mike_chppr

delarocha, I say in your shoes you should hope as long as she is willing to try. It is up to you to determine when that point is. For me it was the night I moved out of the bedroom. I thought it was separation, but it wasn't. When we talked that night it was the end. the "Not a grain of sand in my body" talk. I think you seeing a counselor is still a good idea, a face to face with a different trained person can help you really discover what you want. Am I still in love with my wifex. No. I love her, but recognize that mutual chemistry is not there and will not be there. At first I thought I would happily become her friend with benefits, but now I wouldn't think of her that way at all and would refuse the invitation. I think it would reattach what little bond we had in my emotions. Hold out hope, go to counseling and see what happens. Counseling will speed up the "limbo" process, it will either bring you closer together, or further apart, but it will do so more efficiently with more closure emotionally for the both of you. I say if you feel like crying let it out. Not just tears, but your whole body. Cry. You are grieving and the more intensefully you feel the hurt pain anger and agony, the better the peace and happiness in the end. I'm experiencing some peace over my decision, but I'm still too flustered with the somatics of PTSD, I look like a guy with Parkinsons shaky shaky. So happiness is a dream right now. I did experience some bliss today and have a lot of fun. So things are more peppy right now. Take care delarocha, Mike_chppr

Fairness it is a rough concept. I've thought a bit about this. say we have 11K in the bank account. But she is getting the 6K couch and I am getting the 3K computer. I've leveraged both on no interest plans to capture the interest in my ING Account. So we have 9K of the available cash that we are paying off. Now here is the thing. The concept now is that we split the availabel cash. So that means we have 2K left over to split. So I walk away with a 4K benifit and she walks away with a 7K benift. Is this really fair. I don't think she should be fully responsible for the couch. But I haven't expressed this concern to her yet. We are starting the split with Stock Accounts. My ROTH IRA is doing better than hers. So If I have 1K more then this means that I will transfer $500 in liquidatable assets into her ROTH IRA or bank account or Retirement Account. As far as the joint trading accounts. We will treat this as a partnership and split what is left in the account 50/50 as we sell. This way we don't have to liquidate what I feel are promising stocks. I can also slowly buy her out of these. The next thing we have are our 401K's from work. I had been putting 15% of my income into this account so that money unseen is money unspent. She is putting 6% just to get her company's matching contribution. Hence I have way more in the retirement account then she does. So I think the decision here is where we can balance things out. Ideally we would take these accounts say she has 5K and I have 15K so what would be fair is for me to transfer 5K to her account and we both have 10K. But this is money unseen and untouched and untaxed. So Is what we could do is Figure out a fair percentage of the couch for me to pay and to balance out the benifit. Hence I would transfer 5K-1.5K or $3,500 to the retirement account which would balance it out. As far as the stuff, I'm not taking much of it. I haven't started packing yet, but I know I need to. I just want to take basics and develop my own "style." The house, we are going on the same gameplan of doing a bridge loan from her parents to cover us over the rough patch. This is very complicated. As far as compensation she will be paying 850/mo towards the mortgage which is what she would pay if she were to get an apartment. I will be paying 250/mo towards the mortgage in order to compensate her for "live-in" maintenance. The rest will be covered with the bridge loan. I agreed to the 250 to help with utilities, and also this was an amount that she agreed would be a fair 50/50 split when we sell the house. I had some super complicated equations, but this seemed to be the easiest equation without having an exponential time based compensation cumulative probability chart. Yes, I can create it, but noone else could understand it. But we are taking a "snapshot of the accounts on January 1st at midnight. These are the numbers we agree to use to shuffle everything. So even though it doesn't happen immediately, we will have a "fair" starting point. Massage Therapy Well I went over to the NMTI National Massage Therapy Institute. OK, I was fairly impressed. Let me give you some background on my interest. Why do I want to do this.... I feel like my inability to touch my wife really created a lot of anxiety between us and her avoidance fed on that. I get anxious when being touched and I get anxious touching others. So I'm taking this class for me. This is an opportunity to learn about touch in a professional setting. It is a chance to learn and confirm to my inner child that touch is not something to be afraid of. So I'm not doing this to change careers, I'm doing this for me. I'm scared all to heck. Today is my first class. Here is how their program works. The total cost of the program is 9K. But part time is every other weekend for Saturday Sunday for the first two months and then friday evening Saturday Sunday for the remaining 10 months. They skip holidays. for my Army drill weekends they will work around them where I can make up the hours and coursework on an alternate weekend. So the time cruch isn't as daunting as first percieved. I get theraputic benifits as well. Cost. I pay $610/mo in college loans. This is the flat payment plan not the graduated plan. So, by becoming a part time student at NMTI the payment concept is like 1K down payment and 660/mo for twelve months. So since my loans go into deferrment and the interest does not accrue this is like taking the course for $1,600. This happens to be a fantastic deal. So part of the class I get and give massages every other week. Great for my own health benifits and what I'm going through right now PTSD wise, but I don't think there are too many opportunities like this. The people at work think I'm becoming a closet hippy. Oh I'm very right wing, but that is another story... entirely. Last night she didn't come home. She left the TV on for the dog to have some noise and the remote was on her bedside table. When I got home I went in to turn the TV off since the dog has me as company. I have no idea where she went last night, but I've stopped asking. In the evenings her phone rings like crazy and she answers and tells a mans voice that she will call him back later. That stings, but I keep reminding myself that we are divorced already. I have this internal psychoticness to pry. Last night when I went to turn the TV off there was a card on her bedside table. It has several small hearts with monkeys hanging from them sitting on them, etc. It is just sitting there out in the open. I was like Oh..... Whisky Tango Foxtrot! I reminded myself that I wasn't going to pry. I went into the batroom and started cussing and yelling at myself in the mirror. Repremanding the inclination of wanting to open it to see what it says. I feel so vulnerable. It could be a blank card, but then it could be well.... you know.... a lover's letter. I cannot confront her on this, because it would kind of be an Oh, crap I'm caught one way or the other situation for her. How could she deny it without showing me the card to prove her innocence, and then if she doesn't show me the card even if I don't ask her to, it is kind of verifying my worst fear. I'm reminding myself that we are divorced. We are divorced even though the papers aren't here or we sleep under the same roof. Oh, this is maddening. my internal anxiey of wanting to look is killing me. but I think It would do a lot of harm to find out. I would transfer from a self-reflective spot in my life which I'm experiencing a lot of personal growth to a blame place. I would be furiously angry and resentful. So I'm trying with every ounce of my being not to look at the card, not to go into her room. I had to to turn off the television, but I'm verbally yelling at my mind that I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to look. I'm not going to stoop to that, It isn't healthy to know. I've convinced my desire to not look to about 80% and I have that 20% urge in me that really puts a spin on the gut wrenching. Keep me in your thoughts, I'm terrified of going to this class, what if it is totally granola boy / granola girl petuli smelling free loving hippies in this class. I'm totally nervous I won't be able to relate or get along with anyone. but I'm doing this for me. I don't know if I should dump my story on the first day on the why are you taking this class or to take my time and give a glossed over response. I will probably dump my story, it is a shock value thing and it is kind of my style. I'm not sure if that is wise, but I will gage it when the time comes. I know by the time I get there I will be trembling uncontrollably. But I'm so looking forward to doing it. OK I'm running out of time before I have to walk the dog and get ready for class. So I'm leaving a note of what to follow up on when I get the time. Discussion at Steakhouse / Mutual Friends and a Baby Mike_chppr

