luciddreamer

Hi, you're probably right. Inexperience. To my knowledge he, at 31, has had 2 serious gf's. One was from high school 7 yrs til college, then the other was when he was in his master's program with a girl 7 years younger. I'd wager that relationship skills were not really built up to the adult degree. (not that I don't have my own issues w/communication, as illustrated). I honestly don't think he's had to have "the talk" too many times. And probably hasn't dated/slept with anyone in a while. To update, we talked for a couple hours Friday and we both admitted things got screwy and we both had a part in that. We didn't get to 'the talk' or my asking him to get tested to alleviate my anxiety... I was trying to just get us back to the friends/talking stage, but if things get back on track I will. I'm not sure if things will be irrevocably screwed up by this, but either way I'm glad we talked. It was really uncomfortable not having even spoken/him avoiding me in his wounded pride/whatever situation. thanks for everyone's advice.

Yes thanks for your thoughts. I am willing to take responsibility for my part and I know it's different b/c of his social anxiety/extreme rejection thing. So I feel like all the normal rules don't quite apply. I don't mind taking more than my share of the blame--clearly he was ignorant, not trying to hurt/impregnate me or anything!--if it helps things. Thing is he is dealing by being angry and blowing it up into rejection of everything he is/we are. He doesn't know about my past negative experience (mentioned earlier) w/o protection. Would that matter to him?

Yes, he does have the right to walk away if he thinks it's irretrievable. I very well may have lost him in 30 unintended seconds. What pains me is him sort of extrapolating my "rejection" and saying (in his letter) it meant i thought we werent that close, though he emphasized _he_ thought we were, cared for me, --> he's wasting his time since i don't feel it too ---> he should move on. I believe he knows how strongly i feel about him, how close we were, somewhere under that hurt.

thanks for the post. i'm not sure i could be as disciplined and open in communication as you given my shyness but i definitely wish i had spoken up about sex the second or so time we made out (we had only kissed about 4 times before this happened... nothing more than french kissing and no clothes removed). it would have seemed premature and defensive, but look where i am now.

that was my dumb attempt at humor. I have the utmost respect for him and accept my part in this. i tried to put him off but i agree it wasn't assertive enough. i never ever thought he would try to get inside me. i was thinking about it last night, part of my freak out is that i had unprotected sex w/my committed boyfriend and got a STI (temporary skin virus) which was very traumatic. i promised myself i'd never do that to anyone or let it happen to me again. i wish he would agree to move on and learn from this, as the other poster said. he did not return my call last night.

You're absolutely right. But his was off in (the last) 3 seconds. I was literally startled. No time to react except to do the ungraceful whatever-i-exclaimed. i've never seen such a trick pulled in all my 30 years. Really.

Hmm perhaps more like I made such a big mistake it could never be fixed? Hmm come to think of it he never acknowledged in the ltr that he had a part to play in the misunderstanding But, I can't understand how huge this is for a socially anxious person. He said it's the most embarrassing thing that's ever happened. Will this ego focus fade over the next couple of days or will he close down/shut down more?

That is a hard lesson I learned... based on the first three times i thought there would be a little fooling around but no way in the "ballpark" for sex. I'll never make the "unclear boundaries" mistake again. Thanks

