Going in Circles

[Dougie_D]

I really think this is just so easy: hire an escort JUST to practice kissing. I don't know if all of them kiss their clients, some likely don't (because as I said before, that is associated with emotional territory). But find one who will. If I were in the business, I'd think heck, this is a pretty easy buck to make.

 

Just get it over with.

 

I would have suggested an older cougar that is marginally attractive enough and interested in the whole enchilada, with your youth working for you as part of her wishlist, and you telling her upfront that you're inexperienced which she might find part of the fun (teaching you). But I think the chances of being exposed to STD's, orally or genitally may be higher than with a high-priced escort.

 

I have to be comfortable with them first. In theory it would work on my 4th or 5th time getting to know them. But that would cost lots of $$$. I'm just honestly not interested in kissing unless I'm extremely feeling it or drunk and horny. The same way women might feel giving oral.

[tiredofvampires]

That's the same feeling I get about kissing. I have a small jaw and I get TMJ often. I'm not into someone else's salvia mixing with mine either... Too much saliva will scare me. I know for a fact I'll be bad and it might be painful for me for long periods of having my mouth open. Dentist office hurts me and I cry everytime. It feels like they are about to break my jaw.

 

Despite the rigors that I've described, just for the record, giving is one of the great joys for me. It certainly is worth it all.

 

Kissing someone is nothing like having your mouth open for a dentist, where your head and jaw are held in a stationary position and you can't change it up.

 

But you know, Dougie, you sound like you're pretty squeamish, and sex is not for the squeamish, unless you're only interested in procreating under the covers and then going to sleep in a tidy set of pjs. Sex is all about juices and fluids. Sweat, saliva, vaginal lubrication (which is also not something you'd order in a shake from Wendy's if they had that flavor), semen. And you can pretty much expect to get varying amounts of it all everywhere at some point, and that's par-for-the-course sloppy, not even kinky levels of sloppy.

 

So if what makes sex sexy turns you off....you might be missing out on less than you think. Maybe sex is not for you?

 

But I think this is more about your typical MO -- you want something, but there are all these outstanding reasons it's not feasible.

 

This will go on and on, but until you get therapy for your generalized fears of failure and need to sabotage yourself, you'll keep peddling in place.

 

I think you need to actually experience something sexual, such as a kiss, whether it's horrible or you enjoy it or you do better than you think, to snap yourself out of this navel-gazing where it's still just a concept and a series of imagined problems. KISS SOMEONE and see what your jaw feels like, what saliva feels like, what the give-and-take feels like, and then you'll be in a place to speak. Right now, it's you looking at a map and trying to imagine what the scenic view looks like, but you haven't even started the car up to get there.

 

You don't have to be feeling it to know what the basic sensations feel like. Will it be full of passion, no. Will it be a great kiss, no, because you're new at it and it's maybe not at a level of heart connection that makes it feel natural. But you'll at least have gotten past a major block: a phobic level of avoidance of the whole thing. This is like exposure therapy, where someone has such a phobia of something, you incrementally expose them to that situation until they can handle more and more of doing it without freaking out. I have had an adult lifelong fear of public speaking, so bad I used to not be able to do it at all, and the only way I've been getting better at it is to build on experiences of doing it more, experiencing it and seeing it didn't kill me. In psychology, this is called desensitization therapy -- and I think this is a more appropriate approach to your problem than viewing it as an activity you're supposed to do with the ideal build-up of dating rapport or even feeling horny.

 

I'm going to stand by a solid feeling that you need to find an escort, whether you feel comfortable or not. Go for one visit, tell her you're horribly nervous about kissing, and your sole reason for hiring her is to be able to do it. Then you can chat with her while you get up the nerve, try, and if you suddenly get freaked out, you can stop and start chatting again. Then she might ask if you want to try again, and you can make another go for it. Eventually, you'll get your mouth on hers and something will happen, and you can even ask her how it was, what you could do better. I think you could accomplish a lot in an hour. When you have a living person ready to see you mess up and try again, and not judge it, knowing you're paying for this and don't want to waste your money, I can bet you something will happen to move you forward from where you are now.

 

Your situation is not average, so you have to view what you're trying to do differently. The first thing you have to get though is moving past a massive mental block with a core of fear (and that's clear based on your questions about what a woman will do if you do it wrong). This should not be about feeling it and all it can be -- it should just be about you getting through it, perhaps screwing it up a few times, then getting more comfortable with several shots at it and then thinking, that wasn't so bad, I could get more into it with the right person. I know I'm not going to cry and my jaw's not going to get stuck and I can return tongue for tongue, and I'm not going to drown in someone's spit, and actually, I made a GIGANTIC DEAL OUT OF THIS AND WHAT THE HELL WAS I SO WORRIED ABOUT?