Nothing wrong with keeping your forum alive, I'm thinking of giving an update in my own. I read your above comments, and I totally know where you are at right now. I'm just letting you know where the traps are. Best few days, since the post, this is the healthy part of internalization. You had an alternate motive for the flowers. But now you realized that. You have internalized that. You have grieved the loss of the response you expected. Letting go of "Save it at all costs" can be a healthy choice. Realize that both of you are feeding it. There is nothing you can do but self reflect. Judge yourself, think of the pain it caused her to know that you didn't really care about her accomplishement. What can you do to repair that attempt. I can give you a suggestion, but you have to come up with one from your heart. I'll go into an example of my own later this week about discussing my wifes response to my dog earning his CGC certificate. Guilt, and Shame, they terrorize us and make us feel small and belittled, make us feel worthless and unlovable, I'd say that you need not rid yourself of some of the guilt, you need to find a way to rid yourself of the guilt that pertains to this incident, figure out how it relates to the guilt you feel with say an interaction with your parents. Painful interactions prey on our childhood hurts and feelings. We feel guilty for feeling the way we do, because we realize that it is immature and childish, but we have no idea where it comes from until we self-reflect. From there we can try to pair up situations where this childish response happens and choose a different path. To summarize, take some time to get to know you. To see your internal conflict and evil. To accept that it exists and to see the turmoil it brings. It is so hard to do things without an expectation of others especially when you are Anxious-Fearful. Anxious about getting the response you want, but Fearful that it will confirm your inner child being harmed. We set ourselves up and she sets herself up the same way. Your wife, could have said you know what I know that the reason you got the flowers was to get a response, this hurts me, but I respect your tenacity... thanful that you even concidered that I have had an accomplishment. Her accomplishment may not even mean that much to her, but she has paraded it to you to get you to stumble and prove to her that you are week and she has the upper hand. You want her to switch from being avoidant, and she wants you to switch from being Anxious. But both have to self-reflect to get anywhere. It starts by one person self reflecting first, recognizing the evil and love in them. The dependency and the roots of that need. You put so much pressure on the response, why did you do that you should ask yourself, Was it to prove that she is the rejector, that she is the evil one, that despite all the good things that you could do for her she still makes you out to be the bad guy, and well, now you really feel that way. Why does she always make you feel like the bad guy. How does every conversation turn around to be about me. Fiddle with these questions in your head, figure out how to know when you are in the moment and say. "I'm hurt by that, I recognize that I have some faults, and I blame you for them, but I'm hurt because you can expose them better than anyone else." "I truly wish I were more... but part of this process is me facing my inner demons." "I could drag you through my pain, but I need to process my pain for me; just like I need to stand up for me, assuring that I'm not the hurt one, I'm not the bad one." There is some goodness and love in me and it is this love that wants to get out, but love can only come out after the hurt is felt internalized. Once internalized and self-reflected, only then can you empathize with the target of your murderous afflictions to feel their pain from it and to viscerally apologize. Internalize=Forgiveness of yourself/ a Knowledge of the aspects of your inner child... Apology=Intimacy/Owning Up to who you are. I understand the need to Want to feel happy when you are sad. But here is the thing. Internalize the sadness. Yes it could make you feel more sadness, but you can FEEL it, until you FEEL your sadness you will be unable to FEEL your happiness. because why you are sad you are mitigating the feelings of wanting to FEEL happy. Keep it in the back of your mind there will be happy times and sad times. The deeper the low is the higher the high is with some variabilty of course. How do you FEEL loved, you feel loved by FEELing hated. You hate you wife for withdrawing from you and you are grieving the loss of those intertwined days. I don't know if you read the posts on the other board about how I self distructed, but My wife and I where having a "good" day and I read more into it then should have been. I led myself up to an expectation of me putting a sexual whallop on her for putting me through the last few weeks. Well, it didn't pan out. I asked her permission to masterbate in the same bed with her. She said OK and I enjoyed myself, much to her anguish and dissaproval. When I climaxed I clutched her and to her she felt violated / sexually assaulted. She was tremendously hurt. When we arrived home from our vacation at my brothers we spent one more night in the same bed and she went out of town. I discovered, who am I kidding myself that I can sleep in the same bed with the woman I love and not want to touch her, the resentment became so intense, that I became no longer loving, I became vengeful and enticed thoughts of raping my wife. Getting what was rightfully mine that she was holding out on. As I truly felt these thoughts and sublimated them through masterbation. I cried for a while in the agony of how I could love a woman so much, yet hate her with an intense enough rage to consider raping her. The goodness and evilness of humanity peirced my soul and I was able to internalize that both the good and the evil are in the same pot. I can love her with the same intensity of rage. I never verbalized the rape thoughts, but when she came back from her work-trip I had moved out. I had crossed the line on more than one front, the lies, the assault, That I had repulsed her in such a way that she has made up her mind. So, I guess is what I'm trying to say, is it might be better to realize the idea of "Who am I kidding myself to sleep next to the woman I love without wanting to have my hands on her." Discuss it with her. You can use my example as seeing those tendencies in yourself if you can relate. Tell her, that you fear your pent up rage and resentment for what we are going through and are afraid of the way it will get expressed. A counselor can help you sort through these things. Yes the holidays will be tough, but try and schedule in advance like the first week in January instead. This way you have an appointment and a goal. To reflect on yourself until you go. To write your emotions and feelings and have a framework to make the professional fully attuned to the complexity of what you are going through. There is so much going on that to speak of it in one session you will barely tell her your name and when you got married and some minor details about your week. That first session doesn't even put a dent into it, the second one puts a scratch, and the more open you can be prior to the scratch session the deeper that scratch will be (for the panful good of course). I know what you mean by forcing yourself not to say these things about what you miss. I'm torn on what to say. I ended up saying them and I think she resented me more for it, but in a way, I felt like I had let her know the agony that I was in. The turmoil. You are grieving the loss of those activities, you will go through the shock, why me, ambivalence (I can get it back, no I can't, do I want it back, of course I do, no I don't), anger(She's friggen holding out on me. Does she want me to cheat on her.) Truth is, yes she wants you to do something so atrocious that it seals the deal for her. That she can say I'm leaving you because you "lied" "sexually assaulted" "abandoned" "cheated" etc... It gives her a reason to make the choice that she wants in the moment. Your sadness pushes her away, but you need to express how you have discovered how intensely your actions have hurt her. That you will express this not in a blaming way, but in a loving and caring. I know these times are incredibly difficult for us, and I have learned some of the ways I have hurt you. It pains me immensely to realize this wholloping that I have dished out to you. I can't change the past, and I want to express how deeply I know you are hurting because of me and my actions. This is not blaming yourself, it is internalizing it, and by feeling the pain, you forgive and repair. Don't watch TV, order a book. Figure yourself out, Self Reflect. Define what the idea of being in love is. because it is really letting yourself be known for who you are. Letting the other person into the things that really hurt, the things you know they can exploit with a furious stabbing. Forgiving yourself for harboring resentment for not expressing them or being true to yourself, but also not blaming them for keeping you from sharing. I think showing love is in a way confessing your resentment, showing your hurts. It has nothing to do with sex and touch, but everything to do with empathy and expressing your true self. To know and embrace that you love her DEEPLY, but you also hate her DEEPLY as well.

