Engaged but having doubts

Hi all,

Came here for some external/neutral perspective. I have been dating my love for 4+ years. We got engaged late last year but with the wedding planning beginning I am starting to have some reservations/hesitations and wanted to get input.

At this stage I believe we have a healthy relationship that has thrived without marriage.

However, the following signals have been keeping me up at night:

1) Questionable 'partner' + family experience of divorce

Fiancee doesnt want to work once she has kids. Time away from work may torpedo her career and leave us a one income household leaving me to shoulder the burden. When discussed she says she wants this because its how her mom experienced life. I barely earn enough to run a household. The dual income is necessary for us to 'save money'.

This also escalates the risk of divorce down the line and my the expected loss in divorce due to the likely huge salary discrepency (I make 2x her salary). Her sister is a recent divorcee and actually resolved it outside the court system because she made more than the husband.I remember my fiancee saying her sister was gonna 'go after him'. In this case, SHE would have to pay HIM alimony so she dropped it. If she wakes up one day years from now, what's there to save me from a worse fate than him?

2)Catholic raised children.

I am not religious (spiritual) but my fiancee was raised catholic and initialy claimed she was NOT practicing but must raise our future children catholic. I'm concerned this is a hint that things may change once we are married. Will this tension lead to divorce or resentment from children/her? I wonder if I need to seek someone who is not religious.

3) Emotional & Victimization

-history of seeing herself as the victim

-we have tried to work on this (discussions/self-help books)

-I've seen a modest improvement but fear it's a short term solution

-we fight more often than we used to and she resorts to heavy crying and using the tears to avoid discussing distressing topics (eg potential breakup/money). An example of this is her suggesting if 'we break up, i will be keeping the ring'. The ring represents a significant portion of my savings and she knows how long I have saved up for it. I'm afraid this could be a signal she will use tears, crying and blaming me to avoid any future argument where she stands to gain something. The fact that she is planning for breakup and protecting this kind of asset drove me to write this post.

4) Not an Independent Woman:

Granted this is due to the recent loss of her father and her mother being made a widow, and her sister being divorced and left single. She recently asked me 'how long after I pass should we start dating other people'. I don't believe in such things but she would have my blessing to pursue happiness. I see her as someone who DEPENDS on a man. She is NOT independent. Do I want my future children to be raised by a woman who cannot fight alone? This makes me wonder if her lack of confidence could hurt my future children's upbringing.

5) Viewing her own family as above me:

I fear I am not the priority when the surface skin is scratched away. I believe this to be true as she has already suggested she will not move across the world for me to support my career despite me earning 2x her salary currently. I must have a career in her town so she can be close to her mom and sister (she lost her father in an accident years ago). Can I really take this leap of faith called marriage where I risk significant alimony due to our income gap if she one day decides I am not 'good enough'.

6) Sometimes selfish disposition

Recently I was away from home for work (3 hour drive from her home; we currently live separately until marriage). I was forced to stay in the small town at my workplace residence on medication (fully furnished/nice home as I couldn't drive back in my physical state) with no assistance. I had to be courageous and go grocery shoppin and feed myself despite being seriously sick. She didn't come take care of me when I was sick despite being the weekend. She got ANGRY at me when I told my mother of this and suggested she didn't come because she did want to get sick herself and the 3+ hour commute was not safe/reasonable as she doesn't have many sick days at her job for the year and it is not an easy commute.

Keep in mind I am only noting the negative signals in this post. She is still my love because she is otherwise kind, uplifting, caring, motivating, and loyal.

Open to any feedback or thoughts you can provide.

Thank you wholeheartedly for reading a strangers thoughts!

The alimony problem can be solved with a prenuptial agreement.

The rest are issues that need to be resolved prior to getting married. She doesn't get to decide that she will be a stay at home mom and you'll support her financially. That needs to be a JOINT decision. She doesn't get to decide that she's keeping the ring if you break up, and the fact that was even a thought in her head is concerning. She also doesn't get to decide that your children will be raised Catholic. Again, that should be a JOINT decision.

