Going in Circles

[reinventmyself]

I think Dougie enjoys his complaining. He enjoys lamenting his (perceived) fate in life.

 

If he were to succeed with a woman, he'd have to give up his complaining. And he likes his complaining. It makes him feel good, plus it gets him the attention of umpteen people on the internet (not sure if he's using other message boards).

 

 

off topic somewhat, but I have gf who complains relentlessly about her life, but much like Dougie will not take one ounce of the advice she seeks and continues to be a victim and complain. I was beyond frustrated with her until I remembered that people do what works for them. If they weren't getting something out of it, they wouldn't do it. It's not my place to figure what that very 'thing' is but it's freeing to let go of advising her and just nod when she starts to play that endless tape of whoa.

[Moontiger]

I just realized, a few years ago there was the female equivlent of Dougie on this site. Username was cadmiumblue:

[IAmFCA]

I just realized, a few years ago there was the female equivlent of Dougie on this site. Username was cadmiumblue: ]

 

Cool! Maybe they can help each other accept themselves.

[Capricorn3]

Ok peeps, can we please keep this respectful. No doubt many people are very frustrated and if that's the case, then it is best to simply back off and not reply or get involved. Thanks peeps!

[Dougie_D]

missed this subtext somewhere. I will tell you my exhusband wasn't into kissing. And it was hard to feel connected emotionally, hard to believe he was attracted to me, etc. I could be in a relationship where there was kissing, but I could not be in a relationship where there was sex and zero kissing. It is a sign of not being comfortable with intimacy beyond the physical.

 

Hmmm.. That makes more sense to me. It's probably the "intimate" part that I'm not comfortable with them rather then just the physical. I haven't been exposed to enough situations on even how to be intimate. Maybe that's why I would feel better knowing the person for awhile to jump into those situations... Somehow I come off not intimate enough where women can't tell if I'm attracted to them

[Dougie_D]

What does it mean to be intimate anyways? I do want to say, when that stripper kissed me, I went back a few months later looking for her to "try it again" but I never saw her again. I was horny at the time but not sure if I was attracted to her in general.

Also, the girl I went on dates with?...I wasn't really attracted to her. But the whole dating experience was good for me.

Maybe I have a high level expectancy of who I'm attracted too? Those girls exist, I know it, but people have said they are out of my league.

[Dougie_D]

This question is for all the men out there...

Have you ever been intimate with a girl you didn't find attractive?

[IAmFCA]

Hmmm.. That makes more sense to me. It's probably the "intimate" part that I'm not comfortable with them rather then just the physical. I haven't been exposed to enough situations on even how to be intimate. Maybe that's why I would feel better knowing the person for awhile to jump into those situations... Somehow I come off not intimate enough where women can't tell if I'm attracted to them

 

Bingo. Good job, D. This intimacy avoidance is a key part of your story.

 

Question: Do you accept that you are imperfect, never will be perfect, and that the same is true for others?

[notalady]

What does it mean to be intimate anyways? I do want to say, when that stripper kissed me, I went back a few months later looking for her to "try it again" but I never saw her again. I was horny at the time but not sure if I was attracted to her in general.

Also, the girl I went on dates with?...I wasn't really attracted to her. But the whole dating experience was good for me.

Maybe I have a high level expectancy of who I'm attracted too? Those girls exist, I know it, but people have said they are out of my league.

 

Do you find Asian women attractive? This is going to sound a bit racist lol but coming from an Asian culture, I know that a lot of Asian women (that actually grew up under that cultural influence) date in a different way than Caucasians, including more likely to start off as more "friends" like and happy to take longer for things to get physical. One of my female friends didn't have sex with her boyfriend (now husband) until they dated for 6 months (they were both virgins in their mid to late 20s, it wasn't for health concerns), kissing took a bit longer than what I'm used to to happen as well. They may be less likely to expect you to make a move early on and less likely to misinterpret it as you are not interested if you didn't (ie you may have more time to wait until you feel comfortable). There are also more of them with little / limited dating / relationship experience well into their mid to late twenties (I know a pretty big number of Asian women like this, especially in comparison to my Caucasian friends), so you may find that more relatable and you're starting off on a similar level relationship wise.

