stopit

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Congrats to both of you!!!

Well, it's a bit difficult to talk to someone who won't look you in the eye! He probably wanted to talk to you in the restaurant, if he came up close enough to make his presense obvious. As for the phone thing, unless he said "I'll call you at this specific time" and he didn't call you at that specific time (or within a couple of days), I think waiting a week is too short. I mean, stuff could have come up for him. You never know. If you do run into him again, I wouldn't mention the not kissing thing - since you had just met (assuming you didn't know him beforehand?), maybe he wanted to take things slow, tease you, build the attraction, not make his move in public, etc. Mentioning the kissing thing just puts conflict on the table, and after meeting him for the second time only? If you throw it out there in a joking way, it might be okay, but you'd have to be very laxed and confident about it, or else, it would probably be highly awkward for both of you. It's best to just move on from the what ifs. If it's any consolation, I probably would have acted the same way in the restaurant - self defense, no? Though next time you find yourself in this exact situation, you'll know just what to do!

People who are sloppy eaters really bother me. I know someone who when eating a dessert - say pudding - gets a little bitty spoonful of it and brings it to her mouth, and touches it lightly with her tongue. Then she puts the spoon back down. She'll talk some, and then bring the spoon back up for another tongue touch. Literally, she'll treat it like a lollipop. She'll spend half an hour if not longer on a small-sized portion of pudding. Sometimes she'll drive the whole spoon in her mouth and then pull it out, and there'll be the exact same amount of pudding on the spoon, but it'll have little bubbles of spit on it. It drives me crazy...!!! I can't imagine a guy doing this, but if my date were to do this, I would need a stress ball during meals.

Is Pepsi better? Or is that just a preference in taste?

Personally, I would think it weird and a bit cliche if a guy asked me. Whether he asked me just generally before or immediately before whether he could kiss me, I honestly wouldn't know what to say ("Oh yes, may you please do?"). I think there are a lot of subtler ways to "ask permission" - just leaning in and seeing how the person responds before going for the plunge, for one. But I'm curious as to how many people have actually asked the person they were with whether it was okay to kiss them, and what their experiences were like. So yes, this is a share-your-experience thread!

I've been raised by my mother, with an emotionally absent father somewhere in my life picture. I've very awkward and terribly shy. I'd say reasons 1, 2 and 3 apply (I'm the youngest), yet there are a number of other reasons out there: 4) School environment (as other posters have said). 5) Exposure to the real world. My parents weren't really protective of me. But due to safety and language barriers (expat), I haven't had much interaction with the community outside my school/home. I remember at 10 or so when I was in the States ordering a sandwhich at Subway, I was nervous. Nervous! Pretty pathetic. I still feel iffy around strangers just because I haven't had much exposure to the real world (I'm 17 now). 6) Natural vs. technological childhood environment. I can't really speak for the natural side (by this I mean the person as a child went hiking on weekends, played in the field and backyard a lot, had a pet, lived outdoors more than indoors, engaged in outdoor physical activities such as soccer and swimming). I was raised in the technological side, meaning I was raised mostly by TV and Nintendo. I was a couch potato, rarely exposed to open daylight, lol. I played on my game console for hours - really bad for my development, it turns out. So when I should have been developing social skills (and motor skills), I was glued to the TV, either watching nonsense cartoons or playing unlimited hours of video games. I remember when I was five, I preferred playing with my Nintendo than playing with friends. There was one time when my neighbor even came physically into my house, and I was still playing away at the games. Wish someone would have stopped me... 7. 8. 9... There are a ton of reasons. You can't simplify it down to a main three or four. Everyone's situation is different. You might as well look at whether the person was breastmilked or given formula as a baby. Domestic violence may factor in. Genetics. Culture. Single-sex schooling vs. coed. Personality traits (which are affected by genetics and environment). Etc. I'd say it wasn't a conscious decision, but rather the effect of being admonished. I used to be chatty when I was really young (before middle school). Reason being I was uninhibited. I had little to no social awareness (I hit developmental milestones very late in life). And then I got picked on by my peers and became painfully self-aware. Young children (as in toddlers) talk without inhibition, without awareness of the world (completely natural) and as they grow up, they learn one way or another the concept of "self" and the concept of "others." I'd say the way we go about learning this has an impact on our perception of self later on, and hence shyness.