Amy Nicole, I feel for you. I've seen guys like your husband and all I can do is stand on the sidelines, going "Wow she must really hurt being at home while your out....." Being from the military, I will give you some chunks of advise. 1) call military onesource. 1-800-342-9647, this number is a connection to six free sessions with a counselor. The counselor may or may not be linked togeether with Tricare, but you can get 6 free sessions for any reason, so this means your first 6 are you are depressed, your second 6 is your husband is a cheat, your third 6 is working through a separation, your fourth 6 is working through a divorce, or any other issue in between. There is a Licensed Professional Counselor on the line that will direct you to someone locally. 2) dig your heels in now. This is about the kids and him supporting them. (if they are his of course). People say lots of things when they are somewhat remorseful, but people fall off the edge of the earth! However you separate with a mediator or a lawyer, you need to get the legal responsibilities set in stone. Because here is how it could wind up. He has two children with you, and one in the oven with the neighbor. Hmmm that makes three he is probably 25 years old, maybe an E4 or E5. With his obvious imaturity he is probably an E4. You can work with the kids and a counslor regarding why they won't have a daddy right now/anymore. If he is moving to another state he will play a very small role in their lives. Maximum of 4 weeks out of the year. So three children, in 5 years, lets slow that down to two more in the next 5 years and then one more after that. Finally he says heck, I'm getting fixed. But he has 6 kids your's are teenagers and it isn't cheap. If you aren't working you are entitled to alimony and I believe all of the BAH until you remarry. You have a lot of rights. I'll lower it if you have been messing around also {I'm only mentioning this as you say you can't bring it up with the neighbor. She is just as guilty as he is, and she knows you!}. If that is the case, then it is pretty much 50/50. Basically, Leverage him now with legal paperwork before he is trying to spread his check 6 ways! 3) Call his commander, let his commander know what is going on and that you would like to speak with a JAG. You need to find out what your rights are. As a military spouse there are lots, especially in the long term benifits side. You have a right to the military resources. There should also be a FSG, Family Support Group. They will know what resources are available to you as well. The Chaplains Corps as well can be an asset in times like this. With you leaving him his military life could crumble, it is important that his commander know what is going on. I'm fairly sure infidelity is covered in the UCMJ. So you have even more leverage there than you do in civilian arenas. Plus the military will help you do it right. They {the military as an organization} really care about taking care of the families that self-distructive soldiers leave behind. This is part of why they mad the military onesource line. Use it... it is free. Then tricare has some coverage as well to see a counselor. My prayers go out to you, I've seen women in your shoes get crushed, but I've also seen them get back up on their feet and become "Powerhouses!" You will get through this, in the end you got to do what is best for you and your children. The last thing they need is "mommy can't get a new dad because our real dad gave her an STD." You have to live with you until the last day. I hope this advice is helpful, but I'd force you to call onesource if I could, it really is that helpful. 1-800-342-9647 Take Care, Mike_chppr

delarocha, You are in a tough predicament. Be aware you can self distruct. She may be subconsciously giving you space so that you will self distruct. With your anxiety, she knows how to push you over the limit. I think it is OK that she not say I love you all the time, in fact she should be able to say that she Hates you sometimes. And the fact that she doesn't express what she hates and just withdraws, feeds your anxiety, Because you sort of know what she likes, but you have no idea what she hates. Self reflection is an awesome tool. I have been much peppier myself, however I self distructed our marriage. You guys have an opportunity, how do you know if you are commited or not. You have to see the edge coming. You have to know that you two are so far apart and by some miracle the gap was closed. Realize her withdrawal is feeding your protests and turning them into resentment. Express to her, when you do not feel very lovable. But don't express to her in a way that is like "I want you to love me right now." When you don't feel lovable, you cannot depend on her, she is only human, you have to self soothe. Time will tell with attunement to where you both are in sych out of synch in synch out of synch. The therapy WILL work, but she has to be willing to let it work. The fact that she is willing to go with you is a good sign, but the key is to not self-distruct between now and then. Take Care, Mike_chppr

grieving06, Times like these can be hard. Your daughter is almost fully grown. Explain what is going on in terms of something like her boyfriend. There are basically two things going on. 1) You came back the first time and are begging for 100% of his affection (rightfully so) part of doing this makes you feel pathetic and he sees through that. 2) He isn't taking credit for his own actions. He is blaming his "addiction" until he reflects on what he is doing and empathizes with the pain that he is causing himself and others, he will not change. He knows your his sidekick and friend with "benifits" and that is his comfort zone. So, I think you should leave him. Be optimistic, this will hurt, you will have to change and there will be really painful moments. Realize what you have done yesterday has gotten you to where you are today. You can make it on your own. Your daughter will choose which parent she wants to be with. But it is important that she understand your decision. The other part of your decision needs to be in her best interest. Later down the road in life if (and possibly probably when) she ends up with a cheating boyfriend/husband, she can realize that there is another option to "sticking it out". You aren't just leaving for you, you are leaving to show her that there are other options to this kind of abuse. You don't have to say that to her, your actions will show it to her. Leaving a man like this is an act of love for yourself and your daughter, be optimistic about your future, it will take time to heal. I am very lonely and I haven't moved out of the house yet. But reading and getting on these boards and seeing a psychologist and going to work. Sometimes breaking down in front of a coworker can be the best thing to ever happen. It doesn't show weakness, and I'm amazed at how many people are there for me right now. People coming out of the woodworks with compassion. I explain to them my situation is mutual, but they still think, my wife is an evil wanker for leaving me within 60 days of coming back from Iraq. No matter how I tell them that I have hurt her to they are there to support me, and I've been gone for 16 months! Live 1/2 day at a time. Make yourself get up and go to work. If you look disheveled who cares? If anyone says anything you can reply back, "What would you look like if you found out that your husband of 15 years has three girlfriends on the side?" Then turn and walk away. The water cooler talk will be murmering. And someone with some real compassion will want to talk with you about it, maybe even they have gotten through it already. I know the kind of person you are, the... keeping personal life private kind of person..., but now is the time to step out. What do you have to loose, people are more understanding and empathetic than you can imagine. They don't want you to be alone anymore than you want to be. They care about you and love you. They want this opportunity to connect, share and show you how much you really mean to them. You will never find out how much love and compassion is out there until you open up. I don't know your religious preference, but a church/temple/mosque can be a way to connect with others. Family is a way, but sometimes that just puts you right back into victim mode. Forgiveness, this is how you move on. I'm convinced of it. Feel your rage now, but in the end you have to forgive. This doesn't mean forget, but you have to digest this pain and the loss you feel. It is a grieving process and it is very real. A fantastic book I'm reading right now is link removed. It has really brought everything into perspective for me. It hurts, it feels alone, but you have to live with you till the last day. Do you want to feel pathetic groveling for a cheating mans heart. Or do you want to feel the joy and happiness of "you made it"... "you have truly discovered who YOU are" I think that is about all I can say right now. Be positive, don't blame him, realize it is both of you. Grasp that you can love him and hate him at the same time. You probably will love him a little bit for the rest of your life, but that doesn't mean you are crippled by that love. I think everyone can say that about their first sweetheart. You aren't alone, many have treaded this water and some of them are right here on these boards. I in no way have any credentials to give advice, know that I empathize with you, I haven't experienced what you are going through, but know that you are loved. As for the advice that I have given above, others are welcome to add to interject or comment on it. Later Mike_chppr

delarocha, I know all about your story. You want to be yourself and be known. Anxiety is killing you inside and it definitely interacts with the way you feel attached to your wife. Your wife has a set of issues as well. I could try and diagnose your relationship as it is a common one. My wife and I had something similar. Had I not cut her with 1,000 cuts she would not have stabed our marriage fatally twice, hence me being on the divorce board. I guess I have two suggestions. 1). Recommit yourselves to one another. This may be for one month, three or more. 2). The therapist WILL work. This is the type of thing that they do. Your anxiety has a path, it is manifesting itself with your relationship with your wife. If you and her want your friendship to turn around back into a "marriage" then therapy WILL work. If you have already convinced yourself that therapy will not work and that you are too far gone, Then you are in a self-fulfilled prophecy. Hence see suggestion 1. 3). Check your and your wife's insurance policy/policies, Some don't cover marriage counseling, but they do cover psychiatric services for sexual disfunction. Sex is concidered to be a "major life activity." Problems can affect your mental as well as physical health. It may be humiliating to go to a doctor to be referred to a mental health specialist, but it will be worth it. 4). Check out this website, This really WOWed me to what was going on in my relationship, but it ended up being too little to late, I found it between the first and second stabs. link removed Best Marriage book I can recommend is link removed I read about 5 marriage books and 6 or 7 sex books while in Iraq. Out of all that, This one really really stuck out. I gave it to my mom and brother for Christmas. If you have an interest after previewing the Attachement in Relationships I can refer you to a book on that as well. It has made a huge difference in my personal relationship with myself to make some of these connections. I'd say Best of Luck, but that has been said already. So I'm going to say this, feel deep into the past, feel your greatest love for your wife, the most emotional kind of love. Dwell on this, and give her a long hug, In your mind transfer this emotional kind of love as if you were trying to implant this feeling into her mind. Hug until both of you are relaxed. Let your anxiety go, this hug is not about sex, it is about connecting. Those are my final comments...

