Modern Dating: The Evolution of Courtship for Men and Women

[Coily]

36 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

As for "courting"...I remember being advised to showcase what a good cook I am to entice a man to want to marry me 😆. That was drilled in so much (along with how important it is to create nourishing meals for children) that I still have a knee-jerk negative reaction whenever someone says they "can't" cook. (Yes, you can. Anyone can. You just choose not to). I wonder if men find a woman who's a good cook enticing. 

In this day an age, if a woman can cook she has my attention. (Though I'm willing to bet I'm better, but I have skills!). For me it comes down to attitude around being complimentary. If a woman can/is willing to cook a meal for us, I'm far more likely to be willing to rebuild the deck or rebuild her car's engine.

[mylolita]

21 hours ago, Seraphim said:

I think men have been told back off , go away, we are strong women we don’t need you . So men don’t bother . They don’t see a reason to if they are going to be told to back off. 

A-flippin-men Seraphim! 
 

I read somewhere once, an interesting article on the “new role” for women, but this is leaving men “directionless and role-less”. 
 

What is exactly a man’s role now? We used to know, it was all very clear cut. Now, it’s…? What is it? If we don’t exactly know, how can we expect the modern man and especially the young man to have any idea? Masses of rudderless men not daring to be slightly masculine for fear of offending, but if they’re too feminine no one wants them, and everything inbetween seems awkward and wrong as well. 
 

As imperfect as traditional roles are, at least you can say everyone knew where they stood, and the confusion was cut out.

 

People tend to live longer with purpose and when they have a job to do. Men are dying a slow death of uselessness and berating. I think women are also lamenting this question. Are we still supposed to be mothers? And if so, “how much?” How much “career?” How much housework? How much housework do I do? How much does he do? Because full time motherhood is not the norm anymore and also, it’s pretty frowned upon by other women, or feminist culture. And men now are told they are oppressive if they say they’d support a housewife.
 

It’s all mixed up. I think the same is going on in the dating world. Men are so unsure of their role, offending, etc. They have lost their balls, they dare not approach! Women have become massively cocky and bold - the rude rejections, the selfies, the every other 20-something is an unstable model or an influencer. What does that do for people’s big headed self esteem? I think it makes them rude and self centred and unaccepting of the “average” guy with his average advances. 

 

For example, some women see men insisting on paying for the date as a red flag. Other women say it’s a red flag if they don’t. Some women feel tepid about splitting the bill and some are offended if they don’t automatically presume it split. This is before the question of a goodnight kiss or not! It’s a bloomin’ minefield @yogacat!

 

No wonder men are in a station less flap of silent desperation regarding dating. Half of them dare not even make the first move, and, well, it makes total sense, surely? In this climate? 
 

Everything has to be super duper squeaky perfect equal now. Perfection doesn’t exist, and everyone’s efforts are falling flat. 
 

No one knows what to do or how to do it! 
 

x

 

PS - been out the dating world for 16 years now and only had 3 dates at 18 then was in a relationship with my now husband, so I can’t comment on dating culture now or ever really, but this is through cultural climate observation! And the stories from friends! 

[boltnrun]

17 minutes ago, Coily said:

In this day an age, if a woman can cook she has my attention. (Though I'm willing to bet I'm better, but I have skills!). For me it comes down to attitude around being complimentary. If a woman can/is willing to cook a meal for us, I'm far more likely to be willing to rebuild the deck or rebuild her car's engine.

What if she rebuilds the engine?

One of my former coworkers was telling me about the alternator in her car going out. So she went to the parts store, bought the appropriate part, removed the one that wasn't working and installed the new one. Bingo! Problem solved. She said her dad taught her and her sister how to work on their own cars because he said (correctly) that most of the cost of car repairs is the labor, so he wanted them to be able to just do it themselves.