Ah yes, embarrassment is a common result of shyness. I've had my share of moments... Someone was asking me a question as the person I liked was walking passed us. I was so focused on where he was walking, that I didn't listen to the person I was talking to. I had to ask that person to repeat his question three times before it finally registered in my brain. It would all be fine if only the person I liked didn't jump into the conversation subsequently (and thereforeeee, must have overheard me asking "What?" like a retard so many times - and it was quiet, so background noise wouldn't have exculpated my cluelessness). In terms of advice, it's hard. No doubt about that. Although this probably isn't consoling, it does get better with time and experience. Work on your confidence by building your conversational skills. When caught by surprise, build a "smile instinct" - so when you see her and can't think of anything to say, just smile casually rather than stand there rigidly.

I'm kind of surprised by the number of people who are all for kissing on the first date. It would only work for me if the connection were there, and even then, I'd prefer to wait it out. I find a little kiss on the cheek more appropriate - but then again, it's all personal preferences.

OP is female. lol - great difference between females and males at 15. This might be part of the problem. I don't really know what to say - I felt the same way at 13, 15 and now a couple years later, more or less the same way. Time doesn't really cure the helpless romantic. I'm a loner too, out of extreme shyness. I know I approach people the wrong way - don't approach them at all! It's difficult to say if your problem is the approach (maybe try smiling more, using open body language (i.e. straight back, shoulders not hunched over, head up, arms not crossed), asking more questions rather than talking monologues, if you aren't already doing these things). But given that this is high school, I'm more inclined to assume it's the people you're approaching than the approach itself. High schoolers can be so judgmental, so unaccepting, etc. etc. You're not alone in this! In any case, I think before anything, self satisfaction should come first. I've found in my own case I've wanted to have someone special to share my life with because I had no one to share my life with. Compensation is the word, I believe. What could be more validating than having someone love you? The problem is all the idealization that comes with waiting and anticipation - love becomes something it honestly is not. At least this is true in my situation - it's just too easy to con yourself into believing that it's full of grandeur and fulfillment because to think so would be unrealistic. The guy you want to be with might not end up being your knight in shining armor (not that you're necessarily expecting this, but a lot of your perceptions of love are probably based on movies and the media; I'm just trying to say, it doesn't necessarily work that way). Anyhow, besides going out there and meeting people, there isn't much to do besides wait. It really helps to cut down on the idealization though; don't approach guys with the intention of squeezing out a date, but of just having a nice conversation. Let things happen on their own accord. Don't pressure anything, and more importantly, don't pressure yourself.

How did it work out for you? My main worry is that is been escalating over the years. There was no yelling up until I was 8. When it started, it wasn't even yelling; just heavy arguing. And then it became more frequent over the years and louder and angrier. More violent, though not physical. The drinking's gotten heavier at the same time. That's the beauty of tolerance, isn't it? I suppose everything will work out, but what if my presense is what stops him from going further? And then if I leave, how do I know what's going on back home? No one talks about it. It's amazing how things can be so horrible at night, and then the next day it's all back to normal. But I guess that's part of the problem: no liability.

I'll be heading off to college in a few months. This has been the thought that held me together the past 6 years - "There's always the future," and it seems the future has arrived. My situation: my father yells at my mom a lot. I don't really want to go into details, but it's about the most ludicrous things. I can't tell how much of it is the drinking, how much of it is his abusive nature; I can make a fair argument either way. He's been physical only once (that I know of); whereas he regularly has a bottle of wine and several beers, he had downed a bottle of vodka that night. I was there, 13 and everything. I haven't seen anything physical since, but needless to say, the verbal/emotionless abuse persists. He threatened to kill once - which as I type this sounds absolutely ridiculous (like "Call the police" type of ridiculous), but I know well enough it's just an empty threat. He says a bunch of ridiculous things, all empty, and that was just one of them. So again, can't tell how much of it is the booze (the senility?), I don't know. It seems more to be a pathetic attempt at provocation, a low attempt to reinforce authority/power. I know it's not my job to protect my mom, but as the youngest, I don't know what to do come summer. I'm pissed, scared, worried, concerned. As much as I'd rather be out of the house when he starts, I don't know, I feel like I need to be there, need to protect, even if I'm just listening. I can't do much, but I can do something if anything happens. But what can I do when I'm miles away?

