Batya33

I think it is a shame when people label someone who is non-assertive/wishy washy/doormat-ish as "nice." Often that is not based on niceness at all - it is based on insecurity or a need to manipulate as in - I will say yes to everything you want and then I will use it as a form of control. To me a person who is nice is nice to himself/herself, is reasonably confident and assertive and is giving from the healthy sense of caring not from insecurity. If we referred to the doormat types as "doormat guys" instead of "nice guys" then it wouldn't suggest that the women who don't like these so-called "nice" guys are the ones with the problem. Thanks.

It sounds like you jump in very fast because you need to have a boyfriend and become intimate before you have developed a solid sense of trust and intimacy - emotional intimacy. Why the rush? If you really think about it my guess is it is not from how you feel about the other person but how you feel about yourself - vulnerable and needy without someone you can call your "man" or your "boyfriend." This makes you vulnerable to men who take advantage of a needy person as he may be doing and after awhile they will see you as clingy.

Here's the real problem - you are vulnerable because for some crazy reason you think you have to have someone in your life to be a worthy person. Of course you can see your ex as a friend - and no, don't be manipulative and tell your bf about that - meet him in a public place and hear what he has to say. Then, if you decide to give things another shot, break up with the current boyfriend first and take at least a few weeks off with dating no one, being in contact with neither of them - be with yourself. If you don't feel fulfilled on your own you will risk making poor choices in a mate because it will be out of need which is not a basis for a long term relationship. As far as the immaturity - this is who he is. Accept it or not. He may "grow up" over the years, he may not.

Call it biology or whatever, but I am not attracted to a man who is not confident enough to ask me out for at least a drink or cup of coffee. I also tend to doubt his sincere interest in me if he is not willing to do that. I may be a professional "by day," but when it comes to relationships I am pretty traditional - I want the man to be "stronger" than me and ready to be assertive and step up to the plate - no "yes men" or doormats for me, thank you! I have no real problem getting up the nerve to ask a man out - I've done it several times and if I thought it was effective in finding a long term relationship, I would have done it more often. Take "FWB" as an example - typically, the woman ends up getting attached or wanting more, or agreed to be involved in that situation with the secret hope that it would develop into more. So, in that situation ostensibly the man and woman call each other 50/50 - when either of them wants sex - but more than likely it ends up being uneven because the woman wants more.

Good point that the pursuit takes different forms. I guess for these purposes I would define "pursuit" as the man calling the woman and asking her out for a date - I do not know of any healthy long term relationships where the woman did most of the asking in the first month or so of the relationship. As my mother used to say, half kidding, "you have to chase men and then let them catch you." I think a lot of confusion results from women who claim not to need the traditional or conventional path of dating - letting the man pursue - and make excuses as to why the man isn't pursuing (he's very busy, he's shy, etc) - but in reality end up feeling uncomfortable if they need to be the aggressor, do the asking, the planning (and I suppose the treating). I see this also come up with women who claim to be ok with casual sex but secretly expect the man to then ask them out on a proper date or pursue them as if they wanted more than just sex. These are some of the reasons I think it works out best most of the time if men do most of the asking out in the beginning and women respond with enthusiasm, etc so that there is less of a risk of miscommunication in the beginning. True, this puts more of the onus on the man but if the woman is behaving in an approachable way, the risk of rejection is less.

I meant doing most of the pursuing in the beginning - and by that I mean most of the asking out and initiating telephone calls in the beginning - I wouldn't consider writing to someone online to express interest much of a "pursuit" at all and certainly not "most of the pursuing" if the guy responds with an invitation for a date. I realize I didn't define "most of" the pursuing. As far as bringing up the exclusivity issue - for me it has just so happened that where I am the one who brings it up first, the relationship usually doesn't work out. Typically I have brought it up first where the man wanted me to sleep with him, something I will not do outside of an exclusive relationship. Having said that, I would say it depends on the circumstances. If the couple has been dating for awhile and the man hasn't brought it up yet I see nothing wrong with raising the issue. I would wonder a little if the woman brought it up right in the beginning.

Just keep in mind that the closeness you feel with this person is based on typing and talking - it takes consistent time in person to know whether that closeness translates into real life compatibility. You can talk till you're out of breath but until you are in each other's presense and see his body language, vibes, energy, the way he treats people - his family, waitstaff, co-workers, bosses, the elderly lady ahead of you on line - the way he treats you in person - what he is like - in person - when he is ecstatic, sad, mad, annoyed, edgy, etc. - he is virtually a complete stranger to you as far as knowing whether the two of you have in person chemistry and compatibility. That he is moving here puts incredible pressure that is not needed. Please reconsider - it is so worth the $ to meet in person several times over the next few months and see what you have in common. I know of so many stories - including my own - where typing and talking were irrelevant to whether you clicked in person. Added to that all the safety issues - you have no idea if he is who he says he is - and you're taking unecessary risks here, in my humble opinion. I hope when he gets here you meet him in a public place and do not let him come to your place or get in your car until you've been out on at least a few dates.

