timewise you are putting into the kids and that is where they will follow. Don't say I need or the boys need, show them what you are doing and ask for suggestions on how you can do better than you are? This provides discourse. If you can take an assault by turning it back with a question you have eliminated almost all the energy of the assault. Insist that we come up with a workable plan and inquire about their ideas and discuss how this won't work because of that and so on. For example, I came back from Iraq and had to go through behavioral health. After waiting in line for an hour to see one of the therapists with multiple stations still to go, I got in and set down with the counselor. He asked me if I was married.. I said Yes. He asked if I was still going to be married... I said Yes and my marriage I felt was stronger than it was before I had left. He said it says here on the sheet that you have seen dead civilians, and soldiers... How do you feel about that. [Here it is....] I reply with how do you think I should feel about that? Now he has to put himself in my shoes and he stamped my paperwork and I was out of there. 2 minutes. Only about 40 days later did the intense PTSD stuff kick in, but I did the right thing for the time. But you see the transition, how I opened communication by phrasing it back to him in the form of a question. Here is what I have done, and you are critisizing me about this, I would like your solution... You aren't doing it accusatory, but really listening, not necessairliy to their words or suggestions but try to feel their emotion at the moment and have mercy on them. When you are able to feel that your ex is trying to screw you and you see his anticipatory emotion, feel your sadness for him that he has to go through it this way. Same with the judge, when you turn the question around on her, feel her reflect on what she would do. But emotionally listen, not fake, not like you're sarcastically predicting your doom, but really want to hear what they have to say. You will make it through this. The other thing to touch on is what if one of you moves to another state for a better job or career or relationship etc... What happens to the week on week off system. If you are in Northern VA, I feel for you. If you are getting pummeled, I'd pack up and move to somewhere less economically intense. You can make it through this either way. Everyday you wake up, tell yourself that you will be a good person, and that you will pursue what makes you and your children happy both today and in the future. The obedience thing when they get back from his house... I'm sure this is normal. I had a discussion with my mother about it. I didn't percieve our (my brother and my) actions as being that out of the ordinary, but I remember being scolded for how undiciplined we were for coming back from our dads. We did every other weekend and then two weeks in the summer until we moved out of the state. My mom says we were. I guess I think of it as an attachment theory issue. Get back to the root of what your kids need. It isn't enough to discuss the cool things they did when they were with dad. Is what is important is to discuss how much you missed them and give them that "chakra-like" hug that transfers your loving energy into them until they relax. If you get them back focusing on your ex's negative energy and he will do things to poke at you. Spouses know how to do this kind of stuff. But you need not to take the higher ground but to defer those emotions for the higher priority ones like seeing your children back safely. Feel the love and excitement of the reunion and not the avoidance of not wanting to fake your true feelings about your ex in front of your kids. Trust me, they know how tense things are. It isn't just what you say, but your body language and tone of voice, they are picking up the picture just fine with the nonverbal clues as to what is going on. I think this is about all I have to say. I've thrown a lot of things out there, but the main ones are. Outside sworn statements, not from friends, but from unbiased sources. Turn assaults into reverse questions with an attitude of connection and listening. Make an appointment with your oldest's therapist alone without having him/her (I forgot the gender) along. Positive energy with your kids. If you think the world is going to crumble then you will act in ways to make it crumble. I pieced together a lot of negative self-talk from your posts. I'm reading "The Feeling Good Hanbook" by David Burns. It has helped me to see the irrationality in some of my own negative self talk. I can see a lot of fortune-telling, all or nothing thinking, and emotional reasoning. Statements like "I have a college degree, this shouldn't be happening" or worrying about the judge screwing you over again. Child support and Custody are two separate issues. Don't place them in the same box. If you do you will look like a woman trying to drain him for everything he has. OK I'm done rambling.

Well I'm in the thick of it right now. I don't know if it is because everything is so amicable, or I have had a ton of personal growth reaching way back into my childhood, but I wouldn't change it. I imagine a day in the future finding someone who can meet my needs and me theirs. That I can have an appreciation for it, because I have a better idea of who I am and what my needs are. Yes.... I would do it all over again. But one of my problems is that I don't think I can be the dumper. If things are going awry, I would want to work on them rather than hurt someone else. I need to live more in the moment and not make these predictions. How about I decide that when I get there! If I could do things differently, I only wish that I was more reflective of my self during the process, so I could remember more of my emotions thoughts, and hangups. Not to change them, but to accept them for who I was "in the moment." mike_chppr

Well, I can see why you are hesitant to get rid of the stuff. Here is what I say, this person has been a part of your life. Keep one photo of the two of you happy. Scan everything else onto a disk and put it with your computer stuff. then throw everything away except that one photo. Later on down the road if you want to reflect you have it on CD or an external hard drive. I'm going through a similar thing right now. I have all the cards and clever things I did for my STBX when we were dating and married. At first I thought I should keep these so that I can reuse them to think of clever things to say when I meet someone else. But then I realized that I'm not damaged goods and when the time comes I will think of something clever especially tailored for that person. So all the cards and saved stuff. I'm throwing away. All the bills and taxes and other paperwork from our relationship, I'm scanning and giving her an external hard drive with all the information on it. I want to start over, and that includes getting rid of the clutter. All the papers in my file cabnit are clutter, that I have to tackle and trow it away. I want to move on, and tackling a two drawer plus file system with a scanner and a shredder just might be the distractive ticket. How to move on. I'm not sure... I know I feel very impulsive to seek new possible non-platonic relationships. I have a three month timeline in my head, but It isn't realistic, not that I can't do it, it is more that I need to be comfortable with me first. Throwing away the past is important, but it also important to be able to reflect and know where you came from. Best of luck mike_chppr

