Going in Circles

[Moontiger]

This post isn't going in order of points made, but just what comes up as it comes up.

 

Male posters are free to post here to help you, Dougie. You posted for many years in the regular forums, and I saw as many men infuriated with your stubborn and self-defeating attitude as women, and I suspect the reason you're getting more women on your threads now (as this journal) is because the maternal instinct dies hard. The guys have given up.

 

 

 

Dougie, this is probably something you are not going to want to take seriously for a long time yet, but there is no advice other than what you've gotten.

 

You seem to think there is some magic answer. There isn't.

 

You say you took suggestions, but here's why they didn't help you:

 

1. "I got a job, but it didn't bring me women." No one on this board EVER said that getting a job would get you a woman. What everyone said was that it would be one less mark against you if you're employed, because being unemployed when you're able-bodied, especially if you aren't independently wealthy, screams to a woman no ambition, no talent, no skills, no independence, no education, no funds to do anything together, possible debt, broke, unable to contribute to material aspects of relationship, and lazy. So having a job just fills in a BASELINE expectation that women have, and rightly so. Just as men rightly expect a woman to have a job if she is able-bodied and not independently wealthy, because in this day and age, those same negative traits would be seen in a woman sitting on her arse all day waiting for some pipe-dream to manifest or just partying. Such a woman would not pull in many good prospects either, if any. The only people who might break this rule (so PEOPLE, not male/female) are those who are so physically attractive, and sexually magnetic, that works for them. For a while. Until they age and fade and then they're screwed. This is not a gender issue. This is life. Holding down a job is a BASIC, BASIC pre-requisite in this society to show not just a potential partner, but anyone, that you aren't a complete bum. Everyone here told you to do this for yourself and your own self-respect first, as well as independence from your family, so let's be clear, if you just went to work to be able to get women, that was your mistake. And you missed the point. I will add that a menial job is certainly better than no job, for every reason conceivable. But many women see dead-end jobs as a possible sign of laziness and low ambition, so it's still working against you that in fact, you have admitted that you have those qualities. Which are likely hurting you in how "attractive" you are to women far more than the actual job. I've never met you, but I'm absolutely positive that you don't radiate qualities you don't have, which are often considered desirable.

 

2. "I tried meet-up groups and social groups, but didn't meet any women I liked or didn't mesh with people." Again: you were cautioned not to go to meet-ups JUST to meet women. You were told that these groups would increase your interesting quotient -- that by expanding your horizons and trying new things, you would become more engaging, more knowledgeable, more interesting, aka LESS BORING to be around. The more I learn and do of different things, the more varied my social/mental "diet", the more interesting the buffet becomes, and you bring that enhanced "you" everywhere you go. So you might bump into a girl somewhere else, and be able to talk about how you discovered xyz at a meetup, and that's where it would be working for you. You go to groups and events and various cultural things to MAKE YOURSELF MORE VERSATILE AND THEREFORE, GOOD TO CONVERSE WITH. You don't go thinking, if I don't see the girl that catches my eye, forget all this. Like work, you have to keep doing it, and that's the other thing: enriching yourself should be a lifetime sign-up, not a one-shot, "been there, done that, no thanks." You have a zillllllion different things to try in L.A. -- it's endless. There are even groups just to go out and eat and drink together. Which doesn't require a special talent or interest, just a desire to talk and eat with people. But you gave up after one board game group. I'm not aware of any others you went to. But there is no reason for you to stop going to new places to seeing new things and meeting new people, that project must continue, otherwise, don't even bother saying you tried this suggestion. It only works if it's ongoing. And even then, it's like a job: you do it for the value of improving yourself first, and let go of guarantees of the results. This also is not a gender issue. Any woman who never gets out to try new things would be, or should be, given the exact same advice.

 

So these are just 2 of the thousands of suggestions you were given, and you haven't even really properly framed these 2. They were a START on the right track, and #2, you actually gave up on, so it doesn't even count. #1 is basic to get any respect from any person, as well as pay for something you want without asking Mommy and Daddy.

 

Other major suggestions have been discarded, the most important of which is, get therapy. I don't know that a therapist would have any better success than we have. But again, it would be a START to give you a better shot than you have now.

 

Don't kid yourself, Dougie: you haven't sincerely tried ANY of the suggestions, and now you're looking for new advice? What advice would you ever take? You can't even seem to lose the weight you agree might be another START in the right direction. So even advice you think might help you a bit, you have a reason to shoot down and not do.

