Modern Dating: The Evolution of Courtship for Men and Women

[Coily]

3 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Dating is courting. But wining and dining is more "traditional" and generally for the purpose of displaying being able to be a good provider. Dating is not synonymous with hookup culture, just as "courting" is not synonymous with wining and dining.  

 

I dub thee Wrongman.

[Cherylyn]

In the old days,  courting was considered dating for a short period,  usually asking the woman's father for her hand in marriage,  setting the marriage date,  getting married and often times,  building a family life after that. 

Why are men less interested in taking on the traditional role of courting in modern times?  Because these are modern times.  Men are no longer sole providers for women.  Women have more economic muscle nowadays.  They're financially strong and independent.  They don't have to get married.  They don't need a man in order to survive.  Men don't have to get married to provide for her.  If a woman "gets into trouble" as they used to say,  there's prevention for that (birth control) and often times,  terminating the pregnancy.  In these modern times,  traditions and traditional roles no longer apply for many men and women anymore because there are more choices.  

Personally,  I'm a mix of both only due to my own experience.  My husband and I dated,  he proposed in less than a year of dating and we were married the following year.  We worked hard,  saved our money diligently,  bought the first of our several houses,  we have two sons and went that route.  Fortunately,  economics are stable. 

In society,  it's a different world now.  There's more freedom of choice for women and hence,  for men as well. 

 

 

[rainbowsandroses]

What is the definition of "wining and dining"?  I ask this seriously.

Personally, I prefer a lively pub with good music, good eats and a low-key, casual atmosphere.  

The man typically pays but I may offer to pay the tip or a drink elsewhere.

Would that be considered wining and dining?  I literally cannot stand expensive high-end restaurants that require us to get all dolled up and decked out where the bill is astronomically high with mediocre food much of the time , which is what I always perceived wining and dining to be.

 

 

[Cherylyn]

Just now, rainbowsandroses said:

What is the definition of "wining and dining"?  I ask this seriously.

Personally, I prefer a lively pub with good music, good eats and a casual atmosphere.  

The man typically pays but I may offer to pay the tip or a drink elsewhere.

Would that be considered wining and dining?  I literally cannot stand expensive high-end restaurants that require us to get all dolled up and decked out where the bill is  astronomically high with mediocre food much of the time , which is what I always perceived wining and dining to be.

 

 

Wining and dining as in wooing in order to gain favoritism.  It's a figure of speech. 

[Coily]

3 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

What is the definition of "wining and dining"?  I ask this seriously.

Personally, I prefer a lively pub with good music, good eats and a low-key, casual atmosphere.  

The man typically pays but I may offer to pay the tip or a drink elsewhere.

Would that be considered wining and dining?  I literally cannot stand expensive high-end restaurants that require us to get all dolled up and decked out where the bill is astronomically high with mediocre food much of the time , which is what I always perceived wining and dining to be.

 

 

WnD is usually done for the explicit purpose of fiscal or social plumage. It's a facade that someone can afford the over priced meal.WnD really has little to do with trying to attract a mate, as much as it has to do with showing your social equals/better that you can keep up with the joneses. The terminal hell-loop of blind consumption.

[Coily]

4 minutes ago, Cherylyn said:

Wining and dining as in wooing in order to gain favoritism.  It's a figure of speech. 

It's not just wooing a potential mate, it can and does push out beyond the bounds of a relationship. To me, having grown up around "old money" WnD is a way to show that you are not just in the rat race of trying to become established.  it's a broad way of showing that you are an equal.

[Wiseman2]

7 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

. I prefer a lively pub with good music, good eats and a low-key, casual atmosphere.  

This is dating. Nothing hookup culture about it as implied. Wining and dining means expecting the man to put out because they're "traditional". 

[rainbowsandroses]

50 minutes ago, Cherylyn said:

Personally,  I'm a mix of both only due to my own experience. 

If I understand you correctly^^, I am the same @Cherylyn, a combination of old-fashioned and new-fashioned.  Old-fashioned in the sense I do prefer a man to "lead" (for the most part) during early stages but new-fashioned in the sense I have no problem initiating something light and casual either.  I think there is a way for women to initiate that does not appear "aggressive" like she's chasing that men (at least the men I have dated) respond positively to.