OK, bust his bubble, call the 17 year olds parents and let them know the scoop. Or if you think they are already knocking boots, call the police to report statuatory rape. Or if you know where he hides his drugs. Call the police and tell them where they are, especially if the 17 year old is in the car with him. I say this, because I'm sneaky and vindictive in my own way. Really, don't do any of it, take time off for you. It is amazing what a week away will do. If you can take a week off work and get away, then do it! Do your parents know the whole story? It seems like him going to their place he is trying to pit them against their own flesh and blood... That is extremely controling... He also knows how to push your buttons. You have known each other for a while, you have let him in your inner emotional circle. One poster above says how he must really make his lovable side good because his cruel side is so intense. No children, a stable job, foxgurl... plan your future. Look into going to college, freeing yourself, I know your parents and friends are in your community, but you wits and emotional experience will get you through the academic turmoil. What everyone else says is correct, distract yourself. This webboard is good, but it is only half a distraction. Find a hobby, with your non-drug supporting income, take a yoga class or join a community sports league or go to a gym. Do things for you. I agree with the platonic friends thing, although I am unsure if I can live by that policy. Figure out what you need to do to make you a better person. Don't think of yourself as a failure in marriage, you have a lot to offer and in some ways too much to offer... taking cigs to work for him at 3am.... Give me a break. I know what you are going through. My step-dad used to make my mom get up at 3am to fix him a full breakfast before he left for his cow-manuer shoveling job at 4am. You deserve better, way better. If your work covers you for insurance, use it to see a therapist, not for "Marriage Counseling" because most marriages don't cover that. Say depression, or generalized anxiety, or paranoia anything to get in to see a professional counselor and it be covered by insurance. A professional can assist you in making huge progress towards finding out who YOU are. You have defined your life for how you serve him. Now switch the roles and figure out how to serve yourself. Forgive yourself for putting up with his nonsense and move on. Come up with a 1 year or a 5 year plan. Grasp an idea of who you can be. See if your job can transfer you to another town. Start over.... Hope this helps... it may just be rambling... mike_chppr

Maybe he has a medical issue like cancer and he doesn't want to be a drag on the peppyness the two of you have. Has he had any medical appointments lately? Just a thought, while we are brainstorming here....

To answer your question this link helped me a lot, a sort of knowing where you are at. link removed Here is a link that I plan on using to compare someone I'm considering delving deeper in a relationship with. It is male oriented, but I think relevant link removed

I'm on with the PI recomendation, If he has time to go drink with a friend from work he has time for an affair. Likewise he could be using his annual leave during the day instead of cashing it away for family vacations. If he isn't on the clock, he can more than likely hide it during his lunch hour. There will be evidence somewhere and a PI can get to the bottom of it, he can track the vehicle, cell phone calls, bank statements, individual credit reports (for that secret creditcard) check the internet log for secret email accounts and messages. In my situation I'm fairly sure my wife is cheating/cheated on me. We are splitting amicably and fair. We will actually be good friends, and if she comes out in the next few weeks now that I have moved out with a boyfriend or girlfriend, even though she has denied it very vehemently. I'm like... it will hurt, but who cares, I'm starting up my dating life in the next three months or so, I have an opportunity to discover who I am. I won't lie, we both lost a lot of weight in the turmoil of coming to terms. But if he wants to go. You can't grovel for his affection without looking pathetic. He may deny any exterior relationship, but if you drop the line that you are going to a doctor to get checked out for STDs you can gage his reaction. Just say, "I want to believe you are telling the truth, but I feel cheated on and need to make sure that I take care of myself." You are in a good position. Many women have charted these waters sucessfully before you and they are doing it right now. This is a grieving process, think of how you would feel if he had suddenly passed away. These are the same types of intense feelings you will feel now. But you will make it. I cried for weeks over my situation. I cried everywhere, work, bathroom, bus, bus stop, my car every room of the house, but mainly on my dog. I don't think a trial separation is a bad idea. But come up with a way to split the assets now as if he is never coming back. Find a way that will make both of you feel a little taken advantage of. My wife and I have done this and I've had a healthy result. If you are well taken care of physically and you can pull off lingerie with no children there will be some awesome men pining for your attention in no time. Discover yourself, and realize that you can do this. Do the whole Rosa Parks thing and sit on that bus, stand up for yourself, realize this is his decision and you can't blame him and be incredibly bitter, work through the stages of grief and loss, because 20 years of relationship is a huge loss. There will be emptiness and panic and inabilty to breath and just wanting the pain to stop. I would very much recommend seing a therapist right now as well. They can make you think of things that you wouldn't come up with as quickly on your own. You can also bounce ideas off them to see if your motives are healthy defense mechanisms or not (i.e. blaming and many others). Grasp that your future isn't what you thought it would be. You can't hang onto him. If he wants to go... You don't want to spend the rest of your life with someone who doesn't really want to be with you. There could be a variety of reasons for him skipping out on the responsibility. Divorce/Separation counseling could be an option for the two of you as well. Just to ensure that you get closure with one another. There is a reason, that may not be apparent right now, but ultimately he has not been being true to who he really is or he would be working this out with you in the picture. I'm rambling, but ultimately get the PI and get some sanity... I know you wouldn't want to know, but protect yourself, your assets, and work with a counselor to deal with any news in an appropriate manner. Peace be with you, mike_chppr

