Modern Dating: The Evolution of Courtship for Men and Women

[boltnrun]

I know I've mentioned before I know someone who exclusively dates passive, submissive men because, she says, if she dated strong, confident men she might not always get her own way. And she wants to get her own way 100% of the time. She has zero interest in compromising.

Interestingly, she has been single for many years. Maybe she hasn't had much luck finding a man who will let her completely run the show all the time. 

[rainbowsandroses]

7 hours ago, Sindy_0311 said:

I don’t want a man to court me, but I do let him do the work. Like asking me out, reaching out, calling etc… I don’t think we, women, have to do a single thing outside of being receptive and grateful for the efforts and reciprocate. 

^^There is a popular saying - "we appreciate and value more the things we have to work for a bit." 

This holds true for both men and women and when I look back at the men I've dated, when a man did ALL the work and all he expected from me was gratefulness and appreciation for all he did, I became complacent and bored.  Lazy, uninspired.  And I lost interest.

Being "allowed" (by him) to do nothing outside of being receptive and grateful did not inspire me to want to get closer to him or tbh even respect him!  

I needed/need to make effort too, to do some of the "work," to participate in the dating process and eventual relationship.

To @Sindy_0311unless I misinterpreted, your ex-husband did all the work and that's exactly what happened, you eventually became uninspired, unchallenged and bored, questioning if you ever even loved him.  

Again, apologies if I got this wrong but you posted that early on, you dislike when men do things like buy flowers and gifts, spend too much time primping for a date, etc, likening it to trying too hard to impress. 

And you didn't and don't trust it. Fwiw, neither do I !! 

Often times, they're just 'going through the motions,' they're like robots programmed to behave a certain way in order to get the girl, not even knowing themselves if they want that girl!  That's the perception anyway, it appears phony, disingenuous.

Ideally, imo there should be a balance.  Not the man doing all the work and women doing nothing but being receptive.  

A balance of give and take and from the men I've talked to and dated, both online and in real, what men want and need now in today's dating culture is for the woman he's dating to "participate" in the process.  To make some effort, meet him halfway!! 

I'd like to think we as humans have evolved from prehistoric caveman days, and are still evolving!  I hope so anyway!

If one likens it to biology (a science), science is always evolving.

7 hours ago, Sindy_0311 said:

I wonder whether we are just in the middle of a shift, where women are about to take control of the dating dynamic.

^^I dont think so!  Not at all.  Perhaps what's happening is that we as humans are recognizing that with the divorce rate being so high (80% here in CA), and people (generally) being fearful of or simply not interested in committed relationships as we once were, and with groups like MGTOW and "Me Too," among others, something needed/needs to change.  

The old paradigm of men pursuing/women responding with no in between simply isnt working anymore.

What would be really helpful is, instead of fighting against each other, we at least attempt to "understand" each other better.

Men understanding women's experiences and what has brought them to this place of distrust, needing men to 'prove' themselves and their interest, and women understanding men's experiences for the same reason.

No one has it 'easy,' we all struggle, we've all made poor choices, had unfortunate experiences and gotten hurt.  

Each of us are products of our own experiences, they've shaped us into who we are, why we think and act as we do and conduct our relationships as we do. 

For me, I do seek that understanding and I do trust unless and until a man gives me reason not to, using my best judgment and trusting my own intuition.

Works well for me and if anyone is interested, Texas guy responded two minutes after reading my message expressing an interest in talking on the phone first before we meet in person and offered ME his phone number. 

Which makes sense!  That he would want to talk on phone, hear my voice, get a 'feel' before making such a trip.

I view this as a positive!  Including offering me his number versus asking for mine and allowing me the time and space to call when I'm ready.  He'll have my number when I call him. 

I really appreciate that!  

[Batya33]

14 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

if she dated strong, confident men she might not always get her own way. And she wants to get her own way 100% of the time.

Just with all respect and JMO - I know of no healthy marriages where this is the mindset.  Emphasis on healthy.  I think one of the best parts of marriage is how your partner can inspire you to see things in a different light -not "convince" or "win" -not what I mean.  Last year I was convinced we would need to make a drastic life change to support our son's dream of going to a particular high school.  I just could not see it any other way and was frustrated when my husband said there were other alternatives. 