I suppose everyone is entitled to certain things they won't negotiate on, however her attitude towards these huge issues is definitely not conducive to a great marriage/partnership. It seems she will tell you how it's going to be and you can either live with it, or deal with a whole bunch of crap from her if you dont. That attitude, for me, would be a dealbreaker. I would not spend my life with someone who's point of view was always "my way or the highway."

Have you suggested a prenup? Have you told her you are not comfortable being the solo bread winner?

I would suggest getting a lawyer and having her agree to wave any right to alimony (child support is it's own thing).

I would also explain that you won't be having children with her if she is going to give up her career. It's about safety. Your safety, her safety and your future child's safety. How are you supposed to save money for college if you are only scraping by? How are you supposed to give your child the opportunities you want to give them if you have no savings?

I think you need to sit down with her and explain these doubts. They aren't small things. These are the type of issues that will build resentment and slowly kill a relationship. A lot of people do pre-marriage counseling. That might help if you can't get her to talk without dramatics.

You need to be honest and discuss all this before it happens. It seems your are hoping to get down the aisle and suddenly she will be a career professional, not catholic and not close to her family. Why haven't you been to premarital counseling to sort out all these differences?

Fiancee doesnt want to work once she has kids. The dual income is necessary for us to 'save money'.

must raise our future children catholic.

we fight more often than we used to and she resorts to heavy crying and using the tears to avoid discussing distressing topics (eg potential breakup/money).

I must have a career in her town so she can be close to her mom and sister

She is still my love because she is otherwise kind, uplifting, caring, motivating, and loyal.

1) Questionable 'partner' + family experience of divorce

Fiancee doesnt want to work once she has kids.

Full-time Daycare in the US is close to 1100 to 1400 a month. If she barely makes that much, then what's the point? Plenty of moms go back to work once kids start a pre-school program or Kindergarten. Are you telling her that you will be 50-50 with taking care of the kids and all the housework, so she can go and work?

Catholic raised children.

Are you against raising them Catholic? I know couples where the husband in Jewish, the wife practices Hindu, and the children are Christian. Would she still marry you if you just wanted to raise them to be spiritual?

3) Emotional & Victimization

-history of seeing herself as the victim

Has she considered going to therapy? People only change if they want to; not because of tips they read in a book.

She is NOT independent.

Never heard of a successful married couple where the couple acted independently. You are partners, and should consult, confide, and work together. I think this is more tied into being financially independent. But you have to remember, you want someone to support your career, so why would you want to marry a showrunner?

5) Viewing her own family as above me:

she will not move across the world for me to support my career despite me earning 2x her salary currently.

Is this hypothetical, or do you have a job offer lined up? Honestly, she lost her dad, and all you think about is how she won't uproot her entire life for a hypothetical situation. I wouldn't move for my husband, and am happily married. And plus, you want to her have a job with kids, yet she is suppose to uproot herself and the kids YOUR job. I thinking you are grasping at hairs here.

6) Sometimes selfish disposition

I had to be courageous and go grocery shoppin and feed myself despite being seriously sick.

When men get the man flu - they blow it out of proportion. You were able to buy food and make food yourself; you didn't do take-out. I think you were just fine to take care of yourself.

I think you want some rich woman who dotes on you. She's not it. Either you love her warts and all, or you don't. If you are doubting, then postpone till you work out your issues with religion, savings, family, and future life goals.

So you give us all her negatives but none of her positives, and you want us to give you advice? I think you've skewed the conversation toward you breaking up with her and you're just looking for confirmation. So go ahead and break up with her.

I'll pick a few things out. In your fights about money, she's using passive-aggressive techniques against you with crying and threatening to break up. It's intended to control and manipulate you. However, at the same time, arguments are about control and you're trying to manipulate her away from her view that she shouldn't have to work when you have children. You have a difference of opinion and it doesn't make any sense to be continuing to argue over the same thing. You're trying to force your opinion on her and seemingly you won't give up. It's a clash of wills.

Another point is many of your points involve money. Money, money, money. You're worried about the money you spent on a ring (if you break up with her, she gets to keep the ring, by the way). Money is going to drive you into a divorce and cost you money. It's going to cost you money if she stays home to raise kids. The fact that you're thinking about divorcing her while you're planning a wedding is a bad sign.