doyathink, I appreciate your comments it makes me feel a little less pressured on the negative self talk that no one will want to be with me. Sometimes it is hard to believe those things my STBX is telling me that I have a lot to work with and that I'll be hooked up in no time. i.e. I'm slightly above average attractiveness, I have a stable income and career, and I'm fixed (no risk of pregnancy). But I feel distrustful of what she tells me right now and doubt myself a lot. blender, I agree that you cannot separate emotions from sexual experience. I have read lots of sex books while I was married, I figured obtaining all this knowledge would improve our nonexistant sex lives. But Knowledge cannot replace emotional experience. I was so anxious that I couldn't experience the emotions, plus I couldn't mind read either. She had an expectation that I should "know" when she wanted to make love, that I should "know" how she wanted to be touched and in what sequence. Those expectations really kind of raised my anxiety to insane levels and I'm still anxious that the next person may have those same expectations. I'm also worried of feeling like I'm cheating. We have both discussed that even though we are separated it is a state thing, we are already divorced emotionally and in our heads. I also kind of don't want to stew over this issue for the next 6 months of mandatory separation from the state of virginia. I want to move on, and part of that is developing relationships with others. elithepi, I'm not looking for one night stands. I'm looking for relationships. I think the manwhore word may be a little too intense. I'm looking to hook up, but I'm looking to build somewhat of a relationship first, I'm trying to set boundaries. So one-night-stand is definitely crossing a boundary that is unacceptable to me. I guess the question is how long should you know her before getting physically involved? I have no idea what the current American customs are, is there a third date rule, etc... I don't even know what first second and third bases are, although I'm fairly sure about what a home run is. The other thing is that I guess love and trust come from keeping in mind that I may end up spending the rest of my life with this person. And that adds way too much pressure to me. I would like to be on the path of several long term relationships and splits than push the marriage issue again like I did with my STBX. Boundaries in this issue are not easily set. Thanks for your comments, mike_chppr

OK, so I'm moved into my new apartment. unpacking boxes, and one of the huge issues for me an my wife was sexual inexperience on my part. So I guess is what I'm trying to say is I want to taste a variety of sexual flavors. I tend to agree with the concept that after a divorce your idea of relationships is tainted, like you want to fall in love in a sort of "open relationship" kind of way. How do you start dating/sexual relationships when you know they aren't going to be long term. My STBX was able to date lots of people i dated maybe two prior to her and it was more of a friends thing. She was my first sexual experience, and I married her. I wouldn't take that back, as she has really helped me grow as a person. But now I want to taste life. It is conflictual with my Judeo-Christian ethics, but how do I set boundaries. Sex is and will be availabe with lots, little, or no work on my part. Obviously protection is of concern. Should I go get tested for STDs every three months and have a certificate as well as expect the same from my partner(s). I didn't have sex when I was younger, not because of religious reasons, but because it scared the hell out of me watching my dad die of HIV. I'm realizing the venues that I have of meeting potential partners and there are a lot of possibilities of "sowing my wild oats" I don't have to worry about pregnancy as I'm snip-snipped, STDs and emotional baggage of living this type of lifestyle are my only concerns. How have others set boundaries in tasting the flavors of life. I'm not into the idea of one night stands. Maybe I'll consider on the third or fourth date rule. I'm not ready to start this tomorrow or next week, I just need to establish boundaries, so that when the moment of truth arives, I know what I will and will not do. I have to find a balance of protection, life experience, and emotional baggage. I'm struggling with this a lot lately. It isn't just getting back on the horse, it is more like riding it for the first time. "Hey, I know you want to have sex with me, but to be honest I'm probably a bad lay, I've only been with one other person for the last 6 years and no one prior to that." That sounds like I'm "fortune-telling" a sort of negative self talk, I want to enjoy the moments without feeling inferior. Comments interjections questions, or Criticisims encouraged, Mike_chppr