 

That's the place you need to get to. So in your place, I'd go looking for that experience to happen. I would pay for it to ensure the woman handles your nerves professionally, and is decently attractive so you don't feel repulsed. That's all you need right now.

 

As a matter of fact, I think when you're not afraid of being judged/rejected as with a real partner, you may be surprised that you behave with less cold feet, more boldness, because it won't feel as threatening.

 

It's failsafe. Then you'll be able to approach a woman you want to kiss for real without wondering if it's going to be your doom. Your brain will have more than "what if's" to go on, and that's power.

[Dougie_D]

Despite the rigors that I've described, just for the record, giving is one of the great joys for me. It certainly is worth it all.

 

Kissing someone is nothing like having your mouth open for a dentist, where your head and jaw are held in a stationary position and you can't change it up.

 

But you know, Dougie, you sound like you're pretty squeamish, and sex is not for the squeamish, unless you're only interested in procreating under the covers and then going to sleep in a tidy set of pjs. Sex is all about juices and fluids. Sweat, saliva, vaginal lubrication (which is also not something you'd order in a shake from Wendy's if they had that flavor), semen. And you can pretty much expect to get varying amounts of it all everywhere at some point, and that's par-for-the-course sloppy, not even kinky levels of sloppy.

 

So if what makes sex sexy turns you off....you might be missing out on less than you think. Maybe sex is not for you?

 

But I think this is more about your typical MO -- you want something, but there are all these outstanding reasons it's not feasible.

 

This will go on and on, but until you get therapy for your generalized fears of failure and need to sabotage yourself, you'll keep peddling in place.

 

I think you need to actually experience something sexual, such as a kiss, whether it's horrible or you enjoy it or you do better than you think, to snap yourself out of this navel-gazing where it's still just a concept and a series of imagined problems. KISS SOMEONE and see what your jaw feels like, what saliva feels like, what the give-and-take feels like, and then you'll be in a place to speak. Right now, it's you looking at a map and trying to imagine what the scenic view looks like, but you haven't even started the car up to get there.

 

You don't have to be feeling it to know what the basic sensations feel like. Will it be full of passion, no. Will it be a great kiss, no, because you're new at it and it's maybe not at a level of heart connection that makes it feel natural. But you'll at least have gotten past a major block: a phobic level of avoidance of the whole thing. This is like exposure therapy, where someone has such a phobia of something, you incrementally expose them to that situation until they can handle more and more of doing it without freaking out. I have had an adult lifelong fear of public speaking, so bad I used to not be able to do it at all, and the only way I've been getting better at it is to build on experiences of doing it more, experiencing it and seeing it didn't kill me. In psychology, this is called desensitization therapy -- and I think this is a more appropriate approach to your problem than viewing it as an activity you're supposed to do with the ideal build-up of dating rapport or even feeling horny.

 

I'm going to stand by a solid feeling that you need to find an escort, whether you feel comfortable or not. Go for one visit, tell her you're horribly nervous about kissing, and your sole reason for hiring her is to be able to do it. Then you can chat with her while you get up the nerve, try, and if you suddenly get freaked out, you can stop and start chatting again. Then she might ask if you want to try again, and you can make another go for it. Eventually, you'll get your mouth on hers and something will happen, and you can even ask her how it was, what you could do better. I think you could accomplish a lot in an hour. When you have a living person ready to see you mess up and try again, and not judge it, knowing you're paying for this and don't want to waste your money, I can bet you something will happen to move you forward from where you are now.

 

Your situation is not average, so you have to view what you're trying to do differently. The first thing you have to get though is moving past a massive mental block with a core of fear (and that's clear based on your questions about what a woman will do if you do it wrong). This should not be about feeling it and all it can be -- it should just be about you getting through it, perhaps screwing it up a few times, then getting more comfortable with several shots at it and then thinking, that wasn't so bad, I could get more into it with the right person. I know I'm not going to cry and my jaw's not going to get stuck and I can return tongue for tongue, and I'm not going to drown in someone's spit, and actually, I made a GIGANTIC DEAL OUT OF THIS AND WHAT THE HELL WAS I SO WORRIED ABOUT?

 

That's the place you need to get to. So in your place, I'd go looking for that experience to happen. I would pay for it to ensure the woman handles your nerves professionally, and is decently attractive so you don't feel repulsed. That's all you need right now.