Are you serious? When it comes to self esteem, we are not enslaved to the opinions of others. And thanks for the judgment.... I too tend to get a bit excited with hyperboles and self-deprecating humor, but obviously that was all lost. But anyhow, as several other posters have said, this thread is largely useless seeing as the OP has seemingly entirely missed the point of discussion and has apparently done the very thing listed in the quote above (quite ironically) and forgotten the world view, and thought that this thread is drawn out based entirely on his own situation. It would seem he has missed the fact that this is a general thread that most people can relate to and thus want to assume a position in. I'll agree with the OP that shy people have to work harder. But that's all shy people (apparently the OP underestimates women and assumes women are like flies attracted to light when it comes to looks - maybe that's his real issue?). But just because there's a challenge, doesn't mean shy people have to be our own worst enemy. Maybe the OP can't be helped, but there are other people reading this forum, and they have no reason to be subject to the same imprisoning philosophy that the OP has decidedly locked himself in. There is hope (and not less hope, the same amount) for shy people. It takes some work, but the payoff it well worth it!

Is this really a healthy prospect for your self esteem? Shouldn't you practice self-sufficiency? Doesn't it matter whether you are content with yourself, before you go embracing the opinions of others? That's why I think posts like this shouldn't be a "Here's my pic: tell me if I'm ugly or not" thread but a "I'm feeling unattractive right now, need some motivation" thread. Because ugliness is entirely subjective. There are days I look in the mirror and cringe, but an hour a week I'll look and think that I look acceptable. It's not like I physically reach a plateau or something once a week; it's all mental. What matters is how you feel about yourself, not how Miss Right feels. From my own experience, I think about myself and guys I'm interested in, and I cower away. I think I'm not good enough, and in some act of confused heroism save my crush from the horrors of me by avoiding him altogether. A lot of it is fear of rejection, but I also just automatically think that I'm too ugly, too stupid, too shallow, too insensitive, too needy, too lame, too boring... (I'll spare you the rest of the list: it would be like printing out all the figures in pi...) so I can't possibly approach him, lest I pester him. So if I met Mr. Right (although I'm not looking for that right now - just looking for anyone who'll tolerate me), I know I would run in the opposite direction. And if he thought I was alright looking, I would probably run even faster because that's a rare opinion of me, so I wouldn't want to screw it up by opening my mouth. It would just make me even more shy, even more awkward, and perhaps a bit suspicious (does he really mean it? is he just saying that?). Maybe you have more faith in yourself than I do in myself. I didn't read all the posts, so I don't know whether this problem is limited to looks, or whether you have a general self esteem issue about all aspects of your personality as well. But either way, how are you supposed to be attractive to someone else if you don't feel attractive to yourself? How do you not work yourself into a self-defeating mentality? I would honestly say that I'm not ready to be in a relationship before I'm comfortable with myself, just because I have to feel that I'm worth it before I can open up to someone. I mean sure, I would be flattered if someone found me pretty and intelligent, and sure it would help my confidence, but it's no panacea. It's like dipping an apple with a rotten core in chocolate, and trying to tell yourself, "Everything's okay." Not to liken anyone to a rotten apple, but just to say that the wounds of a low self esteem (coming from someone who has so adamantly insisted that he is ugly even though he is clearly not) go much deeper than you might believe. You see, you have no idea how I look. And if I were to post my picture and you were to see for yourself, you would probably be relieved if I looked alright because then you wouldn't have to lie in your reply. But what if I was the ugliest person in the world? What would you tell me? And what if I were the prettiest person in the world? I bet you the responses would be almost identical, although in the case that I were pretty, the responses would be more enthusiastic (all periods would be replaced with exclamation marks). But what does it matter... After all this positive feedback, you still feel ugly. And there were some females responses in there (this is a male thread, hence the male responses). The conviction that you have that you are ugly is obviously rooted deeply. Do you honestly think a compliment from one person is going to change a negative self-image that has lasted this long? Maybe I'm just projecting all my experiences/issues into this post, and maybe you really have got it all worked out: all you need is a ballot from Miss Right before you can be happy with yourself. But I think this statement is a bit simplistic, and I think you may be omitting some important variables in this assessment. You need to work on YOU, becoming happy with your own image. Looks are irrelevant in a perfect world, and although this world has its imperfections, there are many people out there who will value you for what's inside. There is hope, because attraction isn't limited to looks, especially after the small talk phase. It's about how you carry yourself, body language and all that, and all that comes from how you feel about yourself.