I tend to agree with blender on this one. I know the turmoil you are in, just not as intense. When I was in high school my typing teachers husband was having an affair with my mom's best friend. I knew all about this while in her class and said noting. It was a small community town in TX, so once the cat was out of the bag, I got a B in her class. My HS record was forever tainted. I blame it on knowing about that relationship, but who knows maybe I deserved it. I don't think it hurts to talk with your mom about it. I definitly don't think it is in your best interest to tie yourself into either telling your dad or forcing your mother to tell your dad. You might have overheard the one side of a conversation. I've heard my wife talk with girlfriends on the phone and I'd swear it sounded intimately kinky from the other end. Check her cell phone and sure enough it was one of her girlfriends, I hit redial just to check. This was years ago not even dealing with my current situation. Lets see ways of talking with your mother. 1) Indirect Method "Mom, There is something really bothering me regarding you, and I feel that I cannot talk to a school counselor, is there any way we can arrange for me to see a counselor outside the school system? I don't want to hurt you and I don't want to confirm or deny my feelings I just need someone else as a sounding board right now." 2) Direct Method "Mom, when you get a moment I'd like to go somewhere where just me and you can talk. Can we set up a time. I like to talk this evening", as there is a backstop. And the two of you cannot fume with one another for the whole day, but you get to sleep on the results. 3) Indirect/Direct Method Write down what you feel and what you heard to make you feel that way. Word this so that you never appear "blaming" but this is a discussion about how you feel. Things like empathy for your dad hurt regarding the feelings of loss that your mother isn't living at the moral standard that she had raised the family to be. You feel frustrated that there is no one to talk to. Hand her the letter when you are off to school and tell here that this is important to you and you would like to discuss it privately later, So your mom can internalize how whatever is going on is impacting you. The next thing is, you are the oldest, I am as well, many times it feels that you are the one in charge of everyone else. Especially your younger siblings. Look at all the possible outcomes of you bringing this out in the open. How might they be hurt, how might they blame you for ruining thier parents and their lives? These are the types of things to bounce off a counselor. Family Secrets. I have had to hold them in for a long time. My dad left my mom when we were young, no explanation, he just up and left. Well, come to find out he was having homosexual relationships outside of marriage and decided that he could not drag his family through this. After time, my mother found out and was disturbed that he didn't feel open enough to tell her. Well all is forgotten and we have a stepdad that is incredibly emotionally abusive. We moved 21 times by the time I was 18. for the better job, the better rental house the truck route, more than likely (his mistress was about ready to expose him so... poof we up and moved.) During this time, the state of TX arrested my real dad and threw him in jail for not paying child support. My mom had to file for welfare and this was part of the process. Well he was arrested at his business in OK and extradited to TX. In jail he was raped and left with the lovely gift of HIV. He died when I was 18. And this is when everything came out in the open. We were told that it was HIV and later on that he was gay and the reasons for it. (childhood molestations as an "initiation" from the older boys to the younger boys while on camping trips with the Boy Scouts.) He tried to live a normal life with the wife and kids, but that initial imprint was there already. He fought it as a part of who he was and finally gave into his impulses, to really live who he was inside. So I still haven't told my mom that she basically caused the death of my dad. I'm waiting for my grandmother to pass away before I tell my mom. I don't want her over there groveling for forgiveness in some super psychotic manner when my Grandmother doesn't want to bring up the hurts, memories and anger that she has towards my mom. So Yes I have to keep one of those huge secrets and I know what it is like. How have I dealt with it over the years. Unadulterated furious anger towards my mother for the last 12 years. All I could see is she was the one who killed my dad. I put her into the evil mother bucket and left her there, whereas in childhood I put her into the perfect mother bucket and never rocked the boat in the family dynamic. But twelve years of anger has destroyed my life, my relationships with others and with myself. How did I get over it, well I'm still not, but I'm viewing the bucket as the same one, the evil mother and the perfect mother are in the same bucket, it is just that over time you realize that people are human. She was scared, and boxed herself in to make the decisions that were best for her. My dad wasn't sending child support, because he didn't know the new address as we had moved so many times. But my mom was also a fantastic giver to the community, helping others with drug addictions and detox to counseling and alowing hurting people to spend the night on the couch when they had no where to go. So I have had to come to the conclusiong that the good and the bad are in the same bucket, a sort of yin and yang connectedness. So I guess the important thing for you to think about is can you forgive. Can you forgive yourself for holding in the secret even for as long as you have. Can you forgive your mother for allegedly cheating (emotional, cyber, physical, or otherwise) with another human. Can you realize that she is still the same loving mother who has cared for the family home for all these years as well as shown each of you her immense love for you. Can you also realize that she is capable of hurting herself and everyone else, but despite that human flaw there is still a drape of love in the background. Infidelity coming out into the open usually terminates a relationship. Sometimes adults know about it, (such as your father knowing about your mother) but they are staying together "for the kids." Your parents have problems just like everyone else. They have inate needs just like everyone else. Even though your mother is allegedly cheating, there are reasons for it that directly relate to hurts and miscommunications from your father. And if it is true your mother is having an affair, the things that your father does to your mother probably exacerbates this "need" in her. I think the best place for these things to come out is in Family Counseling. You can't force your mom to tell your dad and you may alieanate your family by bringing the whole thing up. I also feel like your apprehensiveness to discuss these feelings with your mother has something to do with the interactions that the whole family has with her. Protect her feelings, don't rock the boat, all interactions have to be mutedly pleasant. This can be an enormous test of growth between you and her that will carry you through other relationships in life. To realize that something horrible is going on and you are concerned, you want to know, but then you really don't. Think about your future, your best friends spouse is fooling around. If you tell them you will probably loose your best friend. The nice thing about this is it gives you a way to experience that in the environment of unconditional love that parents have for their children. It will help you to cope and deal in a more mature manner rather than exploding into an emotional tyrade at the dinner table... i.e. "Dad I heard mom on the phone, and I'm pretty shure she is having an affair.... Mom what do you have to say about it?..... (akward silence merging into explosive anger) I don't recommend that method. Ulitmately, talk with your mother. Step1 Reaffirm your mothers love for you. "Mom, do you love me?" Step2 Discuss your feelings regarding how you feel without blaming, it is OK to write notes to bring with you so that you don't miss anything. The stratagy mentioned above would probably work. Step3 Allow your mother time to empathize what is going on in you. (This may not happen in the course of the same conversation.) Ultimately your mother needs to feel your pains, hurts and insecurities. Step4 Bring it back up as to how she thinks you should cope with your pains, hurts, and insecurietes in a healthy manner. Step5 Raffirm her love for you and express your love for her and your father back. Note, if this alleged affair is true or not, your mother and you will go through a grieving process. Grieving what you thought was true to be incorrect. Your mom thinks noone knows, or your mom thinks that everyone is experiencing her as the good mother with no conflict. You could be grieving the concept of not being able to express your feelings to your mother, mostly out of fear. So if we go through grieving lets look at the process. 1. Denial. "No my mom can't be having an affair" / "I'm not in another relationship, I love your father and nothing will ever come between the two of us!" 2. Anger. "I'm mad at my mom, she isn't who I thought she was, this is beyond pathetic and hurtful" / "What the hell is my daughter thinking is she is trying to destroy our lives." 3. Ambivalence. "Why would my mom do this? Why our family? "This can't be happening to us." / "Why would she think such things?" "How could she have heard that conversation?" "What is my relationship really like with my husband, why would anything like this happen?" 4. Acceptance. "I don't like what my perception is of my mom, but I recognize that she loves me unconditionally." I'm not sure if it is true to not, but I still love her and she can make her own decisions in life. If she is, then there needs to be a discussion about protecting your dad from STDs with your mom not your dad. This makes it more real to your mom what she is doing to your dad. If she is not really having one, then chalk it up to the glories of communication and allowing your hurt feelings to be known in an appropriate and healthy manner. If you box in your anger, you box in you love as well. So by getting this out in the open irregardless of the truth you cross the hurdle of being able to express yourself, and open the pathways to how angry you can be as well as loving at the same time. The more intense you feel the anger, the more intensely you can feel the love as well. Your mom doesn't own you an explanation, it may be a part of her humanity that she can't fess up. This is why you are expressing your feelings and how you feel and not blaming her. Blame is giong to kill you emotionally down the road. I think a counsleor would help, but it may take a week or more to get an appointment. You may very well boil over before that point. So keep things in perspective, don't blame, and express your feelings. You'll get through this, this is a hurdle that will help you many times over later in life, especially regarding trust and openness with those that you love. Let us know if you have any additional questions or what your final decision is on how you resolve your hurts and disappointments. Happy New Year, mike_chppr

