Going in Circles

[Blue Spiral]

Now that I've had a chance to think about this, I want to address it again. Dougie, please take a close look at this. This is the perfect distillation of what I've been talking about.

 

Dougie, Spiral, lit seems you guys are straight, so I'll tell you this: IF YOU WANT WOMEN TO SLEEP WITH YOU, YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO THEM.

 

Why, that sounds like the dreaded Nice Guy ™ approach! Listen to their problems, presumably be nice to them, and hope to get sex out of it. Why would a woman ever encourage you to do something that they're so opposed to?

 

This reminds me of my youth, Dougie. (Ahh, the late '90s. Remember the brief swing dancing craze??) When women would give me relationship advice, this was almost word-for-word what they'd tell me to do. Listen to them, be there for them, and (implied) wait for something to happen. Let me describe the cycle for you:

 

1. I was young, I had zero sexual/relationship experience, I asked female friends for help getting laid. They gave me the advice I described above.

 

2. I tried it...and it did not work. They kept going back to the guys they complained about. Or they said that they could only be with someone they had a Deep Emotional Connection with--thus, not me--except for those random hot guys that they met and randomly ****ed an hour later.

 

3. When I told my female friends about this, they were aghast. "You thought that just being nice meant they had to have sex with you??" No, I just did what they told me. "That advice was to help you be a better person!" Except...I didn't ask how to be a better person, I asked how to get laid. And I didn't know much, back then, but I could already see that those two things weren't usually related.

 

The moral of the story is that, when you ask women for advice, they're usually going to give you advice that solves their (gender's) problems, and not yours. It won't help you get what you want, but it will make you into the sort of man that they want in society (even if they want nothing to do with you).

 

Dougie, all you want is to get laid. And they're trying to give you a super-advanced course on becoming a Female-Approved, Fully Functional Adult Male, which could take years or even decades. Let me tell you: when that fails to get you laid, and you come back here and complain about it, they are going to viciously attack you, because how dare you think that simple decent behavior entitles you to sex?? Even though...that's what you asked for help with in the first place. Do you see? You want A, and they tell you how to get B, which they claim is necessary to acquire A. Not only does it not work, but they later slap you in the face for wanting A in the first place. Their proposed solution has little to nothing to do with your problem.

[notalady]

I do listen to women. Many have said, just be yourself and eventually you'll find the "right type of girl" who'll love you for all your flaws.

 

So basically I don't do anything, right?

 

I think that "be yourself" advice is used quite a lot. In a way, it's true, ie, don't fake or pretend to be someone else. It doesn't however address the second part of the issue, what if "yourself" isn't good enough? What if there are too many unappealing things about you? The answer would be to make improvements where you can, to the best that you can, and to make yourself and your life better all over, for your own sake not just to attract others.

 

Or alternatively, do nothing and hope for the best but expect the worst.

[notalady]

Blue Spiral, I haven't seen you make any suggestion to solve Dougie's problem of not getting laid, only that of you complaining about women. What constructive advice do you have for Dougie?

[tiredofvampires]

The moral of the story is that, when you ask women for advice, they're usually going to give you advice that solves their (gender's) problems, and not yours. It won't help you get what you want, but it will make you into the sort of man that they want in society (even if they want nothing to do with you).

 

I guess you missed Moontiger's story.

 

Ladies, I'm loving all the stories of "frogs-to-princes" personal stories of men who got out there and made it happen (with more than luck)! It's been a bright spot in an otherwise dimly-lit thread. Thanks for sharing these heartwarming stories!

 

Too bad Dougie's not going to be one of them.

 

Dougie, all you want is to get laid. And they're trying to give you a super-advanced course on becoming a Female-Approved, Fully Functional Adult Male, which could take years or even decades.

 

If he'd started when he signed onto ENA with the full make-over (and that means more than physical stuff), I'm quite certain he WOULD have been laid by now.

 

BS, you are the ONLY male on Dougie's threads that talks the way you talk. Other men here have been laid and laid many times over. They have also had relationships, been in love, the whole nine yards, which Dougie has also said he is looking for (in threads past and this very thread, he just changes his tune every other month.) And you are the only one suggesting that the crowd here is vicious, self-serving, disqualified from advice, and giving poor advice. So it's just you. You don't only misrepresent women, you also don't represent men well.

 

You're an anomaly, and you would do Dougie a bigger favor telling him that than trying to sell him a personality and mentality that most people in the world don't share, as proven by the fact that both genders on ENA have spoken in one voice advising Dougie.

