Going in Circles

[Dougie_D]

When a man acts freaked out because I tried a little tongue action on him, I assume he is rejecting me and leave him alone.

 

I agree, but the next date I said "let's try this again" and went for the tongue. Would you have rejected him after that?

[Dougie_D]

I don't think you can work on kissing skills at all with someone you are not attracted to. Better to practice with a pillow, etc.

 

You just contradicted yourself. Are you really assuming I'm attracted to a pillow?

[reinventmyself]

So as terrible as it sounds... right now, I'm looking to just start kissing women regardless if I am attractive to them or not. I'm not sure if my technique would change based off if I'm attractive to her or not. I honestly don't know.

 

This is where I caution you that if you approach kissing women that you aren't attracted to, you may get the same response you did with the last one.

Yes, the art of kissing is mostly technique but without feelings behind it may very well fall short of the outcome you're looking for.

 

Be prepared for women to tell you they `weren't feeling it' because you didn't put any feelings behind it.

For most of us, kissing is a very intimate thing to do.

Not to be confused with mechanical.

[Dougie_D]

This is an excellent question, though I loath the whole numbering system. I've told this story more times then I can count on but I'll tell it again. Friend of mine gets dumped by a guy. I'm helping her through the break up and she says something to the effect of "He is just soooooo attractive." I was completely flabergasted. To me the guy was like a 4. To her he was probably a 9.

 

There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to attraction and dating because there a thousands upon thaousands of factors for each person that go into why they are attracted to someone one. A good looking, kind heart-man who would eb prime relationship material for most women might also have an extreme case of White Knight Syndrom and only go for unbalanced "crazy" women. A woman who on the outside looks attractive and confident might have had a terrible home life as a child and thus be terrified of committment or only pick men who treat her badly. No one knows what's happened in anyone elses life that effect when and who they date and/or sleep with.

 

I agree that everyone thinks differently who they are attracted to and not... but for some reason, the women I'm consistently attracted to aren't interested in me. So that makes me feel I'm not up to their standards. I feel like they just want a certain look and I'm not it. I think women are more likely to not go out on a date though.

 

Also, it has to be the approach. If a girl approached me and I wasn't attractive to her, I'm not going to turn her down. I'm more open to that. I'll give her a shot and just see what happens based on her personality. That's what I did with that last chick. I started to warm up with later down the line.

 

I actually have a certain type that makes me feel more attracted to someone, but it's hard to pin point exactly what feature. I know that I'm more attracted to a girl with a pointy nose and a piggy nose than a regular nose.

[reinventmyself]

I agree that everyone thinks differently who they are attracted to and not... but for some reason, the women I'm consistently attracted to aren't interested in me. So that makes me feel I'm not up to their standards. I feel like they just want a certain look and I'm not it.

 

From what you have shared with us, you keep getting this feedback over and over.

Consider saving yourself some frustration and accept that the `type' of woman you are attracted to isn't in the cards for you.

You seem to wrestle with this unnecessarily.

Acceptance.

We all have a type we like that may be out of reach for us. So instead, we readjust.

 

Your resistance to change will keep you lonely, Dougie.

There are some beautiful women, inside and out and that would love to keep you company.

But you seem stuck on a number. It's such a shame.

 

I feel like they just want a certain look and I'm not it.

[Dougie_D]

From what you have shared with us, you keep getting this feedback over and over.

Consider saving yourself some frustration and accept that the `type' of woman you are attracted to isn't in the cards for you.

You seem to wrestle with this unnecessarily.

Acceptance.

We all have a type we like that may be out of reach for us. So instead, we readjust.

 

Your resistance to change will keep you lonely, Dougie.

There are some beautiful women, inside and out and that would love to keep you company.

But you seem stuck on a number. It's such a shame.

 

I feel like they just want a certain look and I'm not it.

 

Yeah, that's why I just re-edited my previous post.

[notalady]

From what you have shared with us, you keep getting this feedback over and over.

Consider saving yourself some frustration and accept that the `type' of woman you are attracted to isn't in the cards for you.

You seem to wrestle with this unnecessarily.

Acceptance.

We all have a type we like that may be out of reach for us. So instead, we readjust.

 

Your resistance to change will keep you lonely, Dougie.

There are some beautiful women, inside and out and that would love to keep you company.

But you seem stuck on a number. It's such a shame.

 

I feel like they just want a certain look and I'm not it.

 

Reinvent is spot on as always.