Anyways, any of these points could be a deal-breaker in any other relationship. The fact you have six of them seems to weigh the scales towards breaking up. Perhaps you should look for a non-religious, career-minded, independent woman who makes as much money as you do, comes from a stable family, but is willing to move around the world with you and take care of you when you're sick. She'll be the perfect woman for you.

Speaking objectively, this is who she is, and thankfully she seems to have laid all the cards out on the table, and those are some mighty big differences in values you two seem to have. At the very least, you two should be sitting down with a premarital counselor (this is advised even for people with absolutely no discernible differences in value). My suspicion is you two simply aren't made to be life partners when factoring in financial and family dynamics.

Also, you can put anything you want in a prenup, but that doesn't mean it's legally enforceable. If a woman (or I suppose man, for that matter) would qualify for alimony based on legal criteria, it's almost always going to be rewarded anyway. Something to consider, but also something you can refer to an attorney about.

Subjectively, so long as we're talking about kids not yet of school age, I think you owe it to your hypothetical future kids to be more open about an at-home parental caregiver. There's a whole lot of science behind the benefits of it-- assuming you can afford it, even if it means a minor ding to your luxuries. Now if she means once she's had kids, she's done working, that's an entirely different situation I probably couldn't get behind.

Beyond that, I'd definitely sympathize more with you, or at least your account. Still, you both are who you are. You should be going into this marriage confident in who your fiancee is right now. If you can't, well...

Well I have to agree with some of the above poster that some of your concerns are kind of contradictory, some easily addressed and some require discussion.

The whole I want her to be a mom, raise my kids and have her own career and support my career and be able to uproot at will and move across the world - do you see how absolutely unrealistic that is? When you have kids, at least one parent will need to take a backseat to raise them, especially while they are very young. Hopefully they'll be healthy, but if they get sick often and easily, one of you will have to stay home. So even if she can maintain a job, cut her actual income capacity in half due to kids. Putting kids in daycare.....as another poster wisely pointed out is incredibly expensive and so is a toss up in terms of how much she is earning whether that's a net income or net loss for you as a couple. I think you need to open your eyes and do some realistic math on this. Consider also that plenty of people who don't earn all that much have savings. It's not always an issue of income but lifestyle and expenditures.

Regarding your fears about alimony - get a prenup.

Regarding the engagement ring, if you break up with her, she gets to keep the ring. That's kind of the point of the engagement ring. However, if she dumps you, then she has to return the ring.

Regarding raising the children Catholic - what does that mean if she isn't exactly practicing herself? I think you need to have a more open minded, seeking to understand what that entails kind of a conversation and avoid getting adversarial about it. For some it's limited to baptism and communion, for others it's I want them to go to Catholic school, etc. You need more information on what this means in her mind.

Regarding the getting sick thing while out of town...I mean come on. You are a grown man not a child and she isn't your mother, yet you certainly acted like a child and even went whining to your mom about it. Yikes. Dude you are supposed to be able to take care of yourself and if you are contemplating marriage, then take care of self and family too. Time to grow up OP.

You are talking core values. My values match up with yours well, OP, and I'm a woman .. we are out there.

Personally I wouldn't marry a man who didn't align with me on such things. You have to decide for yourself.

First off thank you all so much for taking the time to respond! I really appreciate your perspectives.

The alimony problem can be solved with a prenuptial agreement.

 

The rest are issues that need to be resolved prior to getting married. She doesn't get to decide that she will be a stay at home mom and you'll support her financially. That needs to be a JOINT decision. She doesn't get to decide that she's keeping the ring if you break up, and the fact that was even a thought in her head is concerning. She also doesn't get to decide that your children will be raised Catholic. Again, that should be a JOINT decision.

 

I suppose everyone is entitled to certain things they won't negotiate on, however her attitude towards these huge issues is definitely not conducive to a great marriage/partnership. It seems she will tell you how it's going to be and you can either live with it, or deal with a whole bunch of crap from her if you dont. That attitude, for me, would be a dealbreaker. I would not spend my life with someone who's point of view was always "my way or the highway."