I don't think I will totally eradicate her from my life, despite what I've done to her and she has done to me, she is still my best friend. I went to the mall today to purchase her Christmas gift. I got her some break resistent beverage glasses as she has always been clutzy and breaks dishes on accident more than the average person. She will appreciate that. I also got her an ipod thing to tune her ipod into her car sterio. She has Sirious Radio and will be cancelling to save money. Getting something for her dad is driving me nuts. he likes golf, well I like geek things, he knows no more what to get me than I him. I've got the perfect item for her Mom. It is a framed four leaf clover from Redenvelope. I thought I should get them for the wifex, but I think what I got her is more appropriate. I can relate to what you say about getting back to my old self, but I'm not sure I want that. I would totally love to create a sheek pad, my own little "ME" apartment. Before we met, all I had was ratty college stuff, pinch a pinny raid the dumpsters after graduation kind of stuff. Now I have an income. Hmmmmmm Target or Arhaus. But a big part of decorating is figuring out who I am. Our kitchen table (16th century Russian Bread Table). Yes, it will remind me of her, and that is OK. I take the good memories with the bad. I realize that she is only human and so am I. I'm still hurting and that is OK too. Like I said she isn't going to up and vanish. We want the best for each other, and she will probably help me pack. I see the psychotic tendency of her to keep score moreso than me. I agree with the appliance thing. If it can break, she can have it. This way as I develop my style. I'm starting from scratch. Although it might be nice just to pack up stuff I'm taking to my place and deliver it to Goodwill for the tax break in 2007. It is one more step, but would that be devious? If she thought it was going to my place and doesn't end up there... I'm going to have to get rid of some things. And I'm starting with a couch set and a fouton with a Kitchen Table. I was walking around Macy's today and really thinking about my style, what is it. I'm attracted to that asiany fung suey look, but I also like the rugged Punky look as well think (Hot Topic/Urban Outfitters). I'm thinking of becoming friends with the gay guy at work to help me tie things in. I don't want to make expensive purchases only to throw them out a year or two later. But I don't want to live out of boxes either. One thing I'm getting for sure. is one of those chalkboard like dry erase boards. So I can jot down things that I am working on in my head and have a place to write it. This helped in graduate school as I had one in my office. The only thing is do they come in black with like different colored markers that are easily erasable. A huge white one might really seem classroomish. I might just hire an interior decorator to tie in my stuff. My wifex has an idea of what she thinks my pad will look like? I told her not to give me any hints, as I want to discover what my style really is! She is cool with that. I'm looking into the Massage Therapy thing with NMTI, National Massage Therapy Institute. It seems like a huge time drag for 7 months. They either have full time or part time. Full is like M-R 5:15 to 10:30 for 28 weeks. With a full time job, a dog, etc.. that will be huge. But I think it is an important part of me discovering who I am. I've had fleeting fantasies of me quitting my carrer as a Statistician to become a massage therapist, Having discussions with all kinds of people about what my carrer used to be. Fat people, skinny people, old, young, gender reassignment, gay, straight, different races. Of how once I was afraid to even touch people and how I'll have these "healing" hands. Total fantasy I know, but I think.... How do you know if you don't try? There is a lot on my plate, but I can use up some annual leave, work 30hour weeks, Hire a dog walker and still pay for the course. It is a very expensive way to say get rid of your fear of touching people, but at what cost, to never really knowing. I'm touring the facility on Tuesday to see if this is what I imagined it would be. Who knows, they seem to be pressuring me to get into the system. Maybe they know that people don't finish. 28 weeks is a long haul. The cost is a barrier. The Part time option is like Friday Evening, Saturday Sunday for 12 months. With being in the Reserves that isn't going to work out so well. Even the 28 weeks would be pushing it. I would like to start after we sell the house. But it seems like they will have an angle to get you in the system. It is in the plans, but it is mine. I've also thought of doing one of those hikes as a counselor with inner city kids or even poor children in general. That is how I grew up and I would love to let kids know that life doesn't have to always be that way. I've come a long way in my self discovery and if I could share my experiences with someone young so that maybe they can circumvent that part, I think I could really make a difference. But also. Instead of lying about stories, what about doing them. Skydiving, Hiking, Adventure Tours. Things like my bungee jumping trip in New Zealand would be a great story to tell. (hasn't happened yet). I have some great stories about Iraq, but there is more to life than the sandbox. Not everyone in a third world country is "out to get'cha!" So I really need to discover myself. and the question is how much different will I be in 18 or 24 months from now in my tastes than I am now. I've spent the last 5 years defining myself through a marriage. I've grown up a lot, but I am still not myself. I keep reflecting on my dad and my mom. My dad seemed genuinely happy. He was true to himself (living a pseudo-gay lifestyle). My mother has played the victim and she is trying to pump me for information to play the victim through my failed marriage. My marriage was not a failure, yes it is ending in divorce, but when we married, I truly believe it was what we needed from each other at the time. Iraq took the rose colored glasses off of both of us, I can empathize with her hurts about me lying. I only lied twice last week (in life in general). And sofar once this week. Others look at the situation like, oh man... this is the time you needed her the most and she is abandoning you. It does feel like that sometimes, but which is worse death from a thousand cuts (I have given her this by lying our whole relationship) Or two slicing stabs within 60 days after coming home from 16 months away including a 12 month tour in Iraq she says "I'm not in love with you anymore and don't know that I can be anymore." followed up a month later with "If there was a grain of sand in my body that thought this would work I would try, but there isn't, and I want a Divorce!" So I guess the thing I'm taking from all this is If I phrase this in my head like... "Within 60 days of me coming back from Iraq my wife left me!" I'm playing the victim and blaming her for leaving me. I'm working to mentally phrase it in my head like... "Isn't it amazing, like a Nationwide Comercial. Within 60 days of coming back from Iraq I was able to convince the woman I love that she wasn't in love with me.... Life Comes At You Fast... Nationwide is on your Side!" The thing is the above statement is healthier, but it moves the blame from her to Iraq. So my marriage crumbled because I went to Iraq. We mutually self distructed our marriage by playing the victim / punisher. I lied to my friend/girlfriend/fiance'/wife in uncountable ways about my past and present. I witheld from her and she witheld from me. By me lying I was never able to be myself with her, and by her not being enabled to know the true me, she was never allowed to share her true self with me. In a sense we both lied to each other even though mine was verbalized. She is not "The Evil witch of the World" and she is not the "Blissful Love from all Eternity" She is both. I love her and I hate her, I see the Evil with the Love, and she as well as I are only humans who did the best that we could do under the circumstances of each others psychotic tendencies. We gave it a shot, and carried each other along the path to be better people in the long run. Was it a mistake to get married? Absolutely Not. Is it a mistake to get a Divorce? Only time will tell, and right now it is looking like it is not a mistake. That is the truth, If I hold onto who I am and really look at it, that doesn't place blame on her or me. I think now is to feel the pain in this. I think in some sense I may have repressed the pain a little too much. I think I need to back away and feel some more of it. And maybe that will happen when I actually move out. She is a special person, and I truly wish her the best, I love her and hate her. Life Comes At You Fast!!! Nationwide is on Your Side.....

glegend, This is great if your families come from similar financial backgrounds and have an even number of children to support, but in our case it isn't. I have a mother tetering on bankruptsy on a 30K loan on a house, her family, is the polar opposite. So her family, as she is an only child has given us tons. Items from the wedding, We don't know what side of the family gave us what. It is all a wash really. The house is owned by the bank, we can't give that to anyone. There are some simple things like my laptop and her laptop, but what about the vaccuum cleaner. We have the dyson, the king of all vaccuums and if she keeps it I have to spend $400+ to get another one and visa versa. Once you go dyson you never ever go back. It would be nice if everyone could take whatever they want, but it isn't that simple. What happens when both of you want the same thing. Marriage has been about blending things together. I don't own a dresser set because she does, and she has a lot of fancy clothes because I don't own a dresser set. I own a fancy rifle because I didn't have to purchase a dresser set. I think I have covered the combinations. We were very give and take, 2 months before this blew over, we ordered a custom made couch costing 6K. How do you take that into account. It may sound fair to say whoever keeps it pays for it, but that isn't really fair to her as she had waited patiently for me to come home from Iraq and saved up money so that it could be purchased. This isn't easy, I wish it were, but it isn't decisions are hurtful sometimes and the worst of our "button pushing" can come out. I can do name calling and she can imply that I'm a worthless and inept lover. But where does that get us. we have to make decisions and we have to work together. She is my best friend, my companion. This hurts, all the way to my core this hurts. But I'm moving on and so is she. The most important thing is that we feel the feelings, that we reflect at how we have played a part and our pasts have played a part and learn more about ourselves from the situation. If I play the blame game, what type of perspective am I gaining to figure out who I truly am. Still hurting, Mike_chppr

