Shadows Light

Brando.... Exactly. Now, why is it that you can understand that and my ex can not. Can not understand that and accept it and move on. Maybe in time he will. As for the one making the cut off... its not an easy thing to do. I made the analogy of an amputation because that is essentially what it is. Gangreene. You need that limb, you've grown accustomed to that limb, but if you don't do something about it it will infect and take over the rest of you till there is nothing left. Relationships and the dance... Arn't they just a wonderful thing. Things start out just so Rosey and then get all muddled somewhere in the evolution of it. Again... I'm not saying to the orginal poster that it can't be remidied. I'm saying that once the trust is broken. You have to work that much harder or put in that much more in the kitty for it to take root. Its a fine line and balancing act. And my suggestion of "make the changes for yourself" is what it boils down to. You should want to change to be a better person for yourself. Its not just the one that is closest to you that gets the essense of you... its everyone you come into contact with. I've seen my ex dress down other family members and friends alike. They may make exceptions for him because they don't live with him 24/7.... however, I'll bet even money that they distance themselves from him to an extent. And he may even lose out on what could be "GREAT" friendships or relationships with others. IMO.

Lovely Lady.....what does your heart tell you???? Do you believe in psycics?? Have you talked to HIM.... give it a whirl and somehow... try to find it in your heart to forgive and live with it. Because that is what your heart is truly telling you to do "at this time".... When and if you are ready to leave or walk away from this... you will know... you won't need a psycic to tell you what your future holds. When you are ready to walk away from it ... you will just "do it" So right now... the question is... how do you work through the pain? And how do you get over this bump or crater or pot hold in the road on your journey.

Ocean Eyes/Brando.... Exactly...I keep having to sit here and applaud the both of you because everytime I come back to the string of posts it hits a personal note with me. My EX... always said he was sorry. "I'm sorry for what I said...I didn't mean it"... "I'm sorry for being a 'Butt' head.. I didn't mean it..." and when it keeps happening over and over again... you get to the point that you have to say...no more. Gromlin... every one's tolerance level is different. Me? I'd finally reached my tolerance level...there's no more give in it. If I forgive and think, ok...this time he's really going to stick with it... this time he's really gonna change.. I know, deep in my heart I will be disapointed again. So there comes a time where no matter how much you want to make good and nicely nice nice... you have to shut it off, cut it out, and amputate it... and don't look back and cut your losses. When you reach point of diminshing returns... or the point you think you made a bad investment... do you keep throwing good money after bad??? (sorry to put it in business or stock market terminology but its just an analogy). Gromlin.. the best advice I can give to you is... if she's still around then there's a glimmer of hope. Keep thinking positive. Keep the good changes in your life, not just for her... but for yourself. Because they make you a better person. A happier person. And like "oceans said"... build that trust back. It'll take a long time....but you'll get what you put into it. How much is it worth to you to learn the art of "patience"....

Very well said Brando. Very eloquent. I still stand by that people don't forget. What I mean is they get over it and learn from it. Hopefully both parties have learned from it. In this day and age yes forgiveness doesn't seem to come easy. What I struggle with is the constant..."I'm sorry"... everytime you turn around its..."I'm sorry"... well, thats why we have morals, values and social conduct unspoken rules.. to make one aware. "I'm sorry" constantly doesn't cut it. We can be saying..."I'm sorry" till dooms day and that is wearing and old. I think you hit the nail on the head where you said that a person needs to be aware and mindful. That seems to be lacking in today's society...everyone is "ME ME ME ME ME" you don't see a lot of selflessness or mindfulness of other peoples feelings. What I see is people caring only for their own happiness and grasping for their own ESPRIT...and don't hold their partner in esteem, nor support one another and allow each other to grow and to learn. Gromlin33 keep learning and keep growing. You've found awareness... now find patience. Keep loving her and showing her that this "change" is a permanent change. You may be a manly man...but your also a gentle and loving soul. She'll get it. Give it time

Very well said Brando. Very eloquent. I still stand by that people don't forget. What I mean is they get over it and learn from it. Hopefully both parties have learned from it. In this day and age yes forgiveness doesn't seem to come easy. What I struggle with is the constant..."I'm sorry"... everytime you turn around its..."I'm sorry"... well, thats why we have morals, values and social conduct unspoken rules.. to make one aware. "I'm sorry" constantly doesn't cut it. We can be saying..."I'm sorry" till dooms day and that is wearing and old. I think you hit the nail on the head where you said that a person needs to be aware and mindful. That seems to be lacking in today's society...everyone is "ME ME ME ME ME" you don't see a lot of selflessness or mindfulness of other peoples feelings. What I see is people caring only for their own happiness and grasping for their own ESPRIT...and don't hold their partner in esteem, nor support one another and allow each other to grow and to learn. Gromlin33 keep learning and keep growing. You've found awareness... now find patience. Keep loving her and showing her that this "change" is a permanent change. You may be a manly man...but your also a gentle and loving soul. She'll get it. Give it time

Well good for you... you've come a long way. Change is a difficult thing to make and to hang onto. If you're wife is leary of you ...then give her time to get used to the "New and Improved You".... Unfortunately... here's the skinny. She may forgive but she'll never forget. Most people don't. What you were 14 years ago...can't be. You are only "NEW" once. However............ your saving grace is that you do have lots of good memories together. And you can build more good memories together. Its a good thing. 14 years ago... you'll never get back. The here and now... different story. Have patience and lead by example. If you stick with smothing long enough it becomes habit.... like your bad habit of having a bad attitude and saying mean things to her. Be patient. Be romantic. Be kind. Be gentle. Be consisant and stick with this NEW YOU.... Read up my friend and keep learning.

