Jane0815

Exactly my thought! Another option is having a cosmetician pluck the individual biggest/darkest hairs. Yes, ouch.

Hey a question from left field. Has this happened in other job situations - where you do everything right, but still get into trouble?

If you really want varied responses, try putting it on different forums altogether. Here's a relatively broad spectrum for you: link removed - divorce board for under-35s, about equal men-women link removed - like the name says, men. includes relationship section. link removed - answers write-in questions link removed - kinda like ena, presumably diff. ppl link removed link removed link removed

Oh, I wasn't criticising!

Lonelyinasmalltown is offering you a lot of wisdom for you, Miss D.

Counseling, man. Sounds like you're both holding back. My H was pretty controlling, but he didn't get away with the kind of stuff you describe for very long. Sure, he pulled the "negative interpretation" baloney - and learned not to say that, either. After a year and a half we went to counseling, and she picked up on more subtle controlling stuff I hadn't recognized. Let's say, for sake of argument, it would be fair for her to request that you not put your hands under your clothing in public. (Not saying you've done this, just an example.) There HAS to be a way to work this out so both are okay with it, and neither is playing governess. My ex used to do some stuff that really irked me. We discussed it in private. A lot of things he'd never realized he did, or he didn't realize how frequently, and had NO idea how it came accross. If I'd just whacked him and said STOP!, that would have been inhuman. I explained that his touching his face, picking at dry skin on his nose, scratching behind his ear etc (he did this ALL the time at concerts, in social situations etc) advertised his insecurity to the world. I made it clear that I was there for him, AND that I found it REALLY embarrassing to be in public with someone who was just screaming out how ill-at-ease with himself he was. (Note: these were in situations he had sought out.) He quit the habit. He used to clear his throat all the time, too. That was a toughy, but he reduced it pretty far. When we were going someplace and he had a better idea of the dress code than I did, he told me diplomatically. He had to learn that. So you've really got to show her how she's allowed to treat you, and how not. We don't come into relationships knowing all about how to treat someone else well, and part of it is, for better or for worse, training and learning from each other.

You deserve SO much better - and you're going to get it.

So what does DeNiro say to do if the woman managed to slip the key out of your hand, and you walk around to your side and she's LOCKED the entire car? And if she passes this test, what's the next?

Oh, it doesn't feel like you're jumping on me at all. Your insistence on fair-and-equal standards is laudable! I hesitate to post other practices, b/c I'm guessing you're on the same page and wouldn't want them either, thus it's a non-issue.

Clarification: I meant squeamish about other sexual things. If they disagree on this, there'll probably be further areas of disagreement with regard to practices etc. Not judging it, just saying - it's important to be on the same page.

He's called twice today. Both times about practical stuff that we need to work on, that's okay. I slipped up once after that and called with a dumb question, caught myself and got off the phone quickly though. He mentioned plans for the weekend. Pretty funny - he seems only to have become active/helpful since the weekend discussion of me not putting any more into this.

Let it grow out, and then have it waxed. What grows back will be finer, and once you've kept this up for a few years, there's less and less hair. For moisturizing, try a body oil at night.

Oh, man, a guy who's squeamish about this is going to be squeamish about a lot of things, and he should find a woman with ideas that match his.

I don't like that the guy-friends have offered casual sex. The guy who used the job excuse was pretty lame, too. My take is that casual sex can work when the woman truly just wants sex and thus seeks someone out and initiates it. Quite a few friends / acquaintances have done this at some point. The problem that has come up more frequ. than I'd expect is that the guys in these situations are first thrilled with the idea, then get shocked when it sinks in that she really just wants sex, and then his "performance" suffers. Men want to have open, non-committed, casual sex with a woman who is only sleeping with them and WANTs them as a relationship but doesn't make any trouble about it. So at the end of the day, it's pretty rotten to be a woman out looking for a regular supply of respectful, safe casual sex. Maybe if the woman does some good play-acting, but that's a lot of work.

Wow, you spend a lot of time analyzing him, eh? You are off in never-never land about this. Everyone else is telling you diplomatically, I tried to tell you through example. It's not about brownies or dorm-overnights. It's the concept. Instead of getting how pathetic you're being, you say "oh, no brownies here!" It's about being realistic. Whether he's immature or not, he's married, and not to you. He was NOT enthralled w/ you or he would have waited. Friends of my parents met that way. She didn't seem to notice him as anything other than a teacher, and he didn't show ANY signs of his interest until she was in grad school. His behavior was reality based, and led to a future together. They are the EXCEPTION. You apparently don't get just how common it is in high school to fall for your teacher. And how common it is for teachers to be flattered by this. If you want an older bf, then go get one. Just leave the married teacher alone already, okay? Either that, or go all-out and put up a hyper-analysis blog-shrine to him, and ban comments from those of us who've replied here.