Until one day he found a way to explain his thinking, his perspective.  It clicked for me -but also because he is my partner and I respect him, his intellect but also he's Type B and my Type A stuff gets in my way!  Because of him I "gave in" -because I could see a way out.  Is compromise/being open to not getting your own way "old fashioned" - particularly for women?

Also maybe- for some -delayed marriage plus living on one's own makes it harder to compromise/let someone in in that way.  (It didn't for me that I could tell).

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, yogacat said:

 a lot of the dating advice out there today is designed to trigger an unhealthy emotion to get a man to pursue you. 

The pickup artist rhetoric and books like the Rules don't really work. Either someone is attracted and interested..or they're not. People aren't really like those dogs chasing bones at the track. But those types of dating books and gurus make their money telling people they can get someone to chase them. 

[boltnrun]

28 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I know of no healthy marriages where this is the mindset.  Emphasis on healthy.  I think one of the best parts of marriage is how your partner can inspire you to see things in a different light

She has no interest in this.  She's very much a "my way or the highway" sort.  She apparently was married to a man who (according to her amateur Google diagnosis) had BPD.  So maybe that's why she developed her current mindset.  She says she absolutely HATES being single but she's not willing to compromise on anything, so...

I never wanted to get married ever again, but I am absolutely willing to compromise and listen to my partner's POV.  And, especially in areas where I have limited knowledge, I will let my partner take the reins.  I am fine with letting them put together a piece of furniture because I suck at that.  And while he's doing that I'll go into the kitchen and whip up some chicken enchiladas or a snack of avocado toast with grilled shrimp, garlic and shallots. 

If I ever dated I would appreciate a man who celebrated both our individualities while also being willing to enjoy each other doing things we both like or are willing to do to benefit the other one.  I can't go deep sea fishing or on a cruise (for example) because I get horribly seasick (and anti-seasick medication makes me fall asleep) but I can go lake fishing or on a lake boat tour or go kayaking or whitewater rafting.  

[yogacat]

Thanks folks for the additional perspectives!🙂

I suppose part of the reason I was thinking about this is because my past dating experience has been men courting me in a more traditional sense. One LTR... our first date consisted of dinner and a movie, holding hands, being walked to the car, etc. as we progressively started communicating more and being together more, at first it was maybe one date every other week, we gradually saw each other more until it was like seeing each other every weekend, Friday take out, Saturday outing, and Sunday Funday. 

And honestly it was great! I felt pursued in a nice steady pace and it helped me open up more, learn more about the guy's intentions, his character, how he feels about me, why he wanted to date me, etc.

Casually dating, wanting a serious relationship but not looking for anything serious, the definition of "serious" becomes more obscure. 

It seems that we need more clarity?

But I'm guessing the lack of clarity and making the guy feel uneasy talking about being in a committed together, only to have him say he's not looking for anything serious or to eventually walk away from over communicating is far worse (IMO) than coming to terms it's just better to court and get to know one another and go from there.

That relationship (the one I mentioned in the first paragraph) ended a few years ago and my most recent LTR was roughly the same. Don't get me wrong, I've casually dated before and agree with folks it's a few dates and maybe smooching and possibly sleeping with someone. 

But if we know we're looking for something more for something long term, why are we not more upfront about courting? Can courting still be a part of a dating playlist or it's the same playlist, just different songs?

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, yogacat said:

 my past dating experience has been men courting me in a more traditional sense. One LTR... our first date consisted of dinner and a movie, holding hands, being walked to the car, etc. as we progressively started communicating more and being together more, at first it was maybe one date every other week, we gradually saw each other more until it was like seeing each other every weekend, Friday take out, Saturday outing, and Sunday Funday. I felt pursued in a nice steady pace.

This is sort of wining and dining. Which happens in more established relationships. However it's unrealistic to hope someone you're seeing casually or just met will pursue this much. 

[mylolita]

Just started watching this interview with a psychologist on love, dating, mating and “The Game!” if anyone is interested!

 

 

x

[Sindy_0311]

5 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I view this as a positive!  Including offering me his number versus asking for mine and allowing me the time and space to call when I'm ready.  He'll have my number when I call him. 