To those of you who said things were exactly the same, what would you identify as the cause of that? And to those who changed, why were things different? And what about the conformity/individuality issue?

I wouldn't suggest asking him out just yet - it doesn't seem like you are ready, and it doesn't seem like your connection with him would warrant such strong action. Based on your post, it doesn't seem like you talk much to each other, so it would be sort of random if you did; and if he said yes, imagine how awkward it would be if he doesn't even laugh or look you in the eyes! So just start talking to him. If the awkwardness goes away, great! But if it lasts, you should do what Bluedude said and just casually ask him why he acts differently around you than he does around everyone else. You could tease him about it or something, just don't make it too serious or uncomfortable. I'm kind of in the same situation, so I really hope this works out for you in the end! I think first you need to make sure you feel comfortable around him and that there's chemistry (which, if he's shy, will take some time to develop).

I was hoping that the individuality vs. conformity issue would make things easier in college. I've always been painfully shy, I'll admit, but I've never really found anyone with the same interests as me. I imagine (hope?) that it'll be easier to find people with like backgrounds and passions in college, especially if I join clubs and by take specialized electives, and so forth. Realistically, I don't expect my shyness to go away, and I don't expect the transition to be easy in the short run. But I do hope that after a few months into the school year, I'll find my niche and not be outcast for a change.

From your experience, do people who are socially awkward in high school get "better" in college? Particularly in the dating arena? Any input would be much appreciated!

I'm sorry if you felt I was "attacking her." I personally tried to be honest and fair in my post. Out of curiosity, what exactly about my post "attacked?" Setting aside all the semantics, the point I originally made in my post is that the OP has to respect the choice of the guy, and even though she wants to tell him her feelings, it doesn't change the fact that he's already committed. I think it would be more painful to dwell on the situation and think of ways to "remedy" it; it's just easier to move on, however difficult that may be.

I see your point, but beyond the context of this situation, isn't it still a value judgment to say that someone does not deserve to be dated because s/he has certain qualities? We all have flaws, both body and personality wise, but those flaws shouldn't make us unworthy of a relationship. Ultimately, it's all a matter of relativity. You can have someone who is nice, but compared to someone ultra nice, the original person might seem mean. Stupid example, but my point is that you can't have someone "good" enough or "better" because relativity doesn't matter in relationships. What matters is the connection between two people, right?

Argh! This makes me cringe... What do you mean by "better?" (rhetorical question) You can't narrow someone's reasons to being in a relationship to looks, money or status (generally speaking). There isn't a formula for it. It's about compatability. There's something about her that he likes. Unless he has expressed disinterest in her in unmistakable terms and said he doesn't want to break it off because he's afraid of her or something, then you aren't in the right place to deem what is "better" for someone. What matters is that she makes him happy, and if you respect him, you'll respect what makes him happy. I'm sorry you feel jealous. But here's the perspective: he's not available, and you're deciding whether you should do something to intervene in his relationship. I don't think it would be very helpful to you to tell him what you think about his gf: it would just alienate him. And I don't think it would provide much closure if you told him how you feel meanwhile he has a girlfriend: that would just be awkward. It's a tough situation to like someone who's taken, but don't you think the situation in and of itself predisposes you to dislike whoever she's with? And wouldn't it feel worse anyway if he were with someone who you consider a goddess? (you know, the type of person who volunteers at children's hospitals 20 hours a week, who's head of every club, who's president of the high school, who does every sport and who you consider absolutely gorgeous...) He could be with anyone, and you'd probably still be jealous. Point is, just because he's chosen someone you don't approve of doesn't give you the right to determine what's best for him. It's best to just move on or keep your silence.