Hi, I was going out with this guy, 31, smart, phd student, we got along great for 2 months. we hit it off on mutual values and interests. Very intellectually compatible. I was struck by how he didn't try to touch me or anything the first month.. just kisses on the cheek. Slowly we started getting more physical and the last five or so time some kissing and cuddling. We spent four nights together at his place or mine just holding each other mostly. It felt great. Last weekend, we were making out and it suddenly went from base #1 to trying to "steal home~"! What i mean is he was touching me down there and got my underwear off. I was so confused given what had come before and said some things like 'aren't we skipping some steps' but i don't think he understood. I was bewildered but it felt good so he could tell i was into it --even though i moved his hand off me a few times and said those things. He then takes off his underwear and tries to penetrate me... I freaked. My bad, i didn't handle it too smoothly. I was shocked. Not only had we gone too fast, had not talked about being intimate, about past partners, about where we were going... there was no contraception around to speak of either. I tried to cover the awkwardness by telling him these things but he was not hearing it. He felt really awkward and left. The thing is he used to have severe social anxiety (was on meds at one point) and i guess this was a huge rejection. We hadn't talked for a while and though he saID via text that it was ok...he just wanted more intimacy /conection but 'i guess i read wrong'... i could sense his distance. i dropped a letter off last night at his house telling him how much i value what was building with us and explaining i was sorry, reiterating that it wasn't a rejection so much as time and circumstance, that i wanted to just make sure we were both serious about pursuing this with each other because intimacy is a pretty big deal to me. he wrote me back and focused on being embarrassed and feeling crappy about that moment. then he said he doesn't have time for a relationship anyway since school pressures are major, that he has learned not to base happiness on a relationship, and 'it would be cool if we could just be friends.' i am absolutely crushed that it all came down to that when everything else was so perfect. I know he really liked me because the way he looked at me and the time we spent just getting to know each other, introducing me to his friends, etc. i think he thought my rejection of his sexual advance meant i did not feel close enough to him, which is not true, emotionally i did but not physically and not without talking about it/taking precautions. any advice on what to do, especially from those with social anxiety, would be appreciated! thanks for listening. PS yes, i read his letter on valentine's day.

i didn't know if it was the long distance (on and off for 4 yrs) or irreconcilable stuff like whether i could meet his emotional needs (questioned myself: was this irreconcilable or a matter of me saying, do whatever it takes because that is what unconditional love is) and him wanting to play the field and assuage his feelings of sexual inferiority by sleeping around... recently read 'how to be an adult in relationships' (d. richo) and i recommend it.... one of the checklists was me and my ex EXACTLY... the fear of abandonment versus the fear of being engulfed (me). a little knowledge would've gone a long way, but i wouldn't have read it if we hadn't broken up and the situation making me determined to work on myself..... Whatever we do, let's not say "I don't know why it happened.' You can't learn and go on if you don't look at yourself honestly and see the debris on the ground.

Hi, iwantherback, I'm just like you, though I'm a woman...my situation is that my ex and i were 'in limbo' for the last year after breaking up (we were together 3 years total) and 10 days after telling me he loved me and maybe we could work it out, he had hooked up with someone else on a layover. (I pieced this part together but am fairly sure). Then two weeks later he was sleeping with her and told me that we should go NC so i would stop haunting him and he could have a chance with her (though he still loved me, blech). How do i cope? i am compassionate and empathize that perhaps he is confused and in pain, and sincerely believes he is getting over me in a healthy way by doing this, regardless of the possibility that he's not dealing with the loss in the plain and solitary way needed. if he's happy, that's good. i have to do what i need to do and do what's best for me...which, as you said, is not to jump into some sexual fling with someone who has superficial compatibility or is able to comfort me. let it (these thoughts of your ex and whoever) come into your consciousness, then fully try to let them go realizing you can't change anything, and shouldn't. i plan to get over this loss in a way that does not bring baggage into the future.

Sounds like you are making progress, good for you. Fear is often behind the actions that hold us back. .. but everything happens as it should. Sometimes you just can't control what life gives you, and it will eat you alive to try to manipulate another person's feelings, actions, thoughts... check out 'everything arises, everything falls away: teachings on impermanence and the end of suffering', and zen and the art of falling in love. hang in there..

sometimes (often)? getting reassurance that you want to /are able to be their friend just eases their guilt that they're hurting you... we are all afraid to lose the familiar; it may not really be that she wants to keep up the talking and communication, but just wants to psychologically know she could if she wants to. things are probably really tumultuous right now for both of you, but hang in there and let it be if you can stand it...

