Modern Dating: The Evolution of Courtship for Men and Women

[yogacat]

So I have a question. I was thinking about this the other day and that nowadays some men no longer feel the need to court women. Instead, the norm is to hang out and "chill" at someone's house or go to a bar for drinks. 

Let me preface this by saying that men that I have dated in the past, have been traditional in the sense that they were more traditional with their approach to dating. Though it may not be the case for everyone, this has been my experience.  

However, I have noticed that with some men in today's dating scene, the expectation is to just "hang out" and see where things go.

This is NOT a dig towards men, not in the least, I feel that some men have chosen not to put in the effort to court say due to bad past experiences like he got his heart broken or something terrible like that, thus explaining the change in behavior.

How can we be more cognizant of this and cultivate more meaningful relationships?

Do you think the lack of courting has changed the way men and women approach dating?

[Seraphim]

I think men have been told back off , go away, we are strong women we don’t need you . So men don’t bother . They don’t see a reason to if they are going to be told to back off. 

[boltnrun]

I haven't experienced any of my friends telling men to back off, they don't need them. Well, one of them did but she was trying to be "sassy" because she thought it gave her higher "value" if a man had to "work" to get her attention. But the rest of my friends all pretty universally said they wanted to meet a good man, get married and have a family. Ironically, the sassy one also met a good man and has been married for about 18 years and counting. 

Interestingly, the one friend I have who said they wanted to settle down, get married and have a family when they're ready is still single and has no children...and it's a man. He is in his early 50s. I'm not sure at what point he'll feel ready to settle down!

I have one friend who never married but her idea of dating was to meet a guy and go to his apartment and have sex with him on the first "date". She was puzzled as to why none of them wanted a relationship with her. 

I've been divorced for a zillion years and have been totally single for about a dozen years. Maybe someday I'll want to meet a good man and settle down again but my head is not in the right place right now. 

Of course we're all old so I can't say what the young people are doing these days. My kids are happily partnered (one is married).

[Kwothe28]

1 hour ago, yogacat said:

This is NOT a dig towards men, not in the least, I feel that some men have chosen not to put in the effort to court say due to bad past experiences like he got his heart broken or something terrible like that, thus explaining the change in behavior.

 

I think its more then that. Unlike older days, there is simply no incentive. There was a member of the Forum who posted a thread how he spent around 300 dollars(dinner, wine etc) on 2 dates. Only to get ghosted afterward by both women. They ofcourse never even offered to split. In a world where some women see men as a "meal ticket" and nothing else, there is no incentive for men to splash on stuff like flowers or dinners. It might have before, but today when women can just jump on a dating app, line up couple of dates and your date is labeled as "just some guy that buys me meal", it doesnt really pays up to get splashy. I mean, if that guy has 4 dates a month that is 600 dollars. For women who will forget he existed tomorrow. That is insanity. And sure, maybe some day some woman will appreciate his willigness to "wine and dine" her. But dont really think his wallet would until he finds it. So it gets excruciatingly painful for men like him to continue what they did before. So they make first dates just hang outs or something simple like coffee. As they are very low risk and even if a woman ghosts you tomorrow, you wont feel like she robbed you of anything other then maybe a bit of pride.

[boltnrun]

There are also certain men who are getting so much "booty" they don't feel the need to settle down with just one. The male friend I mentioned who is in his 50s and still is not "ready" to get married even though he says he wants to eventually? He gets so many women approaching him it's just crazy. I guess he doesn't see the need to shut the candy store down just yet. 

[itsallgrand]

5 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

I think its more then that. Unlike older days, there is simply no incentive. There was a member of the Forum who posted a thread how he spent around 300 dollars(dinner, wine etc) on 2 dates. Only to get ghosted afterward by both women. They ofcourse never even offered to split. In a world where some women see men as a "meal ticket" and nothing else, there is no incentive for men to splash on stuff like flowers or dinners. It might have before, but today when women can just jump on a dating app, line up couple of dates and your date is labeled as "just some guy that buys me meal", it doesnt really pays up to get splashy. I mean, if that guy has 4 dates a month that is 600 dollars. For women who will forget he existed tomorrow. That is insanity. And sure, maybe some day some woman will appreciate his willigness to "wine and dine" her. But dont really think his wallet would until he finds it. So it gets excruciatingly painful for men like him to continue what they did before. So they make first dates just hang outs or something simple like coffee. As they are very low risk and even if a woman ghosts you tomorrow, you wont feel like she robbed you of anything other then maybe a bit of pride.