How are these women like your MOTHER or are they a complete 180 degree from your mother? They say we attract what we are imprinted with and thereforeeee most comfortable with. That which we grow up with... our moms. Some people did not have the greatest relationship with mom or they spent their life time getting away for an "Overly smuthering mother"... so they pick the EXACT opposite. Just a thought.

I can't really tell by your post what you're question is? The response that EAGLEMAN8 came up with seem to be "Patience". One of the Virtues after all. You say that you've been her friend. And that she is going through a NASTY divorce. I'm sure that she appreciates having a strong shoulder to cry on and a male perspective during these hard times. You haven't said if you've opened yourself up to her in your post...but I guess I'll add a word of caution for you. Are you sure that what "YOU" arn't feeling is a little bit of rebound. That is always a fear. What if this "ANGEL of paragon and virtue" turns out to have a rusty halo and tatered beaten down wings? Just a thought. Its refreshing and even awe inspiring to hear a man talk about someone the way you have talk about her. And I'm sure you are just sweeping her off her feet... however, it sounds as if she's pretty much swept off her feet going through a divorce. I can tell you from experience. My experience that she is probably scared, and all alone... and scared to death and all alone. I have 2 children myself. And I know that they are the most precious thing in the world to me. I left a marriage to save myself... and to save them. I would be very leary at this stage of the game to put myself back into the frying pan let alone take them with me. Hell, right now... if I get up every morning, make it to work, nothing breaks, no one gets hurt, and I can put food on the table...and the kids bathed and bedded and in one piece... I consider it a good day. Let alone thoughts of anything else. I'll bet you even money she's exhausted... I know I sure as hell am. Can't speak for your lady love...but I was made promises. And I was told all those wonderful things and I was led down the garden path. No... not the same..I don't think I've ever been spoken to quite so eloquently or been treated like an ANGEL...lol. I was was treated more like the devil in disquise. You call her ANGEL... LOL.. I can think of not so lovely names my ex called me... and still calls me today... LOL... You'd think old beazlebub and I were kin folk..... Back to my point... filing for a divorce to get out of a bad situation was a big step for me. I had more to consider than just me. My kids. And ALL the choices I make... everything I say or do.. will affect them for the rest of thier lives. Certainly... I didn't think our situation was a healthy one. Verbal abuse. Throwing tantrums.. he' break things... good old apathy... drinking.... diregard... ohhh yes and extra curricular activities along with excentric taste in...ahhhem... whatever whatever... and finally .. the thing that broke the camels back. A disregard for my kids.. seeing that he was storming at the kids THAT MADE ME SEE RED. All I could think of was... I wouldn't let him do it to them. I'd have put up with ANYTHING... because I too settled. But I didn't struggle to put these kids on this gods green earth to have someone tear them down to shreds. Soooo I can see where your lady love may have trepidation and would be commitment phobic. I'm sure she's still hurting very deeply. No one gets married to get divorced. And right now she's in the middle of a fight for her life. Regaining her life for herself and her children. Figuring out who she is and trying to sort it all out. Patience. Have patience. I'm glad that you have found "Love" and a rare gem in this day and age. One of the greatest things you have going for you is that you are her friend. That you have a friendship. Sounds like thats the best medicine for both of you. No matter how this comes out in the wash, you should hold on to it. LOL... I wrote a few other posts under "Smooth Move" in Romance section. You sound very much like that gentleman I was talking about. The little things. Holding a door open, holding her hand, a kiss on the cheek, a smile. Kind words, lots of laughs... you have to laugh... this world beats the every living crap out of you that you just have to find the humor in it all to survive. All the things that you've mentioned above that you do for her.... sound very very sweet. What woman wouldn't love that kind of Love, devotion and attention? Do you think that maybe she is just holding the reigns in because maybe she can't let herself go? Or maybe she wonders if she's being handed a line... or if she's being strung along.. or hell who knows... you might be too good to be true. and right now it just blows her mind away... or maybe Because she's afraid of the hurt or to be hurt again? or maybe she's too focused on trying to get out of her NASTY DIVORCE and needs to put that behind her. Also... you mentioned that you are emotionally and physically separated from you wife. Are you divorced? in the midst of Divorce Court? Sounds like you have much in your back-yard to clean up before either one of you can even pursue any type of open relationship. Maybe she's unsure of you because of your situation. Separated you may be... Free you are not. Thats a biggie. LOL. I know I wouldn't want to tangle with anyones hellcat of a wife right now... Not NO but HELL NO... the thought sends cold chills running up and down my spine. A very precarious situation you find yourself in my friend. Not knowing all the variables...and exactly what her issues are with her divorce... or yours for that matter. But I can speak from my own heart... I'd be afraid of letting myself go again. And not being able to catch my heart if it should crumble. My worst fear in getting involved with someone is that I would be used again. Or I'd think about my kids... OMG.. I'm like a mother lion with my cubs.. I think I'd tear into anything breathing if they hurt my kids. I have a friend who just remarried. Its a case of her 3 kids and his 3 kids. And OMG.. the blended family. He has problems with her kids. And she has problems with his. And the two of them butt heads over how to raise those kids. Its amazing. Its been quite interesting taking notes and seeing how they handle the issues that crop up. Yikes... this post can go on and on... with What if's. LOL... Sorry, I don't know if I've been a help or hinderance here. I responded to your post because it sounded like one of the most romantic.. compared to most down the thread. LOL. Romance my dear man is a lost art it seems. Whatever you do. Keep that alive and kicking. My advice to you. Do what you have to do for your own situation and take care of that. Let her get out and on land on her feet again. And in the mean time... continue to be her friend and nurture that friendship. Friends are few and far inbetween in this lifetime. I'm sure that given time and patience, you'll dance in the rain, walk under the stars and giggle to your hearts content. LOL. If you truly love her and are head over heals in love with her and you are her friend.... I am sure that love will be recipricated.. if it isn't already recipricated. Which brings me to my last final observation... WOW.. I haven't thought of that... What if she loves you...but its not as intense as you love her??? Meaning... you sound like a very deep deep romantic individual... could it be that you "love" more deeply than others... meaning... how will you ever know she loves you enough... What would it take? or what if she can't love you with the same intensity that you think is right... or feel right.... orrrr..... if right now.. she only has sooooo much of her heart to give... what would be enough???? Sorry... I tried to help... I hope I have and not just raised more questions for you or your level of anxiety... My last and final piece of advice...ok a few of them... A good friend of mine ... told me "Improvise, addapt and overcome.." Don't know if it fits your situation..but its gotten me through an anxious moment or two. Relax... Relax ... Relax.... And last but not least... my favorite analogy of all time... Ever go white water rafting??? Well... its easier to go with the rapids and the water than it is to STAND up against the currents and fight it. So.... just relax and see what adventures that this little trip takes you on. LOL. Enjoy the ride. Let me know how you're doing and PM me anytime.