Once we have been dating awhile and in a relationship, we both take turns initiating, texting/calling, making plans.

Not sure if this is old-fashioned or new-fashioned, but politeness and proper manners is definitely high on my list, I would say one of my few "must haves."  And proper grammar.  That includes how to structure a proper sentence is a text message as well!!   

 

[Wiseman2]

23 minutes ago, Coily said:

I dub thee Wrongman.

How stupid. Why derail the thread? 

[Cherylyn]

13 minutes ago, Coily said:

WnD is usually done for the explicit purpose of fiscal or social plumage. It's a facade that someone can afford the over priced meal.WnD really has little to do with trying to attract a mate, as much as it has to do with showing your social equals/better that you can keep up with the joneses. The terminal hell-loop of blind consumption.

Hmm,  I don't know about that.  In a comparable context,  it's akin to sales.  For example,  a salesman will wine and dine a potential client for a very possible,  long term business contract.  If successful,  there could be a realistic, hefty commission out of it. 

As for wining and dining towards marriage,  sure it could go in that direction but often times dining out whether take out meals or at more upscale restaurants,  many times,  it's out of enjoyment and trying various cuisines.  I can't speak for everyone but my husband and I enjoyed dining out frequently while we were dating and engaged.  Nowadays,  we'll dine out but not as often as before because we enjoy the taste of homemade food. 

A lot of times wining and dining isn't always with an end goal in mind.  It is enjoyable to be served and have someone else contend with dirty dishes and kitchen clean up.  There is no menu planning,  grocery shopping nor cooking either.  No fuss,  no muss.  It's convenient. 

[Coily]

Just now, Wiseman2 said:

How stupid. Why derail the thread? 

Balderdash. This thread will thrive quite well without specious redefinitions to run down concepts that a minority deem outdated. This has been a very thoughtful and illuminating conversation, amongst peers who are trying to elevate a concept of courtship.

[Coily]

4 minutes ago, Cherylyn said:

Hmm,  I don't know about that.  In a comparable context,  it's akin to sales.  For example,  a salesman will wine and dine a potential client for a very possible,  long term business contract.  If successful,  there could be a realistic, hefty commission out of it. 

As for wining and dining towards marriage,  sure it could go in that direction but often times dining out whether take out meals or at more upscale restaurants,  many times,  it's out of enjoyment and trying various cuisines.  I can't speak for everyone but my husband and I enjoyed dining out frequently while we were dating and engaged.  Nowadays,  we'll dine out but not as often as before because we enjoy the taste of homemade food. 

A lot of times wining and dining isn't always with an end goal in mind.  It is enjoyable to be served and have someone else contend with dirty dishes and kitchen clean up.  It's convenient. 

Courtship and dating is essentially sales. On that we can agree.

I would argue that your dear husband was courting you not wining and dining you. He had an idea about his end goal, marriage to you; and sold the product (himself) to you. Which any self respecting gent would do in pursuit of the love of his life.

i don't think getting into the weeds of meal prep is hwat I have in mind for this aspect of the conversation, but i won't deny it does have an effect.

[rainbowsandroses]

16 minutes ago, Cherylyn said:

Hmm,  I don't know about that.  In a comparable context,  it's akin to sales.  For example,  a salesman will wine and dine a potential client for a very possible,  long term business contract.  If successful,  there could be a realistic, hefty commission out of it. 

As for wining and dining towards marriage,  sure it could go in that direction but often times dining out whether take out meals or at more upscale restaurants,  many times,  it's out of enjoyment and trying various cuisines.  I can't speak for everyone but my husband and I enjoyed dining out frequently while we were dating and engaged.  Nowadays,  we'll dine out but not as often as before because we enjoy the taste of homemade food. 

A lot of times wining and dining isn't always with an end goal in mind.  It is enjoyable to be served and have someone else contend with dirty dishes and kitchen clean up.  It's convenient. 

That is a nice way of putting it, defining it.  I agree it can be for the enjoyment of getting out and sampling various cuisines without having to contend with dirty dishes, clean up and the like.

In my neck of the woods, we don't hear the phrase used much.  As @Wiseman2said, it's simply called "dating."   Even in what most consider to be high-end restaurants, everyone is still quite lowkey and casual (I'm in SoCal).