Yeah, and it's a hold over from women not being able to make a living financially wise. Now we can and we do. So there's no real reason for men to be splashing the cash around early on unless he's trying to lead with his wallet. 

I think it's nice to get spoiled, but that comes once you get to know each other and know there's some real developing feelings there. 

I'm not in the dating scene now but I run a business and one thing I notice is how damn flakey a lot of young people are even with regular transactions! Is it a generalization? Hell yes. Does it apply to everyone and will I automatically judge you as flakey if you are younger? Well no, of course not. But it is very noticeable! So if so many have trouble being on time/reliable/communicate directly outside dating, I can only imagine the poop show trying to date them lol. Ghosting is just normal now?! 

My grumpy rant haha. No but really, I think that does play into it. Lower effort all around, lower expectations of even being treated nicely and politely. 

[Seraphim]

30 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

I think its more then that. Unlike older days, there is simply no incentive. There was a member of the Forum who posted a thread how he spent around 300 dollars(dinner, wine etc) on 2 dates. Only to get ghosted afterward by both women. They ofcourse never even offered to split. In a world where some women see men as a "meal ticket" and nothing else, there is no incentive for men to splash on stuff like flowers or dinners. It might have before, but today when women can just jump on a dating app, line up couple of dates and your date is labeled as "just some guy that buys me meal", it doesnt really pays up to get splashy. I mean, if that guy has 4 dates a month that is 600 dollars. For women who will forget he existed tomorrow. That is insanity. And sure, maybe some day some woman will appreciate his willigness to "wine and dine" her. But dont really think his wallet would until he finds it. So it gets excruciatingly painful for men like him to continue what they did before. So they make first dates just hang outs or something simple like coffee. As they are very low risk and even if a woman ghosts you tomorrow, you wont feel like she robbed you of anything other then maybe a bit of pride.

I agree my brother said zero to no incentive for men to do so. 

[smackie9]

Part of it is because of technology. The access to social media that shows the unrealistic expectation of appearance, bad dating advice, also texting/IM that has caused a generation or two to not know how to socialize in person.

The next part is because how they were raised. Don't know proper manners, taught that everyone wins even with no effort (trophy generation) so no such thing as putting your best foot forward/make an effort, such fear of failure because they have never learned to cope with it, no real life experience, etc. It's created a hot mess of uncertain, cowering idiots lol. They were never taught survival skills or how to be a functioning adult whatsoever. So that's why people flake, waffle, dodge, lack any effort, show selfish behavior in larger numbers today. All I can say is thank god I am not single. lol

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, itsallgrand said:

I'm not in the dating scene now but I run a business and one thing I notice is how damn flakey a lot of young people are even with regular transactions! Is it a generalization? Hell yes. Does it apply to everyone and will I automatically judge you as flakey if you are younger? Well no, of course not. But it is very noticeable! So if so many have trouble being on time/reliable/communicate directly outside dating, I can only imagine the poop show trying to date them lol. Ghosting is just normal now?! 

YES.  Totally not just dating.  I'm reliable and timely to a fault. Always have been. It is noticeable.  I don't judge either particularly since I work with a number of young people who don't make a lot of $ and - I feel so secure when I give them assignments that are time sensitive/require reliability, etc.  Their follow up, respect for the deadline, for others on the team - it's great and  I really appreciate it.

I've been flaked on many times when trying to make new friends and it's annoying.

In 2005 my future husband courted me.  The men I dated back then did too (so is this too long ago - probably).  I'm not actually referring to $$ because yes they usually insisted on paying but I wasn't into the free meal thing and drank very little.  Cheapish date lol.  But yes I liked the man doing most of the asking and they did too - I showed interest in many other ways.  I asked out men but it wasn't an effective way back then to find a long term relationship leading to marriage.  

My husband is fairly traditional but from all I could tell this courting thing was pretty common.  Again I suppose this is too long ago to be relevant to this thread.