Hon - I think he's keeping you around to stroke his ego. Don't worry, ongoing contact won't undermine his marriage - it'll just keep you in CrazySpace. If he were a FRIEND, he would give you closure and tell you to feel free to contact him in a few years when you've moved on and can look back and laugh at the situation. Wanna hear it from the wife's side? There were a couple of women who kept this kind of contact with X, and it didn't bother me. He liked to keep in touch with people anyway, maybe write an occasional postcard or e-mail and a note for their birthdays. Of course he got a bit of ego boost from hearing from women who'd been into him. Nothing wrong with that either. I pointed out when I thought one woman was jerking him around (example: she threw a huge party and his invitation was postmarked on the day after the party), but I objected to him letting himself be treated badly, not to the contact per se. In the case that reminds me a bit of yours, it turned out there was suffering he hadn't recognized. In retrospect, she'd stopped all contact when her parents received our engagement announcement. Then, after we'd been married 18 months or so, he was on business in her city and called her to see if she'd like to meet for coffee. He was just like that, always worked in personal contacts on business. If he was going somewhere, even if he had a layover between connecting flights, he'd figure out whether he could catch up with someone. Over coffee, she was almost crying. He thought she was just lonely and under a lot of stress. Her insistent offer that he spend the night at her place rather than the hotel didn't strike him as personal - he thought it was just an offer to save him money, and he saw it as a business expense and preferred to stay in the hotel so it was a non-issue. I didn't pick up on any personal interest when he told this, just thought she was overworked and maybe stressed from not meeting her parents' expectations in the marry&breed area. After that she wrote quite a bit, always to his office or his parents' address. He files ALL the letters he receives and occasionally brought home a folder full of her letters. If I'd had any indication of interest on either side, I'm sure I'd have felt curious about the letters, but they were just papers he was filing. As soon as she heard I'd moved out, she pounced. Cards, e-mails, phone calls (he never picked up, so she e-mailed requesting his mobile number), invitations. He was answering maybe one e-mail out of three, and she seemed to take anything short of a restraining order as encouragement. You know, the WIFE was out of the way and all, so he must just be shy and really busy and gosh knows what other reasons she found. I never met her, but I know the twinkle in his eye and special secret smile he had about women who'd once caught his fancy, and this one wasn't in that game. Probably she would have felt a bit uncomfortable if she'd known that he finally rang me up to 1) ask whether I thought he was correct that she was looking for something from him, and not just lonely or presuming he was lonely and trying to play good samaritan, and 2) ask for advice on making it clear that he saw her as just friends. I told him to bake brownies and send her a care package with a note saying he was sharing his favorite comfort food and he wished her strength getting through the lonely times. He wrote that he was doing very well and thanked her for her concern, he was working hard but managing to enjoy some free moments with someone special (I told him, if he doesn't say there's a woman in the picture, she'll keep applying for the job) and he wished that for her as well. NO answer, not even thank-you for the brownies. And he bakes excellent brownies. LONG story short: don't be the one the wife feels sorry for, never mind the one the EX-wife gets called about.

Crap, we're back into daily contact.

@ 2smart - the book didn't strike me as feminist at all. It just doesn't have examples men could relate to much, I don't think. In general I think men's issues are a bit different. Off-topic, I was thinking about your use of the term "eating disorder" ... my take is that however you eat and relate to food serves some function for you. Getting help and self-comfort, through whatever means, is a sign of strength and will to survive. Freedom came for me when I started to respect the service that food had offered, and was grateful instead of frustrated. When I identified the functions food played, I was able to add options without asking the food-use to go away. Then food became just another method/tool in the box of resources, equal in value to all the others.

It depends. If the right words come out of his mouth (cheers to shes2smart) and the right actions follow, a lot of different things can seem attractive. Sex is hugely important to me, so anything that will interfere significantly with that is a downer. Recently met a guy who was just a little too baroque for my preferences. It wasn't a question of =looks= but of endurance and, em, positions and all that. We'd had a lot of fun (met at a seminar) and he acted very interested in further contact, but based purely on my projections of how his body would play out in bed, I shifted into friendly-distant mode and had "run out of business cards." Then again, there were a few small comments he'd made that had put me off. It wasn't really about his body. There are two sides, both true: - physical connection is important, and people generally have a feel for what will work for them - "body issues" are never about the body, whether yours or anyone else's. I wish there were a male version of "When Women Stop Hating Their Bodies" ...

