Jane0815

"Interesting", in what way? Do I come accross as a man-hater? What's an "old-fashioned feminist guy"?

We've had some practical stuff to take care of, but that was way too much contact. I start hoping for a little touch of warmth, and he keeps focusing on himself. Ack.

LOL! I don't disagree that you =deserved= an explanation, nor that you should be treated fairly, nor that she was wrong. You're on the money there. But the way you handled it COULD be detrimental to your future there. It's possible to take the high road in a way that enhances your power; you took the weak approach. You're 24 - I think you'll have to be burned by "taking the high road loudly" a time or two before you get what NJRon is saying here. Maybe he can recommend one of those asian business-wisdom booklets for you.

When do you start? Rodeo-Rider gave super pointers. Unfortunately when I'd just finished school I didn't UNDERSTAND "dress appropriately" - There's a great book about temping ... written by a guy who was a grad student in English, I think. He has EXCELLENT tips about gaining acceptance, getting up to speed on skills etc. Check Amazon. Oh - AVOID going to lunch with anyone from your new workplace, if you can help it. There are people in almost every office who try to make friends of newcomers, and they're not going to make you look good. A positive-constructive way around this, from the book I mentioned, is to set up your lunch breaks so that you meet employed friends of yours working in the area. The author says that this helps with internal acceptance - when people ask what you did for lunch, and you can say "I met up with a friend of mine who's an ad editor at X-Agency", they see that you're in the game, that you have a network.

Well, I had a boss from the UK who was very turned off whenever he got the impression that someone expected a chance b/c of their degree. I got the job there 'cause I was freelancing and one of his minions gave me a project and I did well and ended up getting a job offer and submitting my CV as a formality AFTER being hired. I'm not saying you're presenting yourself wrong - just that a reader's own insecurities COULD get in your way and there's nothing you can do about that. What I'd suggest now is that you do some menial work in the evenings and volunteer in a relevant organisation during the mornings. Work out the money situation so you're not under too much pressure there, then work on your self-marketing. Right now you just need to get contacts and raise your chances of encountering people who will become interested in you BEFORE seeing your CV.

Don't go with a publication yet. Too much capital and marketing involved. I have an idea for you. Will activate my messaging here so you can PM me if you'd like. (No, I'm not going to scam you with an envelope-stuffing scheme! Just don't feel like putting the idea out there for EVERYone when this thread is about YOU.)

NJRon is right here ... you might have 'won' the battle for the position you have now, but you 'lost' against her b/c you made an issue out of something she'll never change. Better would have been to figure out what she wanted and if there was a way to help her get it. Yes, get everything in writing from now on! I make the same mistakes in airing too much critical honesty. Less and less, but still too often. Heh, I should hire NJRon as my shut-up-and-smile coach.

Ah, well, I think you've got a bit of either/or thinking going on there. The others here have rounded it out a bit for you. Right now I seem to meet a lot more men than I did in my 20s. Most of them are ready to settle down and start families, which isn't what I want. Have you heard of the third-date rule? These guys aren't in any hurry for sex - the third date is when they introduce a woman to mommy.