I was in a relationship with a man and at one point he battery in my car went out. So I bought a new one and replaced it (I'm sure you know how easy it is to do). Well, this guy got all bent out of shape. He's the man, he said, and I should have let him do it. So when I got a different car and that car's battery went dead, he bought a new one and installed it. But he did it incorrectly (forgot to reinstall the pan it sat on) so he had to uninstall it and reinstall it. He was embarrassed and I was annoyed. Just let me do it next time, wanker! 

My (female) cousin worked at a car repair shop, doing actual mechanic work (she wasn't the secretary). Some men found that off-putting. Weird, huh?

And some men found it a turn on that I can drive stick shift. Also weird! 

[mylolita]

I think @boltnrun your ex may have been frustrated because in my experience, men want to be useful, help, and “save the day”. 
 

I’ve pretended I can’t do something or can’t hold something or don’t know something just to make my husband or another guy feel useful. I have to say it really works. Most men adore holding the door open for you, carrying your heavy bags, etc. My son insists on carrying my heaviest shopping bags (he’s 6) or lifting his sisters into the pram when they are capable of doing it themselves. I encourage and foster this in him. It’s a hinderance often, his “small kid help”, but he’s practising being a “man” - and this is essential! And kind of a forgotten thing! 
 

x

[boltnrun]

I only saw him on weekends due to work, distance and child custody. I couldn't wait for the weekend for him to come replace the battery as I had to get to work, take my son to activities, etc. It would have been impractical for me to wait for him.

And I feel differently about that anyway. 

[Batya33]

3 hours ago, boltnrun said:

Does that actually work? My friend who had sex with guys on the first "date" never heard from them again. I know this happened to her many times. 

He was joking.  Generally I don't think so.  I never did.

[boltnrun]

4 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

He was joking.  Generally I don't think so.  I never did.

A former coworker told me I should always have sex with a guy on the first date. That way, she said, I would know right away if he was good in bed and if he wasn't I wouldn't waste anymore time dating him. 

😆🙄

[Coily]

21 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

What if she rebuilds the engine?

Then I may have found the perfect woman?

Then again one of my early GFs chased me down in a parking lot because we had the same make and model of car. We did some street racing to bond. But I had factory shop manuals, and that melted her heart for a while.

Also I'm the kind of guy who finds a woman who drives manual a turn on. Usually a sign of life competence, and plays into my old racing days when I was a navigator helping a female driver secure her first regional championship.

 

[mylolita]

2 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

A former coworker told me I should always have sex with a guy on the first date. That way, she said, I would know right away if he was good in bed and if he wasn't I wouldn't waste anymore time dating him. 

😆🙄

You can tell by the kiss anyway 🤭 

 

 

[Batya33]

2 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

A former coworker told me I should always have sex with a guy on the first date. That way, she said, I would know right away if he was good in bed and if he wasn't I wouldn't waste anymore time dating him. 

😆🙄

Yes I had friends like that.  But I knew I couldn't know that unless we were serious and in love with strong potential for marriage -for me I mean -others feel differently. 

[mylolita]

1 minute ago, Coily said:

Then I may have found the perfect woman?

Then again one of my early GFs chased me down in a parking lot because we had the same make and model of car. We did some street racing to bond. But I had factory shop manuals, and that melted her heart for a while.

Also I'm the kind of guy who finds a woman who drives manual a turn on. Usually a sign of life competence, and plays into my old racing days when I was a navigator helping a female driver secure her first regional championship.

 

I’m forgetting that America is probably mostly automatics and over here it’s the opposite and you learn to drive at first as we call it in a “manual” and then get an automatic if you want an easy, stately kind of luxurious car. 
 

Everyone can drive manually here pretty much in the UK but I forget it’s a thing! 
 

Our old car was an automatic but had flappy pedal manual gear change at the wheel because it was a sporty thing and it was nice to alternate and switch it into sport if you got a nice, quiet, 1am stretch of road! 
 

My eyes are opened culturally once again 🤣

[Coily]

2 minutes ago, mylolita said:

I’m forgetting that America is probably mostly automatics and over here it’s the opposite and you learn to drive at first as we call it in a “manual” and then get an automatic if you want an easy, stately kind of luxurious car. 
 