 

Until you lose weight, there's no point in giving you any advice. Not because weight is THE dealbreaker, but because it's a good barometer of how little you wish to change. How little you value making an effort, which is the ONLY "magic" answer that exists, in quotes because it's not actually magic, it's cause and effect. Effort----> Frequently Improved Results.

 

It's sitting right under your nose, as you squander it away. What I observe about you is that whatever you do, you try to do it with AS LITTLE EFFORT as possible. So...is that attractive?

 

Go out and get ripped and toned -- and then "let's talk." If you can't do that, that should say something to you about where you're at with advice-taking and deeper issues going on that stand in your way.

 

ToV, so much good sense in this. Like you I have seen Dougie's posts over the YEARS and see men, women, every get frustrated with his total lack of effort and victim mentality. Each thread is 1) Asking for a magic wand to get a woman 2) Making excuses for why legitment advice "doesn't work".

 

I'm starting to think that the poster who speculated that Doguie only posts to get attention is right.

[Blue Spiral]

I don't have any ambition either, Dougie, but that hasn't stopped me from getting a surprising amount of sex. It'll definitely make things complicated if you want a long-term relationship...but, given the situation you're in, that's sort of a Final Boss-type problem. Right now, you just need to focus on getting past Level 1.

 

Also, no one should be surprised that Dougie needs attention. Being ignored by your preferred gender is extremely traumatizing. It's psychological/sexual starvation, in a way. Obviously, most women don't realize this, because they're constantly bombarded by male attention. (You have to remember, Dougie: only women are allowed to be victims! If a man expresses feelings of weakness or helplessness, it's unattractive. The old gender roles don't apply anymore, except when they do.)

 

Sex is supposed to be idiot-proof, Dougie. There are seven billion people on this planet, and it isn't because hundreds of millions of men are so smooth with women. No, it's because we really like ****ing each other. It's baked right into our DNA. Raw chemical attraction should be doing most of the work for you. Yeah, you're not most women's picture of an ideal guy (hey, neither am I), but human beings are into all sorts of types and crazy sexual things, and the idea that a woman would be into you...well, it's much less crazy than some of the other things out there. I guarantee you: somewhere, there's a type of women that are attracted to the type of guy that you are. You just need to get out of your own way. Ditch the artifice (all the dating and relationship customs), focus on what you enjoy in life, and keep your eyes open.

 

I understand why you need to talk about this...but talking with us isn't going to help you get laid. You have enough problems to deal with as it is; if ENA is just another source of negativity for you, it's only going to drag you down and hurt your chances.

[agent1607307371]

Obviously, most women don't realize this, because they're constantly bombarded by male attention.

 

You really have no idea how most women live.

[IAmFCA]

I don't have any ambition either, Dougie, but that hasn't stopped me from getting a surprising amount of sex. It'll definitely make things complicated if you want a long-term relationship...but, given the situation you're in, that's sort of a Final Boss-type problem. Right now, you just need to focus on getting past Level 1.

 

Also, no one should be surprised that Dougie needs attention. Being ignored by your preferred gender is extremely traumatizing. It's psychological/sexual starvation, in a way. Obviously, most women don't realize this, because they're constantly bombarded by male attention. (You have to remember, Dougie: only women are allowed to be victims! If a man expresses feelings of weakness or helplessness, it's unattractive. The old gender roles don't apply anymore, except when they do.)

 

Sex is supposed to be idiot-proof, Dougie. There are seven billion people on this planet, and it isn't because hundreds of millions of men are so smooth with women. No, it's because we really like ****ing each other. It's baked right into our DNA. Raw chemical attraction should be doing most of the work for you. Yeah, you're not most women's picture of an ideal guy (hey, neither am I), but human beings are into all sorts of types and crazy sexual things, and the idea that a woman would be into you...well, it's much less crazy than some of the other things out there. I guarantee you: somewhere, there's a type of women that are attracted to the type of guy that you are. You just need to get out of your own way. Ditch the artifice (all the dating and relationship customs), focus on what you enjoy in life, and keep your eyes open.

 

I understand why you need to talk about this...but talking with us isn't going to help you get laid. You have enough problems to deal with as it is; if ENA is just another source of negativity for you, it's only going to drag you down and hurt your chances.