I haven't seen that thread, but I think I know what you're talking about. Here's the thing I suspect you're not clicking with, as far as the feelings of entitlement go: Historically women haven't had much power or influence in relationships. Material indications of the man's attachment to / interest in them were pretty much all they got. This is unfortunately still true in many cases. Not just from the woman's side. I've met MANY men who expected me to give up pretty much everything I've worked for on my own and they truly think that a few presents of jewelry or dinners out - neither of which I've accepted - will do it for me. They presume that being part of their life will make me happy, since the "old deal" says that women need men materially, and they're doing well materially, and thus I should be honored at their interest, which they demonstrate with expensive invitations etc. Sorry, this will NEVER do it for me. If a man is interested in me, I think he'll indicate this by SHOWING interest in spending time with me, in asking what's going on in my life, in thinking of activities that =I= enjoy. (I do all of these things for friends - I'm not expecting a romantic interest to do any more than a friend does.) So when men don't realize that women have their own interests, that women are people who need the same fulfillment (through work, achievement, etc) that men do, and when men expect women to be happy with the "old deal", women who stay in the game tend to demand dinners out, jewelry, flowers, all the old-deal standards. When it goes sour, women fight back in the only way they know: they go after his money. After all, this was his main language for demonstrating his interest in her, and often really the only thing he'd offered her. Generally the woman gets less materially out of an "old deal" relationship than she'd have earned and accumulated on her own. Not all women are like this. But frankly ... those of us who aren't interested in 'stuff' are a lot more complicated. I've gotten pretty cynical about old-deal type guys, especially b/c their math is so wrong. They're the ones who'll come by for dinner and out of "duty" finish what you'd planned as leftovers to take for lunch the rest of the week. Then they complain that you cooked too much. This kind of guy will pick you up to go to his friends' birthday party, and presume he can select wine from my cupboard to bring as his gift, since he was too busy to find something. He'll think nothing of you getting up at 4 AM on a Saturday to drive him to a relative's funeral 7 hours away b/c he's exhausted and can't drive, and then driving him back, and he'll be extremely offended the next weekend when you ask for a few hours of help with something work-related. You know what? When a guy shows interest in me now, I now immediately ask him about something in his field that's relevant for my work or for someone I know. If he acts helpful in any way, I feel like he's interested in =me=. If he brushes it off and asks if I'd like to go out for dinner and to the theater, you know what? I'm not interested. Friends say that this is horribly superficial and demanding of me, and the same friends would have NO problem with me accepting an evening out, that would probably cost the guy a few hundred if I let him pay the entire bill. (I don't - my parents taught me to never let a guy pay.) You can figure out which women want old-deal relationships by not spending much money in the first stages of getting to know someone. The focus should be on the quality of time spent together.

Can only ditto the above advice. "Wanting to stay friends" can also be some women's way to break off the social-obligation part of the relationship without having to give up the 'benefits'. Kind of unfair to the guy who actually wants to get back together and takes this as a sign of interest.

Glad Crazyaboutdogs beat me to making that point. I've seen a =lot= of this in the 20s and early 30s as well. Guest 12345678 is on the money with his assessment that some women have even more than you do, and his suggestion of a prenup is good for everyone. Mr. Right, this trust is worth a heck of a lot. A few years ago, a therapist told my x and me basically the same thing you were told: our personalities and characters were so entirely different, there was no sense in making things work. Well, that trust was there, still is. It's worth a heck of a lot, and neither of us has found it in others since. He has a job that sounds like it makes a lot of money, and a lot of women brought expectations and put pressure on him that made my support of him during hard times dazzle in comparison. What about living-together-apart? Lots of couples - even some with kids - live in different houses or different cities and have excellent relationships. Check out a book called _Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay_ by Mira Kirshenbaum. (Pretty sure on author's name, but check.)

Ah boy you've been "missing out" on some of the churches out there ...

The church thing is what you should stay away from. If you PM me the name of the church she goes to, I can see what denomination etc. it is. Rule of thumb: If it's just warm-fuzzy southern baptist or something, she's allowed to have fun. If it has the name "Bible" in it, stay away.

Sounds good then. BUT keep in mind, a clinic is a good resource if you're in doubt. They're staffed by qualified medical professionals (and well-trained volunteers) - and for all you know, we're just overcaffeinated middle-school-dropout cons surfin' the net on break from chain-gang duty.

2) Does marriage counseling work if he thinks the marriage is practically dead but he is willing to show up for an appointment? Guess I missed this before ... depends actually on the counselor and approach, to some degree. I sent X to a counselor whose workshop I'd attended once. I'd pretty much resigned by then, had moved out with the very thinly-veiled excuse of a project ... in another country. Was sick of being blamed for his ill-at-ease in his own skin, so I told him he needed to go to learn to protect himself from my problems. His motivation: to get her to talk me into having a baby. Ah, well, she was a real shut-up-and-change kind of counselor and was indeed very helpful. He did several sessions alone, got woken up on a lot of levels, then decided it was my turn to get yelled at. Did it "work", eh well ... in the joint sessions she still yelled at him a lot more than she yelled at me. Thanks for the book link Camb. Is Lee Hugh's brother?

I suspect she knows the very very very unlikely bit - it's the 0.00002% chance that's getting to her! I've been through this myself, and numbers aren't too comforting. LOVE this: People call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that distinguish me from a doormat. Do you recall who said this? I was surprised recently at how allergically a poster reacted when I referred to different kinds of feminism. She was horrified at the word. I thought that the definition you use was pretty standard by now ...