[Dougie_D]

This is where I caution you that if approach kissing women that you aren't attracted to, you may get the same response you did with the last one.

Yes, the art of kissing is mostly technique but without feelings behind it may very well fall short of the outcome you're looking for.

 

Be prepared for women to tell you they `weren't feeling it' because you didn't put any feelings behind it.

For most of us, kissing is a very intimate thing to do.

Not to be confused with mechanical.

 

I'm fine with that AFTER the fact we tongue kissed. Remember, I didn't even get to try it out.

[reinventmyself]

I'm fine with that AFTER the fact we tongue kissed. Remember, I didn't even get to try it out.

 

I went back and reread the details of your date. Towards the end you did admit you were beginning to warm up to her.

This is an improvement and as good as it is we often don't get a home run the first time up. . especially after we've just learned how to readjust our swing.

 

Give yourself a pat on back for making some changes.

Keep your feet moving and don't give up.

You may strike out a few more times. . . be prepared.

 

You aren't going to learn standing outside of the batting cages watching others swing.

Practice!

[Batya33]

You just contradicted yourself. Are you really assuming I'm attracted to a pillow?

 

LOL. I mean, obviously, that you shouldn't practice on a human you are not attracted to. If you feel that you have to perfect a technique, then try it out on an object so that attraction is a non-issue -neutral.

[Dougie_D]

LOL. I mean, obviously, that you shouldn't practice on a human you are not attracted to. If you feel that you have to perfect a technique, then try it out on an object so that attraction is a non-issue -neutral.

 

What if I'm attracted to them but not attracted to me? That's probably what I really need. Like kissing a lesbian.

[Batya33]

What if I'm attracted to them but not attracted to me? That's probably what I really need. Like kissing a lesbian.

 

I believe it needs to be mutual.

[tiredofvampires]

You met her on Tinder, which may or may not mean that she wanted a serious boyfriend -- or just a physical fling. When she said, "Finally!" after you kissed her, my feeling is that she was looking to see if she could score some physicality.

 

If she's not looking for much more, I wouldn't worry about wanting just to get some experience.

 

But I think the way you behaved gave mixed messages, and that probably dampened things for her. You tried to kiss her and when she tried to give you tongue, you suddenly backed off. She could probably tell you were freaked out, and that probably took her aback. It was like you're switching gears when you said you wanted to go slow, after you initiated a kiss, and especially for a man, that reads as odd behavior. Remember, a simple french kiss for most people isn't "going fast," unless you're slowly building a relationship, and that wasn't the set-up. Remember, she doesn't know you have no experience -- so for a woman, particularly a woman who is looking for a guy to put moves on her and get to the making out, for you to initiate a kiss and then suddenly pull back, that would be very unnerving for her. Like wth is going on.

 

Then you show up at her place and try again to kiss her -- after you already told her to back that off because you want to go slow. So that's confusing.

 

I don't know what happened when you tried the tongue kiss on her, but you were, by your account, very nervous at the time and it probably came across that you were making a major effort at this. She probably felt something was amiss, just didn't know how to put her finger on it. So it just fell flat for her at that point.

 

You are dunking your toes into the water...and without the other person knowing that backstory and situation, it could come off as strange and unpredictable signals, and my guess is the awkwardness of that just killed the whole thing.

 

I think it's okay to try kissing just to get over the fear of it, even if you're not pouring your heart and soul into it, to the tune of Adrea Bocelli singing in the background. As long as you have a willing participant, whom you think might be seeking an equal level of involvement, it's all good. You can worry about finessing it later (even if I was not attracted to someone, I could pull off a technically good/decent kiss -- but a kiss is only as good as both people, remember that; if she's a bad kisser, even if you were a natural talent the total kiss would be mediocre at best because she'd cancel you out.) I think right now, if you have a similar opportunity, trying to desensitize yourself to the fears of the experience would be best for you. I remember kissing pillows when I was an adolescent to practice, but it's so different from kissing another tongue back which has a life of its own, I'd say it was pretty useless.

 

But I would also be prepared that most women who are looking to start getting physical fast might want you to escalate to sex. I wouldn't say do something before you feel ready...but also, Dougie...you've been ready for the last decade on ENA, so I think you're going to have to psych yourself into taking some risks. It's good though to balance that with a sense of not wanting to violate anyone's boundaries or "territory", as you put it. So as long as you keep observant about their vibes, and you put moves on without being pushy, I think you'll be okay.