If you have any shot shell casings from his gun lying around the house you can give them to police. Many times this is all they need for probable cause. Even if you have an unshot one of the specific caliber and the neighbors suspicions that can be enough. You don't have to give them to the police. Just set them on the porch and have the neighbor call to say that evidence is in open sight. No report nothing. But you should not be in fear. That is for dang sure. mike_chppr

Soontobeex, I found an article that kind of deals with what you are going through at Best Life Magazine. link removed and link removed Hope this helps mike_chppr

Well, I'd check into mediation services. She wants out, so maybe you can help her work through it, if you do it correctly both of you should feel a little taken advantage of. The only thing is, she possibly sees it as her way or the highway, so she may take you for anything she can get, and by the sounds of it she may milk you with alimony and such. I would seek legal counsel. But see several different people, you may talk to one or two and all they can see is dollar signs instead of people. Best of luck to you. Net worth is definitely half as far as investments. I sold all of our joint investments today, This way we have a firm dollar amount to split and the taxes are done as a married couple. As far as retirement accounts, we tallyed the both of ours together and divided by two. Then I can get a legal order to transfer my money from my 401K to her 401K with a marginal transfer fee and no taxes. Best of luck to you

I second survivor3's post. [by] filing for divorce, you ... [will regain EVERYONE'S respect back (your family, his family, your friends, everyone), most importantly your own self dignity and respect]. Dont TELL him that. SHOW him. How can he respect you if you are allowing him to treat you this way? [You have to do this for YOU, to erase the anxiety and doubt for the future, to actualize your own self-worth, to feel alive/emboldened/in control] But doing all these things for YOU, recognize that you aren't leaving for him and to earn his respect. YOU are leaving, because he violated you, he put your life at risk, by sleeping around with the skank, he exposed your body to an enormous array of sexual diseases, infections, and disorders. He effectively shared the skank with you. He made the choice of your safety without informing you whatsoever. You have no idea of the duration or if the skank is the only one. He has wontonly threw around your emotions and your respect like garbage that keeps landing back on his porch. Take some time, internalize how he could have ended your life, they don't refer to her as a skank for nothing! Make an appointment with a doctor to be checked for STDs. Feel the fear in going to this appointment, even if you don't think you have anything, go get checked! I'm not saying this to scare you, or to make you feel any more pain than you already do. I'm telling you this so that you can have a reference of how he has put your life and personal physical safety in his hands. This will make those tempting calls and dreams of the future less likely. Grieve your loss. This process isn't short. Denial, (you can deny what he did and how he put your life at risk), Anger, (you can be angry if not rageful at him), Ambivalence, (why me... blaming yourself entirely... this isn't happening), Acceptance, (knowing what you need to do for you). You are experiencing a loss. A loss of your expectation on your future lives together. A loss of the trust that you thought you had, a loss of self respect. Infidelity is inconceivably cruel, demeaning, and damaging, internalize it, feel the pain, agony and grief. Internalize the root cause and maximize positive future experiences for YOU. YOU have to live with YOU until the last day! There is a certain amount of communication that has to happen to dissolve a relationship. I recommend going to separation/divorce counseling together, if not you going to counseling by yourself, I think you might be doing that already, but I've read so many posts I can't remember who is and who isn't unless it is the last post I read. OK, I basically wanted to say I concur with survivor3's post. Go pamper yourself... you deserve it. Mike_chppr