CNS, All I can say is WOW, I would have went to a gas station made a moltov coctail and burned the frigging place down. If I had gone up to the door, Man oh man... It may have been a bloody mess literally. Fortunately I've had the rationality to just stay away. You mentioned that he doesn't want counseling. I kind of came to that point in my life. It takes two it is WE, WE, WE, not ME, YOU, THEM. I liken it to playing tug of war, you have a huge rope, and both are pulling towards the mudpit. But in the midst of the game one person lets go. And you are so caught up winning you don't realize that they would have landed in the mudpit by now. And all their lenght of leftover rope is caked in heavy mud. So, How long are you going to drag the rope? And this is where I think you have a healthy amount of closure. maybe it was for the best for you to see him in her house. I couldn't of handled it, but I have a different potential for the insane side of humanity then you do. Relize there are several parts of grief. You have grieved losses many times in this relationship, and there will still be more to come, you will have the one where you split for good, when you sign the papers, when you split the stuff, when you start dating again and compare everyone to him. Don't think you're not falling apart. You are, and you will do it on your own terms. I don't know if you are still seeing a therapist, but shame, guilt, grief, and forgiveness can be huge. They can all debilitate you for life if you don't spend the time to really go through the grieving process, denial, anger, ambivalence, doubt, and acceptance. So maybe a therapist can't necessarily help with your marriage that is/has crumbled. But they can help you resolve the guilt "for not falling apart" like you think you should. I think if you feel guilty you really haven't gone through the whole grieving process, it takes time. In my situation I'm still depressed, I don't want to do anything and have called in sick the last two days, partly because of medication and partly because I don't want to deal. Is this healthy, maybe and maybe not. I don't know. But I have found that reading has helped me think things through and internalize a lot. Right now I'm reading "The Forgiving Self: the road from resentment to connection" by Robert Karen, Ph.D. It has really helped me not only resolve the grieving process with the dissolution of my marriage, but also with the lumps of grieving in my past that I have never quite gotten through, that have really impacted my "psycho-like" tendencies that I am fighting withing myself halfday at a time. Hang in there. this isn't easy street with no slope this is rolling hills and valleys with some hills being steeper than others and some valleys being deeper than others. So enjoy the peaks and don't circumvent the dips and you'll pull through this a much stronger and more alive and vibrant person. Take some time to discover yourself and who you are, not defined through him. I could go on rambling, but I'm not sure if it will help. Hang in there. mike_chppr

404 I haven't been around the boards in a few days. I think you decision is healthy right now. Couples counseling can be a fantastic benifit to rebuilding trust and respect. Your efforts to repair and her efforts to repair will not go unnoticed by either one of you if sincere. That is the fantastic thing about love, we realize that we love and hate the person at the same time, and that there is not an evil person separate from a good person. But they are a mixture or blended. I guess the concept for you that I want to share is piece it in your mind that couples counseling is about fixing US. It isn't about her getting fixed, but the both of you. Open yourself up, empathize and really feel your own hurt and express it. I'm sure she has hurts from you as well, and once you both are able to express your own hurts first introspectively and then to one another the intimacy and connection you both seek reveals itself. Also, realize that she can walk away at anytime. She may be unable to forgive herself. She may be riddled with a lump of guilt that she may never be able to digest. Your love for her can digest it, but ultimately the digestion is a process that she has to go through. I don't envy your position at all, This isn't going to be like hitting the Staples button "That was easy!" but in the end if it works out the two of you will be immensely stronger because of it. If it doesn't realize that you will be with you every day of your life and getting through this is a part of discovering who you are, that you can have hate and love blended together and that is who you are. I may be just rambling, but that is where I'm at right now. I am doing some reading on forgiveness so it may just be propaganda, but I feel comforted by the introspection and I might be able to share some of that with others. Take Care and God Bless, mike_chppr

OK, well I constructed this fancy spreadsheet discussing how we can split the payments. I tried to create a weight using proportions like 75% of the tennants rent goes to the "live-in" landlord. And then we take the mortgage minus rent to come up with a combination that she can afford. Then we use what we pay into the house plus the renters proportional contribution to cover until we can sell. Sounds fair in reality, but how do you apply it. How do you come up with what is fair. Quality of life can be placed into the situation, like what is the difference in the value if she moves out or if I move out. Well anyway I came up with another option. That popped into my head. So our mortgage is 2420 a month. She needs to pay 900/mo to maintain her finances which is resonable as she can get an apartment in the area for 700/mo so 900 is stretching it. I'm paying 1300/month in my apartment. I can contribute a number as high as 400/mo towards the house. but lets say I don't contribute anything. We have 30K in stocks between the two of us. 2420-900=1520/mo remaining. The Real Estate agent believes we are solidly in the 400K catagory. Our house is "Move In ready with a small laundry list of things to add to the picture. I walked away with the impression that he felt like we could get 400K in the spring. But I want to create a safety net and say that we cannot sell until next October, hence 10 months under my apartment situation. I figure money to put into the house to truly make it a "model home" will be around 2K. 10 months times 1520 plus 2K is $17,200. Which is just 1,000 over the closing costs to refinance into my name. So we could go to the bank to get a short term loan and use our 30K in stocks as colateral. Selling the house by early june.... is six months. So using the 2K in upgrades plus the supplemental mortgage from the loan is 11,200 in loan costs. We figure that we have put 20K in upgrades to the home already, so That makes our total investment 370K. Add the 2K and we are up to 372K. Lets say we sell for 400K on the dot. Then this leaves us 28K pay back the 11K loan leaves us 17K. Subtract 2% for the realtor fee and we pull out an additional 8K. This leaves us at 9K to split between the two of us 50/50. For the additional time past May is only 6K. so that would leave 3K between the two of us to split 50/50. We walk away with our shirts if we can sell within the next year. As far as the loan I can either sell some of our stocks, borrow against my government TSP program at a 4% interest rate, Go to a bank and see what they have to offer or ask family to spot us interest free to get over the hump. This sounds like a plan. We argued over so much last night about my complicated equation and how I "chose" to move out of the house and that commute shoudn't be incorporated and that she doesn't know if she can find a renter for just a few months or if she is even comfortable having someone in the house that she doesn't know plus whomever they may bring over. But anyway. I've come up with a plan to work together, get us over the financial hump and come out with our shirts if not a profit. SO.... does anyone see any holes in my plan? Does it seem fair, if not slightly in favor of my wife, being that she has access to all the nicities of living in a home for $900/mo? Plus her stuff after we move mine out is basically the minimalist model home. I come over on weekends to work on the upgrades and we get this thing rolling. Yes we probably could get more in 18 months, but at what price to our sanity. The floater loan is less than one we could take to refinance. This is really stressful and I just want to walk away.