[Dougie_D]

I think it would be great if everyone thought they were attractive and had something to offer. So do you mean women who you consider unattractive are acting like they are worth something and they shouldn't??

 

Look at Lizzie Valesquez - she was told she was the "world's ugliest woman". Seriously. It was all over the internet. And instead of saying "well, since I have this condition that makes me look different and have zero body fat, I should go sleep under a rock" - she did the opposite. She is beautiful on the inside and it is apparent to everyone - it just radiates everywhere. Lots of people want to get to know her and she has done a lot for anti-bullying messages. You quickly get over her very different appearance when you watch talks she has given, etc, or videos about her and you see the beauty in her for sure.

 

So who are YOU to judge that its a bad thing for women to carry themselves in a way that seems like they feel they are attractive??

 

That's not what I meant really. I'm talking about women who go after attractive men and completely diss an average male.

 

For instance, my roommate continues to tell me "do these types of women really think I'd go out with them?"

 

And we did a test. The same women that messaged him who was less attractive, he would send me their profiles. I would message them, and nothing happened. Few weeks later, the same chicks would visit him. It was funny, because he was so frustrated why they kept visiting.

 

So basically, women reach "out of their leagues" more than men. And women call men the shallow ones.. Go figure.

[tiredofvampires]

No career, I'm relatively poor, and I didn't really try in school, though I tested very well. (It drove my guidance counselor crazy. My test results were near the top of the list, but I had no interest in life. And still don't!)

 

Dougie and I are probably about even, in many areas. I'm just luckier.

 

Okay, I thought you had some corporate-type job or something higher paying -- one reason you think women see you as a "provider" type. Whatever your job, it's not minimum wage and menial, of this I'm sure.

 

I don't think it's luck.

 

First, you have looks that I imagine a lot of women find appealing, without having to work too hard. And I imagine they are carrying you through, because at 37 with nothing else to offer a woman, you're going to have to have some kind of sex appeal, physically. This is going to thin out though as you age, so your longest celibacy days are ahead of you, which is why I think it's good you're taking advantage of this biological window where physical aging signs have not hit big-time yet. You probably don't have any glaring signs of not taking care of your body, even if you're not a "hot body".

 

So that's a big one, for women who just want to get laid (which is already a minority of women, at this age).

 

Next, I suspect your projectile semen, "dig my flab/farts", and other juvenile/crass jokes are on the low side.

 

I don't sense you to be a man who acts like a drunk 20-year-old frat boy at every opportunity, as a way of socially looking cool or trying to fit in in your mid-thirties.

 

Also, when a woman reaches out to kiss you, you don't recoil from her and come to ENA saying you want to bypass kissing, or otherwise need to get to know the woman better.

 

I'm guessing you know how to work women so that you're getting them to read you a certain way -- which takes a bit of cleverness, and manipulation/opportunism Dougie would never be able to pull off (somewhat to his credit). I think you can probably read women and situations better than Dougie, and use them to your advantage. I don't keep up with your journal, so I don't know the current stories, but a man who is trying to escape women he almost didn't want in the first place has some tricks up his sleeve.

 

You use fairly precise logic here, even though I don't like your message. Dougie is all over the map with his reasoning -- there's lots of illogic. So you may be ahead there, interactively.

 

You don't live in L.A. So the market and social climate present you differently (and I think your locale is working in your favor -- lots of sexual repression and conservatism, so you provide a contrast).

 

So from a SURFACE standpoint, you are not Dougie's ENA twin, just with more sheer luck. When it comes to "JUST GETTING LAID."

[tiredofvampires]

Not sure that's even him. I just took it as an ' in your face' video he took liberty to.

 

Yes, I know it's not him (BS). So I shared your read on that.

[tiredofvampires]

So basically, women reach "out of their leagues" more than men.

 

So what happened to the women your roommate was saying such mean, disrespectful things about? Those women didn't get that guy "out of their league", did they?

 

You've just proven that the playing field is even.

 

In an earlier post, Dougie, you said you'd be interested in a woman with all the negative traits you have (lazy, unambitious, etc. etc.)

 

I think if you moved out of L.A., perhaps to a state/area more like your hometown, and sought out a woman who was equal to you in her low ambitions, perhaps to include physical self-care, enjoyed the kinds of social circles you do, can laugh at off-color jokes, and matches your narrow set of interests, you would have a chance.

 

I suggest you do this: move, and find a girl next door, maybe slightly nerdy or quirky, who is in your "league" socially, mentally, physically, personality-wise, in your socioeconomic bracket, etc., and you'll have a shot at this.