Everyone can drive manually here pretty much in the UK but I forget it’s a thing! 
 

Our old car was an automatic but had flappy pedal manual gear change at the wheel because it was a sporty thing and it was nice to alternate and switch it into sport if you got a nice, quiet, 1am stretch of road! 
 

My eyes are opened culturally once again 🤣

Didn't used to be that way, then the 90s shifted everything over; I hate it...

When I was in the UK they kept trying to rent me an automatic. I was unpleasant after the first two times. LOL

[mylolita]

1 minute ago, Coily said:

Didn't used to be that way, then the 90s shifted everything over; I hate it...

When I was in the UK they kept trying to rent me an automatic. I was unpleasant after the first two times. LOL

INTERESTING! 
 

Because everyone pretty much drives manual here unless you have a “fancy” car and move up in the world! Once you go from your usual manual to an automatic, it’s like, ooooooo! So you drive an automatic?! 
 

My Dad actually asked me what it’s like to drive an automatic and I said Dad, it’s beyond easy a child could do it, and I say wanna go? And he wouldn’t because he was too scared - LOL! There is a weird fear here in the UK of the automatic. Most people have never drove one! 
 

Sorry to go off track! I forget often this site is pretty much completely American and my eyes are opened culturally from time to time! 
 

Apologies, off topic, Queen 🤣

 

x

[boltnrun]

2 minutes ago, Coily said:

Didn't used to be that way, then the 90s shifted everything over; I hate it...

When I was in the UK they kept trying to rent me an automatic. I was unpleasant after the first two times. LOL

I see what you did there 😉

I always preferred stick shift. That way I get to decide when the transmission shifted, not some computer. My current car is an automatic but while it's easy to drive it's a bit boring. 

[Batya33]

I guess my experience was unusual -my husband very traditionally courted me and cared a great deal about why I chose my career -first question he asked me basically on our first date in 1995.  He told me it was very important to him that a future spouse have a career and have passion for it.  I never looked for lots of wealth -I looked for great work ethic/ambitious and financially stable.  I offered the same (by my 20s).  I happily wore both relationship hats and professional hats so to speak.  I was very independent and didn't need  the whole I am Woman Hear Me Roar stuff in my personal relationships.  Nor did I need to be wined/dined/pampered including because I could do that for myself if I felt like it.  

[mylolita]

1 minute ago, boltnrun said:

I see what you did there 😉

I always preferred stick shift. That way I get to decide when the transmission shifted, not some computer. My current car is an automatic but while it's easy to drive it's a bit boring. 

With my automatic you can get into the computer and change the point of shift - and how many revs etc you can be very geeky, or you can flip it into manual and have both ways.

 

I think automatic cars make bad drivers better, and frustrate people who like the drive.

 

Automatics for me have been great for drinking and eating at the same time - HA! Easier to do that than trying to change gears up and down with your right hand and balance your wheel and a cappuccino in your other! 
 

x

[boltnrun]

I was not able to eat an ice cream cone while driving stick shift. I tried.

[Seraphim]

1 hour ago, mylolita said:

A-flippin-men Seraphim! 
 

I read somewhere once, an interesting article on the “new role” for women, but this is leaving men “directionless and role-less”. 
 

What is exactly a man’s role now? We used to know, it was all very clear cut. Now, it’s…? What is it? If we don’t exactly know, how can we expect the modern man and especially the young man to have any idea? Masses of rudderless men not daring to be slightly masculine for fear of offending, but if they’re too feminine no one wants them, and everything inbetween seems awkward and wrong as well. 
 

As imperfect as traditional roles are, at least you can say everyone knew where they stood, and the confusion was cut out.

 

People tend to live longer with purpose and when they have a job to do. Men are dying a slow death of uselessness and berating. I think women are also lamenting this question. Are we still supposed to be mothers? And if so, “how much?” How much “career?” How much housework? How much housework do I do? How much does he do? Because full time motherhood is not the norm anymore and also, it’s pretty frowned upon by other women, or feminist culture. And men now are told they are oppressive if they say they’d support a housewife.
 