Back then there were a number of men apparently used to getting sex early on which wasn't going to happen with me.  Some on their own "courted" me and some -moved on to greener pastures (which was a good thing).

I do hear now it's -more casual and far more terms to describe casual hanging out/hooking up.

Edited -I was going to mention the technology piece -I agree with Smackie.

[catfeeder]

Women have flooded colleges in the past decade, and this has resulted in a dating market saturated with an overabundance of successful women. These women tend to seek their equals in terms of education and career aspirations. So they're all in competition for the same men, and these men have discovered that they don't need to try so hard anymore. They can just send rounds of texts like, "You up?"

[bluecastle]

Interesting conversation!

Putting aside the nostalgia-inducing gauze that the word "courtship" carries, @Kwothe28 makes clear what it was always about: incentives. For the man, historically speaking, the incentives were many: sex, money (the dowries that paid back the initial investment and then some), child care, deference. For the woman, they were far fewer but essential, men being their only access to shelter and (some) money for centuries. 

Today all that's been shaken up, has been being shaken up for the better part of half century. In broad brushstrokes: women no longer need men in the same way for shelter and money, sex is no longer seen as sinful outside of marriage, marriage is no longer seen as essential for social respect, and so on. All that, I would argue, is wonderful stuff—and at its best it can remove the transaction/performative nature of courtship/relationships and ground it all a bit more in genuine human connection. 

At the same time, our expectations and rituals around romance are still largely connected to those ancient, gender-specific models, so there's some friction. Many women still want to be "courted" in some fashion, while some men feel the way @Kwothe28 articulated: annoyed that the investment is riskier in a less patriarchal world (while maybe not taking into account such matters like women spending much more on clothing/make-up than men pay for dinner). Other men, meanwhile, may be plagued by a kind of sensitivity paralysis—worried that, say, paying for a meal or some other gesture would come across as retrograde, offensive, or trigger a is-he-playing-me spiral.

In both cases, for different reasons, such dudes may opt for the "hang out" route. 

All that said, in my experience, and in my age group—I'm 44 and my single friends range from 30-50ish—I wouldn't say there's an enormous lack of courtship. The single men I know still pay for the bulk of early outings, as I did when I was single. There are flowers, small gifts, cute notes, though also plenty of casual hangs and cocktails and sex had without clear definitions of what's what. If there's a difference it's that this all starts to go both ways a bit sooner and often settles in a way that's more reflective of income disparity than maintaining gender roles. 

Anyhow, per the questions of...

5 hours ago, yogacat said:

How can we be more cognizant of this and cultivate more meaningful relationships?

Do you think the lack of courting has changed the way men and women approach dating?

...I think in an ideal world we can dispense with the nonsense of a "honeymoon period" or "courtship period," at least in terms of a period of the man "trying to win" the affection of the woman,  and instead just focus on connection, respect, curiosity, being yourself and seeing how successfully you can keep being that alongside someone else. Easier said than done, and lord knows everything moving to the screen doesn't help that. But the optimist in me sees the present—and the question here—as a kind of awkward phase of growing pains while we dispense with one set of rules and expectations and find ways to create new ones. 

 

[Capricorn3]

4 hours ago, smackie9 said:

Part of it is because of technology. The access to social media that shows the unrealistic expectation of appearance, bad dating advice, also texting/IM that has caused a generation or two to not know how to socialize in person.

The next part is because how they were raised. Don't know proper manners, taught that everyone wins even with no effort (trophy generation) so no such thing as putting your best foot forward/make an effort, such fear of failure because they have never learned to cope with it, no real life experience, etc. It's created a hot mess of uncertain, cowering idiots lol. They were never taught survival skills or how to be a functioning adult whatsoever. So that's why people flake, waffle, dodge, lack any effort, show selfish behavior in larger numbers today. All I can say is thank god I am not single. lol

Brilliant post Smackie! 👍

Actually, really great posts by all above.

[Batya33]

In the early 90s I had a couple of dates with a guy - we were in our mid-late 20s - he said -light heartedly - so funny- "my theory is - you meet, have sex right away - and do all the fancy dinners and flowers after the 5th date or so" (not verbatim -but almost!).  LOL.  No we didn't but he had  great point.