A site per se can't really cause problems - it'll just point to problems that are there. When I was living with X, I spent a lot of time in different forums. It wasn't his style of communicating, but he accepted that it worked for me. Even when he knew I was posting about issues I had with him (well, esp. with the way he handled his family) he knew I was careful to keep things relatively anonymous, and he saw that I was getting constructive help. The only time an internet site caused problems was when I checked something personal on his work computer ... and accidentally clicked a link that cached a couple of porn slideshows in his browser files. I told the IT guy about it myself and asked for help being sure everything was clean, so no trouble for X, but still.

Would your mom go to a counselor with you? If she has problems with your sexuality, SHE has problems. The "outness" issue is tough. For some people it's political and part of their path and they see no reason to conform to societal expectations or "hide" anything. Sort of like hets kissing in public: this is not something I'm into at all, and my X and I were very much on the same page. I met someone who thought I was =completely= uptight and "had issues". As I write this I'm trying to google a childhood friend. Gay rights are a part of her life. I'm not sure that she would understand that, for some people it's a personal thing, any more than that one guy would ever understand that not everyone has to want to kiss on the street. I guess the key is whether she understands and accepts your views and needs ... and I bet there are ways of finding out whether she has that capacity, before you get involved.

Wondering what gem he'll come up with today ...

Today he called and offered to do frequent check-ins to help me get through part of a project. I accepted. Really need to find another source for this.

Good that he's in therapy. And - some men can be a bit unrealistic about their real chances. That girl in the elevator is NOT interested in him, but he doesn't think about that. Your guy has a LOT of growing up to do, and it's going to need something tougher than warm-fuzzy NYC talk-therapy. He reminds me of how my xH used to be. Gosh, I wish X would answer forum posts like this (he doesn't do the on-line discussion thing at all) b/c I bet the best answers would come from men who've been there and changed.

Crapola, that was him on the phone. More of his family stuff. Why am I always there for him when he needs someone, but I have to go through things all alone, and he gets irritated if I ask for any support? It's not all black-white, of course. In March when my father had surgery and I was on a business trip, X was the one I called. If something had gone wrong (it was 50/50) and I'd needed to fly back, I could have driven to X's, he'd have gone with me to my place and helped me pack and then driven me to the airport. But he's really only willingly there for me when it's dramatic. And still, being asked to be there for him was the only connection we had, for so long. Today it was interesting to hear about a few things, but 10 minutes would have sufficed; instead we talked for way too long, over an hour total. I have my own stuff to do, and he's not ever interested in that or supportive of that unless I beg or things have reached critical state. At least, today I called a few people who might be able to take some work off my plate. It's odd. He said that he actually told his parents today about having lied to his father and to me to avoid conflict about the post-nup. We argued about that yesterday - I said that him saying that out loud was essential if I we're supposed to have any kind of respect-based friendship. He'd always made the excuse that they wouldn't understand. I didn't care what they thought - I just wanted him to SAY out loud that he had LIED, to avoid conflict. I don't know what he actually said. But he claimed that he'd said a lot of tough things to them this afternoon, and that he was surprised that they'd accepted them. Whatever. I =hate= the nervous, shaky feeling I get when I get involved in conversations about any of them and their 'ick'. They looked down on my family, for no good reason whatsoever - they just presumed they were better. At the brunch after the civil wedding, my father played with my xFIL a bit ... xFIL was explaining something, presuming nobody knew. (A favorite pasttime of his. Say "I'll have vanilla" and he'll start explaining why bourbon vanilla is called bourbon vanilla, smugly confident he's doing you a world of favors by enlightening you that little bit. Now you'll be able to enjoy your dessert, not just tonight, but at every meal for the rest of your life.) My father's down-to-earth manner and really ugly plaid shirts don't yell "prep school", and I suppose if English isn't your native language, you'd miss a lot of clues. He' s always building something, so I suppose you could conclude that that's all he can do because he's not educated to desk-job level. That's what X's parents thought, and they treated my parents accordingly. (I wasn't offended that they thought my family was low-class - I was offended at how arrogant they were toward people they thought of as less cultured.) Anyway my dad led his father on a bit, asking questions that got xFIL to explain more things. No idea why I'm typing about that, I need to work.