I actually do hear the phrase associated with pursuing a potential client OR even a potential employee for a high end position in a competitive market.

Shoot!  I have got to run out but this thread is so hot, one of the best in a long time!  Thank you to @yogacatfor creating it!!

I will have to check back tomorrow, nite everyone!  

 

[Cherylyn]

1 minute ago, Coily said:

Courtship and dating is essentially sales. On that we can agree.

I would argue that your dear husband was courting you not wining and dining you. He had an idea about his end goal, marriage to you; and sold the product (himself) to you. Which any self respecting gent would do in pursuit of the love of his life.

i don't think getting into the weeds of meal prep is hwat I have in mind for this aspect of the conversation, but i won't deny it does have an effect.

Actually,  the topic of marriage wasn't even up for discussion until we dated some more.  We both didn't want to get married.  Then the relationship blossomed as time marched on.  Therefore,  initially,  it wasn't courtship.  Thank you though,  @Coily for the kind words because it was very appreciated.

Courtship and dating has a different meaning throughout generations.  Courtship is usually marriage minded and serious towards a legally committed future.  Courtship is generally not prolonged. 

Dating has different definitions dependent upon whom you are going out with,  hanging out with,  chilling or whatever the preferred phrases are for individuals and couples.  Dating can be exclusive or not.  It really depends on what the individual and couples agree upon or in other times,  there can be a disagreement which will either alter the arrangement or they'll eventually decide to go their separate ways.

[DarkCh0c0]

I love this conversation so much that I had to log in to chip in! 😄

I'd like to add that courtship (in today's dating context) is less common, specially on OLD. A lot of people on OLD are expecting instant gratification. So instant gf/bf, instant sex, instant benefits, ect. Why court if you can get away with NOT doing so? It's easier and takes less efforts.

[mylolita]

6 hours ago, Coily said:

I think it could be a mix. Plus I think there is a bit of an ego for guys when competitive about their sexual prowess.

Oscar Wilde once said, 

 

“Men always want to be a woman’s first love. That is their clumsy vanity. We women have a more subtle instinct about these things. What women like is to be a man’s last romance!”

 

x

[mylolita]

6 hours ago, boltnrun said:

My (ex) husband bought me a car when I was too poor to buy one for myself.  And this was when we were just BF/GF, not even engaged.

I would consider that being "court-like".  Because he cared enough to want to help me.  Sure, some might say he did it to keep the booty coming.  But I don't think so.

Yes! 
 

My husband before we were married bought me my first car! And it’s been a trend in our marriage which sounds very fancy but has been very practical. 
 

x

[mylolita]

My Dad who is 65 still and always has used the word “courting”! You hear it used by the older generation here in the UK all the time! It’s painfully old fashioned and I’ve never heard anyone under 50 use it here in the UK! 

 

Over here it just means “old fashioned taking someone out with the view to marry” and always has serious and romantic connotations. You wouldn’t, for example, “court” multiple women. I mean, you could but, you’d be making multiple serious romantic advances and you’d be making a triviality of the meaning of the word! 
 

To court implies a mating ritual! Courting to me summons up yes, all those traditional ways of wooing - flowers, walks out, intimidate conversations; and yes, meals. I suppose there’s no getting around that it’s still expected by most women and especially by the 3rd date or, if the man is serious.

 

I will say though that, if a man was to lead on a first date with a big, extravagant meal in a fancy restaurant, showering the woman with an expensive bouquet or other gifts, I think this would be taken negatively by a lot of women. I think the implication and pressure may be felt by some women to put out, or that something is expected. Almost being “bought!” 
 

I think a lot of first dates to me are surely about really getting to know the person and making a decision from that point whether to carry on? I would think you need somewhere quiet where you can focus one on one, and for the setting to be romantic and slightly private but not overly extravagant to add pressure or extra nerves because of expectation? 
 

I remember our first date back when was just to a small country bar. My husband had arranged for us to go see a band an hour after, but we never went because we got talking too much and were there until the bar staff swept us out with the broom! 
 

Second date was a walk by the river where he lived and the third date was a really nice meal at a country restaurant out in the sticks. From then after we were boyfriend and girlfriend but I was still courted I’d say until we moved in together quite soon after. I will also add that; a honeymoon period is so varied between couples. I always honestly say ours never ended, it really didn’t! And I used to wait; 3 years in, for this massive drop and for the mundane sluggishness to start, but it never lasted more than a week or two and we were back like teenagers again! 
 