OK...This from the biggest flirt there ever was. CHILL. It could be nothing. I flirt on a conscience level..and most of the time its unconscience.. I don't even know I am doing it. WHY??? I've always been one of the guys... I've had more guy friends that I do female friends. You can be attracted to allot of people... for whatever reason. Maybe she just has a good rapport with him .. hey look he's your best friend too so it could be a BUDDY thing. How to handle this. Maybe talk to her about the feelings you are having. Maybe stress that you are NOT- the JEALOUS type..(this turns women off) BUT... recently the seeds have been planted and now you have a green eyed monster growing inside you and it bugs you because... you have feelings for her...and you like your best friend. Get it out on the table, and go from there.

Was she actually referring to "penetration time"???? the whole time... ???? There is absolutely no way. Most women would be raw. I hate to ask this but was she "sober" with the other guys??? or were those guys "sober".... there's nothing worse for a woman than a guy with "Whisky uhhhem" and it lasting forever and ever and ever and ever. Makes a girl feel like she's not all that and a bag of chips to make him happy. And nooooo... don't get any ideas about boozing it up to stay longer... worse than "whiskey uhhhem..." is when they don't finish at all... fall asleep on you... or god forbid..get up to get sick. ohhhh yuk. And third of all.. how very crass.... why would someone who loves you tell you that her other guys were better or stayed longer? If I were a guy I'd take it as an insult as a low low low blow (no pun intended). I agree with the other posts... the act is special. And it is preceded by lots of foreplay. I can see lots of touching, feeling, kissing, nuzzling, etc.. leading up to it. There you go.. that would constitute 30 minute to an hour.. total time. Quickies have their place to. Thanks for the WEB Site PB.. excellent. I agreed with that article... all the "stuff" leading up to the act would be aces in my book. And TRIED... 7.3 minutes huh??? well then.... good artcle. Didn't know that. The longest time.... hmmmm never really looked at the clock. But I can tell you that if there is plenty of build up ...up to that point...and you always vary it... its exciting and wonderful and magical. If magic is created... Time just flies right out the window. And who cares. Routine is what most couples complain about. Not so much length of time... and then the lack of intimacy or frequency would be another complaint. You're fine. Don't let this "little girl" get to you. Obviously she's not mature enough to know that the greatest way to a mans heart is to build his ego...not tear it down.