Hi, I agree with the other posters.... I dated someone (we recently separated for good) who had low self esteem derived from childhood physical and emotional abuse and being sexually molested by a teenage girl. I never found out how deep these problems ran; he always needed more nurturing and wanted to 'be adored' by me. I will never know how much of our problems were from my being a bit 'cold' and naturally different personality-wise and unable to give this kind of attention freely, and how much was of his consuming need and dependency. But in the end I guess I have to accept that love can't heal your partner of these wounds... they have to examine them and decide that they don't want these issues to negatively influence all areas of their life. Open communication is best if such a relationship has a chance, and both partners wanting to make it work. (Because we all have some sort of emotional trauma or baggage from the past to some degree--)

Thanks. I'll try to remember some of those.

Hi, I'm sorry to hear about what happened to you. Ten years is a long time, but then again we're supposedly living til 100, so don't feel like you've thrown away your life. Did he make other attempts to deal with childhood issues or did they haunt him often in an unchecked way? Why were you two engaged almost 4 years... were there frequent problems that made you put it off til calmer times?

Good for you! Sounds like you are being strong. I dated someone who didn't know where he stood... it was agonizing. Hope something good comes your way soon.

i agree with lady bugg.. this is the essense of mindfulness, that we can't control others, only our mental reactions which cause our suffering. my ex was similarly confused and it dragged out for almost a year; you can lead a horse to water but if they're not thirsty you're SOL and better off meditating.

Everyone, This is an excerpt from an email I got from my ex described above after 3 wks NC (it's his response to my closing email after we talked and agreed that since he had lost hope and was seeing someone, it was time to break up for good). What psychological adjectives would you say he is displaying with his words... what kind of emotions? I know I'm biased, so I'm curious... thanks... I can't lie to you...I think about you a lot even though I am with someone and even though I feel the same about you as I did a month ago. I think about you intensely-what made us happy, what made us sad and most importantly what kept us apart. I was just hoping that things would eventually change between us. I was hoping that I would see more of the excitement in you that made me fall in love with you. I was hoping to be adored in the way that I wanted to adore you. There were a handful of times that we would stay up talking all night and I wish we could have done that so many more times but our lives outside of each other consumed us. [...] The reality is though that you never really changed you now that? (sic) From this I have grown so immensely. You don't even know the half of it. If I had to do this over and do it right I would do it in a heartbeat. Sometimes, I think I am over you and sometimes I turn over in bed hoping that you are there adoring me in the way that I longed for for many years. Like I said before though, you can't change the past. You were wrong, I did dream of forever for a long long time. [...] By the time the end came around and you persisted that things between us would change ... I did not see it happening. When did you sense that I lost hope? I always saw us together forever. I really did but I could not carry on anymore. I'm so sorry.(Then thanks me for helping shape who he is...)

Thanks everyone for your positive support and commentary... Let's all learn from loss and heartbreakng experiences. I heard it once that you don't really grow up until you've had your heart broken; well, I guess I became an adult at 28 7/12 years old. I feel much older and wiser... My ex says he's grown immensely from our experience and is reflecting a lot, but since he's moved right along, isn't that like trying to talk about the sun from down inside a well? He wrote me today after over 3 wks ( It was totally out of the blue; we agreed to NC to get over things) and it was basically a repeat of our last conversation and restating how we never changed and he lost the energy to at the end. Because I have accepted that whoever's right or wrong, it doesn't matter anymore, I think I was much less upset. Still, it brought back a reminder of how he used to want us together forever... For those who mentioned readings... try some of these. I liked them; I was raised protestant and believe in God, but at the same time the majority of timeless basic principles of Buddhism are actually secular in nature. wry, accessible writing style by american guy who became monk of thai forest order. any writings on four noble truths, i think, are helpful... 'zen and the art of falling in love' Brenda Shoshanna -- sometimes the 'exercises' aren't too concrete, but some of the basic principles and parallels to difficult relationship situations often faced rung very true. Any book by Thich Nhat Hanh. I just read "Everything Arises, Everything Falls Away" by Ajahn Chah and it was simple, relatively short, and prompted some good insight. This 'clearinghouse' has a number of topics: Best wishes to everyone.