 

Some girls are fine with guys that are not charming, don't have wealth or ambition, and are average in looks. You won't find women who are in high demand themselves this way -- but you might have a shot at a woman who likes you "for you", absolutely no self-improvement necessary. It would not be a "just for sex" arrangement most likely, she would probably want a boyfriend.

 

You won't get the kinds of women you are chasing, but you'd likely get laid if such a woman liked you.

[tiredofvampires]

Shout-out for the tip-off for Lizzy Velasquez, guys. I didn't know about her before now! I love her!

 

I would call her classy, elegant, vivacious, incredibly charismatic, inspiring, and clearly beautiful on the inside.

 

From a sheer physical standpoint, though, I would not call her beautiful. It would feel dishonest for me to say otherwise. I'd call her interesting-looking, and from an artistic/aesthetic standpoint, everyone has a kind of beauty. It's like trees -- every tree is beautiful, but some have a kind of beauty that is more about "character" and uniqueness than features being "pleasing." She does not have that latter kind of beauty imo.

 

Her inner beauty radiates out and transcends this reality. And probably I'd find more appealing about her as I hung out with her. But she is not attractive from a base physical standpoint. Her spirit animates her and lends her the aura she has (and lots of people who have more "objectively" good-looking features lack that inner quality, or even have enough inner "ugliness" that it makes them look unattractive to me).

 

LOTS of men have the advantage of this phenomenon, and I would even argue that if Lizzy were a man, she would already be married with a child (as it is, she seems to be unpartnered, though if that's wrong, someone correct me.) That's not to say she couldn't find anyone, and I've also seen stories of equally "unattractive" women who had partners, and in one case I know of (Heather Rose, a late screenwriter who had cerebral palsy -- see the movie, "Dance Me to My Song"), her boyfriend was actually really objectively "hot." It's just a rarity all around.

[notalady]

TOV made some vey good observations about both BS and Dougie. Although I suspect Dougie's response will be, I can't do any of these because of XYZ.

[Dougie_D]

So what happened to the women your roommate was saying such mean, disrespectful things about? Those women didn't get that guy "out of their league", did they?

 

You've just proven that the playing field is even.

 

In an earlier post, Dougie, you said you'd be interested in a woman with all the negative traits you have (lazy, unambitious, etc. etc.)

 

I think if you moved out of L.A., perhaps to a state/area more like your hometown, and sought out a woman who was equal to you in her low ambitions, perhaps to include physical self-care, enjoyed the kinds of social circles you do, can laugh at off-color jokes, and matches your narrow set of interests, you would have a chance.

 

I suggest you do this: move, and find a girl next door, maybe slightly nerdy or quirky, who is in your "league" socially, mentally, physically, personality-wise, in your socioeconomic bracket, etc., and you'll have a shot at this.

 

Some girls are fine with guys that are not charming, don't have wealth or ambition, and are average in looks. You won't find women who are in high demand themselves this way -- but you might have a shot at a woman who likes you "for you", absolutely no self-improvement necessary. It would not be a "just for sex" arrangement most likely, she would probably want a boyfriend.

 

You won't get the kinds of women you are chasing, but you'd likely get laid if such a woman liked you.

 

I've gone after these types of women, and they all become only frieands. They are obviously not attracted to me on a physical level. That's the problem. I've talked about this before. Even my roommate has said "this girl is your perfect match, but she thinks you are below her league"

 

The problem is that there are too many horny men who are willing to "dip down" in their leagues. So if I'm a 5 and she's a 5 but has men wanting to date her or she's dated men higher than a 5, then she thinks she's higher than a 5, when she probably shouldn't be. Does that make sense?

 

In a perfect world you have 1-10 aligned parallel to each other. The 1/1 2/2 3/3, etc.

 

But instead it's more like.

 

Men - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Women - - - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

[dias]

Have you ever heard "too much analysis leads to paralysis" ?

[Dougie_D]

Shout-out for the tip-off for Lizzy Velasquez, guys. I didn't know about her before now! I love her!

 

I would call her classy, elegant, vivacious, incredibly charismatic, inspiring, and clearly beautiful on the inside.

 

From a sheer physical standpoint, though, I would not call her beautiful. It would feel dishonest for me to say otherwise. I'd call her interesting-looking, and from an artistic/aesthetic standpoint, everyone has a kind of beauty. It's like trees -- every tree is beautiful, but some have a kind of beauty that is more about "character" and uniqueness than features being "pleasing." She does not have that latter kind of beauty imo.

 

Her inner beauty radiates out and transcends this reality. And probably I'd find more appealing about her as I hung out with her. But she is not attractive from a base physical standpoint. Her spirit animates her and lends her the aura she has (and lots of people who have more "objectively" good-looking features lack that inner quality, or even have enough inner "ugliness" that it makes them look unattractive to me).