These are valid points. After much consideration I am more concerned with the thought process behind the ring rather than the monetary loss itself at this point. I think the next step will be seeking marriage counselling. Thank you so much!

Have you suggested a prenup? Have you told her you are not comfortable being the solo bread winner?

 

I would suggest getting a lawyer and having her agree to wave any right to alimony (child support is it's own thing).

 

I would also explain that you won't be having children with her if she is going to give up her career. It's about safety. Your safety, her safety and your future child's safety. How are you supposed to save money for college if you are only scraping by? How are you supposed to give your child the opportunities you want to give them if you have no savings?

 

I think you need to sit down with her and explain these doubts. They aren't small things. These are the type of issues that will build resentment and slowly kill a relationship. A lot of people do pre-marriage counseling. That might help if you can't get her to talk without dramatics.

I have suggested I was uncomfortable with being the sole-breadwinner recently and it created an argument where she suggested I had implied I was okay with this by being 'ambitious' and taking care of her up till now informally (ie rarely asking her to pay for things and not keepin tally of expenses). Perhaps a pre-nup would help put those concerns to bed but I think you nailed it with your comment. Marriage counselling needs to be our next step.

You need to be honest and discuss all this before it happens. It seems your are hoping to get down the aisle and suddenly she will be a career professional, not catholic and not close to her family. Why haven't you been to premarital counseling to sort out all these differences?

At this stage these are just nagging doubts. I actually welcome the catholic faith and have no biases against it. I just don't want to be a 'religious household' or have children that identify as such. It will need to be discussed further via formal counseling. Thank you!

Full-time Daycare in the US is close to 1100 to 1400 a month. If she barely makes that much, then what's the point? Plenty of moms go back to work once kids start a pre-school program or Kindergarten. Are you telling her that you will be 50-50 with taking care of the kids and all the housework, so she can go and work?

 

Are you against raising them Catholic? I know couples where the husband in Jewish, the wife practices Hindu, and the children are Christian. Would she still marry you if you just wanted to raise them to be spiritual?

 

Has she considered going to therapy? People only change if they want to; not because of tips they read in a book.

 

Never heard of a successful married couple where the couple acted independently. You are partners, and should consult, confide, and work together. I think this is more tied into being financially independent. But you have to remember, you want someone to support your career, so why would you want to marry a showrunner?

 

Is this hypothetical, or do you have a job offer lined up? Honestly, she lost her dad, and all you think about is how she won't uproot her entire life for a hypothetical situation. I wouldn't move for my husband, and am happily married. And plus, you want to her have a job with kids, yet she is suppose to uproot herself and the kids YOUR job. I thinking you are grasping at hairs here.

 

When men get the man flu - they blow it out of proportion. You were able to buy food and make food yourself; you didn't do take-out. I think you were just fine to take care of yourself.

 

I think you want some rich woman who dotes on you. She's not it. Either you love her warts and all, or you don't. If you are doubting, then postpone till you work out your issues with religion, savings, family, and future life goals.

She makes more than daycare costs (she has a college degree and good work experience). I absolutely believe in assisting with housework and the kids even with a demanding job. This is something I have already promised her. I just fear if she's home full-time doing this, the financial burden + physical burden of me still needing to help could be too much (I would STILL want to contribute to the household duties whether she is home or working)

Regardin the job offer, yes I did have an opportunity a year ago which ignited that comment from her perspective. I decided to forgo it due to my commitment to her.

Regarding the sickness, it was a small town (pizza/chinese delivery only) and I needed soup/healthy stuff. I had a fever and was barely able to walk so I bought soup cans and drove carefully while sweating profusely. Not quite sure what the man-flu comment means but I appreciate your perspective and comments.

Speaking objectively, this is who she is, and thankfully she seems to have laid all the cards out on the table, and those are some mighty big differences in values you two seem to have. At the very least, you two should be sitting down with a premarital counselor (this is advised even for people with absolutely no discernible differences in value). My suspicion is you two simply aren't made to be life partners when factoring in financial and family dynamics.