 

As a matter of fact, I think when you're not afraid of being judged/rejected as with a real partner, you may be surprised that you behave with less cold feet, more boldness, because it won't feel as threatening.

 

It's failsafe. Then you'll be able to approach a woman you want to kiss for real without wondering if it's going to be your doom. Your brain will have more than "what if's" to go on, and that's power.

 

 

I absolutely agree that once I experience something, I'll be more comfortable and won't be scared of saliva, etc..

 

But here are the problems about hiring an escort just for kissing.

 

--- she'll take advantage of my money. She can easily say that "learning to kiss" will be extra money. And how long? An hour?

--- there's a good chance she won't teach me anything and I'll be mislead of my skills... meaning, she might purposely tell me I'm bad and slow play the whole thing for money, OR she'll purposely tell me how great I am and want extra money.

--- I won't be scared to kiss an escort because I already know it's part of the agenda. I feel like kissing needs to be spontaneous to get that feeling that everyone talks about.

--- It would ABSOLUTELY make me feel worthless and depressed....even worse than I feel normally. The reason is about pride. How pathetic is that a 35 year old man would have to hire an escort just to learn how to kiss? I can't take that to my grave.

 

So, the more I think about it.. I really can't do an escort. And let's be honest here. I need to have dates to even think about a "real" kiss. All this talk means nothing when I don't have dates... which about maybe twice a year. It's really getting annoying. If I can't get another date by 40 I'm seriously gonna live on island and pray for starvation. Because that will be better than no knowing anything at 40. If I'm not ugly. Then why can't I find someone willing to date me more than twice a year. My odds are terrible.

[IAmFCA]

I absolutely agree that once I experience something, I'll be more comfortable and won't be scared of saliva, etc..

 

But here are the problems about hiring an escort just for kissing.

 

--- she'll take advantage of my money. She can easily say that "learning to kiss" will be extra money. And how long? An hour?

--- there's a good chance she won't teach me anything and I'll be mislead of my skills... meaning, she might purposely tell me I'm bad and slow play the whole thing for money, OR she'll purposely tell me how great I am and want extra money.

--- I won't be scared to kiss an escort because I already know it's part of the agenda. I feel like kissing needs to be spontaneous to get that feeling that everyone talks about.

--- It would ABSOLUTELY make me feel worthless and depressed....even worse than I feel normally. The reason is about pride. How pathetic is that a 35 year old man would have to hire an escort just to learn how to kiss? I can't take that to my grave.

 

So, the more I think about it.. I really can't do an escort. And let's be honest here. I need to have dates to even think about a "real" kiss. All this talk means nothing when I don't have dates... which about maybe twice a year. It's really getting annoying. If I can't get another date by 40 I'm seriously gonna live on island and pray for starvation. Because that will be better than no knowing anything at 40. If I'm not ugly. Then why can't I find someone willing to date me more than twice a year. My odds are terrible.

 

Fine. Then you will have to take more risks in your social life, accept being imperfect, accept that that is how we learn, and try again. None of us born knowing how to kiss, or date, or dress. We learn as we go.

[Moontiger]

I absolutely agree that once I experience something, I'll be more comfortable and won't be scared of saliva, etc..

 

But here are the problems about hiring an escort just for kissing.

 

--- she'll take advantage of my money. She can easily say that "learning to kiss" will be extra money. And how long? An hour?

--- there's a good chance she won't teach me anything and I'll be mislead of my skills... meaning, she might purposely tell me I'm bad and slow play the whole thing for money, OR she'll purposely tell me how great I am and want extra money.

--- I won't be scared to kiss an escort because I already know it's part of the agenda. I feel like kissing needs to be spontaneous to get that feeling that everyone talks about.

--- It would ABSOLUTELY make me feel worthless and depressed....even worse than I feel normally. The reason is about pride. How pathetic is that a 35 year old man would have to hire an escort just to learn how to kiss? I can't take that to my grave.

 

So, the more I think about it.. I really can't do an escort. And let's be honest here. I need to have dates to even think about a "real" kiss. All this talk means nothing when I don't have dates... which about maybe twice a year. It's really getting annoying. If I can't get another date by 40 I'm seriously gonna live on island and pray for starvation. Because that will be better than no knowing anything at 40. If I'm not ugly. Then why can't I find someone willing to date me more than twice a year. My odds are terrible.

 

So, as typical you have 1,001 reasons why legitimate advice is JUST IMPOSSIBLE for you.

 

I think you need to get over this victim mentality. Either do the work to change your life or stop complaining about it.

[boltnrun]

Dougie, I think you don't really want to date women, or find a woman to have sex with (NO kissing!!! Oral only!).