For those of you following along what is fair regarding the house, the market has soured miserably. Houses are staying on the market for 6 months or longer. The expectation is that it will pick up in Spring and there will be a huge bump in 18 to 36 months. A supply demand issue that is coming up in the area. So what is fair. They resonably believe our house purchased at 350K with a $2300/mo mortgage is now worth over 400K, We have put about 20K worth of work into the place. So we could now be sitting on 30K in profit, but houses are sitting on the market for 180 days right now. So the real estate agent walked through today and came up with a laundry list of things we need to do to sell this house. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen. So with that in mind, does she buy me out for 15K and she takes the mortgage, do I buy her out for 15K and I take the morgage, Do we keep it in both of our names. What kind of refinanced mortgage can we get and how much will it save us? These are the questions I put out there, and the response.... If I go with a 5 year ARM it will only reduce the payment down to 1900/mo. the Fair rental value of the home is around 1600 to 1800/mo. So if I have my wife rent from me lets say she does 800/mo and she finds a roomate to do 800/mo. This means I would have to cough up 300/mo to cover the new mortgage. or I could cough up 700/mo to maintain the current one. If we do that we keep the house in both of our names. Refinancing is going to eat 16K of the 30K we are up. I think in the end it would be much easier to sell in the Spring or summer, even though we might not be able to get the most bang for our buck we could get out with our shirts intact. So If I pay 700/mo to maintain a house that I don't live in over a period of 18/months I'm putting in 12,600 where the 400/mo is 7,200. However on the 7,200 I have to pay 16K in total closing costs up front. So we are locked into the concept that I can rent or have my ex stay in the house. Fair rental value is 1600/mo. If I did refinance into my name lets say 8K of the closing costs get split 50/50. Hence the 7,200 is really 15,200 out of pocket. Still 3K less than the 12,600, where we work out a deal to manage the house together. If this is the case we should be able to get more in the long run if we hammer out a Joint Partnership type agreement. Hence I have to figure out a way to pay my part of the joint loan. The rent on my apartment is 1300/mo, so If we do some kind of joint thing, Lets add that into the picture, 2300+1300 is 3,600/mo. Would mean 1200/mo three ways. Well, we could get someone in for 800/mo so that leaves 400 to split between the two of us. i.e. she pays 1600/mo and I pay 1600/mo or 300/mo to the house. That is probably fair if we are going to split the profits 50/50 when we sell. Truth is there is no way she can afford 1600 a month, but she could get a third roomate for the third bedroom. Splitting her 1600/mo into half. meaning all three residents pay 800/mo and I send in two hundred dollars a month. We use this arrangement to hold us over for a year until we can feasibly sell and also finish with the minor upgrades that the real estate agent talked about today. I know this is a lot of math for most people, but I'm going to have to explain this to my wife/ex. I can't wait to introduce her as my wife-ex think of it rhyming with spandex. This will be something that will make others laugh, but not be taken too seriously by the two of us. I've called her my wify most of the time we have been married. OK back to the point, It sounds like we can hammer this out together, Yes, she could walk and I could get screwed. But I think the numbers kind of keep things in perspective as to what kinds of losses we are looking at. Even if I come up with some way to cover the 700/mo even though I'm not living there, it would still be worthwhile as the closing costs really have a huge impact. Input from others who have hammered things like these out would be appreciated.

I'm fairly certain the house will be at a loss of around 20K right now. That is good idea about the down deposit, it came out of the joint account. When I think of buying her out I'm also thinking of the equity we have paid for in the last 18 months. on a 30 year fixed about 85% to 90% of the initial loan is interest. So we have paid down some principle. And we are a few months ahead in our payments. Since my wife paid when she got the bill we got a few months ahead as they just started sending the bill earlier and earlier. So not only the deposit for things like closing costs need to be split, but also the equity on the loan that we have. If the house is at a loss, determining what is fair in a buyout is a tough proposition. If we both wanted out and it was a 20K loss, we would each owe 10K. If it is a loss and I take on the 20K risk by not making her pay me the 10K of the loss is that equivalent to buying her out. Something else I thought about. I have a slew of annual leave that I could "liquidate" does that count as joint property? Should I disclose what this could amount to? I want to be as fair and open as possible, what is she getting that can be considered half. I feel that she does deserve what is fair. The BF thing. I talked with my therapist about it today. I told her that my spidy sense was going nuts and that I feel like I have been cheated on, but I want to believe that she is telling me the truth. I told her about wanting to pry to find out. She said it probably would not be healthy for her to tell me or even for me to try and find out at this point if ever at all. To keep it in the back of our minds that even though the courts say we are married, in both of our heads we aren't anymore. I don't wear my wedding ring on my left hand anymore (I moved it to the right). She doesn't wear hers at all. My perspective is that I love her like a sister. we have a history, we arn't just going to be poof! not a part of my life anymore. In some ways we can be more open than we have ever been with each other as the pressure to stick it out is gone. Like I can say good for you that she got to ride a motorcycle for the first time last weekend. All that being said I also need to realize that we are both human. The protectiveness of each other is not going to go away overnight. Part of me dealing with Iraq is realizing the thing I am most ashamed of. I went there with the idea that I am not going to do anything that I will regret for the rest of my life, but when the moment of truth came, I failed myself and our country. Generally I upheld the values and am a good person, but to ignore the fact that I am human and incapable of heinous acts is really lying. Especially since 9/11 I think one of the lessons are we are all human. We are all capable of the heinous acts that we hear on TV and the US media won't show us. But we are also capable to love others so much that we are willing to loose our own life to save the lives of one or many more than ourselves. Our emotions are still reptilian in a sense. And once they are short circuited there is no telling! So keeping that in mind, I need to really ensure that in my deep seated conscious I love her as a sister. because if I were to find out that hanky panky were going on, I don't need to react as if we were Married. The future is the future. I'm afraid right now. There is lots to loose, but there is an amazing oportunity to gain. Yea I try to right things down. I have a piece of paper on my desk that has 2-word statements written, that elicit a comforting response and an ability to self reflect. I'm working on the why? for the compulsive lies, what do I get out of it. I told a guy a 45 minute whopper today on the drive into DC. For those of you not big on city life, commuting is horrible, so there are HOV High Occupancy Vehicle Lanes. Where I am at meaning you have to have 3 people in a car to use them. So I pull up to a parking lot and say where I'm going in DC and get two people (total strangers) to get in my car so that I can use the lanes. I give them a ride for free and I get to not stay in very horrible traffic for a few hours. It is called slugging here in DC, but it is called something else in San Francisco. Anyway on the drive in this morning I told a total stranger a 45 minute whopper? What good is there in telling someone a story like that that I don't even know and will probably never see again. It feeds some sort of need, but what is it. Is it a need for attention, but there are tons of different types of attention. I think my therapist thinks it may feed a need to be "remembered" so I'm dwelling this week on what it takes to be remembered, but how the need is not fulfilled unless my true self is expressed. I know this is off topic, but I don't want you guys to think I sit in therapy and talk about Oh my evil wife how could she do this to me!.... I'm going to therapy not just to get through this turbulent time in my life I'm going for a laundry list of reasons... Figure out who Mike Chppr really is Turn off my "Spidy Sense" Self reflect on where I have come from where I'm at and where I'm going Recognize inherent good Recognize inherent evil Recognize inherent sadness Recognize inherent happiness Not live vicariously through others and turn of my facades of Perverse Sexuality (Military Lies) Tough Guy (Work Lies) Manly Man(Home Lies) ultimately I want to be known for who I am, and I can't be known for that until I discover myself for myself. I'm going to therapy, because I'm genuinely concerned about my mental health and I don't want to be the Vet asking for money at a streetlight in 5 to 10 years. I do want to be happy and fulfilled and I don't think that is too much to ask out of life.

JIzzM, Not to be the bearer of bad news, but who are you fooling, yourself or him. In life there is a certain amount of intimacy, and a certain amount of friendship. You said it yourself ex-sex was the best sex you've ever had. He can hang around, but in reality all he has to do is watch the calendar, know your "cycle" and you are putty in his pants. Friends, (guy/girl ones anyway don't love all over like that watching TV). Test him, go out with his friends and start hitting on one of them or a total stranger, I bet he gets jealous as you are his bootycall. Yes, he has his cake and he is eating it to. Guys don't need sex all the time, but they will hang around and wait for it. If you give it up he is not likely to go looking for it elsewhere. It is like putting cat food on your front porch, soon you will have a cat expecting to be fed. OK, not talking about how you feel, you are repressing yourself. You really just want to feel happy, I've discovered in life, if you repress one emotion you repress them all so in the end your happy face looks just like your mad face and so on. You sound like a peppy early 20 somthings kind of gal. Don't let yourself get hung up on this guy, you need two or more guys pining for you you need options. and you aren't going to get them sitting watching television with this guy. Especially not having sex with him. There is always the I need to work on me and you need to work on you, but in a relationship there is a sort of us need to work on us. Intimacy is your ability to recognize yourself introspectively and share those feelings with others, and not only that, but to connect with their feelings. My recommendation, stand up for yourself, recognize that "He's just not that into you" and find the next lucky guy. Companionship is nice, but LOVE is way better!