 

I do not want to get sidetracked by digging into this particular post too much. I will say simply:

 

1. Men and women are PEOPLE before they are genders.

2. The people I like to associate with are interesting because they have interests that they develop through work and play, they share those interests, and they are honest and kind so that I feel respected and safe while in their company. This is true for all genders and all areas of my life - social, volunteer, work, friends, romances.

3. Dating - getting to know someone enough to want to kiss them and so on - happens by sharing these interests and life perspectives, discovering common ground, and giving time for an attraction to grow.

 

So, Dougie, the woman for you is interested in music, and in hanging about doing not much else; she has a low level of interest in athletics, her physical health, and her appearance; and is interested in doing the minimum amount of effort to win your attention, same as you with her. That women, if you find her, is your match.

[Moontiger]

IThinkICan, great point. The female equivalent of Dougie is some who puts in minimum effort in work or social life, doesn't care about fashion, cooking, keeping fit or the who fashion/makeup/hair thing in general.

 

I can't think of one PERSON I know who would date some as described about. Maybe Dougie needs a sugar baby? Paid girlfriend type thing.

[Blue Spiral]

You really have no idea how most women live.

 

Most women really have no idea how lucky they are.

 

Keeping it on-topic: Dougie, look at how they're already giving up on you and encouraging you to pay for sex. They don't want to solve your problem, they just want you to go away and stop talking about it.

[Moontiger]

Most women really have no idea how lucky they are.

 

Keeping it on-topic: Dougie, look at how they're already giving up on you and encouraging you to pay for sex. They don't want to solve your problem, they just want you to go away and stop talking about it.

 

Right, after dozens, if not hundreds of threads and thousands of reply with advice that has been ignored we are giving up. Do we have to wait until he makes 10,000 threads before it's not to quick to give up? 25,000?

[agent1607307371]

Keeping it on-topic: Dougie, look at how they're already giving up on you and encouraging you to pay for sex. They don't want to solve your problem, they just want you to go away and stop talking about it.

 

Already? Dougie's been her for years and is still in the same place he started at. He's not owed a woman to hold his hand as he refuses to kiss her and asks for oral. He wants to have sex but doesn't want to consider the other person involved? Then he's probably going to have to go pro or go home.

[LoveSoDeep]

BlueSpiral - You are a very different type of man and what works for you might work for Dougie....but then again it might not.

 

We do want to help Dougie....many of the women giving him advice are taken and have no reason to want to keep Dougie single or out of the gene pool. For those of us who are single...while Dougie may not be our type we still wish him happiness and success. Dating is a law of averages....for Dougie to have a better shot at success he needs to be more attractive to a large group of available women that why he's gotten the advice he's gotten so far such as lose weight and get a job...these are basically things that will make him more attractive to a large proportion of women....they aren't going to get him dates or sex they are basically cost of entry qualities.

 

Ambition.....most women don't even know how to put it into words but it's basically what drives a lot of attraction. it doesn't matter what your passion is there will be a woman who thinks that passion is attractive. Passion for music is no doubt attractive to some women. In fact put a man in front of me passionately playing just about any instrument and I'll be at lease marginally attracted to him...if he happens to be my type...well game on. lol You need to work on meeting people who will see your ambition in a positive light. Volunteer in areas where music lovers will be around....have you looked into playing in a band/orchestra for a community theater performance?

 

Finally your self esteem needs help. You come across as defeated and meek. This whole victim mentality and "Oh, whoa is me!I'll never find a woman who will like me. I'm not attractive. I have no experience. boo hoo!" - sorry, nothing is more unattractive that that mindset. Even if you think you're hiding it from women when you're dating....you're not. It something people just sense...and even if they can't put their finger on what it is they feel something is just off about you. I get this sense that you think you're not worthy or deserving of any of the things you really want. Until you believe you are worthy and these things are attainable you'll be stuck exactly where you are. So again I say THERAPY....you need to get to the bottom of this and ENA advice isn't going to get you deep enough to fix this.

[tiredofvampires]

I already know my deeper issue. I lack the ambition. I lack the passion. I lack the drive. I lack the motivation. It's honestly probably genetics, and some type of neurogical thing going on that's causing this. Trust me, I want to have all that stuff but I keep telling myself it's not even worth trying. Music is the only aspect of my life that keeps me motivated to pursue something.