[boltnrun]

Does that actually work? My friend who had sex with guys on the first "date" never heard from them again. I know this happened to her many times. 

[yogacat]

14 hours ago, smackie9 said:

Part of it is because of technology. The access to social media that shows the unrealistic expectation of appearance, bad dating advice, also texting/IM that has caused a generation or two to not know how to socialize in person.

The next part is because how they were raised. Don't know proper manners, taught that everyone wins even with no effort (trophy generation) so no such thing as putting your best foot forward/make an effort, such fear of failure because they have never learned to cope with it, no real life experience, etc. It's created a hot mess of uncertain, cowering idiots lol. They were never taught survival skills or how to be a functioning adult whatsoever. So that's why people flake, waffle, dodge, lack any effort, show selfish behavior in larger numbers today. All I can say is thank god I am not single. lol

Yes. Texting, for instance, is not "courting."

No official study but something I've wondered if a man that has become extremely unhealthy and tend to lose their desires when they've reached a certain level of unhealthiness; from there their physiological and psychological need to nourish, support and reproduce dies. 

Could be environmental factors or excess porn usage where a particular man might tend to become more sedentary which in turn leads to lower testosterone and thus less drive and fire to pursue women? Alright, that might be a stretch even in my opinion, plus I know extremely unhealthy people with a strong drive to pursue and court women. There has to be other factors at play. 

Another reason could be men have seen bad behavior get rewarded. Where he spends all this time and resources courting a woman and waits for intimacy only to hear or find out that she went and slept with another guy the next day that did 0% or bare minimum or gets into a relationship with another guy.

Not that there is anything wrong with what the woman chose or that sex is expected but I can def see how that can be discouraging. So that's probably a small percentage of it but it definitely can happen.

But this shouldn't be the generalization.

[Coily]

Well this is going to bee a hoot of a conversation!!

There have been studies out there (Social Science and Medicine Journal) that state somewhere approaching 29-30% of single men under 30 haven’t approached a woman for a date in years. With 1 in 3 men 18-24 not having any sexual activity in about a year (IU study 2020), it’s not a simple discussion. But I’ll throw caution to the wind.

The impetus for dating has in the last 30 years (probably more) has taken a nose dive from my observation. I noticed a lot of posters here are jumping back to the talking point of money/fiscal security, but I think that’s a bit misguided. It’s the expectations around money, it’s no longer about getting established as fiscally secure for a couple; it’s this very materialistic expenditure mindset. No longer are people focused on escaping want, it’s globetrotting and frivolous stuff.

There is also a shift in many unsuccessful dating dynamics, where women are perceived as trying to compete with their man inside the relationship. There is less about being complimentary toward each other, and who can out do the other. A majority of men don’t care to act like they are in a workplace 24/7, a GF or wife shouldn’t be conflated with middle management.

Also, most men really don’t give a rip about a woman’s career. “Oh, you’re a world famous astrophysicist?  Are you cute, laugh at my dumb jokes, and are a kind soul?” That’s the basic man’s mindset. Where women still give the impression they want to check your budget.

Then there is the darker aspect in dating, men are afraid of false accusations of sexual impropriety (which are  rare); but it’s a huge specter in approaching women. Where women can justifiably say they are concerned about such vile actions; men could think they had a great date mutual attraction and then get blind sided. It’s rare, but when it does happen it’s very public and difficult to escape. I would also point to a lot of social media flaps where a man is accused of leering at a woman, and she makes a deal out of it; when the guy in question is texting his wife or something genuinely innocent.

Furthermore as Seraphim pointed out “I think men have been told back off , go away, we are strong women we don’t need you . So men don’t bother . They don’t see a reason to if they are going to be told to back off.” You can only read so many dating profiles with “I’m a strong independent woman, my kids are my whole world; I don’t need you, but let’s be travel buddies (you pay)” for the dating well to be poisoned.

Throw in the prevalence of “No fault divorce” which has a negative perception among men as they won’t get a fair shake in divorce proceedings. I don’t know the validity of that concern, but it’s bandied about regularly as why some men are commitment averse.