 

I think you actually enjoy complaining about not being able to find a woman to date or have sex with.

 

There was a guy on another board who admitted he posted not to get advice, but to get attention, because no one gave him attention in the real world.

 

I think you might just want attention from people. Even if it's just words on a computer screen.

 

However...if I'm totally off base and you really do want to meet a woman to date and have sex with...why do you reject any and all advice and have 1,693 reasons why none of the (excellent) advice you've been given can't possibly work for you?

[LoveSoDeep]

First TOV I've been LOLing at my desk for the last 5 minutes. Thanks I needed that but thank goodness my coworkers have earbuds in today!

 

Wait it just dawned on me that some sex therapists actually do things like this....do they call it being a surrogate? Oh I can't remember all the details but there is definitely a small niche of sex therapy which actually involves practice of certain acts with a real live person. No way I'm googling that at work to find the info for you Dougie, but do some research I swear I saw it on TV...maybe in one of those reality shows or something.

 

I mean if I'm right that's the best of both worlds...therapy and practice. It's worth some real research I think.

[agent1607307371]

do they call it being a surrogate?

 

Yes, sexual surrogates. But I imagine that costs even more than a regular flavour sex worker.

[LoveSoDeep]

Yes, sexual surrogates. But I imagine that costs even more than a regular flavour sex worker.

 

Oh, good I'm not crazy. I really did learn something from television.

 

I agree it's probably not cheap but less worry about being take advantage of and some real therapy to boot. It's worth looking into. Maybe insurance will cove some of it....I mean if it's billed as therapy there's a chance.

 

I have a feeling this idea will get shot down too.....but as other have said it's Dougie's constant shooting down of viable options that might help him that is going to keep him stuck going in circles so I don't know what to say that will make this any different....it was just a thought. I still think therapy (surrogate or not) is the only way he's going to resolve this in the long run.

[Dougie_D]

Dougie, I think you don't really want to date women, or find a woman to have sex with (NO kissing!!! Oral only!).

 

I think you actually enjoy complaining about not being able to find a woman to date or have sex with.

 

There was a guy on another board who admitted he posted not to get advice, but to get attention, because no one gave him attention in the real world.

 

I think you might just want attention from people. Even if it's just words on a computer screen.

 

However...if I'm totally off base and you really do want to meet a woman to date and have sex with...why do you reject any and all advice and have 1,693 reasons why none of the (excellent) advice you've been given can't possibly work for you?

 

I have taken people's advice on here. The main problem is that out of 10 guys, it feels like I'm the last a woman would want to date. I just feel like I'm being judged harshly because the way I look. I also live in LA, which is tough in general.

I think in college women may have liked me, but my goofy personality may have destroyed it and the fact that everyone knew I was a virgin.

 

In an ideal world, I want a girl that would want to take my virginity and enjoy that fact. In my head, I need a dominant woman in bed. But most women steer away from that. I wouldn't mind a bit of bondage either. 😜

[boltnrun]

In one breath you say you take the advice. Then in the next you give more excuses why nothing works for you.

 

You actually proved my point.

 

PS: Where did you get the idea that "most women" steer away from being dominant in bed??

[Dougie_D]

Oh, good I'm not crazy. I really did learn something from television.

 

I agree it's probably not cheap but less worry about being take advantage of and some real therapy to boot. It's worth looking into. Maybe insurance will cove some of it....I mean if it's billed as therapy there's a chance.

 

I have a feeling this idea will get shot down too.....but as other have said it's Dougie's constant shooting down of viable options that might help him that is going to keep him stuck going in circles so I don't know what to say that will make this any different....it was just a thought. I still think therapy (surrogate or not) is the only way he's going to resolve this in the long run.

I've actually looked into and the therapist said I'm not ideal for their services. I think it was more because I don't have the fear of getting naked or something. Or they rarely practice it with individuals.. Or sex wasn't really what they do for clients. I don't remember exactly what he said in email but I'll post it if I can find it.

[Dougie_D]

In one breath you say you take the advice. Then in the next you give more excuses why nothing works for you.

 

You actually proved my point.

 

PS: Where did you get the idea that "most women" steer away from being dominant in bed??

I've had many women say they rather have the man take control or/and know what they are doing in bed

[agent1607307371]

Were these women sleeping with you?

[Dougie_D]

Also, people think I use excuses. I don't. I just know what has worked and what hasn't. I do better in small groups because there is less competition. Also, my age doesn't reflect my overall experiences in life. You think a 35 year old can date a 22 year old? Where would I find a 35 year old woman that has no desire to marry or have kids by the time she's 40? Many women in my age group want children because of their biological clock. I get it but I'm not in a rush at all. I'm looking for the casual dater.