 

So if you keep telling yourself it's not even worth trying, why wouldn't you address this before you ask for advice? THIS IS THE ABSOLUTE CORE ISSUE FOR YOU, DOUGIE.

If it's not even worth trying, what advice would you ever take?

 

If it's not even worth trying, can you see how that would apply to anything you want, how defeating that is?

 

If it's not even worth trying, no self-improvement strategy can or will work.

 

And if it's not even worth trying, how can you even blame your genetics? You say you aren't making excuses, but if you DON'T EVEN THINK IT'S WORTH TRYING, and all those lacks you listed then flow from that, how do you have any basis to blame your genes?

 

If you say, "What's the use?" to life, it will say, "What's the use?" back to you and give you nothing.

 

If you give up on yourself, life will give up on you. Nothing put in, nothing comes out.

 

How is that your genes? That is a cheap shot at not facing this.

 

Do you feel "telling yourself it's not even worth trying" is something out of your control? Does "telling yourself something" come from your DNA?

[reinventmyself]

So if you keep telling yourself it's not even worth trying, why wouldn't you address this before you ask for advice? THIS IS THE ABSOLUTE CORE ISSUE FOR YOU, DOUGIE.

 

If it's not even worth trying, can you see how that would apply to anything you want, how defeating that is?

 

If it's not even worth trying, no self-improvement strategy can or will work.

 

And if it's not even worth trying, how can you even blame your genetics? You say you aren't making excuses, but if you DON'T EVEN THINK IT'S WORTH TRYING, and all those lacks you listed then flow from that, how do you have any basis to blame your genes?

 

If you say, "What's the use?" to life, it will say, "What's the use?" back to you and give you nothing.

 

If you give up on yourself, life will give up on you. Nothing put in, nothing comes out.

 

How is that your genes? That is a cheap shot at not facing this.

 

Do you feel "telling yourself it's not even worth trying" is something out of your control? Does "telling yourself something" come from your DNA?

 

All I can say is if Dougie continues to vehemently defend all of this, then it's time he comes to terms with his fate and be at peace with it.

Life may just be easier that way.

[tiredofvampires]

I don't have any ambition either, Dougie, but that hasn't stopped me from getting a surprising amount of sex. It'll definitely make things complicated if you want a long-term relationship...but, given the situation you're in, that's sort of a Final Boss-type problem. Right now, you just need to focus on getting past Level 1.

 

Also, no one should be surprised that Dougie needs attention. Being ignored by your preferred gender is extremely traumatizing. It's psychological/sexual starvation, in a way. Obviously, most women don't realize this, because they're constantly bombarded by male attention. (You have to remember, Dougie: only women are allowed to be victims! If a man expresses feelings of weakness or helplessness, it's unattractive. The old gender roles don't apply anymore, except when they do.)

 

Sex is supposed to be idiot-proof, Dougie. There are seven billion people on this planet, and it isn't because hundreds of millions of men are so smooth with women. No, it's because we really like ****ing each other. It's baked right into our DNA. Raw chemical attraction should be doing most of the work for you. Yeah, you're not most women's picture of an ideal guy (hey, neither am I), but human beings are into all sorts of types and crazy sexual things, and the idea that a woman would be into you...well, it's much less crazy than some of the other things out there. I guarantee you: somewhere, there's a type of women that are attracted to the type of guy that you are. You just need to get out of your own way. Ditch the artifice (all the dating and relationship customs), focus on what you enjoy in life, and keep your eyes open.

 

I understand why you need to talk about this...but talking with us isn't going to help you get laid. You have enough problems to deal with as it is; if ENA is just another source of negativity for you, it's only going to drag you down and hurt your chances.

 

I'm just curious to know what you would advise Dougie. Specifically, not vaguely. It seems that most of your posts are geared towards telling Dougie that there is a female conspiracy to negate his feelings and keep him feeling lousy about himself, and your role is to continue to support his victim narrative (though you don't define it that way, that's the effect it would have if he listened to you).

 

I wonder what actual constructive advice you'd have for Dougie to "get laid"? He's not appealing to women, you are. What advice would you give him to bypass all the things we've said, offer something we haven't already suggested, for him to have that success in "just" getting laid? Factoring in that your personalities, intellect, looks, and social persona are probably wildly different. He recoiled from a kiss, and can't even get past doing that without freaking a woman (and himself) out. All the specific suggestions that then followed, he shot down.