I’m sure someone will Wonder if I’m just here woman bashing, no. Not at all. I’m just laying some ground work from some men’s perspective to my bigger point. Dating and courtship is broken, because our little lizard brains are risk averse and the mechanisms humans have built over generations have disappeared in a very short period of time (about 60-70 years).

So what’s changed beyond the risk/reward part of dating?

Atomization of personal interactions. I noticed back in the mid 2000s with the iPods that it was more difficult to just be polite to strangers. I remember back on a University campus, a woman dropped on of her text books while plugged in, and yelled at me for catching up to give it back to her. She was just oblivious. Now with the prevalence of texting, people don’t interact with those around them as much; which leads to fewer chance meetings and fewer social skills for a lot of people.

Throw in the pessimistic view that someone is just out to get you for nefarious purposes all the time, leads to low trust societies that make meeting new people even more difficult for everyone. Making even first meetings in public places nerve wracking for a lot of people. There’s a comic about a man who is out for a jog, and he and a woman near by are both getting paranoid about the other, until they both panic and run head long into each other.

On the topic of atomization, there are few social events that bring disparate elements of communities together like there had been in the past. It’s all very niche now, so people are unlikely to encounter someone new they can be introduced to. It’s rarer to meet the same group of people at any given event, like it was a few decades ago; rare still where any of these people know each other or are willing to introduce single friends.

I wouldn’t say this is purely technology driven, more that technology has made it easier for us to not feel as lonely as when we are alone. So people can retreat into echo chambers more easily than ever before; limiting new ideas and more importantly new people (some of whom they could date).

The super traditional mindset lingers that men have to do all the initial work to pursue a woman, that if they are interested a man will ask a “Strong an independent woman, who don’t need no man” on a date. While at the same time women are told they can do everything, BUT ask a man on a date. It’s mixed messaging for both sexes, and I think leads to a lot of confusion and missed opportunities.

Rejection has also changed quite a bit. It didn’t used to lead to massive social media posts, where a guy can get labeled “Creepy” if she’s not into him, and it becomes a branded shame on his reputation. Or a woman can be rejected and she’s branded as desperate. It’s not as much of a private matter as it used to be.

Also culturally there is less value in loyalty in a relationship, people are viewed as disposable and interchangeable, a product as it were. This is beyond dating apps, there is a longer standing attitude that if someone isn’t 100% perfect all the time, that you can find someone else just on a whim. There is little investment between partners like there used to be in the long ago. Which circles back to the competition vs complimentary aspects of many current relationships.

There’s more rattling around in my head on this, but this dissertation is probably enough for now.

[Coily]

5 minutes ago, yogacat said:

Yes. Texting, for instance, is not "courting."

No official study but something I've wondered if a man that has become extremely unhealthy and tend to lose their desires when they've reached a certain level of unhealthiness; from there their physiological and psychological need to nourish, support and reproduce dies. 

Could be environmental factors or excess porn usage where a particular man might tend to become more sedentary which in turn leads to lower testosterone and thus less drive and fire to pursue women? Alright, that might be a stretch even in my opinion, plus I know extremely unhealthy people with a strong drive to pursue and court women. There has to be other factors at play. 

Another reason could be men have seen bad behavior get rewarded. Where he spends all this time courting a woman and wait for intimacy only to hear or find out that she went and slept with another guy the next day. So that's probably a small percentage of it but it definitely can happen.

But this shouldn't be the generalization.

Unpopular opinion, I think a lot of men when they learn that there is no opportunity for them to be fathers, there is a fire that dies. I know for me, when I start dating a woman the option to have a child of my own is a high priority. It's not, I must have a child; but more along the lines of; "I'm not going to die on that hill after crawling through lava, when I could just do my own thing for me."

I think that's more of a factor than general health, I know quite a few Gym Bros who are just done with dating. They just have no desire to get piles of risk and little reward.

I do agree with the preponderance of seeing bad behavior rewarded. Probably why some guys get hung up on body count?

[Starlight925]

I've asked my 20-something year-old niece this question, as she & her adorable friends are all dateless.  These are college educated girls at the peak of their lives, yet all the guys want to do is play video games and watch porn.

In group pictures, they all look like models living the times of their lives, but not one has had a guy ask them out in a long time, many, never.