This is exactly like the flowers… LOL I hate it when a men gives me his phone number and indirectly asks me to take action and make the first call. I want a men to ask for my number and actually call ME. See I don’t expect a man to show me grand gestures or invite in fancy restaurants or spend money on me. But one thing he has to do : is be proactive. He has to take initiative for me to respect him and appreciate him. I want a man to lead and to invite me in the dance… it might sound old fashioned, but this is how it works for me. 
To clarify, I didn’t lose interest in my ex-husband, I just didn’t have enough to begin with. But his courting made me think that maybe he was my best option, the most secure one… and I didn’t take the time to really think about our relationship until the day I got pregnant, I told him that for me it was a bit to soon. He told me, if you abort, I’ll leave you. So we got our son and lived happily ever after. I was so young a and naive back then. 

[Sindy_0311]

2 hours ago, yogacat said:

Casually dating, wanting a serious relationship but not looking for anything serious, the definition of "serious" becomes more obscure. 

I had a chat today about the topic with one of my girlfriends who is also dating and I came to that conclusion : I think we should date casually with the hope that someday we will click with someone and want to deepen the relationship. I do no longer want to meet men and tell that I’m looking for something serious. It doesn’t lead anywhere and just gives an open door for the lovebombers and guys who have bad intentions… if a guy I’m “casually” dating actually likes me and that we both catch feelings for each other, than I don’t see a reason why not making it official and get into a serious relationship. 

[Batya33]

5 minutes ago, Sindy_0311 said:

I had a chat today about the topic with one of my girlfriends who is also dating and I came to that conclusion : I think we should date casually with the hope that someday we will click with someone and want to deepen the relationship. I do no longer want to meet men and tell that I’m looking for something serious. It doesn’t lead anywhere and just gives an open door for the lovebombers and guys who have bad intentions… if a guy I’m “casually” dating actually likes me and that we both catch feelings for each other, than I don’t see a reason why not making it official and get into a serious relationship. 

That's one way! I couldn't risk it. The waste of time.  I really never had to say it first - I mean both our OLD profiles listed it when we met that way but most men I met told me first and early on.  And as far as developing feelings I wouldn't have allowed myself unless I knew his intentions. But for sure dating someone and seeing what happens - why not? I just didn't make negative assumptions about love bombing and using me once they knew - I had so many male friends and like men so I knew there could be a bad apple as an exception but I didn't lead with waiting for the shoe to drop.

[mylolita]

I have to say @Sindy_0311 I am exactly the same! 
 

My husband asked for my Facebook when he met me! And the he followed up with this big waffling nervous message he had sent when he had got back from the club at 3am to ask to take me out. He called me the next day because I gave him my phone number over the message. 
 

I saw his pursuit as a kind of way to gauge his interest, and I knew he was completely interested in such a huge way, there was no denying it! 
 

He didn’t bring me flowers, we didn’t go out to a fancy restaurant for the first date: but now knowing him I know he put on a shirt which, he so rarely wears as he’s a kind of natural bloke and a t shirt and jeans is the uniform! 
 

We did however talk about absolutely everything intensely over the next few weeks everytime we met up which was anytime we could! If we wanted kids, how many! We talked about our beliefs, morals, we talked music and religion. We talked it all! I think the meeting of minds and “soul mate” feeling of it was what took me aback. It wasn’t just a lustful thing although our chemistry has always been amazing! 🥹 It was more, I used to feel so alone, and now? Not anymore, and my life can never be the same again, and, I needed him almost instantly. 

 

x

[yogacat]

9 minutes ago, Sindy_0311 said:

I had a chat today about the topic with one of my girlfriends who is also dating and I came to that conclusion : I think we should date casually with the hope that someday we will click with someone and want to deepen the relationship. I do no longer want to meet men and tell that I’m looking for something serious. It doesn’t lead anywhere and just gives an open door for the lovebombers and guys who have bad intentions… if a guy I’m “casually” dating actually likes me and that we both catch feelings for each other, than I don’t see a reason why not making it official and get into a serious relationship. 

Yes. I feel like I've had several good relationships, some not so good ones and now, I am just focused on meeting and getting to know new people.

[mylolita]

2 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

That's one way! I couldn't risk it. The waste of time.  I really never had to say it first - I mean both our OLD profiles listed it when we met that way but most men I met told me first and early on.  And as far as developing feelings I wouldn't have allowed myself unless I knew his intentions.

 

1 minute ago, yogacat said:

Yes. I feel like I've had several good relationships, some not so good ones and now, I am just focused on meeting and getting to know new people.