Lovely lady.... Sending you out a huge huge hug.... look. This is hard. Having two kids in the mix is even harder. Lots of variable at play here. Calm. Relax. Its going to be ok. Its going to be ok. keep telling yourself that. You love him. Love is a postive energy. The love you created when you created those children is alive and well. Go have yourself a long hot bubble bath...and relax. Turn on the radio... listen to some music..and get your mind off of this for the moment. Tomorrow morning. Call your insurance and see what you can do about finding a counselor. For the both of you. Or just for you. To help you sort out your emtions and walk you through this. It will be ok. Worry about what you can control. You. You can only control your actions and reactions. You are a wonderful woman and a great mom. And yes.. you are a very loving and caring wife. You're out here trying to find information and trying to look for answers.. you care, your a good person. See if you can go see a counselor together and talk this through. Kids huh??? they add strain and stress to any relationship. Gotta love em. I wonder how our parents did it??? or maybe our parents were just more tolerant or just to darned tired to worry about the things we do. Don't know. We're in a different generation allright.

The finger thing?? telling him.. well thats up to you. You think he might have stopped seeing her because he's moved on with another job.... well thats a good thing. And if he did have an affair... you would be hurt confirming your suspicions...and you'd have to move on? Well... how much is this relationship worth to you? How much do you love him? Personal experience... would "I" want to know? Probably not. I'd probalby want to get over it somehow and put it behind me. My brother-in-law.. cheated on his wife. He and his wife split up. The wife never knew about his infidelity. They split up for other reasons. And he cheated looking for love and comfort because his life was so messed up at home. NOT THE RIGHT THING TO DO. But he broke it off with that woman... and eventually got back together with his wife. First of all..he went back for all the wrong reasons. He wasn't looking for a MATE or a WIFE... he was looking to get away from the PAIN and needed a housekeeper/secrettary/baby-sitter/pair of hands. Anyway... I remember telling him...Do NOT whatever you do... tell her. You will wind up shooting yourself in the foot. Bear the SIN. Carry your own burden and let it be on your conscience. What did he do??? He told her. Did it help??? NOPE. All it did was MASK the problems. So now they were argueing about an AFFAIR. A mistake in judgement he made.. instead of trying to work through their problems. And problem SOLVE. The other woman was out of his life. It was a mistake. He felt guilt. He felt bad about it. He knew he messed up. What they needed to do was stick to the issues... PROBLEM SOLVE how to get their relationship back on track and what it would take to make it better. Not dwell on the mistake. YIKES. OK... move on. Decide what your boundaries are and what you are willing to accept and not accept. Will you ever really know now??? If he has NOT had an affair...and he tells you he has NOT. How can he prove it to you???? He can't. IF he has had an affair and made a mistake... and he knows that it would be the END of you as a couple.. do you think he'll come clean????? NOPE. Maybe he's feeling guilty and so he's preoccupied himself with other things. Who knows. Maybe not. Talk to him... and stick to the issues... Stick to what is happening to the two of you TODAY, what is happening right now. Your wants...Your needs. How and What will make it better. Who knows... he might be struggling how to approach you with the conversation too. Give it a whirl.

Lovelyone... sounds like you need to have a "Come to Jesus" talk. SOON. And for your peace of mind. You don't need to prove anything to anyone... thats just silly. I don't know what a good way would be to open this conversation up with him. You might check it out on the net or a few books in the library about infidelity or relationships. Dr. Phil is an excellent resource for self-help books. What works for me lots of times is writing it down. Go down that list of 10 things... and write down what it is that is wrong. Sit down and go over the list with him. Say look... we have a problem. First of all, I don't know how you feel about his having friends of the opposite sex...but it might make you feel uncomfortable. Let him know that. And tell him why. Look. I don't have a problem with you having female friends. However, things between us haven't been the same. I don't feel close to you anymore and I don't know why? Is there something I am doing or something that is wrong with us?? I can't fix me if I don't know what it is. Second... you spend a lot of time on the internet. And it bothers me...because we don't spend time together. Its sooo easy to get sucked into the internet and wile your time away... but can we set aside us time.... Third... ask him. Ask him why all the interest in "where to kiss you" or "how to kiss you"... it could be that he just feels inadequate and wants to spice it up... or be better. Or maybe he's trying to hint to you that he needs you to touch him differently or kiss differently. Sometimes I think people are afraid to explore or be adventurous or are too shy to ask for what they want. Let me offer you and example: Lets say I picked up a steamy romance novel off the shelf. AND... OMG the intimacy in it was HOT... the Romance was HOT. And it really flipped my lid reading it. And... the reason it did that is because....hmmm that sounds great... gee, I wish my husband did that for me. Or I wish my relationship was more like that. Soooo ... what if I told my husband, "Honey, I'd like it if you did this... or I'd really like it if you did that.." or if I became BRAVE and did something for him.... would that constitute having an AFFAIR or trying to GROW as a person. You know what I mean? Not trying to confuse you...but don't jump to conclusions and think the worst. You need to talk and get it on the table. You need to open up lines of communications. I think... or I believe that people will have affairs because something is lacking in their lives or because lines of communications have broken down. They go to the area of least resistance and pain. Ok..and then there are a few sickos out there who just want another notch on thier belt loop so they can pound their chests in a NEANDERATRHAL way and shout... I AM MALE... or I AM A WOMAN... hear me roar. Calm down. Get yourself relaxed. And find a bit of peace to sort your thoughts out on paper. Seeing it written down... helps plot your course of action. Be very thorough. And think through your options. Then... Sit him down. And get to talking. And yes... you're gonna have to leverage this... "LOOK... do we fix it??? Are you willing to FIX it???" and if not... be prepared to leave. Find yourself a good marriage counselor. I want to add... and I know this is painful. Plan your escape route a head of time. Be prepared. If this heads south... what are you going to do? How will you do it? Do you have the money to do it? and which family members and friends can you lean on? Just be prepared. It will give you more courage to take things in hand... knowing there is Plan A through Plan Z in place. Calm calm calm... relax. I want to add that my marriage went very very wrong.. and over the years I've tried all sorts of self-help books and to sort it out. And yes, Marriage Counseling. One of the things that I did in the end was SHUT down. My husband likes to throw barbs and things he would say, do or not do HURT. When "I" made the change and didn't BITE...because I wouldn't argue things escalated.. he was after me more... trying to make me react. The more he pushed... the quieter I got. Defence mechanism. And I told him.. I'm done. I don't want to argue anymore. I can't. You take care of your temper and your issues...but I can't do it anymore. ya, know... I think had he looked to himself and what he was doing instead of pointing fingers things may have turned out differently. I couldn't CHANGE him. But I could change myself. Sooooo..... if you can... be open. Be honest. Be non-judgemental and non-confrontational. Talk to him. See whats cooking in that Noggin of his. See if you both can't make changes for EACH other that would work for the both of you. Relationships are dynamic. Nothing in this world stays the same. Things change on a daily basis out in the world.. so How can it not in your relationship???? Work with that. And see if you can't change up the game for the both of you. HUGS to YOU. You will be ok. Believe in yourself.