 

1. People said that if I got a job it would help me find more women.. No it hasn't. I've had a full time job for almost 3 years.

If anything it's hurt my social life even more.

 

2. People say that if I volunteer, meet up groups, I'll meet someone. I've done those and women who show up are limited and the other people are just people I never meshed well with. I don't even participate in work/social events because it feels like Highschool.

 

The problem is not that I don't talk to enough women. The problem is that for some reason women aren't attracted to me. I need advice on becoming more attractive. Yes, I'm trying to lose weight but many guys bigger than me get women as well.

[Dougie_D]

Were these women sleeping with you?

 

No? Haha! But I would always hear them talking about how they hated when a man just layed down and did nothing.

[agent1607307371]

Then you don't know what they like in bed.

 

And nobody likes a lazy partner, but there's a world of difference between doing nothing and taking control.

[Moontiger]

Also, people think I use excuses. I don't. I just know what has worked and what hasn't. I do better in small groups because there is less competition. Also, my age doesn't reflect my overall experiences in life. You think a 35 year old can date a 22 year old? Where would I find a 35 year old woman that has no desire to marry or have kids by the time she's 40? Many women in my age group want children because of their biological clock. I get it but I'm not in a rush at all. I'm looking for the casual dater.

 

1. People said that if I got a job it would help me find more women.. No it hasn't. I've had a full time job for almost 3 years.

If anything it's hurt my social life even more.

 

2. People say that if I volunteer, meet up groups, I'll meet someone. I've done those and women who show up are limited and the other people are just people I never meshed well with. I don't even participate in work/social events because it feels like Highschool.

 

The problem is not that I don't talk to enough women. The problem is that for some reason women aren't attracted to me. I need advice on becoming more attractive. Yes, I'm trying to lose weight but many guys bigger than me get women as well.

 

This whole post is excuses. You are not owed a woman. No one is owed anything in life. These suggestion can only increase your likliehood to find a partner not gaurntee and that seems to what you are looking for. And the only answer to that is an escort, but wait! You made a million excuses about that also!

[Blue Spiral]

This whole post is excuses. You are not owed a woman. No one is owed anything in life. These suggestion can only increase your likliehood to find a partner not gaurntee and that seems to what you are looking for. And the only answer to that is an escort, but wait! You made a million excuses about that also!

 

I haven't read this entire thread, but, I haven't seen him say that he was owed a woman. I don't know why, but, women seem to interpret any sort of male complaining as "being owed a woman". It's like some sort of group hallucination.

 

Also, no, that whole post is not excuses. He pointed out two things that ENAers told him to do--get a job and volunteer/do social crap. People (mainly women) told him that doing those things would help him, but they haven't, and when he has the temerity to point that out, you jump on him. Yeesh.

 

I can relate, Dougie. When I was younger, people (again, mainly women) told me that doing A, B, and C would help me with women...but they actually helped women. I ended up doing things that benefited women, and other things that men are "supposed" to do, but they sure didn't help me get laid. When I told them that their advice wasn't working, they got surprisingly angry with me. Their worldview claims that men will do well with women if we do these certain things, and when that doesn't happen, their worldview is proven to be false.

 

In my opinion, the women of ENA have no real interest in helping you, Dougie. I think that they view you as a "substandard" male, and their natural tribal instinct is to keep you away from the gene pool, not help you get closer to it. Women use success (sexual and otherwise) to weed out relationship candidates, and if you can't succeed on your own, I seriously doubt that they'll go against their working-just-fine system to help you. They'd never admit it, but, I suspect that they view your failure as a good thing; as a sign that "unworthy" men are being kept in their place. Their advice will keep you spinning your wheels, and while they may try to dump you off on some unattractive woman with few prospects (if you were to mention such a woman, I'm sure they'd praise her as a "realistic possibility" for you), I don't think they're interested in your happiness or fulfillment. They want to label you in a way that keeps their worldview intact, and doesn't alert the rest of us men that something fishy is going on.

[Dougie_D]

This whole post is excuses. You are not owed a woman. No one is owed anything in life. These suggestion can only increase your likliehood to find a partner not gaurntee and that seems to what you are looking for. And the only answer to that is an escort, but wait! You made a million excuses about that also!

 

I've taken these suggestions. I tried them out. Nothing panned out so I'm looking for other advice.

[chitown9]

Same thing, different day , Dougie.

I'm sorry you're still struggling with this but I'm at a loss of what to tell you that hasn't already been said.