 

But of course these ARE generalisations, I just know many Asian that fall into that category. This is most certainly not the case all the time and especially if they grew up in a western country, these are much less likely to be true and they are probably used to the way dating works in these countries. But I think if you find them attractive and don't think the cultural difference is something you need to worry about at this stage, you can try meeting and dating people from Asian cultural backgrounds.

 

I've known a number of guys who had not much luck with Caucasian women and great luck with Asian women. Most certainly not because the women have lower standards, but I think it's just a different dating mentality and look at different criteria.

[Blue Spiral]

This question is for all the men out there...

Have you ever been intimate with a girl you didn't find attractive?

 

No, but I kissed one I wasn't attracted to, and it was not fun.

[Fudgie]

This question is for all the men out there...

Have you ever been intimate with a girl you didn't find attractive?

 

No because there's no point. If the attraction isn't there, even after spending time talking together and getting to know each other, then it will never be there.

[tiredofvampires]

This is why Dougie's threads "go in circles." Because we get to the root of the issue, and then Dougie takes it back to any one of the symptomatic issues and surface issues about his struggle with women.

 

I'm going out on a bold limb to say that unless the conversation changes, and Dougie, you're willing to stick with the CORE ISSUES, none of these rehashes in variations about kissing, dating, attraction, flirting styles, physical issues, etc. is going to be anything other than a waste of time.

 

Dougie, you said this:

 

I already know my deeper issue. I lack the ambition. I lack the passion. I lack the drive. I lack the motivation. It's honestly probably genetics, and some type of neurogical thing going on that's causing this. Trust me, I want to have all that stuff but I keep telling myself it's not even worth trying. Music is the only aspect of my life that keeps me motivated to pursue something.

 

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT THESE DEEPER ISSUES?

 

I'll repost my response to this, and these questions stand:

 

So if you keep telling yourself it's not even worth trying, why wouldn't you address this before you ask for advice? THIS IS THE ABSOLUTE CORE ISSUE FOR YOU, DOUGIE.

 

If it's not even worth trying, what advice would you ever take?

 

If it's not even worth trying, can you see how that would apply to anything you want, how defeating that is?

 

If it's not even worth trying, no self-improvement strategy can or will work.

 

And if it's not even worth trying, how can you even blame your genetics? You say you aren't making excuses, but if you DON'T EVEN THINK IT'S WORTH TRYING, and all those lacks you listed then flow from that, how do you have any basis to blame your genes?

 

If you say, "What's the use?" to life, it will say, "What's the use?" back to you and give you nothing.

 

If you give up on yourself, life will give up on you. Nothing put in, nothing comes out.

 

How is that your genes? That is a cheap shot at not facing this.

 

Do you feel "telling yourself it's not even worth trying" is something out of your control? Does "telling yourself something" come from your DNA?

 

IMHO, all other discussion items should be off the table until these things are addressed, because right now, what's going on in your threads is that we get a glimpse of a giant gaping, infected wound becoming gangrene, and then the topic turns back to which product will work best on pimples.

 

"Oh, this is THE source of the rotting flesh smell! OH WELL! You can cover that up again now, eew."

 

"Now where were we -- do you use ProActiv or Neutrogena on your zits?"

 

And so it goes.

 

The important stuff is like sand through the fingers. As if incidental.

 

My fellow posters, I call upon you to boycott (lol) any subject other than Dougie's need for therapy and his deep, long-standing issues that preceded his problems with women -- spelled out in the crux of the problems, in that most important post in this whole thread, and the only one that is going to count towards his progress. Allllllll the rest (fear of intimacy, unrealistic expectations, social disconnect, kissing aversion, etc.) is spin-off from that. Everything else is elaborate distraction and either conscious or unconscious diversion. He will not heal unless this conversation changes to reflect this focus, because Dougie, what you wrote there is not a footnote, it's THE CAUSE of ALL your problems. You keep asking as if it's all a mystery to you -- it's not a MYSTERY, it's all right there. Haha, j/k, who am I (and of course, it's your journal, your thread, so you can do anything you want with it).