You've been a good friend. And sometimes a good friend needs to "slap you in the face with some brutal honesty". I have a friend who is very cut and dry and to the point. WOW. Sometimes she say's things to me that are just way to the point. When she say's them... I might not be ready to hear. But they stick. I'll think about it later and if I find those points vaild... I make the adjustments. You can't change someone who doesn't want to change. That is up to her. Suggest counseling... or bring up the subject how so-n-so was having problems sorting it through and with the help of a counselor, someone who doesn't know you... someone who is on the outside... and someone who is non-judgemental and doesn't have an emotional investment... helped our "friend" or someone you know make great changes for themselves. Buy her some books like, Simple Abundances of Life. Chicken Soup for the Soul books. Books that can inspire her. If her attitude and actions are hurting you... there is only so much you can do. Maybe make your point and put a little distance between you. LOL... I have a friend I met who has been divorced for 12 years. Beautiful Woman. But OMG.. the poster child for why to NOT get divorced. She hasn't been able to land on her feet in that 12 years. Looking for Luv in all the wrong places and that type of thing. And here I am in the middle of a divorce and listening to her scares the Bejesus out of me. Its a downer. Big time. Soooo... I know where you are coming from. This women also does nothing to really help herself get out of the rut. And all I can do is suggest and be an ear when I can or have the energy to listen. Good-luck.

There are many web-sites and books out there that will give you a list of things to look for. One of the things they tell you is that if you "suspect" he's having an affair... he probably is. Another.. is sexual technique variation. If there's a withdrawl or non-interest then it could be a sign. Or a pre-occupation with sex.. it could be a sign. Or all of a sudden he comes up with new ideas or varies from the "routine" that could be a sign. I need to temper this and say...be careful with looking for a "needle in the haystack" I was accused of having an affair when... I wasn't. A few times as matter of fact. Look at those lists... if they dress differently... well hell we women always give ourselves "make-overs"... if they lose weight or are pre-occupied with working out. There u go... if you descide to work on yourself and your body... is that a sign of an affair. Sex Techniques.. hmmm well... what if they are doing what you are doing and cruising these forums and learning "NEW" things to spice it up. To get out of the routine?? That could be misconstrued as a sign. ooohhh yeah.. I started listening to "different music"... was this a sign??? yeah... but for me it was the fact that I learned how to work the computer.. if you get my drift.. so was it a sign... possibly. What I'm trying to say is... if you feel something is off... then yeah.. it is probably OFF. The female co-worker could just be a "friend" and someone he talks to. I'm speaking from experience because I've always related to MEN better than WOMEN... and so its not a surprise to me to be talking to my Guy friends about their relationships and offering them up advice. You never know. Go on a Witch Hunt and you might give him Ideas and push him in that direction.. then you'll certainly find your witch. I think... since you have doubts and this is obviously hurting you. You need to sit down and talk to your husband. You need to get it out on the table. And in a non-confrontational way. And if need be... go find yourself a "marriage counselor" they truly truly help nip these things in the butt and help you work through communication problems. BTW... if he is having an affair. IT IS HIS FAULT. Put the blame where it should be... and not with this other woman. Who knows what he has told her.. or what she has been lead to believe etc etc. I hate it when people jump on the one who's on the outside of the marriage and shift the blame. Who knows what sob story he may have told her and she see's him as this sweet sweet man who needs luv and attention.... The issue is between you and him. Keep that focus. Affair or no-Affair.... something is not right. So nip it in the butt. Good-luck.. PM me anytime if you need an ear.