I hope you find your answers.

 

Dougie stated long ago in one of his threads that he makes them more for attention than anything else. chi

[Dougie_D]

I haven't read this entire thread, but, I haven't seen him say that he was owed a woman. I don't know why, but, women seem to interpret any sort of male complaining as "being owed a woman". It's like some sort of group hallucination.

 

Also, no, that whole post is not excuses. He pointed out two things that ENAers told him to do--get a job and volunteer/do social crap. People (mainly women) told him that doing those things would help him, but they haven't, and when he has the temerity to point that out, you jump on him. Yeesh.

 

I can relate, Dougie. When I was younger, people (again, mainly women) told me that doing A, B, and C would help me with women...but they actually helped women. I ended up doing things that benefited women, and other things that men are "supposed" to do, but they sure didn't help me get laid. When I told them that their advice wasn't working, they got surprisingly angry with me. Their worldview claims that men will do well with women if we do these certain things, and when that doesn't happen, their worldview is proven to be false.

 

In my opinion, the women of ENA have no real interest in helping you, Dougie. I think that they view you as a "substandard" male, and their natural tribal instinct is to keep you away from the gene pool, not help you get closer to it. Women use success (sexual and otherwise) to weed out relationship candidates, and if you can't succeed on your own, I seriously doubt that they'll go against their working-just-fine system to help you. They'd never admit it, but, I suspect that they view your failure as a good thing; as a sign that "unworthy" men are being kept in their place. Their advice will keep you spinning your wheels, and while they may try to dump you off on some unattractive woman with few prospects (if you were to mention such a woman, I'm sure they'd praise her as a "realistic possibility" for you), I don't think they're interested in your happiness or fulfillment. They want to label you in a way that keeps their worldview intact, and doesn't alert the rest of us men that something fishy is going on.

 

Thanks. I do need more advice by men in certain areas in my life and sometimes I'm not sold on a woman's perspective. It's like when women hire a personal male trainer whos buff. I shake my head sometimes... If I wanted to get buff, it would make sense to hire guy that's closer to what physique I want to achieve.

[tiredofvampires]

This post isn't going in order of points made, but just what comes up as it comes up.

 

Male posters are free to post here to help you, Dougie. You posted for many years in the regular forums, and I saw as many men infuriated with your stubborn and self-defeating attitude as women, and I suspect the reason you're getting more women on your threads now (as this journal) is because the maternal instinct dies hard. The guys have given up.

 

I've taken these suggestions. I tried them out. Nothing panned out so I'm looking for other advice.

 

Dougie, this is probably something you are not going to want to take seriously for a long time yet, but there is no advice other than what you've gotten.

 

You seem to think there is some magic answer. There isn't.

 

You say you took suggestions, but here's why they didn't help you:

 

1. "I got a job, but it didn't bring me women." No one on this board EVER said that getting a job would get you a woman. What everyone said was that it would be one less mark against you if you're employed, because being unemployed when you're able-bodied, especially if you aren't independently wealthy, screams to a woman no ambition, no talent, no skills, no independence, no education, no funds to do anything together, possible debt, broke, unable to contribute to material aspects of relationship, and lazy. So having a job just fills in a BASELINE expectation that women have, and rightly so. Just as men rightly expect a woman to have a job if she is able-bodied and not independently wealthy, because in this day and age, those same negative traits would be seen in a woman sitting on her arse all day waiting for some pipe-dream to manifest or just partying. Such a woman would not pull in many good prospects either, if any. The only people who might break this rule (so PEOPLE, not male/female) are those who are so physically attractive, and sexually magnetic, that works for them. For a while. Until they age and fade and then they're screwed. This is not a gender issue. This is life. Holding down a job is a BASIC, BASIC pre-requisite in this society to show not just a potential partner, but anyone, that you aren't a complete bum. Everyone here told you to do this for yourself and your own self-respect first, as well as independence from your family, so let's be clear, if you just went to work to be able to get women, that was your mistake. And you missed the point. I will add that a menial job is certainly better than no job, for every reason conceivable. But many women see dead-end jobs as a possible sign of laziness and low ambition, so it's still working against you that in fact, you have admitted that you have those qualities. Which are likely hurting you in how "attractive" you are to women far more than the actual job. I've never met you, but I'm absolutely positive that you don't radiate qualities you don't have, which are often considered desirable.