I think it's interesting how initiating contact on line is seen as analogous to a woman asking a man out on a date. I personally don't see it that way at all - if I spoke first to a man in public and then he asked me out, I would have said that he initiated asking me out. I agree that no one should "chase" - the woman should meet the man half way by saying yes to the date, being appreciative about the date, saying thank you and being a good listener, all of that encouragement. Playing games like making the guy wait days before you return his call, pretending to be busy even if he asks you out in advance - just to "play" hard to get I personally find silly (even though I am sure I have done it at least once in my life and it has been done to me!)

I would say probably many in answer to your question but I wonder (don't mean to steal your thread!) how many long term healthy/happy relationships/marriages result from the woman doing most of the pursuing in the beginning - not just asking out for the first date. Of course, please don't answer my question if you find the OP's question more interesting or relevant, it's just that I had posed my question to the OP in a different thread she started. My answer to my own question is I know of none.

I don't buy all the cliches "when you're not looking, it will happen . . " etc-[ I know plenty of happily married couples who were proactive in finding someone - either through on line or getting involved in a hobby where there was a high likelihood of single men being there. What is good to know is that the people you believe would be right for you at 26 may very well be entirely different from the people who will be right for you in 5 or 10 years. Definitely true for me as well as for several of my friends who got married in their 20s and are now divorced. I would avoid abstract notions like fate and soulmates and other cliches and focus on the concrete- you are the common denominator in all your relationships. Consider whether anything you do might be an issue and consider whether your criteria for a mate are realistic and reasonable. For example, at 26 I would never have imagined I would be attracted to a significantly overweight man but at 36, I sure was. At 26 I was ignorant of the importance of chemistry and physical attraction in finding a mate - i was just so focused on getting married and picking mr. right on paper - at 40 I know that chemistry and physical attraction are essential to a long term relationship. There are other changes I have experienced which impact who I am attracted to and even who I want as close friends. So, don't sabotage yourself by having such a chip on your shoulder - if at all possible. It is not a competition. One of my friends who got married a few weeks ago -first time - will be 40 in a few weeks - barely dated after college, joined a dating site in early 2005, met the love of her life a month later.

I think most men are flattered by a woman who pursues them in the beginning. I also think few of those men are going to choose that woman to be in a long term relationship with. If he is already interested, he most likely will ask you out unless he is unavailable or has serious emotional problems (and then, why bother?) - if he is not interested you pursuing him will flatter him and maybe result in a brief fling but that's probably about it. Of course we're all human and it is very "human" for "most" men that they prefer to be the main pursuer in the beginning - if the woman takes that role away their interest level might be the same but they may end up a little confused about the woman (i.e. wondering if perhaps she is desperate, or too aggressive for them, etc). So, I have always preferred to let the man do the asking and planning in the very beginning and once we are an "item" I am of course happy to meet him at least halfway. I also have no issue with you asking him to participate in a group outing (if he calls you) or to mention a movie or party you'd like to go to. The men are telling you to ask him out because that makes it a lot easier for the man. If you think about it in the long term though, if making it easier now risks that he may be turned off/not interested in a woman who does the pursuing you will not get what you want. Instead, ask men "how many men do you know in happy long term relationships where the woman did most of the pursuing in the beginning (or throughout)." That's the relevant question in my opinion.

I know of many people who come on very strong on the first few dates - they get caught up in the romance/puppy love, etc and then realize just as quickly that that is all it was. This is why a thick skin is essential for dating.

Same here - I would date someone who was the same religion as me (I am not Catholic) even if he was a different race.

I agree with the age difference issue and even with e-mail and texting etc I still think the best way to ask out a woman you have sincere interest in is to call her on the phone. In part, had you done so you would have a quick answer to your question.

Most men I know express that opinion when they want to flatter the woman but be off the hook as far as having to tell the woman that she is not the right match for him. I think this is the same guy you posted about on another thread where you described him as very shy but in my opinion he was not shy at all, just, unfortunately, not "that" interested in you to ask you out. I have heard the whole "educated, successful professional women are intimidating." I am one of those. I don't think I have ever intimidated a man who was a good match for me. If you truly believe you come accross as intimidating, I would consider whether your body language is friendly (not flirty, just not cold) and whether you are judging your impression by the impression you give off at a bar. I find that a bar is typically a bad place to make the right impression because if you are drunk well, then, you might give the wrong impression and if you are not and the man is you might come accross as uptight. In any event, most guys who already got the woman in question to kiss them would have no problem asking out the woman since the most important question - attraction - would be answered for them. Moreover, he works at a bar and flirts a lot I am sure with many of the customers - not an example of a guy who is intimidated or that shy that he can't ask out a woman who is as available to him as you are (since you kissed him).