 

In the spirit of an "intervention", lol...

[tiredofvampires]

Just one thing though, about the escort thing, to respond to that.

 

First, I agree that the "surrogate sex" therapist idea would be good -- I was trying to remember what they were called. Except that I don't see it as much different from a sex worker. You're still paying someone to help you through the ropes of sex. So Dougie, if you considered paying a "surrogate sex" person, which you said you did, you can just as well consider an escort.

 

I highly doubt there are many therapists with legit credentials and reputations among colleagues who would mix actual sex with therapy. Sex surrogacy is off the beaten path of therapy, ala "sex coach." But you can find anything in L.A., so...

 

--- It would ABSOLUTELY make me feel worthless and depressed....even worse than I feel normally. The reason is about pride. How pathetic is that a 35 year old man would have to hire an escort just to learn how to kiss? I can't take that to my grave.

 

I actually think it's less pathetic to take some action towards your goal with an escort than to keep doing nothing, as you're doing now. And I do consider your getting a bit of physical experience just for the mental shift that it will bring as better than the eternal stagnation you're engaging in now.

 

Seeing a prostitute isn't the worst thing in the world -- if you know why you're doing it and have an objective. (And I'm very surprised, you, Blue Spiral, of all people, would argue against that, with your unconventional, opportunistic, and transactional views of sex. Fancy that.)

 

Who are you afraid of? Why the need for pride? No one ever has to know about this, and if you never get past base 1 with another woman again, how would a round of kissing with an escort matter in the scheme of things? People have done worse things. You're not hurting anyone. You're paying for a kiss. Which probably has happened more than once on the playground in 3rd grade.

 

It's all about how you frame things. All of life is.

 

You're not ready for a "real kiss" and the questions/comments you put out here suggest that when the moment comes, you're paralyzed by fears about how to even do it.

 

As for the issues about her manipulating you, I wouldn't worry about that because if she's being well-paid, it's likely she won't do something to jeopardize your patronage. You don't need to hang on her every word, you just need to have a kiss and work it, and see from there. If you can go back looking for a stripper, you can do this.

 

I just think anything is more respectable than what you're doing now for/to yourself.

 

But again, this is a way secondary issue, and my post above stands.

[Dougie_D]

Bingo. Good job, D. This intimacy avoidance is a key part of your story.

 

Question: Do you accept that you are imperfect, never will be perfect, and that the same is true for others?

 

Yes, but I feel like my imperfections are what others can't handle maybe? So, many women will look for someone who has less of those imperfections.

 

And besides, my idea of perfection might be different from everyone else. Not sure what you are really asking me.

[Batya33]

Yes, but I feel like my imperfections are what others can't handle maybe? So, many women will look for someone who has less of those imperfections.

 

And besides, my idea of perfection might be different from everyone else. Not sure what you are really asking me.

 

Yes, if you have that negative attitude that may be a flaw -the negative attitude I mean -that might hurt you from the starting gate. The negative energy/attitude radiates out - in the hundreds of dates I had (let alone all the going to singles events) that attitude was the main reason I didn't pursue anything with the person - and it didn't matter if he tried to hide it by smiling/laughing, faking it -to me it was clear and a clear turn off. Please don't turn this around to say I expected a positive attitude all the time -far from the truth -but when the first impression had that negative vibe/attitude, I was done.