 

Keep in mind when you respond that his dominant, driving psychic motto is why even bother.

 

You say none of us want to help him solve his problem. Since you think you DO want to help him solve his problem, let's hear how you'd help him solve it.

 

And while you're at it, unpack that statement, "you just need to get out of your own way". What does that mean -- and how is it different from what everyone else is saying?

 

As a footnote, the overpopulation of the earth is not due to people liking to boink eachother. There are huge socioeconomic reasons for this problem, and it is a problem, way beyond the scope of this thread.

[tiredofvampires]

All I can say is if Dougie continues to vehemently defend all of this, then it's time he comes to terms with his fate and be at peace with it.

Life may just be easier that way.

 

I would tend to agree.

 

If you believe you can't have or get what you want and GIVE UP ON YOURSELF, no one is the world can save you.

 

At that point, your only choice is to live out your life as best you can, realizing that being a quitter is the choice you've made, and get really clear on that as a choice.

 

"I am a quitter and I have to make peace with that" is your only option and it could be a path to peace if you can accept that you simply don't have it in you to do otherwise. It may be just what your life is meant to be -- you living in an imagined state of powerlessness that is so strong, you get okay with living in that perception of reality.

 

Of course, I don't believe anyone is this powerless, but if you believe it strongly enough, it will not play out otherwise.

[abitbroken]

Already? Dougie's been her for years and is still in the same place he started at. He's not owed a woman to hold his hand as he refuses to kiss her and asks for oral. He wants to have sex but doesn't want to consider the other person involved? Then he's probably going to have to go pro or go home.

 

Dougie has improved a TINY baby step bit because before he couldn't get a date, then he couldn't get a second date - he has had a second date now. Baby steps. But has not improved on the issue of his threads being a life of their own and that he is unhelpable because he doesn't really want help. But maybe second dates are by default or just were bound to happen to him without effort. the numbers game.

 

But I do suggest that if a woman kisses you and uses tongue, you don't tell her you want to "take it slow" and stop her. Kissing is what you wanted! And if you don't want to kiss at all, you don't put yourself in situations where you are alone to do so until you are ready. Telling someone "You want to take it slow" is when after the first date she wants to introduce you to her mom. Then you can verbally tell her "let's take it slow." I would not recoil and pull away if she tries to kiss you. If she tries to undo your belt, you can gently take her hands and put them around your waist and tell her that you are saving it for later or want to get to know her better before going any farther and continue with the kissing and let it stay at that. You can have a conversation at a time when you are not kissing - some future date that you aren't into flings and want to get to know her better and continue to date first. Go on dates and if she is not down with not having sex right away, then she might not be for you. Go on dates with a variety of women to get practice with your boundaries as well. And when you meet the right one, you'll be more ready to be okay telling her that you don't want to jump in the sack.

[reinventmyself]

Dougie has improved a TINY baby step bit because before he couldn't get a date, then he couldn't get a second date - he has had a second date now. Baby steps. But has not improved on the issue of his threads being a life of their own and that he is unhelpable because he doesn't really want help. But maybe second dates are by default or just were bound to happen to him without effort. the numbers game.

 

But I do suggest that if a woman kisses you and uses tongue, you don't tell her you want to "take it slow" and stop her. Kissing is what you wanted! And if you don't want to kiss at all, you don't put yourself in situations where you are alone to do so until you are ready. Telling someone "You want to take it slow" is when after the first date she wants to introduce you to her mom. Then you can verbally tell her "let's take it slow." I would not recoil and pull away if she tries to kiss you. If she tries to undo your belt, you can gently take her hands and put them around your waist and tell her that you are saving it for later or want to get to know her better before going any farther and continue with the kissing and let it stay at that. You can have a conversation at a time when you are not kissing - some future date that you aren't into flings and want to get to know her better and continue to date first. Go on dates and if she is not down with not having sex right away, then she might not be for you. Go on dates with a variety of women to get practice with your boundaries as well. And when you meet the right one, you'll be more ready to be okay telling her that you don't want to jump in the sack.

 

gosh . .I can't read all the responses to Dougie. I admire everyone's patience and commitment though.

I glance over them for the most part to see if there is any progress

 

But. .didn't he say he pretty much say he wants sex. . but has an issue kissing a woman?