It’s all mixed up. I think the same is going on in the dating world. Men are so unsure of their role, offending, etc. They have lost their balls, they dare not approach! Women have become massively cocky and bold - the rude rejections, the selfies, the every other 20-something is an unstable model or an influencer. What does that do for people’s big headed self esteem? I think it makes them rude and self centred and unaccepting of the “average” guy with his average advances. 

 

For example, some women see men insisting on paying for the date as a red flag. Other women say it’s a red flag if they don’t. Some women feel tepid about splitting the bill and some are offended if they don’t automatically presume it split. This is before the question of a goodnight kiss or not! It’s a bloomin’ minefield @yogacat!

 

No wonder men are in a station less flap of silent desperation regarding dating. Half of them dare not even make the first move, and, well, it makes total sense, surely? In this climate? 
 

Everything has to be super duper squeaky perfect equal now. Perfection doesn’t exist, and everyone’s efforts are falling flat. 
 

No one knows what to do or how to do it! 
 

x

 

PS - been out the dating world for 16 years now and only had 3 dates at 18 then was in a relationship with my now husband, so I can’t comment on dating culture now or ever really, but this is through cultural climate observation! And the stories from friends! 

Yup, my son says he isn’t dating because the new kind of feminist he isn’t interested in their values. My generation of feminist had better values he says. They wanted equality and equity it wasn’t about putting men down. 
My husband barely opens his mouth at work because someone is always mortally offended and my husband is one of the most mild mannered diplomatic man there is. So if HE feels that there is a massive issue it is an issue . 

[Wiseman2]

22 hours ago, yogacat said:

 some men no longer feel the need to court women. Instead, the norm is to hang out and "chill" at someone's house or go to a bar for drinks. 

Courting and wining and dining are two different things. 

  Courting is showing an interest. Animals have courting rituals. Maybe a song and dance or displays. Texting might be the equivalent of a birdsong.

Wining and dining is a more intensive form of courting. Maybe bringing you a worm to prove you're a good provider. 

Wining and dining is not practical with OLD. Nobody needs to provide a fancy romantic dinner on a first meeting. 

Courting will always be around, but wining and dining is  changing for social economic and practical reasons. 

Be glad you're not a praying mantis and have your head eaten off as part of courting..

 

[Seraphim]

58 minutes ago, mylolita said:

I’m forgetting that America is probably mostly automatics and over here it’s the opposite and you learn to drive at first as we call it in a “manual” and then get an automatic if you want an easy, stately kind of luxurious car. 
 

Everyone can drive manually here pretty much in the UK but I forget it’s a thing! 
 

Our old car was an automatic but had flappy pedal manual gear change at the wheel because it was a sporty thing and it was nice to alternate and switch it into sport if you got a nice, quiet, 1am stretch of road! 
 

My eyes are opened culturally once again 🤣

My husband drives standard and automatic because a lot of military vehicles are standard . I only drive automatic. 

[mylolita]

21 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

Yup, my son says he isn’t dating because the new kind of feminist he isn’t interested in their values. My generation of feminist had better values he says. They wanted equality and equity it wasn’t about putting men down. 
My husband barely opens his mouth at work because someone is always mortally offended and my husband is one of the most mild mannered diplomatic man there is. So if HE feels that there is a massive issue it is an issue . 

This is so insightful Seraphim as I get the impression your son and your husband are kind and pure hearted! 
 

My husband has been accused of being a chauvinist quite a few times! They don’t think that I may have arranged our situation and agreed to it as well! One of my friends asked in all seriousness,  very concerned, “But you are allowed to work, if you wanted too?” 
 

The answer is OF COURSE! 
 

It’s about choice! And I’ve felt very privileged to be in a financial place most of my adult life to have had that choice of whether to work or not - I realise not many people have that luxury, and I never take it for granted. But people view it as oppressive, when I am extremely free, ironically! Freer than most, as I get to do exactly what I like! I would imagine that being the pinnacle of feminism but in my experience, apparently it’s not! 
 