[Dougie_D]

Do you find Asian women attractive? This is going to sound a bit racist lol but coming from an Asian culture, I know that a lot of Asian women (that actually grew up under that cultural influence) date in a different way than Caucasians, including more likely to start off as more "friends" like and happy to take longer for things to get physical. One of my female friends didn't have sex with her boyfriend (now husband) until they dated for 6 months (they were both virgins in their mid to late 20s, it wasn't for health concerns), kissing took a bit longer than what I'm used to to happen as well. They may be less likely to expect you to make a move early on and less likely to misinterpret it as you are not interested if you didn't (ie you may have more time to wait until you feel comfortable). There are also more of them with little / limited dating / relationship experience well into their mid to late twenties (I know a pretty big number of Asian women like this, especially in comparison to my Caucasian friends), so you may find that more relatable and you're starting off on a similar level relationship wise.

 

But of course these ARE generalisations, I just know many Asian that fall into that category. This is most certainly not the case all the time and especially if they grew up in a western country, these are much less likely to be true and they are probably used to the way dating works in these countries. But I think if you find them attractive and don't think the cultural difference is something you need to worry about at this stage, you can try meeting and dating people from Asian cultural backgrounds.

 

I've known a number of guys who had not much luck with Caucasian women and great luck with Asian women. Most certainly not because the women have lower standards, but I think it's just a different dating mentality and look at different criteria.

 

Race doesn't matter to me. I can be attractive to an Asian woman for sure, but she has to have qualities of a Caucasian I guess. Like she has to be like 3rd/4th generation.. basically what you said, grown up in a western country. I never really thought about too much. And that goes with all races or ethnic groups. Oh and trust me, because I'm a white male, many people have suggested me to go for Asians for the same reason.

[Dougie_D]

This is why Dougie's threads "go in circles." Because we get to the root of the issue, and then Dougie takes it back to any one of the symptomatic issues and surface issues about his struggle with women.

 

I'm going out on a bold limb to say that unless the conversation changes, and Dougie, you're willing to stick with the CORE ISSUES, none of these rehashes in variations about kissing, dating, attraction, flirting styles, physical issues, etc. is going to be anything other than a waste of time.

 

Dougie, you said this:

 

 

 

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT THESE DEEPER ISSUES?

 

I'll repost my response to this, and these questions stand:

 

 

 

IMHO, all other discussion items should be off the table until these things are addressed, because right now, what's going on in your threads is that we get a glimpse of a giant gaping, infected wound becoming gangrene, and then the topic turns back to which product will work best on pimples.

 

"Oh, this is THE source of the rotting flesh smell! OH WELL! You can cover that up again now, eew."

 

"Now where were we -- do you use ProActiv or Neutrogena on your zits?"

 

And so it goes.

 

The important stuff is like sand through the fingers. As if incidental.

 

My fellow posters, I call upon you to boycott (lol) any subject other than Dougie's need for therapy and his deep, long-standing issues that preceded his problems with women -- spelled out in the crux of the problems, in that most important post in this whole thread, and the only one that is going to count towards his progress. Allllllll the rest (fear of intimacy, unrealistic expectations, social disconnect, kissing aversion, etc.) is spin-off from that. Everything else is elaborate distraction and either conscious or unconscious diversion. He will not heal unless this conversation changes to reflect this focus, because Dougie, what you wrote there is not a footnote, it's THE CAUSE of ALL your problems. You keep asking as if it's all a mystery to you -- it's not a MYSTERY, it's all right there. Haha, j/k, who am I (and of course, it's your journal, your thread, so you can do anything you want with it).

 

In the spirit of an "intervention", lol...

 

If we can agree this is my core problem, you kept on asking me questions. I wasn't looking for questions. I was looking for advice. What ADVICE or "EXERCISES" can you propose to convince myself anything is worth trying? I'm tired of trying and failing. Just because you fail, doesn't mean you are not going fail twice. You can fail millions of times.. that is extremely tiring. So when that happens I tend to look elsewhere. That's why I try to find advice "out of the box" and not generic per say. A I look for advice to see either: what I was thinking in my head would be the general consensus (validation) OR something I've never thought of. VALIDATION is HUGE for me.

[Dougie_D]

Just one thing though, about the escort thing, to respond to that.