 

Also, you can put anything you want in a prenup, but that doesn't mean it's legally enforceable. If a woman (or I suppose man, for that matter) would qualify for alimony based on legal criteria, it's almost always going to be rewarded anyway. Something to consider, but also something you can refer to an attorney about.

 

Subjectively, so long as we're talking about kids not yet of school age, I think you owe it to your hypothetical future kids to be more open about an at-home parental caregiver. There's a whole lot of science behind the benefits of it-- assuming you can afford it, even if it means a minor ding to your luxuries. Now if she means once she's had kids, she's done working, that's an entirely different situation I probably couldn't get behind.

 

Beyond that, I'd definitely sympathize more with you, or at least your account. Still, you both are who you are. You should be going into this marriage confident in who your fiancee is right now. If you can't, well...

I think this is the biggest item: potential difference in values.

You have all convinced me thsi needs to be the next step (pre-marital counseling). I suspect financial and family dynamics will need to be discussed with a 3rd party.

Also I agree on the prenup comment, which is why I'm not relying on that as a silver bullet.

I think I am supportive on the stay-at-home caregiver point as long as household income/wealth is flush. Right now it is not, and is not likely to be in the short term. I would be happy to give up simple luxuries but not if it means threatening retirement savings/401k contributions. The challenge is having a gap (of 3-4years from birth to kindergarden) can be a significant career challenge for msot people (myself included); I think most people would find re-entering the workforce difficult after a 3-4year absence.

Thank you for your kind assessment.

Just as an aside, most courts actually consider an engagement ring to be a conditional gift, contingent on the promise to wed. If that condition is broken, regardless of who does the dumping, the ring gets returned. For jurisdictions that don't consider it a conditional gift, it likewise isn't going to matter who does the dumping, and the woman can keep it if she so chooses. Really, if the woman's decent, and assuming isn't owed some big debt by the man that the ring could then serve as collateral or a substitute for, she'll be inclined to return the ring without anyone having to even refer to the letter of the law about it.

Just as an aside, most courts actually consider an engagement ring to be a conditional gift, contingent on the promise to wed. If that condition is broken, regardless of who does the dumping, the ring gets returned. For jurisdictions that don't consider it a conditional gift, it likewise isn't going to matter who does the dumping, and the woman can keep it if she so chooses. Really, if the woman's decent, and assuming isn't owed some big debt by the man that the ring could then serve as collateral or a substitute for, she'll return the ring without anyone having to even refer to the letter of the law about it.

Yeah... her saying she was going to keep the ring if they break up... well it's scary and strange. I wouldn't want a partner who thought that way. Like she is already planning to screw the OP over if they break up. That is a scary person to legally bind yourself too.

Perhaps you should look for a non-religious, career-minded, independent woman who makes as much money as you do, comes from a stable family, but is willing to move around the world with you and take care of you when you're sick. She'll be the perfect woman for you.

Hahahhaha.

Honestly, pre-marital counseling that the church provides will address some of these talking points. ANd might give her a chance to answer for herself.

Its a reasonable goal to want to stay home with the kids when they are very young -- we benefited very much by mom being home until we were all in school full time, and after that, she worked school hours or on saturday for awhile until we were a little bigger.

As far as "moving across the world for me" -- seriously - does the job you have *reasonably* call for you to move to Timbucktu? Be honest about this. If you are in the military or work for a company based in Japan that frequently calls for you to travel there, i can understand this being concern. But if you are a loan officer at a bank, a manager at a grocery store, etc, I don't see this is being anything near a concern. Her mom is a new widow of course RIGHT NOW she is not going to want to move any farther than that would allow her to be able to get to mom within an hour if something happened. And if you did move for work when you had kids, you would wait until there was a proper time -- after the school year or semester to move the kids. Or if one had special needs, you would not move unless you could find a proper program for your child.