Call Planned Parenthood and ask to speak with a counselor about whether "Plan-B" is called for. For the future: If you're taking a "mini-pill" (low-dose), be sure to take it at the same time every day. Make sure he learns to wash his hands. Not OCD, but no risks either. Hang in there. Uh, wow, just realized - 88 is probably your birth year. Um, so you don't remember the Bush Sr. Administration, and Reagan ... sorry, that has NOTHING to do with your worries right now. Someday in 15 years you'll be posting on a board like this and be amused that someone posting was born in 2000 and only knows from history books that there was a Mr. President Clinton.

First off, so glad to hear that you've got activity (paid, no less!) that is keeping you connected with people who value you and keeping you in touch with your skills and talents. Thought: for a marriage, BOTH have to work at it, BOTH have to be committed. You get that, you've said that, you're getting it on paper that YOU are committed. Bah, I have no idea what I was "thinking" with this, basically just saying - he's clearly not on the same page with you, so he's the one who failed the marriage. Um, yeah, hope you get what I mean there. If you can find some support to prepare for grieving this, you'll be that much free-er in the rest of your decision making. You just don't want the hurt and sadness of this (potential) loss to drive your other decisions and confuse the process. You might also find it comforting to look up various women in the Bible who never had children of their own. I bet you'll be surprised at the line-up of ways they "birthed" other fruit of their work and ministry. You might just be called to deliver great and mighty things in another way. If you find that this is the case, a support group of fellow childfree-by-choice Christians could be a great resource for you.

I was in AA for a few years, and what "AA" in general advocates doesn't always apply to what groups or sponsors will encourage a person to do. Marriage counseling can be a great manipulative tool. My parents did a lot of counseling and although they didn't talk about the clients' specifics in front of us, we kids still gathered quite a bit. I had the impression that in 80% of the cases, one partner was using the counseling as a way of shoving blame onto the other. Very frankly: I would take a look at what your life could look like without him. Are you working again?

No universal law here. Ditto what LiMT says. Most of my ex's have tried to stay friends. (No, not in a in-the-pants way - that would have been MY condition for "staying friends".) I don't really care for having many guy friends though. There has to be some common interest for that to happen, and the friendship only lasts as long as the joint activity goes on. Sports or hobby or volunteer work or work or whatever.

Hi Miss Dashwood, I posted this in another thread but don't think you'll see it there so am re-posting here : If you really want varied responses, try putting it on different forums altogether. Here's a relatively broad spectrum for you: link removed - like the name says, men. includes relationship section. link removed - divorce board for under-35s, about equal men-women link removed - answers write-in questions link removed - kinda like ena, presumably diff. ppl link removed link removed link removed 24 isn't a big sample (go Annie - great work rounding up the suspects! I can see you doing that eyes-on-you gesture the FIL does in that Meet the Parents movie) AND ena probably attracts and retains people with similar mindsets, so even if you got 124 respondents here you're not going to get a very broad range of responses. @ annie ... I saw a video clip yesterday of your sig, and I still can't figure it out!

Like 2smart says, practice is a factor. Some kits really don't work at all for me. Now for my legs I use wax that hardens and can be pulled off without strips - I find it's a lot more skin-friendly. Veet makes it, but doesn't market this particular type in the country where I live. Grrr! To the OP - try to find a good cosmetologist and see what s/he recommends.

Age is a factor. Hook-up guys often don't commit to one woman until they want to have kids. Even then, in extreme cases you should expect there'll be action on the side. (Had to wonder what xSIL was really thinking by marrying X's youngest brother, World Player of All Time. They work in the same hospital now, she can keep an eye on him. In the past, she punished any erring of his with a whopper of her own. Last time I saw them, he looked pretty whipped. So there's =that= option, if you =really= dig the guy...) Nova's advice is great - just keep in mind that some guys =know= it's a challenge and do whatever it takes, for however long, jump through all the hoops, score, then are gone. NOT ALL GUYS!!!! Maybe you should just date Nova! You can't drink with him yet, but he's a guy you can talk with ... and I bet he'd take good care of your body too.

A common side effect in men could dampen things a bit.

I'd recommend finding out if he's on beta-blockers. If you've already been to his house and he has prescription bottles out where you can read the names w/o snooping, many beta-blockers' names end in -olol. Personally the age itself isn't an issue, but I have a heck of a lot more respect for a man who's able to have a relationship with a woman roughly his age, with equal achievement, socioeconomic standing and so on. I've gone out a few times with much-older men (e.g. 49 when I was 22), and the immaturity issues (theirs) come out pretty quickly.