 

First, I agree that the "surrogate sex" therapist idea would be good -- I was trying to remember what they were called. Except that I don't see it as much different from a sex worker. You're still paying someone to help you through the ropes of sex. So Dougie, if you considered paying a "surrogate sex" person, which you said you did, you can just as well consider an escort.

 

I highly doubt there are many therapists with legit credentials and reputations among colleagues who would mix actual sex with therapy. Sex surrogacy is off the beaten path of therapy, ala "sex coach." But you can find anything in L.A., so...

 

 

 

I actually think it's less pathetic to take some action towards your goal with an escort than to keep doing nothing, as you're doing now. And I do consider your getting a bit of physical experience just for the mental shift that it will bring as better than the eternal stagnation you're engaging in now.

 

Seeing a prostitute isn't the worst thing in the world -- if you know why you're doing it and have an objective. (And I'm very surprised, you, Blue Spiral, of all people, would argue against that, with your unconventional, opportunistic, and transactional views of sex. Fancy that.)

 

Who are you afraid of? Why the need for pride? No one ever has to know about this, and if you never get past base 1 with another woman again, how would a round of kissing with an escort matter in the scheme of things? People have done worse things. You're not hurting anyone. You're paying for a kiss. Which probably has happened more than once on the playground in 3rd grade.

 

It's all about how you frame things. All of life is.

 

You're not ready for a "real kiss" and the questions/comments you put out here suggest that when the moment comes, you're paralyzed by fears about how to even do it.

 

As for the issues about her manipulating you, I wouldn't worry about that because if she's being well-paid, it's likely she won't do something to jeopardize your patronage. You don't need to hang on her every word, you just need to have a kiss and work it, and see from there. If you can go back looking for a stripper, you can do this.

 

I just think anything is more respectable than what you're doing now for/to yourself.

 

But again, this is a way secondary issue, and my post above stands.

 

None of that would help me find dates... so why would I pursue it right now? If I was dating someone for awhile and I was still timid, then having a "teacher" (the escort or surragate) on the side would make sense for my "big night". If I have enough money to makeout with an escort, why NOT just continue with the escort and not worry about finding a date elsewhere. She would basically become my "partner". Kind of what "sugar babies" are. You think those men go around on dating sites looking for potential dates?

[agent1607307371]

She would basically become my "partner". Kind of what "sugar babies" are.

 

I doubt you could afford to have a sex worker give up her other clients Dougie.

[Blue Spiral]

Seeing a prostitute isn't the worst thing in the world -- if you know why you're doing it and have an objective. (And I'm very surprised, you, Blue Spiral, of all people, would argue against that, with your unconventional, opportunistic, and transactional views of sex. Fancy that.)

 

My two reasons for being against it:

 

1. Um, it's against the law. Dougie, I advise you not to do anything that could get you thrown in jail. I mean, I think that'd go without saying, but...

 

2. Dougie is twenty years behind average people in terms of relationship experience and sexual experience. There's no way he can make up the former, but he can at least start to make up the latter. However, paying for it isn't going to solve anything outside of "technically" giving him experience. I don't know that "I had sex a few times with a pro" is going to be a huge leg-up over "I've never had sex within the context of a naturally-developed relationship." Certain things would still be alien to him. If you want to teach an animal to hunt, you don't throw it meat, you make it go out and find some for itself.

 

I don't think that therapy is going to help him get laid, though. I've known plenty of screwed-up guys that could get women--and I'm one of 'em. He could "fix his attitude" about women and still be involuntarily celibate. (Granted, the therapy advice sort of proves my earlier point, which is that the advice being given to him primarily helps women, and not him. Isn't it interesting that men are always told that, if we want to do better with women, we need to "correct" our attitude about them...and when that doesn't help us get laid, which is why we were asking for help in the first place, women express shock and outrage that we actually expected to get something from our behavior! When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, and when all you want to do is strengthen your own gender's position, the best solution to any problem, apparently, is to make the other gender put your needs ahead of theirs. I am here to tell you that "putting women first" is not a great strategy for getting laid. In fact, a man utilizing a better attitude about women in order to get what the man wants almost sounds like the dreaded nice guy tactic, does it not? The horror! Let's give Dougie advice that helps him practically, not with airy emotional crap.)