 

2. "I tried meet-up groups and social groups, but didn't meet any women I liked or didn't mesh with people." Again: you were cautioned not to go to meet-ups JUST to meet women. You were told that these groups would increase your interesting quotient -- that by expanding your horizons and trying new things, you would become more engaging, more knowledgeable, more interesting, aka LESS BORING to be around. The more I learn and do of different things, the more varied my social/mental "diet", the more interesting the buffet becomes, and you bring that enhanced "you" everywhere you go. So you might bump into a girl somewhere else, and be able to talk about how you discovered xyz at a meetup, and that's where it would be working for you. You go to groups and events and various cultural things to MAKE YOURSELF MORE VERSATILE AND THEREFORE, GOOD TO CONVERSE WITH. You don't go thinking, if I don't see the girl that catches my eye, forget all this. Like work, you have to keep doing it, and that's the other thing: enriching yourself should be a lifetime sign-up, not a one-shot, "been there, done that, no thanks." You have a zillllllion different things to try in L.A. -- it's endless. There are even groups just to go out and eat and drink together. Which doesn't require a special talent or interest, just a desire to talk and eat with people. But you gave up after one board game group. I'm not aware of any others you went to. But there is no reason for you to stop going to new places to seeing new things and meeting new people, that project must continue, otherwise, don't even bother saying you tried this suggestion. It only works if it's ongoing. And even then, it's like a job: you do it for the value of improving yourself first, and let go of guarantees of the results. This also is not a gender issue. Any woman who never gets out to try new things would be, or should be, given the exact same advice.

 

So these are just 2 of the thousands of suggestions you were given, and you haven't even really properly framed these 2. They were a START on the right track, and #2, you actually gave up on, so it doesn't even count. #1 is basic to get any respect from any person, as well as pay for something you want without asking Mommy and Daddy.

 

Other major suggestions have been discarded, the most important of which is, get therapy. I don't know that a therapist would have any better success than we have. But again, it would be a START to give you a better shot than you have now.

 

Don't kid yourself, Dougie: you haven't sincerely tried ANY of the suggestions, and now you're looking for new advice? What advice would you ever take? You can't even seem to lose the weight you agree might be another START in the right direction. So even advice you think might help you a bit, you have a reason to shoot down and not do.

 

Until you lose weight, there's no point in giving you any advice. Not because weight is THE dealbreaker, but because it's a good barometer of how little you wish to change. How little you value making an effort, which is the ONLY "magic" answer that exists, in quotes because it's not actually magic, it's cause and effect. Effort----> Frequently Improved Results.

 

It's sitting right under your nose, as you squander it away. What I observe about you is that whatever you do, you try to do it with AS LITTLE EFFORT as possible. So...is that attractive?

 

Go out and get ripped and toned -- and then "let's talk." If you can't do that, that should say something to you about where you're at with advice-taking and deeper issues going on that stand in your way.

[Dougie_D]

This post isn't going in order of points made, but just what comes up as it comes up.

 

Male posters are free to post here to help you, Dougie. You posted for many years in the regular forums, and I saw as many men infuriated with your stubborn and self-defeating attitude as women, and I suspect the reason you're getting more women on your threads now (as this journal) is because the maternal instinct dies hard. The guys have given up.

 

 

 

Dougie, this is probably something you are not going to want to take seriously for a long time yet, but there is no advice other than what you've gotten.

 

You seem to think there is some magic answer. There isn't.

 

You say you took suggestions, but here's why they didn't help you:

 

1. "I got a job, but it didn't bring me women." No one on this board EVER said that getting a job would get you a woman. What everyone said was that it would be one less mark against you if you're employed, because being unemployed when you're able-bodied, especially if you aren't independently wealthy, screams to a woman no ambition, no talent, no skills, no independence, no education, no funds to do anything together, possible debt, broke, unable to contribute to material aspects of relationship, and lazy. So having a job just fills in a BASELINE expectation that women have, and rightly so. Just as men rightly expect a woman to have a job if she is able-bodied and not independently wealthy, because in this day and age, those same negative traits would be seen in a woman sitting on her arse all day waiting for some pipe-dream to manifest or just partying. Such a woman would not pull in many good prospects either, if any. The only people who might break this rule (so PEOPLE, not male/female) are those who are so physically attractive, and sexually magnetic, that works for them. For a while. Until they age and fade and then they're screwed. This is not a gender issue. This is life. Holding down a job is a BASIC, BASIC pre-requisite in this society to show not just a potential partner, but anyone, that you aren't a complete bum. Everyone here told you to do this for yourself and your own self-respect first, as well as independence from your family, so let's be clear, if you just went to work to be able to get women, that was your mistake. And you missed the point. I will add that a menial job is certainly better than no job, for every reason conceivable. But many women see dead-end jobs as a possible sign of laziness and low ambition, so it's still working against you that in fact, you have admitted that you have those qualities. Which are likely hurting you in how "attractive" you are to women far more than the actual job. I've never met you, but I'm absolutely positive that you don't radiate qualities you don't have, which are often considered desirable.