I think all relationships that last must be based on absolutely intoxicating, deep, soul mate like love, for them to last. There also needs to be this unique bonding - a meeting of minds and hearts. You need to find your ying to your yang. I agree with @ShySoulin that, you can decipher this pretty quickly without even needing to date. You know when a connection like that hits you because it is a once in a lifetime, maybe twice in a lifetime thing. A very, very lucky thing. Magic, really, a miracle. And why it is so sought after and celebrated is obvious to all! 
 

Also here in the UK the semantics and cultural connotations are different I have found! Dating means casually taking out and romancing with a view to maybe becoming exclusive. It doesn’t mean exclusivity from the start. For that, you would have to straight up ask them to be your boyfriend/girlfriend. 
 

I know my husband was exclusive with me from the night he met me and stopped everything else he had going on. I didn’t have anything else going on 🥲🤣 But I mean, corny as it sounds, it truly was, for both of us, love at first sight. We both knew there and then we had met someone we needed for the rest of our lives. A meeting of minds exactly, as well, even though on paper we are a lot different in many ways, we share very unusual similarities that bonded us together from the off.

 

I think the meeting of minds and a kind of, spiritual connection (even though, I am not religious) is lost online, or in modern dating. People are looking for sparks and I get that, I do - but, you need that foundation of ying and yang, for the longevity part, the potential forever part! 
 

x
 

 

[mylolita]

PS - wanted to also add, @yogacat - amazing thread! 🎉🥹🪄🪄🪄

 

x

[Sindy_0311]

This is such an interesting topic. I am just catching up, and I think you were all digging deep yet. So I’m just going to share my experience. 

A few weeks ago I had a first date/meet with a guy I met online (the one who seemed a bit controlling through text for those who remember) He came at the date, very well dressed (he told me he had been thinking about his outfit for a few days) he was smelling good, I guess he went to the barber, he bought me a red rose, and he offered to pay for diner. During the evening he was talking about his achievements, his company, his values, how he is a good father and a provider. He said that he bought an apartment for his retirement, he said that he is monogamous open for a serious relationship, etc… It was all "good" on paper. The guy wanted to make a good impression on me. Problem is that we live in 2024, and I truly think women don’t choose men for their achievements, their money, or their masculinity (aka their courting) In fact, when a man tries to impress me, it repulses me. I only see a giant red flag. Him showing so much effort must be hiding something, and I can’t even believe a word he says. He must be trying to lovebomb for whatever goal he has in mind (sex or control) 

To me a man courting (buying flowers, over texting, overcomplimenting, paying for everthing) is suspicious. I’d rather spend time with someone who takes care of me, asks me what I want to do, tries to genuinely know me and deepen the connection we both have. I hate receiving flowers early stage. It reminds of the day I saw a young guy coming out of a florist with a big bouquet in his hand, wearing it nonchalantly trying to hide it, like if he felt shame for buying flowers. I remember the feeling I got, I thought to myself, poor guy is going out of his way to do something he doesn’t feel ok doing. Also remember that day in the street I was watching at a girl who seemed to be anxiously waiting for someone. Then came a young guy, and they introduced themselves, so I assumed it was a first meet. The guy gave her a bar of chocolate he took out of his jacket and told her, “I’m sorry this is the only thing I had to give to you”. I found this so cute but yet embarrassing, it made me smile. I think young guys try hard to make a good impression on women but somehow the forgot how to do it. Or don’t even know. No one told them how to. Just to say that I think men in general feel embarrassed when they display signs of strong interest, its not coming out naturally, somehow they are overdoing and it feels wrong. 

Looking back on my marriage. When I met my ex-husband for the first time he invited me out for a drink. I remember how he would just tell me about his life, his funny nights out with his buddies, the stupid things he did when they were drunk, he was just telling me his stories, laughing at his jokes and not really ask me anything. I was here just listening to him. Later that night we had sex and a few weeks later he came to live with me in my appartement. At that time, he didn’t have a place to stay and was just arriving in my country. We ended up in a 10 year long relationship and had our son. He courted me a lot in early stage, showing a strong interest and making me his right away. Would I experience such a first date NOW, no way I would go on a second one with him, he was just a giant red flag I didn’t even see. My standards and expectations sharpened through time and experiences. Courting is not enough. A man must be in a healthy place, have his stuff together, be emotionally available, willing to spend quality time with me and have good communications skills. I don’t care if he buys flowers or brags about his achievements or offers a helicopter ride or wants to tie me down from the jump. I just want deep connection and a partnership. I think women nowadays want that and men don’t get it. 