 

Dougie's real problem, in my opinion, is that he isn't the type of guy that most women are attracted to. I don't think that a person can change core elements of their personality--life may change it for you, but I don't think a person can change it on purpose. Please note: from what I can tell, Dougie isn't unhappy with his current personality, except for the part where women don't like it. I don't think he can change it, and I don't think he should, either. If he makes himself miserable by making changes he doesn't like, and all he gets out of it is some unattractive girlfriend? Ehh. .I think he's better off making an exhaustive search for the type of women that actually would like a guy like him. There aren't many, but I'm sure they're out there.

[reinventmyself]

 

I don't think that therapy is going to help him get laid, though. I've known plenty of screwed-up guys that could get women--and I'm one of 'em. He could "fix his attitude" about women and still be involuntarily celibate. (Granted, the therapy advice sort of proves my earlier point, which is that the advice being given to him primarily helps women, and not him. Isn't it interesting that men are always told that, if we want to do better with women, we need to "correct" our attitude about them...and when that doesn't help us get laid, which is why we were asking for help in the first place, women express shock and outrage that we actually expected to get something from our behavior! When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, and when all you want to do is strengthen your own gender's position, the best solution to any problem, apparently, is to make the other gender put your needs ahead of theirs. I am here to tell you that "putting women first" is not a great strategy for getting laid. In fact, a man utilizing a better attitude about women in order to get what the man wants almost sounds like the dreaded nice guy tactic, does it not? The horror! Let's give Dougie advice that helps him practically, not with airy emotional crap.)

.

 

No one goes to therapy to get help getting laid and therapy doesn't teach a man to acquiesce to women or strengthen gender positions.

It's neither gender biased and based on putting women first either.

Therapy will however address a person's self esteem, self defeating attitudes, it explore levels of intimacy and relationship styles.

Working on your self esteem doesn't turn you in to that 'dreaded nice guy' but to the contrary.

 

If Dougie could be introspective about some of the very things that get in his way, getting laid as you put it may be a by product of having gone.

 

Besides, I am not clear what Dougies agenda is at times. If he's just wanting to get laid or have a relationship with a woman.

[IAmFCA]

Dougie, plain and simple: find a place where low energy music-oriented women hang out. Hang out at that place. Hang out at a music store. A rehearsal studio. A jam bar with open mike night.

[Blue Spiral]

No one goes to therapy to get help getting laid

 

And that's why he doesn't need to do it!

 

Therapy will however address a person's self esteem,

 

His lack of self-esteem is a symptom, not a cause. He could feel great about himself and still get rejected by women, because they don't like his low-effort, low-ambition self (which he's perfectly happy with).

 

I'm just guessing, but, when your preferred gender ignores you for twenty-plus years, it probably screws with your head. I was only ignored by them during my teenage years, and look at how bad I am. I can't even imagine what Dougie must be going through. Finally being able to procure sex (through his own skill, not money) will take care of like 90% of his self-esteem problems. Seriously, ask any man about their self-esteem level before having had sex, and after. A man that has never been able to get sex is doomed to have low self-esteem (unless he's asexual).

 

There are hundreds of millions of screwed-up guys in relationships and marriages, right now. They probably need therapy, yeah, but it didn't stop them from getting with women. And Dougie doesn't even need to worry about getting that far, yet; it's a little too advanced for him. He just needs to get to the "starter relationship/sex" stage that most people his age were at twenty years ago. If teenagers can do that, surely he can, too--and without some therapist looking under the hood. If he waits until he deals with all of his issues before he gets into a relationship, he could be waiting a few decades.