 

LOTS of men have the advantage of this phenomenon, and I would even argue that if Lizzy were a man, she would already be married with a child (as it is, she seems to be unpartnered, though if that's wrong, someone correct me.) That's not to say she couldn't find anyone, and I've also seen stories of equally "unattractive" women who had partners, and in one case I know of (Heather Rose, a late screenwriter who had cerebral palsy -- see the movie, "Dance Me to My Song"), her boyfriend was actually really objectively "hot." It's just a rarity all around.

 

I know I'm going to sound like a jerk... but when you have "bad qualities" outside, you create "good qualities" inside to even it out. The problem with someone who has an "Average look" would might be they have an "average personality". That's how sometimes I feel.

 

And PLEASE for the record! I'm tired of people on here thinking that I CONTINUE to be so dirty. I USED to do that, and if that.. probably wasn't to the extremes you guys are thinking. I sent a video of myself doing a rap, and then stripping down and humping. That's the type of "Extreme" I'd be. It was at a college party with friends. I NEVER do this to random strangers. So please.. let's not use those as my "excuses" anymore. I've calmed down DRASTICALLY over the YEARS.. especially since I've been to LA. So please stop that. Basically, when you ask me to stop that behavior.. . I've already have!!!!!

[Dougie_D]

Have you ever heard "too much analysis leads to paralysis" ?

 

No. but I really like it. I have a problem of "thinking too much". Even my bosses..even my other jobs... would tell me I make things too hard than it really should. It's a personality trait I guess.

[Fudgie]

I know I'm going to sound like a jerk... but when you have "bad qualities" outside, you create "good qualities" inside to even it out. The problem with someone who has an "Average look" would might be they have an "average personality". That's how sometimes I feel.

 

You know that you can change that, right? (talking about personality). You're not set in stone. What holds you back are your excuses. You don't like x y z, you won't go to the gym for some reason, etc. So as a result, you never really improve.

 

If you want to be mediocre in all respects, that's totally fine, but that means you're going to have to be with someone who is also mediocre.

[Dougie_D]

You know that you can change that, right? (talking about personality). You're not set in stone. What holds you back are your excuses. You don't like x y z, you won't go to the gym for some reason, etc. So as a result, you never really improve.

 

If you want to be mediocre in all respects, that's totally fine, but that means you're going to have to be with someone who is also mediocre.

 

Changing a personality type is not easy at all. And who says I don't go to the gym? I went from 185 last year to 172 right now. And I bought a yoga matt and learning yoga excersises, and I jog 5 miles every Sunday.

 

You guys act like I don't do anything. It takes time to apparently reach a "woman's standards".

 

If you know anyone who changed their "personality" then please.. I'm very curious to hear that story.

[Fudgie]

If you know anyone who changed their "personality" then please.. I'm very curious to hear that story.

 

Me. I'm not the same person as I was when I first started posting here in 2010. Go read my pasts threads. I'm foaming at the mouth in them. There are some things that have stayed the same, just like how there are parts of you (both good and bad) that will not change. But your outlook and how you react to life can change as you mature and gain new experiences. I've been exposed to a lot of things since 2010. My career goals have changed. Since that time, I've had a few relationships which have all affected me differently. I've learned a lot about life and I've struggled too. I've had awful health problems including major surgery and I've experienced emotional abuse and financial hardship.

 

And I am still changing. I go to therapy and I also read a lot of books.

 

In 2010, I was very angry and didn't have as much self-awareness about my harmful family dynamics. Yet at the same time, I had strained relationships with my family. I had a narrative that I was telling myself again and again in my head. I'd get angry and fly off the handle. I also was a bit more entitled. I had a different view of myself and what I wanted in the future. Yes, some things haven't changed: I still don't want children (tubes getting cut), I still have the same academic interests, I still enjoy working in healthcare, etc. But I am a different person than I was back then and I act differently. I attribute this to the experiences I've had and the work I've done (and continuing to do) on myself.

 

I never said it was easy. I said it can be done. I don't see you doing any real work on this front. You refuse to go to a therapist. You have a narrow set of interests and seem unwilling to step outside of them. You're stuck in the bar scene. How are you expected to change and mature if you're staying in the same box?