Wow, I'm finally caught up. She seems wack, but your posts also seem a bit whack too. I see yourself in me a bit, read really really fast.... what do i do, what do i do to get her to have sex with me, how do i touch her, what do i do, can i try this.... op doesn't work can i try that... op doesn't work what do i do, what do i do to get her to have sex with me, how do i touch her, what do i do, can i try this.... op doesn't work can i try that... op doesn't work So I see you as anxious attachment and her as avoident attachment, but moreso than me and my wifex. See this website to start seeing what I mean by attachment. This isn't all bad, as it has partly brought you the success that you have, and also the complete avoidance of the possibility of infidelity. link removed I don't have children, but similar to you seeing and saying how she and her mother are twins. You are playing the role very simliar to that which her dad played with her mom. It is tranferred to you in a way that is extremely avoidant. She is trying to prove her childhood model to herself. But she is holding the carrot preying on your childhood as well. Like the concept of her saying you left me just like your father.... yada, yada. You have issues and she has issues, you both are probably at a boiling point and really just want to know who you really are, alone, by yourself not wrapped up in the drama of one another. Yea she is sexy. Yea you would love to do it with the lights on. Yea you would just like to do it period. But she is so critical, you can't do it perfect, you can't please her. You have to magically know how to touch her right to be putty in your hands. But she won't show you how she won't let you in. She wants you to discover it WITH NO FEEDBACK! And you crave her affection. you want her to give it to you... who you kidding she hasn't even discovered herself. back to the children. They are old enough to know what is going on. Here is the stinger. Do you want them to grow into relationships that mimic you and your wife? Because she and her mom are twins. History tends to repeat itself. Do you want your children to prey on others with the perfection and intensity that your wife does. Or live a successful, but emotionally unfulfilling life such as yourself. They NEED a different model. otherwise they are likely to spend the rest of their lives trying to prove that the model of your relaionship is the way things have to be. By you respectfully bowing out and expressing the reasons to your children it gives them hope even though you don't do it verbally. They know you are sleeping in another room, what does that tell them, "when they get in an argument with their significant other they can kick him/her in the doghouse." That they can throw stuff and it be OK. I don't have much hope for your marriage. How long are you willing to play tug of war with no team on the other side. The mud is caked on good and you still keep pulling where even if they tried to play they would have to crawl through the mudpit and try to catch you. Without having hope for your marriage, I offer a recomendation (Do a trial separation, during this trial you and the kids and her will go to counseling together to help with the turbulence). Because you getting another place, even though you are supporting her and the kids is a huge shift in the model that your children have experience their whole lives. Separation counseling would be an asset. It may bring her to the table, "look hun I agree we should separate, we dang near are already with me sleeping in another room, but we should do family counseling for the kids. To help them understand that it is not them, etc... etc..." Sell it as for the kids, Because in the end you need to do what is best for them. They deserve it, just like you deserve to experience real love. I need to go to sleep, Mike_chppr