I agree with DN; having known someone with OCD, it's important for her to seek help. Your reply was not malicious but it is clear that there are strong feelings about what happened and her friends, so it might stir up heated emotions for her and she clearly isn't in the mental state to withstand agitation. It seems you've been supportive but are justified in wanting space to heal, so I would be firm about it. No one can _make_ another feel anything; ultimately we can't go on feeling guilty for others' state of mind in cases like these. Good luck

hi, I personally feel most of baggage (and I've been known to carry the mental equivalent of four louis vuitton trunksfull) is from unresolved issues and pain we choose to nurse. If you know you did all you could, or alternatively that maybe it could have worked but for whatever reasons it didn't and the time/circumstances made it wrong, then you can let go in peace and life will carry you naturally to the next place you're meant to be. I think if you mindfully reflect on what you and your partner could have done better (without blaming or 'what if'...) and make a conscious effort the next time to be a more loving, responsive, etc. person, then your baggage issues will not be the 800 pound gorilla in your mental closet. Avoid the urge to compare and contrast, and let the new things and people in your life be as they are... leave negative voices behind... go into it assuming that you both have in you all that is necessary to make a solid and loving relationship. You can do it! hope that helps.

Hi all, I love this site -everyone on it is so insightful and I have always been helped by coming here. I just wanted to share my pretty complicated story of heartbreak and, hopefully, redemption for those hurting in case it is a comfort. And to share a few things I feel I've learned the hard way... I was with my now ex-boyfriend in some form for four years. We met on holiday (he was visiting but we are from the same hometown) and 'hooked up' in a passionate rush, then headed into a rather tortured, long letters/email/phone romance distance relationship. I was never sure if it was what I wanted, and hated the distance, but he became the strong one, always believing, and I did come to love him. We broke up once and he flew back home to convince me; after a month I agreed to try again. After a few more trips I moved to where he was going to grad school a year and a few months later, on the west coast. I was unemployed for a while and he supported me; then I found a job that was ok (bad bosses; a step down from my previous position). I started seeing a psychologist b/c of my work and relationship issues. I guess I took my stress out on him somehwat. We were unhappy quite often, but then again we really grew as a couple. We had the young urban politically progressive lifestyle and shared interests. Then we both decided to go back to school; him for a MD and me for a MA. So all of a sudden our time was consumed with applications and the uncertainty of being geographically together given we couldn't control the admissions decisions. I got into a school on the east coast and since it was a full ride I went out there. We stayed together, saw each other fairly often, but I guess i was drifting and broke up with him Jan 2005. So I at first figured he should be the one to change, as I blamed most of our long standing problems (his childhood abuse, acknowledged insecurity, self-esteem and nurturing issues) on these lingering effects. Then after about two months I guess I processed the fact that I had lost him and started to think about my part in it. I became really humbled and knew I had to change too, whether he took me back or not, because I had communication and intimacy issues, how to be open to someone else and respond to their needs regardless if you agree with it. I believe I changed. I asked him back in March and April, but he said he was unable to "go back" and that we had spent too much time not working -- despite his strong feelings for me. I cried at least once a day for almost six weeks. It was the most excruciating thing that's ever happened to me. In May I finangled my way to see him (lying to myself that it was for closure) and we had the most amazing week together-perfect. But he still decided to go to the school 3,000 miles from our home state. I really hoped he would come home so we could have a shot, b/c I wanted to return home after many years. He said he wouldn't promise me anything, wanted to wait and see (& see other people). In the summer I was a fellow at an institute with other students. I got into a passionate relationship with a mad genius type who fell for me --intelligent, fun, handsome, from excruciating hardship but had 'made it,' bi-polar, binge drinker. Wow! It was my 9 1/2 weeks. Somehow my heart didn't get wholly captured however for obvious reasons, so we parted in August. I was busy with school this past fall semester and didn't contact my ex much. But I discussed thanksgiving plans with him and he suggested one of us make a trip to see the other for the