Stop me here before I go on . .pleeeaaase

[reinventmyself]

Plus, I rather have my penis in my partners mouth. Or her vagina in mine. Too me, those actions would turn me on more than just tongue swinging.

I did have a "stripper" try to put her tongue down my throat. It was weird to be honest because it was unexpected, so I backed off.

Maybe I just don't like the act of kissing??

 

Dang it. . I went back and looked.

 

This rather objectifies a woman don't you think??

 

You wouldn't mind a woman going down on you but you are off put by the thought of an intimate kiss?

 

You have know that this is what women can read on you, whether it's subconscious or you wear the tshirt.

Sorry. .but this suggests some fear or dislike of women in general. Not just this but the whole fear based tone about all of this dilemma.

 

I don't mean to sound insensitive but you can't have one without the other.

Of course, unless you want a hooker.

But wait, that's been suggested.

 

So let's consider not coaching him how to kiss or hold hands or how about a chin implant?? but rather ask him about his upbringing and childhood and why all the fear.

The rest all seems to be symptoms of a bigger issue.

[LoveSoDeep]

So let's consider not coaching him how to kiss or hold hands or how about a chin implant?? but rather ask him about his upbringing and childhood and why all the fear.

The rest all seems to be symptoms of a bigger issue

 

This is exactly why I keep saying THERAPY! These are exactly the questions Dougie needs to be asked and it would better for him if he had a qualified professional around to hear his answers and work with him. We all could ask him these hard questions but since none of us are trained professionals, I fear we could do more harm than good.

 

Great now I'm fearing things...I think I need to get out and enjoy the sunshine!

[reinventmyself]

Great now I'm fearing things...I think I need to get out and enjoy the sunshine!

 

Ha ha. . .same here!

 

Youre right. . I am not qualified either

[abitbroken]

gosh . .I can't read all the responses to Dougie. I admire everyone's patience and commitment though.

I glance over them for the most part to see if there is any progress

 

But. .didn't he say he pretty much say he wants sex. . but has an issue kissing a woman?

Stop me here before I go on . .pleeeaaase

 

He vascillates between wanting sex - but then not wanting it unless he gets to know someone and is in a relationship. But yes - the entire issue is that he is having a problem with the preliminary thing - kissing, or going on a third date - so it makes his want for an ongoing relationship or cheap sex pretty moot. I think he makes getting more dates or kissing as the big issue so he can prove to us why he won't have a longer term thing - and then starts another thread about what women find attractive, etc, that is self defeating. I will probably bow out if this thread quickly, too, no doubt. I was just a little surprised to read the kissing thing, as he has started threads for several years about not getting to that yet. So like the rubber necker I am I had to look and got sucked in

[abitbroken]

This is exactly why I keep saying THERAPY! These are exactly the questions Dougie needs to be asked and it would better for him if he had a qualified professional around to hear his answers and work with him. We all could ask him these hard questions but since none of us are trained professionals, I fear we could do more harm than good.

 

Great now I'm fearing things...I think I need to get out and enjoy the sunshine!

 

YES. If he can find out how to be happy with himself for himself - he wouldn't be in his predicament, whether he was a confirmed bachelor for the rest of his life, dated a lot of women or had an LTR - finding out how to love yourself is key

[abitbroken]

Plus, I rather have my penis in my partners mouth. Or her vagina in mine. Too me, those actions would turn me on more than just tongue swinging.

I did have a "stripper" try to put her tongue down my throat. It was weird to be honest because it was unexpected, so I backed off.

Maybe I just don't like the act of kissing??

 

Dang it. . I went back and looked.

 

This rather objectifies a woman don't you think??

 

You wouldn't mind a woman going down on you but you are off put by the thought of an intimate kiss?

 

You have know that this is what women can read on you, whether it's subconscious or you wear the tshirt.

Sorry. .but this suggests some fear or dislike of women in general. Not just this but the whole fear based tone about all of this dilemma.

 

I don't mean to sound insensitive but you can't have one without the other.

Of course, unless you want a hooker.

But wait, that's been suggested.

 

So let's consider not coaching him how to kiss or hold hands or how about a chin implant?? but rather ask him about his upbringing and childhood and why all the fear.

The rest all seems to be symptoms of a bigger issue.