You can't get your mother to do anything. She has to do it for herself. But maybe you can lead by example. Should you ignore these people and wipe them out of your life? Yes, if that is what makes you happy. Will you be able to do it? Maybe not totally. You can pick and choose whether to go to family gatherings..but then there will be family gatherings that will be unavoidable... i.e. Funerals, Weddings and the like. Turn a new page. If you do have to face them down. Look them square in the eye and let 'em have it. If they should ask you a question that you don't want to answer or is personal...ask "why do you want to know?" "why is it important to you?" Making fun of people at their expense is not fun. No one likes to be the butt of a joke. Your uncle is warped. And people who usually do that are insecure about themselves. They will make someone else he butt of the joke to take the "eyes" off of them. So, whats he hiding????? What little skeletons is he trying to bury so no one will look? You have many fine accomplishments. You've gone to college and have a degree. A Fine Arts degree is a good degree. Its a well rounded education. You got a modeling job? Wow. That is a terrific accomplishment. And you work for an advertising agency... mega wow. Sounds like extended family may be a bit "green with envy". Be proud of yourself and your accomplishments. I put up with years with little snippy comments from a SIL. drove me nuts. Couldn't understand why or what she had against me. And when I graduated from college... OMG.. there was nothing, nada, absolutely nothing... no acknowledgement of WOW great going. So... I've come to the conclusion its "envy".... gotta be. And thats something I can't control. I'm not going to dumb myself down for anyone else. I'm not arrogant about it. And I try to be low key. But I'm not going to dumb down either. Be proud of you!!! Keep walking to your own drummer. Those people don't pay your bills nor put food on your table. And yes... its hard but when faced with it.. I had a difficult time. And I'm still learning to mark my "BOUNDARIES"... when they get into your face, look em in the eye and tell em..."STOP. What you just said is mean, spiteful and hurtful. Where do you get off? What gives you the right? don't you EVER EVER talk to me that way again...." And when you dress em down.... turn on your heel and walk away. You'll have to ... to regroup. Don't let em see you sweat. You'll get your self-esteem back. And maybe someday they'll learrn to be descent. And if they don't... who cares right???