[tiredofvampires]

On prostitution:

 

2. Dougie is twenty years behind average people in terms of relationship experience and sexual experience. There's no way he can make up the former, but he can at least start to make up the latter. However, paying for it isn't going to solve anything outside of "technically" giving him experience. I don't know that "I had sex a few times with a pro" is going to be a huge leg-up over "I've never had sex within the context of a naturally-developed relationship." Certain things would still be alien to him. If you want to teach an animal to hunt, you don't throw it meat, you make it go out and find some for itself.

 

If you read my posts about this subject, you'll see that I advised Dougie to get experience kissing, not having sex, with an escort. Why? Because he couldn't seem to get past that step and wrote pages of questions and concerns about that one act, all amounting to the same kind of adolescent fears I had before I had my first kiss. He was advised to practice with a pillow, and I think practicing on a live person who also has a tongue and some of the things he said freak him out, like saliva, and facing other things that scare him, like having his jaw hurt to the point of crying, are worth doing some dry runs on. And I seriously doubt finding an escort in LA to kiss for an hour is going to land him in jail, lol, but if it's that worrisome, he can save up some money and take it to Nevada, which isn't far away.

 

This is no different than a kid having a bike with training wheels before getting on the 2-wheeler. Or me practicing my speech in front of friends before a huge live audience. Or driving to a place that I'm unfamiliar with the day before an event, to know where it is (I have fears of getting lost and being late, freeways, etc.) It doesn't matter if the "practice" shot has all the same qualities of the "real" experience, what it does is change the grooves in your brain. You brain encodes a sense of "ah, I now have a map of what this looks/feels like" and then some confidence to take it to another level is established. This is brain science in action.

 

It won't teach him how to attract more women, get a relationship or keep one, etc. It will only nudge him as far as not being so quick to pull away from a woman wanting to kiss him, ruin his date and chance with her, and come here asking all kinds of mechanics about how a kiss works, saying spit freaks him out.

 

If spit freaks you out, you can forget any aspect of dating or relationships, period, because that's what you're eventually going to have to deal with. So this is about thinking ahead and finding a way to overcome these adolescent reactions, otherwise, it's pointless to try to get dates.

 

The other alternative is to keep getting dates off Tinder and trying and trying each time with women who aren't paid, and that's a great idea if you can do that, Dougie. But you said you have 2 dates a year, if you're lucky. So if you have that one shot a year, I can see how that one kiss would be awful. That's a lot of pressure to think you're suddenly able to kiss someone. Just the thought of it makes ME feel panicked. But by all means, if you want to play the numbers game, go on Tinder, and target cougars in their 50's, and say, "I'm a late bloomer looking to be taught the ropes. Will u help me?" and you'll probably find some takers.

 

If you don't like that idea either, and want "real" dates with women you're attracted to, you have two ways of achieving that:

 

1. Revisiting all your 1000's of old threads for ideas

2. PMing Blue Spiral (and it sounds like he does have some really special insider male information, so that sounds like your key. I'd take him up on it. I'd love to see these threads undergo a mysterious transformation, myself!)

 

Those are your alternatives. There are no others.

 

I don't think that therapy is going to help him get laid, though. I've known plenty of screwed-up guys that could get women--and I'm one of 'em. He could "fix his attitude" about women and still be involuntarily celibate. (Granted, the therapy advice sort of proves my earlier point, which is that the advice being given to him primarily helps women, and not him. Isn't it interesting that men are always told that, if we want to do better with women, we need to "correct" our attitude about them...and when that doesn't help us get laid, which is why we were asking for help in the first place, women express shock and outrage that we actually expected to get something from our behavior! When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, and when all you want to do is strengthen your own gender's position, the best solution to any problem, apparently, is to make the other gender put your needs ahead of theirs. I am here to tell you that "putting women first" is not a great strategy for getting laid. In fact, a man utilizing a better attitude about women in order to get what the man wants almost sounds like the dreaded nice guy tactic, does it not? The horror! Let's give Dougie advice that helps him practically, not with airy emotional crap.)