 

missed this subtext somewhere. I will tell you my exhusband wasn't into kissing. And it was hard to feel connected emotionally, hard to believe he was attracted to me, etc. I could be in a relationship where there was kissing, but I could not be in a relationship where there was sex and zero kissing. It is a sign of not being comfortable with intimacy beyond the physical.

[IAmFCA]

Dougie - and others -

 

We have all agreed that you are reluctant to change, and you say the same given low motivation levels.

 

Why fight it? You are how you are. Accept it, and target women with similar priorities as you: low effort, meaningless sex, minimal levels of emotional engagement.

 

The only person who says you have to change is you. If you REALLY wanted to change, you would have. I say, stay who you are, and shape your goals appropriately.

 

In the end, the dating and mating game is about "what do you offer" matched up with "who wants that?" You've identified what you are willing to offer. So, match your goal with the anount of effort expended and success is yours.

[boltnrun]

I don't remember what book it was, but one of the main characters had a favorite activity.

 

He'd go home, get a bottle of beer, then think about all of the people in the world who (he believed) "wronged" him. He'd focus on each and every perceived "wrong", concentrating on the "wrongs" until he'd worked himself up into tears. Then he'd sit there with tears rolling down his face. Only after that activity was he able to relax and go to sleep.

 

I think Dougie enjoys his complaining. He enjoys lamenting his (perceived) fate in life.

 

If he were to succeed with a woman, he'd have to give up his complaining. And he likes his complaining. It makes him feel good, plus it gets him the attention of umpteen people on the internet (not sure if he's using other message boards).

 

This is the only reason I can think of why he stubbornly refuses to consider any and all advice, or why he insists he's already tried everything and nothing works. Or why he puts up ridiculous barriers (NO kissing, but I want ORAL! And she must be good at oral or I'm out. Oh, and NO flat chested women either, and they must be at least a 5 on my attractiveness scale!)

 

I think each of us who has posted has tried to help. I don't know Dougie, so the idea that I WANT him to fail is ridiculous. I'd like to see him succeed and meet a great woman for him so he can realize that giving up the complaining victim role actually might allow him to be happy. But I'm not sure he'll ever get there.

[Moontiger]

I don't remember what book it was, but one of the main characters had a favorite activity.

 

He'd go home, get a bottle of beer, then think about all of the people in the world who (he believed) "wronged" him. He'd focus on each and every perceived "wrong", concentrating on the "wrongs" until he'd worked himself up into tears. Then he'd sit there with tears rolling down his face. Only after that activity was he able to relax and go to sleep.

 

I think Dougie enjoys his complaining. He enjoys lamenting his (perceived) fate in life.

 

If he were to succeed with a woman, he'd have to give up his complaining. And he likes his complaining. It makes him feel good, plus it gets him the attention of umpteen people on the internet (not sure if he's using other message boards).

 

This is the only reason I can think of why he stubbornly refuses to consider any and all advice, or why he insists he's already tried everything and nothing works. Or why he puts up ridiculous barriers (NO kissing, but I want ORAL! And she must be good at oral or I'm out. Oh, and NO flat chested women either, and they must be at least a 5 on my attractiveness scale!)

 

I think each of us who has posted has tried to help. I don't know Dougie, so the idea that I WANT him to fail is ridiculous. I'd like to see him succeed and meet a great woman for him so he can realize that giving up the complaining victim role actually might allow him to be happy. But I'm not sure he'll ever get there.

 

You forgot about the world wide womyn conspiracy. You know, the one where we all plan to keep random men on the internet from getting laid.

[Blue Spiral]

I'm just curious to know what you would advise Dougie. Specifically, not vaguely.

 

If Dougie wants specific advice, he can PM me for it. I'm not telling you, because, quite frankly, this issue is better handled in a male-only space. Feel free to consider this the 21st century version of a treehouse with the sign "No Gurlz Allowed".

 

I also like your "victim narrative" bit. Men are expected to be sensitive and modern...but, if we appear just a little too weak or whiny, we suddenly become unattractive "victims". Please make up your mind about what you want us to be.

 

I love how you ladies are putting words in my mouth, btw. Yes, I totally believe in a Worldwide Womyn Conspiracy, I'm sure you meet in the Fortress of Doom and everything. C'mon now. I just think that, if a lion is going to ask a lamb for the best ways to devour a lot of lambs, the lamb's advice may have an ulterior motive hidden in it, even if it's subconscious.