And you are worried that you can't support kids? In a couple of years you will be making more money through raises over time. My dad worked two jobs in the beginning. I was not exactly planned and mom had a very difficult pregnancy and delivery. She could *not* work at that time. So he worked two jobs to make ends meet. Things got better because he got one *better* job and was able to leave the two jobs he initially had. My mom's "job" was to have a healthy delivery, stay home and take care of a baby, etc. We also only had one car. She walked to the grocery store or would borrow grandma's car. She cooked, made the house nice to come home to, etc. They didn't live in an expensive house or anything.

4) Not an Independent Woman:

Granted this is due to the recent loss of her father and her mother being made a widow, and her sister being divorced and left single. She recently asked me 'how long after I pass should we start dating other people'. I don't believe in such things but she would have my blessing to pursue happiness. I see her as someone who DEPENDS on a man. She is NOT independent. Do I want my future children to be raised by a woman who cannot fight alone? This makes me wonder if her lack of confidence could hurt my future children's upbringing.

For goodness sake, her dad just died. Cut her some slack. "if I died, would you date again?" may be a random question because she is wrestling with the situation with her mom. Its not some sort of pact. And how does her talking about if one spouse dies first means that she will just neglect your kids? It makes no sense. Most women i know are very fierce in protecting their kids - even if they were predicted to be a so-so mother before they had kids.

As far as crying, I would cry too if my guy threatened to breakup with me or even MENTIONED "if we break up, i get the ring back". give her a break.

As far as religion, its not uncommon for people to return to their faith when they have kids -- it doesn't mean you have to be devout but if she wants to have the kids baptized and go to Sunday School - is that really a dealbreaker to you?

Honestly, i think you need to do some soul searching because you keep bringing up what alimony will be. Don't go into marriage, unless you are an 85 year old billionaire being chased by a 21 year old blonde, thinking about alimony. Do you just not want to be married? Are you perfect ?

If you don't want to get married, don't get married, but i think a couple of these at least are solveable or talkable.

Yeah... her saying she was going to keep the ring if they break up... well it's scary and strange. I wouldn't want a partner who thought that way. Like she is already planning to screw the OP over if they break up. That is a scary person to legally bind yourself too.

Well -- it depends on the context. Did he threaten to break up with her?

Yeah... her saying she was going to keep the ring if they break up... well it's scary and strange. I wouldn't want a partner who thought that way. Like she is already planning to screw the OP over if they break up. That is a scary person to legally bind yourself too.

My buddy got to keep the ring after her fiancee fled the country, while she was stuck cancelling two weeks before the wedding all the non-refundable deposits and items for the wedding.

So yeah, if the guy just bails, she can legally keep the ring.

Well -- it depends on the context. Did he threaten to break up with her?

Even then... "I'm going to keep this money you saved up for something that isn't going to happen" is yucky, yucky to the point that I wouldn't be interested in going forward with that person.

Also from what the OP wrote it sounds like she is the one threatening to break up in order to avoid tough topics.

My buddy got to keep the ring after her fiancee fled the country, while she was stuck cancelling two weeks before the wedding all the non-refundable deposits and items for the wedding.

 

So yeah, if the guy just bails, she can legally keep the ring.

That's a completely different situation. And maybe she couldn't legally keep the ring it depends on the laws in that state or country. But clearly she can keep it if the dude just disappears. No one is asking for it back.

Using it as a threat? That's NOT the same thing.

If you don't want to get married, don't get married.

But the whole "she won't move around the world on a moment's notice" reason is BS-y

If you are having doubts NOW, then you should not get married. Period. No need to harp what others have said because everyone has brought some valuable points to the table. But from reading your post, you don’t sound ready to be a husband.

When in doubt, DON'T. Yes, it is as simple as that.

I dunno. If you're talking about 'breakup and keeping the ring' I don't think that's a good sign. You need to talk to her about these issues and do some pre-marital counseling. These are serious issues.

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Dude, this is GOD talking to you. Take my advice. Do not do it. If you do it, it is a mistake - guaranteed.

What are your ages?

It sounds like the reason you are picking everything apart is that you really don't want to marry now in general or marry her in particular and you would rather pursue your dreams and your career and be free to do so. You are on two completely different wavelengths. Neither of you is wrong, you are just not interested in the lifestyle she wants . When you admit this to yourself the fog and doubts and concerns will all be lifted.