 

Be sure to carry condoms, in case it comes to that. I'm serious. You're in new territory, so you really need to just cover the possibilities. Especially since it sounds like the girls you're "practicing" on may be only looking to get laid, and maybe feel as passed over by the opposite sex as you.

 

I also hate the "rating" system for looks. When we throw out a number, how similar would our images look if we all could project them onto a screen? Do any of us know what's in anyone else's heads, or are we just all presuming this? I mean, when we give someone a number, we are assuming that everyone agrees on that number for that person. Which can't be further from how things really are. If you are talking about a 10 as "someone who all of society would agree is extremely gorgeous", there are very, very few people like that, that are universally attractive on this planet, and yet every man I've been in love with was a 10 to me. This is even though if I compare him to Mr. Universally Attractive, I might be able to admit that my bf is not as classically handsome or attractive. Does this mean he's not a 10 anymore in my eyes? No, they are both a 10. That's where it all falls apart. It's just that Mr. Universally Attractive has wide appeal, and my guy is "my own personal 10, made just for me." This is a much more personal rating system, and that means that affixing an actual number does not make sense because you can't apply it anywhere else.

 

By the way, good call on the journal title. I think that was well-picked.

[Dougie_D]

You met her on Tinder, which may or may not mean that she wanted a serious boyfriend -- or just a physical fling. When she said, "Finally!" after you kissed her, my feeling is that she was looking to see if she could score some physicality.

 

If she's not looking for much more, I wouldn't worry about wanting just to get some experience.

 

But I think the way you behaved gave mixed messages, and that probably dampened things for her. You tried to kiss her and when she tried to give you tongue, you suddenly backed off. She could probably tell you were freaked out, and that probably took her aback. It was like you're switching gears when you said you wanted to go slow, after you initiated a kiss, and especially for a man, that reads as odd behavior. Remember, a simple french kiss for most people isn't "going fast," unless you're slowly building a relationship, and that wasn't the set-up. Remember, she doesn't know you have no experience -- so for a woman, particularly a woman who is looking for a guy to put moves on her and get to the making out, for you to initiate a kiss and then suddenly pull back, that would be very unnerving for her. Like wth is going on.

 

Then you show up at her place and try again to kiss her -- after you already told her to back that off because you want to go slow. So that's confusing.

 

I don't know what happened when you tried the tongue kiss on her, but you were, by your account, very nervous at the time and it probably came across that you were making a major effort at this. She probably felt something was amiss, just didn't know how to put her finger on it. So it just fell flat for her at that point.

 

You are dunking your toes into the water...and without the other person knowing that backstory and situation, it could come off as strange and unpredictable signals, and my guess is the awkwardness of that just killed the whole thing.

 

I think it's okay to try kissing just to get over the fear of it, even if you're not pouring your heart and soul into it, to the tune of Adrea Bocelli singing in the background. As long as you have a willing participant, whom you think might be seeking an equal level of involvement, it's all good. You can worry about finessing it later (even if I was not attracted to someone, I could pull off a technically good/decent kiss -- but a kiss is only as good as both people, remember that; if she's a bad kisser, even if you were a natural talent the total kiss would be mediocre at best because she'd cancel you out.) I think right now, if you have a similar opportunity, trying to desensitize yourself to the fears of the experience would be best for you. I remember kissing pillows when I was an adolescent to practice, but it's so different from kissing another tongue back which has a life of its own, I'd say it was pretty useless.

 

But I would also be prepared that most women who are looking to start getting physical fast might want you to escalate to sex. I wouldn't say do something before you feel ready...but also, Dougie...you've been ready for the last decade on ENA, so I think you're going to have to psych yourself into taking some risks. It's good though to balance that with a sense of not wanting to violate anyone's boundaries or "territory", as you put it. So as long as you keep observant about their vibes, and you put moves on without being pushy, I think you'll be okay.

 

Be sure to carry condoms, in case it comes to that. I'm serious. You're in new territory, so you really need to just cover the possibilities. Especially since it sounds like the girls you're "practicing" on may be only looking to get laid, and maybe feel as passed over by the opposite sex as you.