I wonder about dating and relationship not just for my son in the future but actually, for my girls. They no longer have the option of staying home and enjoying their potential future babies, breastfeeding for a year or two, because I imagine unless they marry someone very wealthy and also progressive with alternative views, they will be expected to wait along time for children for sake of career and education first, or go straight back into a career and give their children to early child care and nurseries. 
 

The dating etiquette now seems to be nearly totally online as well as others have said. And also others have said, the face to face social skills are dwindling because of this? I see this in my own generation - even a simple and straight forward example of this is, no one calls anyone anymore. Everyone prefers texts. And they ignore them as well, leave them unread for days. I’ve been guilty of this generational ignorance myself 🫢

 

I’ve heard of people texting to flirt, text to arrange a date, text/online initial meet either through apps or somewhere else online? I don’t know. I don’t see much good in that, and more choice, global choice, isn’t always a good thing! It causes indecision and grass is greener! 
 

x

 

 

[mylolita]

4 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

My husband drives standard and automatic because a lot of military vehicles are standard . I only drive automatic. 

Seraphim this is also true in the UK - if you have been in the army and had the general run around on army vehicles, you no longer need a separate license for heavy goods vehicles and lorries like normal people would here! 
 

A lot of ex army guys sometimes come out the army and go straight into truck/lorry driving for a living, without having the take extra driving exams like you do here in the UK.

 

I am so off topic again 🫡🤣

 

x

[Seraphim]

4 minutes ago, mylolita said:

This is so insightful Seraphim as I get the impression your son and your husband are kind and pure hearted! 
 

My husband has been accused of being a chauvinist quite a few times! They don’t think that I may have arranged our situation and agreed to it as well! One of my friends asked in all seriousness,  wry concerned, “But you are allowed to work, if you wanted too?” 
 

The answer is OF COURSE! 
 

It’s about choice! And I’ve felt very privileged to be in a financial place most of my adult life to have had that choice of whether to work or not - I realise not many people have that luxury, and I never take it for granted. But people view it as oppressive, when I am extremely free, ironically! Freer than most, as I get to do exactly what I like! I would imagine that being the pinnacle of feminism but in my experience, apparently it’s not! 
 

I wonder about dating and relationship ships not just for my son in the future but actually, for my girls. They no longer have the option of staying home and enjoying their potential future babies, breastfeeding for a year or two, because I imagine unless they marry someone very wealthy and also progressive with alternative views, they will be expected to wait along time for children, or go straight into a career and give their children to early child care and nurseries. 
 

The dating etiquette now seems to be nearly totally online as well as others have said. And also others have said, the face to face social skills are dwindling because of this? I see this in my own generation - even a simple and straight forward example of this is, no one calls anyone anymore. Everyone prefers texts. And they ignore them as well, leave them unread for days. I’ve been guilty of this generational ignorance myself 🫢

 

I’ve heard of people texting to flirt, text to arrange a date, text/online initial meet either through apps or somewhere else online? I don’t know. I don’t see much good in that, and more choice, global choice, isn’t always a good thing! It causes indecision and grass is greener! 
 

x

 

 

I am glad I found someone before all this crazy crap for sure . 

[kim42]

I think men are probably more lazy than some decades ago. They can just download a dating app and don't need to put much effort because they can find another girl on this app quickly.

I mean, some guys put very low effort even in the conversations - lots of spelling mistakes, some of them can't even type one meaningful sentence, it's just 'lol' and 'omg'.

[mylolita]

Just now, kim42 said:

I think man are probably more lazy than some decades ago. They can just download a dating app and don't need to put much effort because they can find another girl on this app quickly.

I mean, some guys put very low effort even in the conversations - lots of spelling mistakes, some of them can't even type one meaningful sentence, it's just 'lol' and 'omg'.

Oh dear! 
 

x