Can you be more specific about your particular situation? Do you keep yourself really well guarded? How do you approach women? How shy are you? There is shy, and then there's shy (or social phobic). The latter involves "GO AWAY" body language (hunched shoulders, crossed arms, head down, neck hunched, eyes on the floor, back arched), and monosyllabic speech (typically reduced to affirmations and negations). Place yourself on the spectrum between that and outright vocalist so that we can better understand your particular shyness.

shy2cool, the title of your post may as well be "The (un)attractiveness of an athlete" and you'd be bound to get the same discussion on the topic as here. Not everyone is going to be attracted to the same quality, some people will be, whereas others won't even take notice of it. And guess what? Shyness is a quality, and everyone empathizes and responds to it differently. As a previous poster said, some people were shy but grew out of it, and they will thereforeeee understand better and try to reach out to you. Other people won't get that far. The important thing is to realize that it's about compatability, and if someone doesn't approach you and if you don't approach them, then there might not have been the compatability factor in the first place. You have to realize that it's not just because of your shyness people aren't approaching you: it's because of the people themselves, for whatever reason they may have (and it could be something going on in their lives or other things beyond your control), and you probably don't want to get to know them if that's their attitude. The next important thing to realize is that to the people who find shyness unattractive (though remember that the population as a whole is split, as this thread may attest to), you shouldn't hold yourself back. If you find someone interesting, take a risk and approach her. If you master the ability to laugh at yourself when things don't go as expected, you'll have nothing to lose. And it's a great thing to be able to admit to yourself, "I tried, oh well," and then just laugh it off. Anyway, don't let the misconceptions out there about shyness make you think that it is an unattractive quality. No quality is universally attractive or unattractive. It's an asset really as other posters have said: it makes you a good listener, and makes you more perceptive and aware. Harness it to your advantage. Read books about it. Try to understand the origins of your shyness if there are any standout causes (like in my case, it was a series of rejections in middle school - so original, lol, but very much altering years later). See what you can do if there are any particular incidences that have made you shy (gestalt therapy, writing, discussing with others, confronting your internalized demons (if any of these should apply...)). It'll help ease up the nerves and the tension when you initially approach people, which in turn will boost your confidence. But remember to preserve some of your shy demeanor, because it's part of who you are and you should be proud of it!

You haven't really clarified: how much did you talk to her before asking her for the SN? I agree with the other posters, it's safest to just talk to her. For both your sake's, just take things casually. Find out if you really are compatible. As Alabama said, don't assume anything. Maybe she just asked where you were out of curiosity? You haven't really said how much you two have interacted, but it doesn't seem like much. I wouldn't get my hopes up and lure myself to possible disappointment. Just start some conversations for the time being. As for the bus situation (great diagram, btw! lol), I think she would sense you were up to something if you sat with Some Girl (if that seating arrangement has been the norm for the entire year). Which might be a good thing, if she responds positively to it. Why not try seeking her out during lunch when your lunch periods coincide, and start from there? Once you start getting to know each other, I think the bus situation will remedy itself.

It's not like these things are within control of the shy person. We don't intentionally try to barracade ourselves away and then send out death stares when people approach us. I, for one, make an honest effort to always smile when people approach me and then start and keep up the conversation (and no, I don't just nod: I actually talk). Being shy already means being condemned to these social difficulties. But how is it fair to be blamed additionally for rudeness and self-centeredness when most of us make an effort to stow away our mounting self-consciousnesses...?