I don’t want a man to court me, but I do let him do the work. Like asking me out, reaching out, calling etc… I don’t think we, women, have to do a single thing outside of being receptive and grateful for the efforts and reciprocate. 

BUT I have been criticized for being too passive and not reaching out in my last relationships… So I wonder whether we are just in the middle of a shift, where women are about to take control of the dating dynamic. Maybe in 10/20 years from now, women courting men will be the new rule. But one thing for sure, there’s a lot of misunderstanding between men and women, that’s why I think it’s important to make it clear from the beginning what are our expectations regarding to the relationship and its dynamic. Me, when I meet someone online or for the first time, I always say something like: “for me a successful relationship is a partnership. I want to find true connection, open and consistent communication and spend quality time together. This is my love language.” 

If a man wants to court me, he then knows how to do it. (Don't you dare buying me flowers.... 😁)

[Batya33]

15 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Again maybe I'm weird, but I kind of like initiating from time to time, doing my share.  It makes me feel good! 

To me I let the man do most of the asking out in the beginning especially.  I had my reasons -I was happy to do the asking and it was ineffective for what I was looking for.  Otherwise I constantly "initiated" -asked men to dance, flirted, started conversations, suggested first meets etc. (which I also did because chat buddy stuff to me was a huge waste of time).  To me that's just - normal -it's not pursuing or chasing. It's showing interest in a person.

[Batya33]

7 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

I love this conversation so much that I had to log in to chip in! 😄

I'd like to add that courtship (in today's dating context) is less common, specially on OLD. A lot of people on OLD are expecting instant gratification. So instant gf/bf, instant sex, instant benefits, ect. Why court if you can get away with NOT doing so? It's easier and takes less efforts.

I found the same exact thing in the 80s in the clubs/bar scene. Also OLD is a mechanism and people are not sheep so serious minded people use it differently than those looking for a hookup IMO.  I felt the candy store part at first but I quickly focused on my goal which meant not getting caught up in all the "attention" from strangers - just like in the club and bar scene which I frequented in the 80s and 90s -early  (minus the drinking to excess or drugs).

[Sindy_0311]

11 hours ago, mylolita said:

Men have mostly in history always been the hunters who brought home the bacon. And I feel the same applied to getting the female. They had to go out and make the move. I often wonder what the animalistic dynamics were between men and women back in the early human days, cave dwelling? 

Actually I saw a documentary about prehistoric women and its seems that the roles were not that black and white back then. They found cave paintings representing women hunting and participating in providing for the community in various ways. So I think its a misconception that women were only waiting for men to bring the food and protect them and the children. the same goes with animals: lionesses do hunt. I think it's not biologically written that men are the hunters. Its the society that decided it... 

[DarkCh0c0]

32 minutes ago, Sindy_0311 said:

We ended up in a 10 year long relationship and had our son. He courted me a lot in early stage, showing a strong interest and making me his right away.

So how did things end between you two? Did he stop showing interest and took you for granted? Or was it something else?

I think the courting is nice, but in small doses. The more we know each other and care about each other, the more there is  courting. And vice versa.

[Batya33]

8 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

What is the definition of "wining and dining"?  I ask this seriously.

Personally, I prefer a lively pub with good music, good eats and a low-key, casual atmosphere.  

The man typically pays but I may offer to pay the tip or a drink elsewhere.

Would that be considered wining and dining?  I literally cannot stand expensive high-end restaurants that require us to get all dolled up and decked out where the bill is astronomically high with mediocre food much of the time , which is what I always perceived wining and dining to be.

 

 

I don't know generally -to me it means going all out with the fancy restaurants or whisking the person to Paris, etc from the U.S. lol.  To me it's not "courting" especially if the purpose is to sweep the woman off her feet into bed lol (or the man I guess!!)