[Batya33]

I changed aspects of my personality starting about 19 years ago (when I was single but in a serious relationship) and continue to be a work in progress. The results: more quality friendships, more people who trust me, better self-esteem/self-confidence. I feel it's my obligation, as well, now as a wife and mother, to change those aspects of my personality that affect family peace, that might not provide the best example/role model for our young son, etc. I feel strongly that if I expect him to behave up to certain standards/values and to exhibit a certain level of self-control/impulse control then I have to do the same, so that I'm also walking the walk. My initial motivation was my then boyfriend pointing out, diplomatically, a personality flaw of mine, during a New Year's Eve dinner. What he said and how he said it really resonated and clicked with me.

 

Certainly there's no need to be a spouse or a parent to be motivated to change personality aspects that might not be working. I would think that wanting to meet someone for a romantic relationship, wanting a promotion at work, wanting to have more friends/better friendships are equally important and motivating.

[Moontiger]

This is the most appropriately named thread in the history of ENA!

 

As suspect Dougie completely ignored the RL story I posted. He likes playing the victim. I know do many men who got women who are "out of their league" including my two sisters, roommate from grad school and close friend.

 

Until you do some serious hard work with a therapist to grow up Dougie your problems will never improve. But I suspect you don't really want them to.

[Blue Spiral]

Blue Spiral, I haven't seen you make any suggestion to solve Dougie's problem of not getting laid, only that of you complaining about women. What constructive advice do you have for Dougie?

 

1. He needs to stop calling himself "Dougie".

 

2. He needs to hold off on trying to get women to accept him on a social/relationship level, and start trying to get them to accept him on a sexual one. Sex comes before everything else.

 

So it's just you. You don't only misrepresent women, you also don't represent men well.

 

I may be a bit of an outlier, but, on the whole, I think that I represent men very well. I absolutely believe that, deep down, most men are like me (if not quite as extreme). I've had many ENA men PM me and tell me that they agree with me, but are afraid to speak out. You're just used to interacting with men that want something from you, or from women in general, and are willing to censor themselves in order to get it.

[reinventmyself]

 

If you know anyone who changed their "personality" then please.. I'm very curious to hear that story.

 

Me too.

But I won't go into it now.

It's not the interesting but I can safely say I am a different person in so many ways then I was 15 years ago.

[Seraphim]

1. He needs to stop calling himself "Dougie".

 

2. He needs to hold off on trying to get women to accept him on a social/relationship level, and start trying to get them to accept him on a sexual one. Sex comes before everything else.

 

 

 

I may be a bit of an outlier, but, on the whole, I think that I represent men very well. I absolutely believe that, deep down, most men are like me (if not quite as extreme). I've had many ENA men PM me and tell me that they agree with me, but are afraid to speak out. You're just used to interacting with men that want something from you, or from women in general, and are willing to censor themselves in order to get it.

 

So men are all about treating women like a blow up doll?

[reinventmyself]

1. He needs to stop calling himself "Dougie".

 

2. He needs to hold off on trying to get women to accept him on a social/relationship level, and start trying to get them to accept him on a sexual one. Sex comes before everything else.

 

Dougie could probably easily find women who are just in it for sex and they are likely less discriminating.

From what he shares I don't think these are the type of women Dougie would be attracted to.

 

Dougie wants the total package, but the total package can command what she desires. I don't think she'd take to someone who has an aversion to kissing and objectifying women.

Why should she?

 

I suspect if Dougie got EXACTLY what he thinks he wants, which is in actuality more of a moving target than anything else, he wouldn't want it anyhow.

 

So if you look at it this way, this doesn't really have to do with the women the cross his path . .but more to do with what's going on with Dougie.

So coaching him `how to get laid' is just noise.

[Blue Spiral]

So men are all about treating women like a blow up doll?

 

Serious answer: that's my bad, I wasn't specific enough. In terms of beliefs, I think that most men are like me. They prioritize sex, they think that the modern dating game is rigged in favor of women, they think that certain double-standards are bad, etc. Now, in terms of my personality and wants/needs, I'm gloriously unique, of course. So, while most men aren't asocial like me--they want some sort of relationship--I believe that their overall views tend to line up with mine.

 

Sarcastic answer: read female-started ENA threads for a few days, and then you tell me.

[Seraphim]

Serious answer: that's my bad, I wasn't specific enough. In terms of beliefs, I think that most men are like me. They prioritize sex, they think that the modern dating game is rigged in favor of women, they think that certain double-standards are bad, etc. Now, in terms of my personality and wants/needs, I'm gloriously unique, of course. So, while most men aren't asocial like me--they want some sort of relationship--I believe that their overall views tend to line up with mine.

 

Sarcastic answer: read female-started ENA threads for a few days, and then you tell me.

 

So the answer to my question is, yes.

 

Phew... Glad I married my husband.