BSBH, in the span of 5 hours, 30 calls would be once every 10 minutes, that isn't that bad!!!! I think when I'm trying to call someone I really want to talk to, I think I call them like every 20 seconds for a few minutes set my watch alarm to take a 5 minute break and go at it again for a few minutes.

It is very possible. I feel like it is on the tip of her tongue and she just wants to spill it and get it over with. I'm going to talk with my doctor about getting the full battery of tests to get me checked for STDs. I really don't want to know, I don't know how I will act, I remember on the phone when I was in Iraq, she fessed up to some guy kissing her, she said she withdrew and left the guy hanging, but who knows. Maybe that was to test my jealousy factor. I went nuts for a few days with rageful jealousy. I just have to seal in my emotions that I have the rest of my life to live with myself and she has the rest of her life to live hers out. I actually don't think she would tell me as if it got to her parents she would be crushed, she is from a very religious family with a very high standards of values that they "apparently" live up to. She has a lot of fear of disappointing her father. "a lot" it is really "HUGE!" Yes, I totally want to get a clean split. It is not going to happen overnight nor probably by the time I move out. I understand people taking hits especially over a house. My "spidey" sense is up on edge just thinking about it. I haven't been able to turn it off since returning. And this issue really gets me going. I keep telling myself in my head that if she starts to blurt anything that sounds like a confession, I need to hush her and tell her to text it to me or tell me over the phone. I cannot be crushed with this kind of emotional betrayal to my face. I'm not going to refinance with her jointly. Either she buys me out or I buy her out. I'd like to do it with the separation agreement. This way the divorce is just sign the line. I can use the Realtor for the rental agreement. They can draft one, and I'll take everything in to have JAG look it over. I still need to figure out how to use JAG as a resource. As a reservist, it isn't like I just walk into the guys office. And I'm not sure if we have access to the active duty JAG resources. She is really emotional. Tonight she fixed dinner. Well heated a ready made thing in the oven. She acted on the phone like she was going to eat, but when I got home she said she has become sick to her stomach and she watched me eat 2/3 of my plate. Then she went upstairs and crawled into bed. She didn't go to work today. I think she stayed in bed for most of the day. But heck what do I know? I'm just looking forward to Tuesday nights once I move. Then I can go hang out with some coworkers, I've been invited along and it will be great, tonight I had dog training so after I ate the dog and I went to class. We take his "Canine Good Citizen" Test in two weeks, he is the only dog in the class with a remote chance of passing the test. It sure would be nice to get that certificate. I could add that to the psyciatrist's apartment letter. I was doing reasonably well today until I came home. I'm just sick to my stomach knowing that she is hiding something from me. It would kind of be nice to hire a PI and then if she is cheating I have something to hold over her head instead of play this back and forth I'll trade this for that kind of thing. In the end though I just want to be friends. She knows almost everything about me. I do care about her, and in my deepest of deeps I could forgive her if she had been adulterous. I'm at the point now where even if she started pining for my affection or changed her mind all the sudden. I'm starting my new life! and it doesn't include her as a romantic partner. As far as I'm concerned I love her like a sister now. That is the kind of love that I will have for her always. Can I sever ties and go NC on her, yea, but what does that prove. I can heal, maybe over a longer period of time by having contact with her. She doesn't control me anymore. By me not being able to call her, that limits my options, and is in a way a means of controlling me. I'll have issues and hurts, but the fantastic side of life is I get to rediscover who I am. First starting with psychobabble and then experiencing life in the real world. I talked to the pastor that married us and also did our pre-engagement/pre-marital counseling. He said he thought the way I was responding was healthy, and tracking right along with the grieving process. He says I will probably go through the grieving process once again when I move out but maybe less or more intense. Once I move out I plan on taking the next 6 months to really work through the psychbabble issues. Try and figure out what I want and create healthy defense mechanisms. I don't want to get into another relationship like this one. I want to have several relationships and find likes and dislikes. I want to know what it is like to have chemistry and to fall in love. To be totally into one another. I want to share myself and be known, but first I have to discover who I am. OK I'm off on a tangent. I have the psycho appointment tomorrow. We'll see how it goes. I kind of want to keep my mouth shut and hear her questions. It seems that if I can walk out of there remembering her questions I have tons to work thru the next week. I appreciate your input BSBH I know you think I should just dump the house. She is supposed to be talking this over with her family in regards to co-signing the loan if she wants to buy me out, but link removed showed DC as one of the top 10 "worst" places to buy right now. It was either Peter Lynch or Warren Buffet that said buy when others are fearful and sell when others can't stop talking about it. That is kind of how I feel in regards to the house, plus just managing getting rid of all of our stuff will be a huge task to take on in the dead of winter. That is not something I'm looking forward to. This weekend I think I need to go buy boxes from Uhaul or something. Several guys from work said they would help me move. One even has a trailer. They think my wife is and Evil..... Devil, but She's not 100% evil, maybe just 98%. Dropping a bomb within 60 days of me coming back from Iraq, what was she thinking, she could have gotten herself killed trying a stunt like that! Talk about RISK... Sheesh! I'm out for tonight.

Yes it is normal, because it is like telling a kid in the china shop "don't touch that" Our natural inquisitiveness gets the best of us sometimes. I have a question. for you tobetterdays. This may sound odd, but you used the word cherrished, how would you define that, because I know it is in marriage vows, but I have no idea what that feels like or means. I know you don't want to think about your ex and you are natural to think about her. but if you can give me some reference outside of that. I'd really appreciate it.

Well, I tried to talk with her about the options, I buy her out she buys me out, or we sell outright. If we can break even or gain we sell right now. If not then one of us is going to buy the other out. As I mentioned the above, I don't want to sell right now. I will feel an obligation to help her move, because when she moves that is when the stuff in the middle gets tossed, donated or otherwise. My preference right now is to buy her out. This way I don't feel guilty or worry about her having a place to go and how she gets there. She is still my best friend even though my coworkers and mother HATE her. To me there is 5 catagories, cars, house, bank accounts, and investments. Cars easy she gets the new one I get the old. House, if it is profitable by 10 Grand, my preference is still to hold out, and give her time to figure out what she is going to do in life. I can pay her 5 Grand over time and buy her out even. The point is, do we decide what that value is now, during the separation and put it in my name or do we decide what that value is later during the divorce when the value may be more or less than what it is now. The problem is we both agree we need to refinance now to lower our payment. The question is... Joint refinance, My name, or her name. I kind of like the idea of splitting the stuff slowly. Going through each room over the separation period and deciding who gets what. So the stuff can be split, I want that, no I want that, trade ya, and so on. Hence it may turn out that she gets 85% of the stuff and I get 15%, I don't care, Since I am moving out early I am obviously leaving behind what I do not want. So if I don't want it and she doesn't then we have an obligation together to find a way to get rid of it. She should not be dragging it to the curb all by her lonesome. OK mind draft, while we were talking some guy called her cell phone and she politely said she would call him back. Then she became overcome with emotion about how this week was going to be tough and if she lashes out at me it isn't about us, but some situation that she can't tell me about because she doesn't think I can keep my mouth shut about it. She also says I can crush her right now. I don't see how I can since she holds all the power. There is some kind of interaction with a friend. that is causing her great emotional distress. What am I to think, someone was sexually asaulted, got pregnant, had an abortion, aquired an STD, somone cheated on someone else, I.. dunno. So anyway she is in the other room with the door closed she has the TV on and is having a conversation on the phone. I totally want to evesdrop I want to pry, but what is it worth. Yea we are talking about stuff, but there is a lot more going on in that head of hers and it isn't necessarily dealing about me or her work, but it is affecting both. How do you not pry, She said she may have to go away for a few days to work things out, to something along those lines. How does a guy interpret that in the midst of a separation. I told her I know she is hurting and we are getting a divorce, but if she needs a warm body to hug and hold onto I'm there for her. I hugged her for awhile until she was done. Left the room and closed the door. I feel like I've been cheated on, but in reality I want to believe her words that I haven't. I don't want to know. I just don't. It is my issue that I have to deal with the fact that she leaves to spend the night at friends, but I cannot imagine crashing at my friends pad as much as she is doing. I am angry that she is not spending this time with me trying to work on us splitting or whatever. Should I steal her phone and write down her address book, incoming and outgoing calls etc... Should I try to eavesdrop or is this the panic. fear of the unknown. Are these natural responses or am I loosing it. I'm going crazy, I just know it.