The girls have to be the aggressors if they want a guy to do anything, and even then, all they get are "meh" responses.  

Studies are showing testosterone rates have dropped significantly in the past 20-30 years.  Japan has a serious birthrate problem. 

This could largely be due to anything from the garbage that gets sprayed on our food to our indoor lifestyles full of screens, EMF, and radiation.

 

[Coily]

3 hours ago, Batya33 said:

In the early 90s I had a couple of dates with a guy - we were in our mid-late 20s - he said -light heartedly - so funny- "my theory is - you meet, have sex right away - and do all the fancy dinners and flowers after the 5th date or so" (not verbatim -but almost!).  LOL.  No we didn't but he had  great point.

In a sense I can kind of respect that, save the expensive stuff until after there is some known chemistry. Lol Would never fly.

[smackie9]

43 minutes ago, Starlight925 said:

I've asked my 20-something year-old niece this question, as she & her adorable friends are all dateless.  These are college educated girls at the peak of their lives, yet all the guys want to do is play video games and watch porn.

In group pictures, they all look like models living the times of their lives, but not one has had a guy ask them out in a long time, many, never.

The girls have to be the aggressors if they want a guy to do anything, and even then, all they get are "meh" responses.  

Studies are showing testosterone rates have dropped significantly in the past 20-30 years.  Japan has a serious birthrate problem. 

This could largely be due to anything from the garbage that gets sprayed on our food to our indoor lifestyles full of screens, EMF, and radiation.

 

My friend met her husband in a game she was playing(wow)....so there's still hope lol. 

[Wiseman2]

The term courting does evoke a sort of old fashioned concept.

 

[smackie9]

Tom Licus, if anyone who knows him, is a radio host that some female groups proclaimed he gave misogynistic advice to men. He said....men don't spend over 15-20 bucks on a first/second date. I have to agree on that, men don't need to spend any more than that. Now if men follow this rule and still think they are getting ripped off, maybe they should look at their attitude about coping with failure. They need to stop acting like a bunch of big babies and suck it up. Women too...they need to just get over it if the guy slows or stops contacting them. After reading so many posts lately...omg, there is so much time spend whining, rather than just dropping it, and getting on with life. 

[smackie9]

11 hours ago, Capricorn3 said:

Brilliant post Smackie! 👍

Actually, really great posts by all above.

TY! so kind to say...and yes I agree the posts do have great insight. Everyone's input has been very interesting. 

[boltnrun]

I think it's important to teach (and learn) what I call Mick Jagger wisdom..."you can't always get what you want". 

"But I WANT him/her!!" and refusing to accept that sometimes the person we like just doesn't like us back is so off putting and a huge time waster. Yes, it's disappointing. Sure, sometimes it hurts. But we need to dust ourselves off and get back on the horse. 

As for "courting"...I remember being advised to showcase what a good cook I am to entice a man to want to marry me 😆. That was drilled in so much (along with how important it is to create nourishing meals for children) that I still have a knee-jerk negative reaction whenever someone says they "can't" cook. (Yes, you can. Anyone can. You just choose not to). I wonder if men find a woman who's a good cook enticing. 

[Coily]

41 minutes ago, smackie9 said:

Tom Licus, if anyone who knows him, is a radio host that some female groups proclaimed he gave misogynistic advice to men. He said....men don't spend over 15-20 bucks on a first/second date. I have to agree on that, men don't need to spend any more than that. Now if men follow this rule and still think they are getting ripped off, maybe they should look at their attitude about coping with failure. They need to stop acting like a bunch of big babies and suck it up. Women too...they need to just get over it if the guy slows or stops contacting them. After reading so many posts lately...omg, there is so much time spend whining, rather than just dropping it, and getting on with life. 

Trying to figure out how anyone would consider his advice Misogynistic? It makes sense to not set a falsely high standards for either party on a date. The woman I'm currently seeing our first date was bowling, then to a local burger place. Second was just a few drinks and chatting, guess I need to break the bad news to her! LOL

I think you are getting at something about the accepting rejection/failure, I don't know if it's generational or cultural right now; but there is an abysmal attitude towards not being the main character in life. I remember one poster on here talking about looks and how they or whoever they were into should get away with more bad choices due to being "hot."