Well, the divorce is almost finalized. July 21st is our courtdate. Am having a difficult time still with it. Ex is still nasty and spiteful. Drops barbs and poison arrows where ever he can. And in front of the kids. Meanwhile I am in therapy and taking it one day at a time. I take it day by day and somehow I make it. Piecing together a life. I read everything I can get my hands on and I scan these forums. I think what bugs me the most is my circle of friends. We had "OUR" friends. Coincidentally most of these people were "HIS" friends before we met. Don't know how that happened. I never had a large circle of friends to begin with. And to him none of them were good enough anyway. He said I had "bad" judgement when it came to picking friends. So, over time "His" friends became our friends. And now...they are "HIS" friends after all these years. None of them call me. None of them stop over. None to ask..."how are you, how are the kids?" and that bothers me a great deal. I was recently invited to a Grad party. The collective bunch would have been there. Including him. I sent a card and gift. I couldn't go yet. Especially since he's being contentious and nasty. But other than that....they are all gone. My circle of friends. I've started to rebuild my life with a small circle of friends. He said "they are NOT your friends". People I've met at work and known for years. And I have a few left from wayback...who've been there for me no matter what. He said..."they are not your friends" where were they all these years, they barely call...you don't hang out with them. Those people are not your friends." I'm a working mom. I work 40+ hrs a week at work. And then I spend every other waking hour with my kids. I catch up on house work etc. when they are occupied (which is rare) or when they are asleep. I don't have time to coffee clatch. And neither do my friends. Some of them moms like me, doing what I do. I barely have "me" time. One of the things I did enjoy were the "few and far" inbetween times we spent with friends and that is gone now. I did notice that during our marriage we rarely ever had anyone over our house. Even just to play cards. It was one of my minor complaints. For my side, I can say its because if I invited someone over... I'd be running the show. Clean the house, prepare dinner, entertain, clean-up afterward. And working so hard and being a mom... I just had no energy left. I remember reading a letter "ERMA BOMBECK" and a letter she left before she passed. About how if she had it over to do again, she'd have company over and let the dust sit. Who cares. My sentiments exactly. And I tried to have people over. It just never clicked. Don't know why. With the few friends who were "my" friends before hubby. They tell me they thought he was arrogant and condensending. They saw that I was the work horse. They never said anything because they thought I was down with it. Ok with me. But no... I wasn't down with it. I fought a losing battle daily. I think I've hit an ANGRY stage of this divorce. I keep going back over and over again "why" and "how". One of my complaints to him was always "division of labor" somehow he always managed to weasle out of stuff or do it so poorly that I wouldn't ask again. Now, looking back at some of the shananigans he pulled, I can laugh about it. I used to talk to myself and say "OMG, no one can be this stupid. This isn't rocket science." and I was right. He was as dumb as a fox. I was the stupid one who kept doing it. Someone had to. I put up watching him drink. I put up with his verbal abuse. I put up with his tantrums. I put up with his breaking stuff for good measure. I put up with his foibles and his ways. I put up with his family. Even after I'd found the "gay porn" on his computer... I didn't automatically freak... he had a plausible explanation for it...they were "pop-ups" and then later admitted He was curious. (co-incidentally our sex life had many gaps of extended periods of time we were not intimate) which he also had an excuse for...but in my heart of hearts I knew. And I put up with a lot of things over the years... he'd tell me, you are too senstive. Get a thicker skin. So, I put up with thinking there was something wrong with me for years. And I know deep inside there is nothing wrong with me, but a wee part of me still disbelieves. And thats the part that sometime takes over and I beat myself up over it. My GF tells me I am so brave. That I have courage. I am scared to death. Standing up for myself and standing on my own two feet is the right thing to do. But I'm scared to death. Our friends jumping on board his ship. Well, I think what makes me the angriest is that they are buying into his BS. He's painted me as the tramp. The no good lying cheating tramp. And they believe him. So, I am damned to rebuilding my life. And looking over my shoulder. If I'm seen with a male friend having a cup of coffee, lunch or dinner... then it all had to be true. LOL. How funny. So, I can't be normal and have anyone over to help me fix anything...or to talk to me. I guess I haven't gotten over that learning curve of "getting over" what others think of me. I'm sensitive to it. I guess what I'm trying to say is... what makes me angry is that all these people were my friends. And through this whole thing, I've played fair. I've been quiet. I won't play dirty. And he's done just the opposite and I am getting the brunt of the blame. I'm being strung up because I'm intolerant. I've been told over and over its a womans lot in life. I've been told over and over thats just the way it is. And I've been told over and over... "ALL MEN" are the same. They are all this way. I just can't believe it. I can not buy into that way of thinking. Maybe I'm looking for vindicaton I will never get. Don't know. I just know that it saddens me that friends I've talked to over the years and shared my life with... can not seem to pick up the phone anymore. And that makes me feel so all alone in this world and angry. OK......... done with the cry fest... just needed to vent... and get it out... time to get, suck it up...put on the face and march on. LOL.

As simple as a case of beer eh???? MAN... OH MAN... where has the romance gone... can I at least wear a trench coat without anything underneath....

quote OK... I thought this deserved a separate string. But to play off of STRATGUY620.. who wanted to make his GF go weak in the knees.... What are the things women can do to make guys go weak in the knee's... appart from the obvious. If I wanted to impress my significant other and make his heart go pitter patter or make him feel like a school boy and give him goosebumps... what are some ideas I could emply... wear/do/say... open to all suggestions.

Shy Soul... well thank-you so much for the flowers.. much much appreciated... LOL... and today.. I can really use them, virtual or real, they made my day. Along with that box of chocolates. I'm batting 1000. Not that I've given up on vanity and all the beauty products, but I've become comfortable in my own skin. So love me for my flannel PJ's or sultry nightgowns. Getting the complements or seeing a mans eyes light up no matter what you look like... is a turn on. True true true. Small World.... YES YES YES. To all of your comments but most of all to the ones about how a man treats others. A man who offeres a helping hand to a friend or a complete stranger is aces in my book. If he treats friends, family and strangers with self-less kindness then you know he will treat you with the same and love you. I'm a northern gal and very much my own person. Hate the word feminist....has not so nice conotations sometimes. But you know what's really nice... a guy who will open doors for you. A guy who will walk with you and put his hand on the small of your back. A guy who calls you "darlin', sweetheart, honey, sugar".... recently took a trip down south and I was tripping over myself with how them southern boys treat a girl. LOL. Makes you want to go home and bake them an APPLE PIE and treat them like royalty. What you send out.... comes back to you. Take care ya'll..... I think I want to start a blog on what makes men melt... or turn on's..... women don't give ya'll enough credit, because it can't just be the "obvious" (eye's rolling and grin). See you in the next string.

You need to nip this in the bud NOW. The best advise I can give you is to go see a counselor. Someone who can referee and help you develop better tools for communicating. And both of you make the adjustments you need to make it work. I'm glad that you are taking her request for divorce seriously. I spent years reading self-help books, sweeping things under the rug.... tried marriage counseling. The counseling worked for a little while and only on "some" issues. More self-help books....and the "D" word came up a lot with me. It was almost a warning I kept sending out... telling him.."HELLO.. things need to change, I'm not happy... you're leaving me no alternatives here.... " I even asked to go to counseling again... and he blew off the "D" word... and things just sprialed out of control... until one day... SNAP And once you get that SNAP. And she's done. She wil be done. So take it seriously...that she's using the "D" word. Neither one of you can be too happy with the situation as it is... so do everything you can to fix it. BTW... I am going through a Divorce right now. And we have 2 children. 6 and 3. And he is "nasty nasty nasty" about it. Has accused me of cheating... of lying... of everything under the sun. Becareful of accusing her of cheating... if you go on a WITCH HUNT...you might find one. Sometimes people get accused once too often...that they'll just might go out and do it... cause if they are going to be accused, the might as well be guilty of it. Not saying this is my case... have a good friend this happened to. Bottom line... again.. nip it in the bud. Be gentle. Be non-confrontational. And go see a counselor. Good-luck. PM me anytime if you need to talk.