 

I also hate the "rating" system for looks. When we throw out a number, how similar would our images look if we all could project them onto a screen? Do any of us know what's in anyone else's heads, or are we just all presuming this? I mean, when we give someone a number, we are assuming that everyone agrees on that number for that person. Which can't be further from how things really are. If you are talking about a 10 as "someone who all of society would agree is extremely gorgeous", there are very, very few people like that, that are universally attractive on this planet, and yet every man I've been in love with was a 10 to me. This is even though if I compare him to Mr. Universally Attractive, I might be able to admit that my bf is not as classically handsome or attractive. Does this mean he's not a 10 anymore in my eyes? No, they are both a 10. That's where it all falls apart. It's just that Mr. Universally Attractive has wide appeal, and my guy is "my own personal 10, made just for me." This is a much more personal rating system, and that means that affixing an actual number does not make sense because you can't apply it anywhere else.

 

By the way, good call on the journal title. I think that was well-picked.

 

This is what really bothers me. I had never in my life got a 4th date and it was clearly because I never admitted I have little to none experience. Yeah she asked but I told her in a way, where I didn't exactly lie. Just never discussed it in full length. Now, it seems my "pace" will never be up to par with women.

 

I think you got confused.. There wasn't more than one girl. The last dater was almost a year ago.

[Dougie_D]

How does someone gain the DRIVE they need? I've come to a conclusion that I lack what others have, where it drives themselves to actually do something.

Is it because I'm too comfortable about not even trying?... so basically I don't care?

 

I think I have a bipolar "caring" problem. I've always felt that I am a "contradicting ball" for the latest I can remember having an opinion. I actually don't have many opinions about anything. The ones I do, I'm probably over obsessive about.

 

Does that make sense? It's like a care about something but not enough to care about it.

[Batya33]

Drive comes within and sometimes is triggered by external factors. I finally got the internal drive to get a driver's license, pun intended, but it was driven by a near-emergency situation that convinced me. I do think a healthful diet, exercise, staying fit, having a normal sleep schedule/length helps you improve your level of passion/ambition. And having a very specific goal.

[Dougie_D]

Drive comes within and sometimes is triggered by external factors. I finally got the internal drive to get a driver's license, pun intended, but it was driven by a near-emergency situation that convinced me. I do think a healthful diet, exercise, staying fit, having a normal sleep schedule/length helps you improve your level of passion/ambition. And having a very specific goal.

 

That's great and all but do you continue to drive/use your license? People who seem driven "continue their destination" . I'll get on the highway but will take the first exit onto a scenic route and then take a nap or something.

[thejigsup]

I've always, always, always, been very driven. When I wanted something I'd work 16 hour days to get it. Whatever it took. With age I've become a little more mellow, but not a heck of a lot. Because I was driven, I had all, or most, of my childhood dreams come true, I traveled all over the country doing what I loved, I made friends wherever I've went so I was never lonely, and I was able to live my dream. Why? 16 hour days, never giving up, and being good at what I did. You need all three of those things. If you don't have all three, it ain't gonna happen. Life is challenge. Meet it.

[Dougie_D]

I've always, always, always, been very driven. When I wanted something I'd work 16 hour days to get it. Whatever it took. With age I've become a little more mellow, but not a heck of a lot. Because I was driven, I had all, or most, of my childhood dreams come true, I traveled all over the country doing what I loved, I made friends wherever I've went so I was never lonely, and I was able to live my dream. Why? 16 hour days, never giving up, and being good at what I did. You need all three of those things. If you don't have all three, it ain't gonna happen. Life is challenge. Meet it.

 

So it's really something you are born with?

[Dougie_D]

"If destiny is real, than there is no such thing as a mistake"

[Batya33]

That's great and all but do you continue to drive/use your license? People who seem driven "continue their destination" . I'll get on the highway but will take the first exit onto a scenic route and then take a nap or something.

 

I got my license 3 weeks ago in a large city. I drive almost every day but so far not alone -with my husband in the car. I hope to be ready to drive alone soon and then with my son in the car. My purpose in getting a license was because I relocated to a place w/o good public transportation and I have a young child so I can't do the scenic route kind of thing.... yet.

 

I don't focus on fate or destiny - I like to make things happen -be a "fighter" but in the positive sense.

[LoveSoDeep]

Dougie a couple things that stand out to me.

 

You're not an ugly dude...that's you in your profile right? You're basically an average dude. What keeps you thinking that you are a 3/4 is your own confidence. You even said yourself that you didn't go in for a kiss because of fear of rejection....that speaks to your confidence in yourself. You need to work on that for you....not for any woman you might date in the future....for YOU. Honestly, I don;t think we can help you with this counselling may be the only way but I can tell you it would be worth it.