BeStrongBeHappy, You have a lot to say and a lot of it is wise. Here is the thing. I commute 2.5 to 3 hours a day. In the apartment that I am moving into I can cut that to 30 minutes on a bicycle. You are right, she could trash the place or move in with a boyfriend, skip out on the rent, etc... But the fact still remains, we both have perfect credit. I know she intends to move out. If we sell, we kind of end up moving out at the same time. I take all my stuff, she takes all hers and the rest is for ME to haul out to the garbage or Goodwill. I'd much rather take what I think is mine, arrange for what I want and leave it up to her. I'm fairly sure she will move out within 6 months. You are right, but I do know renters law as family work in the industry. I can give her the boot in I think it is 10 days after a missed payment. 30 days later the sherrif shows up with me to evict her. It ruins her perfect credit and much more. Yes it makes the divorce hostile, I don't want it to be that way. But kicking her out to fend for herself feels the same way, plus I feel an obligation to help her move. She has wronged me, I've wronged her, let us put it behind us and figure out how to do this amicably. I've sent the deposit on the apartment, I have a Dr's note for the dog as an emotional assistance animal which is all they need. The no pets place has to let my dog in. Yes we have a yard at the house, but we have a dog park right next to the apartment. And that means I have to go outside at least twice a day. I'm responsible for another being. We are struggling to figure out what we have. We still haven't filed our 2005 taxes as I was in Iraq. I'm hoping that we can sell the house and break even. We have a meeting with the Realator and the Mortgage person on Thursday morning. I think this is where the numbers of acuality will set in. She doesn't want to sell at a loss and end up owing anything. If we can sell at a gain, I'm all for it. But I need to do the loan thing to juggle the finances at least for the next couple of months as now I'm responsible for rent as well as a mortgage. And when I move out, what portion am I entitled to pay to assist her. idealy we can lower the payment enough where she can pay it on her own, but i don't think they will approve her for a loan on her own. Maybe her parents will cosign, but maybe not. We might just be better off lowering the payment putting it in my name and finding renters right from the start, but then again, I feel obligated to help her move. I don't know why, but I just do, I feel like she is making a terrible mistake that she will regret for the rest of her life, but that may just be my way of rationalizing away the concept that this divorce is all about me.

Hey, bud... Twice? All your comments. add up to what I'm going through right now. except my wife of 5 years, 9 in the relationship is walking. She may have cheated while I was away and is afraid to tell. I'll never know nor do I want to. But the truth is from your statements above you are feeling worthless and you have felt worthless when you met. She gave meaning to your life. She knows how to push your buttons and she is probably extremely avoidant while you are probably extremely anxious. It is tough, I don't necessarily recommend couples counseling. I do recomend you go to counseling and figure out what you want. You don't have to leave right away, you can move into the extra bedroom and isolate yourself from any physical contact while you figure out what you want. Use your insurance, most policies cover therapy and find a counselor that you click with, but will push you at the same time to discover who you are and what you are going to get out of life. I've only recently found out in my own life that groveling for someone elses affection is pathetic, and I feel shameful for letting myself do it for so long. I need to forgive myself, rediscover myself and move on. (Said easier than done) Can you work this out, YES. Can you stay together, YES. but maybe she is doing these things to get you to walk out and she will continue so that she doesn't feel like it is her, but that is was always YOU. Don't obsess the other guy. read a book like "Becoming Attached" This gave me tons of things to self reflect upon. I'm dealing with everything better, now that I know a little more about myself. Hang in there, go get the help that you need. And I can honestly say it isn't going to come from having "discussions" with your wife. Also get yourself checked for STDs if you have had sexual contact with her. Not to add anything to worry about, but you need to take care of yourself. Take Care

So the house. Yes it is a declining market. We have a 30 year fixed loan. So one way or the other we have to determine how to make a fair split. This has to go in her name or mine. To be honest I don't think she could get approved to hold the house on her income. If her parents co-sign then maybe and that is still a "Huge" risk for her. If we sell now we will definitly take a loss. So if we take a loss then we split the responsibility of that loss 50/50. So here is the proposition. First comes first. We have to figure out a fair value of the house today. And if there is a profit to be made how much is it. That gets split 50/50. Hence if there is a 10K profit, I would owe her 5K if I take on the house and she would owe me 5K if She takes on the house. Or we both sell, which could take months and a real financial hardship on us both. So this next option. Does this sound fair. We look at the value today. If there would be a loss from selling today, then she transfers the loan into my name at the 5 year ARM and walks away without owing a dime. I thereforeeee have taken all the risk and any future loss or profit lays on my feet. The agreement would be that she pays me rent equivalent to my 5 year ARM rate and she may get a roomate to assist her in doing so. When she decides to leave, I will be responsible for finding renters or selling the house at a time of my choosing. In her rental agreement there also has to be a clause regarding her damiging the house beyond normal wear and tear. This sounds fair to me, and I am likewise willing to transfer the risk to her in the same manner however her parents would probably need to cosign and She may likely not be able to work with the market and wait out the slump. The risk that I am taking is that interest rates will rise astronomically, the market will continue to sour past the 2 year timeframe that I believe we are in. So in that I think that we will have a two year sour, one year stabilization and then over the next two years we will have a normal inflationary increase. This is the risk I take. I can then sell the house before the expiration of the ARM or pass the increase along to my tennants at the time. We have to transfer this liability or rid ourselves of it. This is a huge risk to both of us right now. Stocks I can figure out how to split over time. i.e. 10 shares now means 5 go to me and 5 go to her. If I don't want to sell her 5 shares, then I owe her the appropriate value at the time of her asking. I think she trusts me enough to ride these out to fruition, and she understands that I am making double the current average return on the market. However past performance doesn't preclude future failure. And the summer doldrums can be gut wrenching at times. I don't know, does the house plan sound fair?

Yea, but it is like those "Nationwide" comercials. "Life comes at you fast!" It kills me that I haven't even been back from Iraq for 90 days. I filled out the apartment application last night. I have to get the paperwork from my Doctor regarding my perscribed "Emotional Support Animal" so that my dog can come with me and I'm also cronically depressed, right now is one of the lowest of lows that I have been in a long time. My pal has been there for me and I've cried lots of tears on him and he has given me tons of unconditional love. The house thing needs to be settled quickly. I don't want to be strung along for the next six months or longer. after that it is looking like a date will be set for June 22nd. After sleeping on it, or tossing and turning all night, I think once we split and spend the next month carrying boxes back and forth we will realize what is whos. I'm not attached to much more than the dog and maybe the kitchen table and my firearms. but everything else is just stuff.

BeStrongBeHappy, Thanks your perspective counts. We are trying to get ahold of our realtor, but I think he is out for Thanksgiving Holiday. He may know what is best. I sure don't right now. I knew when we bought that if we held for 5 years we would be OK. This otta teach me ..... Arggh.

brando I think you are right. Is what I definitely need to do is set up a separate account now so that we can split the accounts from where they are now. Not have her hiding away money while I keep depositing. Not that she is doing that. And she wouldn't, but like I said, Cower/VENGEFUL