By romantic I mean that you are considering dating this person, not just being platonic friends. Don't confuse those "close" feelings for the close feelings you develop for someone who you spend time in person with - that is, from a dating perspective - of course you can feel close to a pen pal.

It sounds like he's not the least bit shy - and even if he is a little shy, definitely not too shy to ask you out. Also, he now knows for sure that you are interested since you "hooked up" with him already. My guess is since he works at a bar and is paid to be nice to customers (the nicer he is, the bigger the tips) you might have misread some of his looks to be looks of interest in you romantically. It sounds unfortunately like he is not "that" into you. He will definitely be willing to hook up with you again, just be sure that you are ok with a fling and/or ok with being the pursuer throughout this relationship, with the risk that if/when he does meet someone he is "that" into he may reject you. If I were you I would let him make any more moves and unless he calls you up and asks you out in advance for a proper date I would remove him from your dating "radar."

I would be careful in the future about texting - you never know if he received it and if you truly want to get in touch, pick up the phone and call. Also, you can't be sure whether he is interested in dating a woman (as opposed to just a fling) whose focus is on the fact that she was too drunk to remember. Might be his idea of fun - as it is yours - but not his idea of who he sees in his life with any permanence. Either way, by texting you are being passive instead of proactive. For me, I prefer to have the man make the first move and do most of the pursuing in the beginning but if I were to choose to be the pursuer I would do so directly, not indirectly by texting.

There could be infinite reasons he is motivated to see you but doesn't want a relationship with you- it could be the sex, the ability to tell others that he is part of a couple, the flattery from knowing you are into him, etc. Why analyze? He has been straight with you from the beginning. Figure out if his deal - no strings attached sex or sexual intimacy - makes you feel good about you. If the answer is no, ask yourself why you would do such a thing to yourself. Also realize that you are at risk for pregnancy or STD's from someone who is not committed to you.

I agree that you shouldn't pursue a profession that you are not passionate about. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but it seems to be based on generalizations, cliches, and not facts. I for one became a lawyer because it was my dream from when I was very young and was lucky to get involved in politics, I paid my way through most of law school and took out a moderate loan which I paid back in 2 years. Because of my law degree, I have been able to make a real difference in peoples' lives including those with mental illnesses, people seeking asylum in this country, struggling artists, among others. I work with many people and have worked with many people who use their legal training and license to help others, often for free. I also think it's unhealthy to be so negative about an entire profession - if you don't want to pursue a career in law that's fine but since you likely will come in contact with at least a few lawyers socially or through business why not judge each one as an individual? You might be surprised. Just like there are bad lawyers each profession has its own "bad apples."

The flaw here is in thinking you ever had more than a penpal in this woman. She is a complete stranger to you from a romantic perspective -- you may have developed feelings for the image you have of her from on line but until you spend consistent in-person time with a person you cannot know if your romantic feelings have any basis in reality. Ask yourself- if you are interested in dating people, why you are keeping the computer screen between you and meeting someone in person?

Could be semantics that concerns me. Yes I am open about my values when it comes to sex (as soon as the topic comes up that is and always before we spend time at each other's places so that I feel comfortable being alone with him as far as expectations). Yes, we make an agreement but in several cases the man has felt the same way - saw sex as something that doesn't happen right away or outside a commitment.

Not a bargaining chip, either. I may be very aroused, interested, etc but I know that I will not feel good about myself or comfortable unless I have a real commitment from the man in question and feel that I know him well enough to share myself - and I usually give it at least a few months to figure that out, and at times, more. I am never ever a tease though - I am direct about what I am comfortable with and not comfortable with. I have never foregone a relationship with a good, loving man by following my values. I have screened out those who prioritize sex above all else which is fine with me.

All this means (sort of a repeat from what I posted earlier) is that you need to get a life so that you are not dependent on only the people you happen to know (since you are uncomfortable being a "third wheel"). There are many opportunities for internships, volunteer work, or even taking lessons - in french, tennis, swimming - whatever interests you. You have no idea whether he will be in your life next month, next year, etc. If you do want to go out and meet others someday, they will not want to hear that most of what you did other than watch tv, eat and sleep had to do with an ex boyfriend. At least, not men who have diverse interests and are smart and ambitious (of course I am not sure what your type is). Even if you do end up with him, the more independent and self-fulfilled you can be, the better.

I disagree that not having sex is a form of control. For me and for many others it is simply consistent with our values - and that goes for both men and women.