 

2. "I tried meet-up groups and social groups, but didn't meet any women I liked or didn't mesh with people." Again: you were cautioned not to go to meet-ups JUST to meet women. You were told that these groups would increase your interesting quotient -- that by expanding your horizons and trying new things, you would become more engaging, more knowledgeable, more interesting, aka LESS BORING to be around. The more I learn and do of different things, the more varied my social/mental "diet", the more interesting the buffet becomes, and you bring that enhanced "you" everywhere you go. So you might bump into a girl somewhere else, and be able to talk about how you discovered xyz at a meetup, and that's where it would be working for you. You go to groups and events and various cultural things to MAKE YOURSELF MORE VERSATILE AND THEREFORE, GOOD TO CONVERSE WITH. You don't go thinking, if I don't see the girl that catches my eye, forget all this. Like work, you have to keep doing it, and that's the other thing: enriching yourself should be a lifetime sign-up, not a one-shot, "been there, done that, no thanks." You have a zillllllion different things to try in L.A. -- it's endless. There are even groups just to go out and eat and drink together. Which doesn't require a special talent or interest, just a desire to talk and eat with people. But you gave up after one board game group. I'm not aware of any others you went to. But there is no reason for you to stop going to new places to seeing new things and meeting new people, that project must continue, otherwise, don't even bother saying you tried this suggestion. It only works if it's ongoing. And even then, it's like a job: you do it for the value of improving yourself first, and let go of guarantees of the results. This also is not a gender issue. Any woman who never gets out to try new things would be, or should be, given the exact same advice.

 

So these are just 2 of the thousands of suggestions you were given, and you haven't even really properly framed these 2. They were a START on the right track, and #2, you actually gave up on, so it doesn't even count. #1 is basic to get any respect from any person, as well as pay for something you want without asking Mommy and Daddy.

 

Other major suggestions have been discarded, the most important of which is, get therapy. I don't know that a therapist would have any better success than we have. But again, it would be a START to give you a better shot than you have now.

 

Don't kid yourself, Dougie: you haven't sincerely tried ANY of the suggestions, and now you're looking for new advice? What advice would you ever take? You can't even seem to lose the weight you agree might be another START in the right direction. So even advice you think might help you a bit, you have a reason to shoot down and not do.

 

Until you lose weight, there's no point in giving you any advice. Not because weight is THE dealbreaker, but because it's a good barometer of how little you wish to change. How little you value making an effort, which is the ONLY "magic" answer that exists, in quotes because it's not actually magic, it's cause and effect. Effort----> Frequently Improved Results.

 

It's sitting right under your nose, as you squander it away. What I observe about you is that whatever you do, you try to do it with AS LITTLE EFFORT as possible. So...is that attractive?

 

Go out and get ripped and toned -- and then "let's talk." If you can't do that, that should say something to you about where you're at with advice-taking and deeper issues going on that stand in your way.

 

I already know my deeper issue. I lack the ambition. I lack the passion. I lack the drive. I lack the motivation. It's honestly probably genetics, and some type of neurogical thing going on that's causing this. Trust me, I want to have all that stuff but I keep telling myself it's not even worth trying. Music is the only aspect of my life that keeps me motivated to pursue something.

[IAmFCA]

I already know my deeper issue. I lack the ambition. I lack the passion. I lack the drive. I lack the motivation. It's honestly probably genetics, and some type of neurogical thing going on that's causing this. Trust me, I want to have all that stuff but I keep telling myself it's not even worth trying. Music is the only aspect of my life that keeps me motivated to pursue something.

 

"Not worth trying" protects yourself from success.

 

The benefits you seek have value. If they were of more value to you than the avoidance of failure, then you would risk the effort of trying to earn them.

 

Two principles to consider:

 

1. Failure is mandatory. I want to replace it with a different word, so that we don't have it around to trigger negative self talk

 

Failure is the stepping stone to success. Without failure, success doesn't happen. We MUST fail if we are to succeed.

 

2. We tend to achieve the goals that matter most to us. Look at what gou have achieved and recognize it reflects your values. Safety, security have been protected, at that you have succeeded.

 

3. State your goals in terms of details you can control. None of us can control whether a person wants to go out with us. Instead, we can control who we are and what choices we make. Did I ask her out? Yes, go attained. Success!

 

The response is beyond your control and therefore not something for which you can be responsible.