 

Now about this woman....I've had this happen more than once. If there was a guy I liked on most fronts but he was very standoffish physically I definitely thought "FINALLY!" when we finally did kiss (even if I didn't say it out loud). I really wasn't sure if there was chemistry but I was willing to wait and see. One of these guys was just a slow mover when he finally did kiss me he was confident about it and I was fine with the pace because I could tell he liked me and was just waiting to be really sure and once he was sure...he was very sure and we dated for oh maybe 3 months. Another guy was very timid about he whole thing like he was a afraid every thing he tried I'd go running off and well his fear made it seem like I was back in middle school when everyone was worried about if they were a good kisser or not and well...all the fear made everyone a bad kisser. That killed it for me I didn't physically want to kiss him again....that translates to "no chemistry." Hesitation, no matter the reason for it, is a chemistry killer. Trying to kiss women you aren't actually attracted to is probably going to garner the same kind of results so I don;t really recommend it....but if you're certain you wan to go through with it just know the results will probably be the same.

 

Now this idea of kissing a lesbian....LOL Okay it's a strange idea and I'm not sure you would find someone up for this little experiment...but who knows maybe you could. The thing is she wouldn't be interested in you....she would, by definition, be interested in only women. So if nothing else you'd see how it felt to this girl you tried kissing who you weren't attracted to. If what you really feel would help you is experience, maybe you should look into hiring an escort....not a hooker....but an actual escort to go out on a date with maybe practice light physical touch (hand holding hand on waist or small of back etc.) and a few kisses. Even if she wasn't really attracted to you it's her job to be good at pretending. In all honesty though I'd start with counseling....a good counselor might have other ideas to help you.

[thejigsup]

So it's really something you are born with?

 

No. You develop it as a life skill to get what you want and need.

[Dougie_D]

Dougie a couple things that stand out to me.

 

You're not an ugly dude...that's you in your profile right? You're basically an average dude. What keeps you thinking that you are a 3/4 is your own confidence. You even said yourself that you didn't go in for a kiss because of fear of rejection....that speaks to your confidence in yourself. You need to work on that for you....not for any woman you might date in the future....for YOU. Honestly, I don;t think we can help you with this counselling may be the only way but I can tell you it would be worth it.

 

Now about this woman....I've had this happen more than once. If there was a guy I liked on most fronts but he was very standoffish physically I definitely thought "FINALLY!" when we finally did kiss (even if I didn't say it out loud). I really wasn't sure if there was chemistry but I was willing to wait and see. One of these guys was just a slow mover when he finally did kiss me he was confident about it and I was fine with the pace because I could tell he liked me and was just waiting to be really sure and once he was sure...he was very sure and we dated for oh maybe 3 months. Another guy was very timid about he whole thing like he was a afraid every thing he tried I'd go running off and well his fear made it seem like I was back in middle school when everyone was worried about if they were a good kisser or not and well...all the fear made everyone a bad kisser. That killed it for me I didn't physically want to kiss him again....that translates to "no chemistry." Hesitation, no matter the reason for it, is a chemistry killer. Trying to kiss women you aren't actually attracted to is probably going to garner the same kind of results so I don;t really recommend it....but if you're certain you wan to go through with it just know the results will probably be the same.

 

Now this idea of kissing a lesbian....LOL Okay it's a strange idea and I'm not sure you would find someone up for this little experiment...but who knows maybe you could. The thing is she wouldn't be interested in you....she would, by definition, be interested in only women. So if nothing else you'd see how it felt to this girl you tried kissing who you weren't attracted to. If what you really feel would help you is experience, maybe you should look into hiring an escort....not a hooker....but an actual escort to go out on a date with maybe practice light physical touch (hand holding hand on waist or small of back etc.) and a few kisses. Even if she wasn't really attracted to you it's her job to be good at pretending. In all honesty though I'd start with counseling....a good counselor might have other ideas to help you.

 

How does no kissing translate to no chemistry? Maybe my fear of kissing isn't fear, it's just I have absolutely no desire of kissing?

 

Is kissing what validates "chemistry"? I can easily see myself in a relationship with no kissing at all. Just because you don't kiss doesn't mean you can't have sex.

 

I'm just trying to figure out why people put so much emphasis on kissing

[agent1607307371]

Generally people want to kiss someone before they have sex with them. Sex without kissing is, well, generally the kind you get when you've engaged a professional.

 

Kissing is more intimate than a hug, sex is more intimate than a kiss. It's levels and people tend to work up through them.