week. I volunteered to go, (and refused to let him pay since he was now the one making 'less',) and spent the week out there in chicago. We had a nice time-he was busy furnishing his new apt so we were at Ikea or home depot half the time... but I loved being with him. He said he loved me, he had made a mistake, could I see myself out there? and it was so natural to just take his hand in the street and snuggle at night. We slept together a couple times. I began to get attached agian. We parted knowing that we'd be back home together for the holidays for a few weeks. I had mixed feelings-happy but a bit pissed that he was getting everything he wanted and I might have to move to make it work again. Then after I got home last month things changed. We hung out one day and he seemed troubled, asked if we were still on our own (single) and I said yes, since he was so busy with school... (hoping he'd say otherwise)... it was a mess. Three days later he said he was interested in some girl from high school he reconnected with on a layover going home (a week after my trip) and "I kept haunting him," so we should just not talk for a while, etc. I wrote him a thoughtful email saying (as I told him @thxgivng) I wanted to be w/him forever and he just needed to tell me if he had a vision for us for the long term...I was willing to try to find a way through the three years. Well, anyway, he didn't, and in our last face to face conversation before Xmas he said he had been spending every day with this person, (intimately,) and had lost had the drive to try and make it work with me. He mentioned how she adored him, how it felt like how it felt at first with me, how our sex life had made him feel like something was wrong with him, even mentioned my penchant for leaving jars ajar(!). He is a very good person. but I even heard something like "I still love you... but I feel like I have to lose you to get you back." Eh??! Basically a mix of pretty silly excuses and real reasons known/unknown to me. I cried my eyes out, but realized it was really over. I had too much pride to beg under the circumstances. It was the same confused story heard many times on this board. She's a recent divorcee, in school 2000 mi from him, and, well, you can see he's got things to figure out (Him: "I know it won't work. I just want to make believe...") I just hope they give each other companionship and since he wants to not feel the void of what he's let go, that it's working for him. That's my story. I've been returning to a lot of budd hist readings for perspective. I recommend them to anyone who is healing after a breakup. The teachings are all about letting go of attachments and desires that twist our minds; that our suffering is only a mental reaction to latching on to things that are by nature impermanent. They're about how to let things rise and fall as they are intended. It really gives me peace, because I know I did all I could and now it's time to s tep away and stop fighting. Listening to what your original mind (wisdom) knows is the truth, and if the end has come, then letting things be as they are. Anyway, wanted to share one other insight. I had some warning signals of his lack of backbone/penchant for confusion AT THE BEGINNING and in between, but I ignored them or dealt with them wrongly. EG., we initially got together when he already had a girlfriend; he lied to her when he got back and had a hard time breaking it off. I too had periods of uncertainty and attraction to others, etc., though I didn't cheat. From this I have come to believe in karma (kamma in the Tibetan tradition), the effect and accumulation of past actions and conduct. I do think that we should be careful to not overlook signs of incompatibility or character weaknesses at the *beginning* of a new relationship despite our euphoria, since we can cause ourselves a lot of pain in the long run... like I did. I also think that by starting off like we did, it was unhealthy (sounds trite, but bad karma) and it ended just like it began, with him slithering from one thing to the next when he knew he had a backup. I suppose some people can become lotus blossoms in the mud and come from rebounds or sketchy circumstances, but I will try to be stronger and more mindful to improve the chances it will work for the long run. I'm not ready to jump in yet, but when I do I hope it will be a keeper this time. I've got lots of growing to do myself. Lastly, don't get caught up in Myspace or friendster ex-tracking/photo posting crap! One casual look at his comments from her made me swear off it permanently. I'm doing 100% better now by focusing on getting myself back in one mental piece. Many interesting people are out there! thanks for listening and any thoughts on eastern faith traditions in the process of healing would be welcome. SORRY so long... I'm a writer.

Thanks Sappho. I love your 'poems' (I majored in english) I am going to see him in about a week and hope to know for sure either way. I am not going to expect anything...will try my best to see the big picture and approach it with acceptance