Well the days of reconing are upon us. I've signed the lease for my apartment. I pick up the keys tomorrow. We just got back from our 7 days in California with her parents. I love her parents so much and it really hurts them that we are going through with this. I had several discussions with her dad about how I was coping and moving on. Her parents are holding out for the idea that even after a separation somewhere down the road we will end up getting back together. The way her parents treated me this weekend was so foreign to the way that my family would treat my wifex. They didn't have it out for me. I hadn't ruined their or my wifex's life. They are going to loan us the money to cover the gap until we could sell the house and even had some suggestions on ways to complete the items on the Real Estate Agents "Things to do list." It was very relaxing and once I knew where her dad stood by our conversations most of my anxieties were relieved. Her Mom cried when she opened my gift and what I had written on the card. Her Mom is very stern with very little expressive emotion, so I about lost it as well, but we maintained the "enjoying each others company" without really talking about the "white elephant" that this would quite likely be the last time they see us together or at least at their house. When they come to see my wifex I am assured to be in their plans. They still want to see their grand-doggy. So December 31st is the mark. Finances. We are tallying up all the accounts. Her Roth IRA My Roth IRA My work Retirement Account Her work Retirement Account Our Joint investment account Our Bank Account Then we are paying off my computer and the six thousand dollar couch. determining what in the last months credit card statement was joint or separated. And paying off the joint things with what is in the accounts. Now we have a dollar value and it gets cut in half. So being that my Roth IRA is higher, and my work retirement account is higher I'll have to transfer some monies. As far as the joint stock account it will cost me around $200 to sell all of our symbols. That is a price I'm willing to take so that it isn't dragging over our heads. Also I can repurchase what I want. So this is a reallocation of sorts or I can have liquid cash to purchase things like a new bedroom set, vacuum cleaner, etc... On the drive home. She asked me if I was taking any of the kitchen stuff. I said just enough to get by and she decided we needed to discuss. I said I didn't want her to come home and feel robbed and that I would like to discuss what I am taking on Thursday and Friday evenings. But she is working on Thursday and Friday she isn't coming home as I am moving out on Saturday and she doesn't want to be around for any of my coworkers "looks" I don't blame her and I don't want her to be exposed to their stinging looks either. So when in the heck are we going to get together. I mentioned the 1st we could meet up before we link up with some mutual friends for dinner. I said maybe that morning we could go through the things that we need to do together. I got a sharp, I won't be in that morning! In my mind I felt the dejection coming on. In one sense she wants me out of the house... "Your going to call before you come over right?" ... "What if meeting on one of your 'weekends off' isn't good for me and I don't want you coming over?" I'm like damn, I own the house too. But if you don't want me coming over I won't come over! We have to arrange to fix the things on the house to get it ready to sell in spring right? is how I feel. We have to work together on separating the bills and the taxes and office supplies and whatever other piles we have sitting around. It is like she wants a clean cut. But then, wants to trail me along on finishing some of the things we need to do to sort out our lives. Because there are things that I'm not willing to take without sifting it through with her. After it is taken "possession is 9/10s of the law." I told her how I felt about her response about not beeing there in the morning. I told her I still feel dejected and this hurts. She was like you need to accept..... something or other. I told her "the conversation was over" and she continued to try to get me to accept her apology for the sharpness of her I won't be available that morning statment. When she tried to tell that I had to accept... I cut her off with "I gives a Frick" except I didn't use frick. I told her I didn't care I don't fricking care. I should have said I don't have to accept Spit. But she taken aback by me dropping the F bomb in the conversation. and then spilling into how dejected and hurt I feel, we went about 5 miles of silence with tears streaming down my faces she asked if I wanted a tissue. I said No. after a while we had a more rational discussion about what to take and what to leave for the rest of the trip home from the airport. For my own mental health I need to walk away from this feeling like everything was out in the open exposed and fair. Especially regarding finances. I feel a bit swindled with the arrangement of the "stuff." but I really want to start over. I mean if I take the vacuum she has to buy a new one, if I take the microwave she has to buy a new one. I don't want stuff hanging around my new place reminding me of "taking it so I don't feel swindled." I feel that a better perspective is to walk away from it all. To leave all the things from my teens and twenties and start new. Figure out what I like what "My" style really is. I've settled on a bedroom furniture set. I have a lot of focus on setting up my bedroom. I really need it to be a sleep and get dressed only kind of thing. No magazines, no books, no tv, Just me and the alarm clock. I only go in there when it is bedtime and I come out to all the junk it isn't sitting around reminding me that it needs to be finished. So I'm buying blackout curtains, chocolate paint for the walls replacing the light fixture in the apartment with something more modern and installing a timed dimmer. Yes it is my apartment, but sleep is critical to managing the PTSD stressors, even if I have nightmares I still need to go to sleep. Once the bedroom is set up then I can focus on the living room and kitchen. That is where I'm at right now. I don't want a messy cluttered bachelors pad, but I don't want a shag pad either. So my life as I know it is being put into boxes this is a hurtful process, it is going to be, but in the next few weeks I have the opportunity for a complete fresh start. So I think I will order my new bed from Select Comfort tomorrow as well. It'll arrive in about two weeks having that fresh, new "plastic airbed smell." Have a Happy New Year Everyone. and if someone wants to get chatty about what I've said or what is going on, I'd be more than pleased to see your posts. Peace, Mike_chppr