 

I'm just going to be repeating what Reinvent has said, but clearly, you don't know what therapy is like or is about if you think it has anything to do with "putting women first." I haven't heard such a strange take on it in my whole life. There are plenty of male psychologists, you know, and they aren't all teaching men how to be better doormats to women. What a bizarre notion, especially when you go back and look at the core issues Dougie has recognized he has. He has no ambition, passion, drive, motivation in life and asks himself what's the point of even trying. As I stated in my post a few pages back about this, therapy is what he needs to explore what happened to him that PRECEDED his problems with women. As I see Dougie, and the early experiences he has recounted in his many threads, his family was extremely dysfunctional, sent him continuous messages of being defective, ugly, inadequate, incompetent, and worthy of shame. They also infantilized him and never taught him to find his strengths and capitalize on those. So now we have an adult man who doesn't believe in himself, anything about his abilities, who probably has an entire full-length feature script of negative self-talk that is running the show, and this has expressed itself in everything from his disinterest in passing his courses in college and being more interested in material security, to a feeling of self-agency around self-improvement, to his ultimate self-sabotaging behaviors with women. Even these threads are self-sabotaging, because he asks questions but runs from the answers. His millions of excuses are about giving up on himself, not even believing he deserves success, because he has on a certain level, rejected himself.

 

To compensate for this, he's doing a lot of things to distract himself. Including asking the same questions over and over. It appears to be doing something to help yourself if you keep asking questions. But deep down, Dougie's thought process is, "Why even bother." And "I'm going to fail anyway, so none of this is worth it." So that's my analysis of the situation, and it could be wrong, but a therapist will be able to stop this tree-trimming nonsense and dig down to the root, where all this toxic stuff is happening.

 

To continue the tree analogy, trees don't come directly from trees. You grow trees from seeds. Seeds develop, and sprout, and then start to look more like trees. It's kind of the same with people. The mind is like a seed -- it has the potential to develop so that it becomes a tree, but if it's rotten, not intact, or damaged, it will not grow at all, it won't germinate. Dougie has a "seed" that is not likely to grow into a tree, because it's been damaged, but unlike an actual seed, it can be fortified so that it might germinate after all. Also, he needs to find ways of not digging up the seed before it even sprouts to see if it's growing, or cutting off the first shoots that might appear, in an act of self-destruction.

 

Therapy will guide him to examine and work on how the seed got damaged and how it can be fortified, so it can grow rather than remain stunted until it just shrivels up and dies. It's not about "getting laid" or "getting a woman", even though once he grows into a tree, that might well be a byproduct.

 

Again, educating oneself, getting a job, going out to socialize, getting therapy, trying new activities in groups or solo, should never be to "hook someone" even though that might be a BYPRODUCT. We have to improve ourselves for this one reason: to improve ourselves and make ourselves better version of ourselves. The end result of that has to be put aside. It's a bit like the "you find someone when you're least looking" concept, except that you don't give up on all the idea that if you are the best version of yourself and optimize the situations you put yourself in, it's possible that good things will come out of that. Which is a faith thing. It doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't try methods of meeting women, but all this internal stuff and the concept of being the best version of oneself HAS to be there, too, and it has to supercede the hardcore objective of any particular goal with women.

 

Both men and women have to do this equally. There is really no place for gender-warring with this theme. Figuring out what makes you not even want to try with life -- which the opposite sex can pick up readily, btw -- is for everyone.

 

Of course, if Dougie doesn't want to make the effort to make the effort, we are in a hall of mirrors, and at some point, Dougie would have to realize that it's a useless course here.

 

Dougie, you said you have taken advice and I have told you that you have not. YOU HAVE NOT TAKEN ANY OF THE ADVICE HERE, EXCEPT TO GET A JOB, AND THAT WAS SOMETHING YOU HAD TO DO ANYWAY. Everyone here who recognizes what's really going on here is suggesting therapy to you. How about you take THAT advice, and for the length of time commensurate with the depth of your problems, and then see where you're at.

[reinventmyself]

So outside of sex or lack thereof you would say Dougies self esteem is strong in other areas?