What I found helps me is not shaving in the shower. Sit in a bath and let the skin get saturated... use a new razor and shaving cream. I'd love to get the nerve to WAX...but then how long do you have to let your hair grow to wax.... how long between wax jobs????

If you're in the States... tell her to call Planned Parenthood. They should be able to help her. And its cost efficient... I think they ask for a donation if you have the $$. They'll run a PAP on her for STD's or Yeast. If its anytyhing more serious they'll send her to a Gyno.... or be able to advise her accordingly. Using over the counter products, like femine powders and douches don't help. Infact, most of those products have fragrance in them and may make things worse. Have her see someone asap. If it turns out to be a simple case of Yeast Infection... at least her fears and anxiety will have been aleviated quickly.

Yep... it gave me a giggle and a grin... and thanx for the chocolate. Luv it! The orginal poster asked about what makes a woman melt... and the bottom line is... use your imagination and have fun. You have to keep having fun. Its all fun, games and giggles in the beginning. When its fresh and new. And after a while LIFE takes over. Understandably. However, women are like kitty cats... we need the strokes (pardon the pun) and the love. Be creative. Pack a picnic basket and pretend you're on the beach in your living room in the middle of winter. Leave love notes.. in her car. Men are visual animals... hence, women spend so much $$ on beauty products and clothes. Women are cerebral or auditory... whispering sweet nothings in our ear gives us a zing... or it give me a zing anyway... a love pat on the diererre... or butterfly carress in passing... and whooo hooo... gets us to thinkin. Its all about the build up for us... and granted it takes more to build us up...but the pay off as Pressfit pointed out... it 100 fold. PET PEEVE: In todays fast paced, fast food society.. we've become desensitized... have you ever noticed how many restraurants today have entertainment. Big Screen TV's. TV's with Trivia games... and Tonz of Eye candy Cha-cki's to look at while you have you're meal. Next time you go out... look around, you can tell which couples are Newly dating....and which couples have been together for a long time. Newbies, will be staring at each other, laughing and conversing. Oldies, one or both will be distracted zoning out to the TV or staring at the cha-cki's. You want to keep your signifcant other at a "melting" point??? well, if she's distracted then start telling her what you're going to do or would like to do with her when you get out of the restaurant. Paint a picture. Want to really set her off... don't wait till you get home. And for the woman out there... its nice to be a woman and be able to wear dress or skirt isn't it... when your mate is distracted... whisper in his ear that you have NOTHING underneath that dress.... and ZING. You've got his attention. LOL. Thanks for the grins Pressfit. Loved it!!

Yep... it gave me a giggle and a grin... and thanx for the chocolate. Luv it! The orginal poster asked about what makes a woman melt... and the bottom line is... use your imagination and have fun. You have to keep having fun. Its all fun, games and giggles in the beginning. When its fresh and new. And after a while LIFE takes over. Understandably. However, women are like kitty cats... we need the strokes (pardon the pun) and the love. Be creative. Pack a picnic basket and pretend you're on the beach in your living room in the middle of winter. Leave love notes.. in her car. Men are visual animals... hence, women spend so much $$ on beauty products and clothes. Women are cerebral or auditory... whispering sweet nothings in our ear gives us a zing... or it give me a zing anyway... a love pat on the diererre... or butterfly carress in passing... and whooo hooo... gets us to thinkin. Its all about the build up for us... and granted it takes more to build us up...but the pay off as Pressfit pointed out... it 100 fold. PET PEEVE: In todays fast paced, fast food society.. we've become desensitized... have you ever noticed how many restraurants today have entertainment. Big Screen TV's. TV's with Trivia games... and Tonz of Eye candy Cha-cki's to look at while you have you're meal. Next time you go out... look around, you can tell which couples are Newly dating....and which couples have been together for a long time. Newbies, will be staring at each other, laughing and conversing. Oldies, one or both will be distracted zoning out to the TV or staring at the cha-cki's. You want to keep your signifcant other at a "melting" point??? well, if she's distracted then start telling her what you're going to do or would like to do with her when you get out of the restaurant. Paint a picture. Want to really set her off... don't wait till you get home. And for the woman out there... its nice to be a woman and be able to wear dress or skirt isn't it... when your mate is distracted... whisper in his ear that you have NOTHING underneath that dress.... and ZING. You've got his attention. LOL. Thanks for the grins Pressfit. Loved it!!