prying into the card is about 90/10 now I'm 90% in control of my actions. but 10% of me wants to race over and look. Thursday night we met at a Steakhouse after work. We had decided on Wednesday night that we would eat out together, mind you she has been gone from Thursday of last week all the way up until Tuesday night. And Wednesday we discussed the January 1st cutoff of the finances and a few other things. She went to bed. Here is the thing. I was mad at her. I had gotten these fantastic responses to our dog getting his CGC from other friends and her text message was like "so you'll be home soon" When I got home her door was closed and she was asleep. I went to bed with excitement and actually couldn't sleep Tuesday night at all. Then on Wednesday night I did go to be earlier than usual as Wed was a horribly bad day. I wanted to tell her that I was frustrated with her response, but I felt that it would hurt her feelings. When she closed the door I stewed in anguish over it. I should have told her. I'm realizing this is part of our history and I'm reliving it. Expectations and feelings are off the table. I need to say something for me, in person. Face my fear and drive on. So when we sat at the table at the steakhouse, I blurted out before we had our drinks, that I was upset with her. I told her what I had expected and that she had let me down. I told her why I'm telling her, and then we had that akward silence. I felt her pain for the first time and said "I'm sorry I hurt you." She absorbed my apology as a tears flowed down her face. She started to blame feeling sick on Tuesday night as the reason she wasn't happy to see us. Then she told me she was trying to distance herself from our dog and from me. Our dog especially "to make it easier on him." I told her she doesn't see how he sits on the couch with his head proped up by the cushions watching the driveway for you to come home on nights that you stay out. He misses her and he will cope when the split happens, but her witholding love from the dog to make it easier on him is bull snikey. Yes I am the leader of the pack in his world, but she plays an important role to. She struggles with the concept that our dog will not be in her life everyday and possibly not every other weekend. How lonly the house will feel. I empathized with her, with a healthy concept of distance in my mind "She chose this." We were both crying discreetly wiping the tears with our napkins. I reaffirmed how I love her, and I worry about her. We can't just throw away 9 years of history together. Yes, we are splitting, but we still know more about one another than anyone on the earth does. I don't want us to work out, I've sealed that in. I'm moving on. I'm doing things for me. But I still worry about her. The weekend while she was gone "with friends" I had lunch with a mutual friend of ours and her baby, her husband was out of town. She verbalized to me how she could see "How I had really hurt my wife" but she also said "How she is kind of leaving me at a bad time." That is where I internalized how I had hurt my wife. We went on to discuss how all the suddent my wife has all these friends and she never calls or is too busy. Our mutual friend is feeling dejected. Since when does she have someone to spend all these nights with and have all this fun without her? I discussed how I felt cheated on, but want to believe she is telling me the truth. During our discussion at the steakhouse I brought up all these conversations that I had had during the weekend she was "on her road trip." I told my wifex not to shut everyone out. People still care about her, she is wrapped around the concept of how our friends are calling me now instead of her. To schedule dinner for tonight, they called me when they linked up they called me. I told them to call her to choose a place to eat. So we all linked up to eat, my wifex had to leave early for a work related Christmas party. I backbriefed our mutual friends that I had shared our conversations with her. I told her (our friend) how I couldn't speak for her, but I got the drift that she felt dejected by my wife, she nodded in agreement. I also told her how my wife had said she called several times and never gotten a returned phone call. She looked shocked, and I told her I know. She has said she called me like 5 times during the day and I have 2 missed calls with no voicemails. So I told our friend it is the blame game and don't make a bigger deal about it then it seems she is doing it more to express anguish to me than the acutal truth. I feel akward... feeling like I'm taking the higher ground on this. I'm concerned about my wifex, but man, it is like she hasn't really thought this thing through. She has stayed so unemotional through the whole process, not letting herself break down in front of me. I told her that I had internalized her hurt by my lies during the conversation with our mutual friend. That is when I really was able to viscerally see how badly I had hurt her. She questioned why I was never able to see that from her. I told her because she wouldn't let me. She always has to be the strong one to show no emotion to be avoidant and distant. I discussed more of how I have framed the history of our relationship in my mind. How she had slammed me once when we were dating. I was trying to express the love hurt relationship that we have, but it came out sort of like I love you, but you can be a real * * * * * sometimes. Oh she kicked me out of the car like 10 miles from campus and drove off. She came back to pick me up as I started to walk back. We went to campus and then a few days later she met me outside of class to express that she didn't want to hold a grudge like this and everything was fine and dandy. Then in counseling, we were asked to say something that we didn't like about one another. I brought up I didn't like how she wasn't very focused on her health/ like diet and weight. She was incredibly hurt and I couldn't handle it so between those two instances I had sealed in to never hurt her feelings. And so I said nothing our whole marriage that might hurt. I seethed inside with resentment, rage, and anger. And when I went to Iraq, I saw it for what it was, and wrote a huge letter to dump everything out on the line. If this was going to work, I had to let myself be known. I tried, and it has apparently backfired, but I would not have experienced the growth and self-reflection/realization of who the real me is had I not done anything (sent the letter) in the first place. So the steakhouse conversation was hurtful, but healthy. She told me that she wasn't going to be in on Friday night but would come home on Saturday and let the dog out. I went to massage class, and then went to the Saturday evening service at church. She texted me to tell me that she wasn't coming home on Saturday and I stewed on her not letting the dog out. I got home walked the dog and went to bed. And got up this morning for School. School is a whole new level of discussion and I'm still internalizing everything (in a good kind of way). When I arrived home she had already gotten home the first words out of her mouth was "Why were you over by Tyson's Corner. When she first called me I had gotten out of school and our friends had called me to let me know they were headed out. I told her where I was at as far as being home and she let me know the same. She was coming from the opposite of where I thought she would be at. I thought she would be at work making up for all the time she has taken off. I reminded myself that it didn't matter, but she asked why I was over by Tyson's Corner as if I was up to something fishy. I retorted because I had school, holding the bag for the Massage class in my hand. Once again Whisky Tango Foxtrot. We met up with our friends the same one I mentioned above. Her husband and mother were with us this time. We went through the pleasantries, and coordinating where to go, was a chore, I asked them to call her and see where she wanted to eat. Once my wifex had left early to go to her work-thing, I divulged what was going on between us. Summarized above. I care about my wifex, but her issues really aren't mine anymore. We both want to be protective of one another. We both still hurt. We both still love each other. We are both trying to move on..... In a lot of ways I can't wait to get Christmas at her parents house over with and come back to move into my new place. I haven't had time to pack boxes or anything like that, but Man oh man..... it will be such a relief to not have to be accountable to her and arrange our schedules around each other. Keep me in your thoughts and prayers. I really have to get some focus and accountability at work these next three days. I know it is the holidays, but the longer I put off my project the more the internal anxiety builds. Left on the follow up discussion from me is how did Massage Therapist Class go? I need to take my sleeping pills and meds now. Mike_chppr