I will say yoga that this is a lovely and relaxed philosophy and I think that’s great! I wish the casual girlies here out dating all the BEST and dating ZEST! 🥳
 

My nudging opinion to you would simply be - just remember the archer, and the aim! 😉 Cupids Bow n’all that! For the bullseye 🎯 😘

 

x

[yogacat]

5 minutes ago, mylolita said:

 

I will say yoga that this is a lovely and relaxed philosophy and I think that’s great! I wish the casual girlies here out dating all the BEST and dating ZEST! 🥳
 

My nudging opinion to you would simply be - just remember the archer, and the aim! 😉 Cupids Bow n’all that! For the bullseye 🎯 😘

 

x

Thanks. 🤭 I suppose my philosophy has been a bit somewhat of a 'wait and see' approach because relationships require a lot of work and I'm not always 100% convinced that I'm ready to put in the effort for someone.

But that doesn't mean I'm not open to the possibility.

[mylolita]

1 minute ago, yogacat said:

Thanks. 🤭 I suppose my philosophy has been a bit somewhat of a 'wait and see' approach because relationships require a lot of work and I'm not always 100% convinced that I'm ready to put in the effort for someone.

But that doesn't mean I'm not open to the possibility.

Nothing worthwhile is easy 🥰

 

x

[Batya33]

2 minutes ago, yogacat said:

Thanks. 🤭 I suppose my philosophy has been a bit somewhat of a 'wait and see' approach because relationships require a lot of work and I'm not always 100% convinced that I'm ready to put in the effort for someone.

But that doesn't mean I'm not open to the possibility.

I like how honest you are about that!!

[mylolita]

I will add that healthy, happy and passionate marriages are full of continual seduction, dating, and “courting!” 
 

I feel the dynamics never end and it becomes even more important and vital to keep each other from taking things for granted! 
 

It does well to keep some mystery within marriage and long term relationships I find! And also, some distance and space to miss the other one. My husband often works away and then is home a lot. It’s been a helpful dynamic because we have our time apart; pine for each other and then are so glad to see each other when he comes back.

 

I feel the “dating” aspect never really stops, it just changes as the couple progress and get comfortable.

 

x

[Batya33]

Just now, mylolita said:

I will add that healthy, happy and passionate marriages are full of continual seduction, dating, and “courting!” 
 

I feel the dynamics never end and it becomes even more important and vital to keep each other from taking things for granted! 

Great point but - that would be funny if men were like -ok this is modern times wife of mine -let's just netflix and chill babe.

[Sindy_0311]

6 minutes ago, yogacat said:

Thanks. 🤭 I suppose my philosophy has been a bit somewhat of a 'wait and see' approach because relationships require a lot of work and I'm not always 100% convinced that I'm ready to put in the effort for someone.

But that doesn't mean I'm not open to the possibility.

This is exactly how I want to approach things from now on and I will adopt your  philosophy. This speaks a lot to me! Thank you 🙏 

[rainbowsandroses]

LOL at myself!! 

After reading Texas guy's last message, I take what I've posted about him back. 

He wasn't rude or offensive, it's just nothing but him pretty much messin with me now.  It's soooo obvious.  

Being intentionally vague, evasive, non-engaging, one word responses, it's actually funny and not a huge deal at all.  

Everything happens for a reason guys!!

I needed to make that slight move forward to know what his angle was and now I know.  Next.

On with the great discussion!  

EDIT:   Oh and he never did give me his phone number, it was probably all a Game anyway, haha, this is precisely why I've learned to take on line with a huge pinch of salt!  Lol

[rainbowsandroses]

2 hours ago, yogacat said:

Thanks. 🤭 I suppose my philosophy has been a bit somewhat of a 'wait and see' approach because relationships require a lot of work and I'm not always 100% convinced that I'm ready to put in the effort for someone.

But that doesn't mean I'm not open to the possibility.

Love this^^ too!! 

And pretty much where I'm at right now myself, and the reason why I'm enjoying the more casual side of things.😀 

 

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, yogacat said:

 relationships require a lot of work and I'm not always 100% convinced that I'm ready to put in the effort for someone.

If you're feeling this inertia or not up to dating that's fine. But if meeting people is half-hearted and just for entertainment, it's doubtful the results will be what you hope. 

[mylolita]

7 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Great point but - that would be funny if men were like -ok this is modern times wife of mine -let's just netflix and chill babe.

I did Netflix and chill last night Batya - LOLOLOLOL 

 

Or as it used to be called, “too tired and too lazy to go out - what’s on tv?” 🤣

 

x

[mylolita]

I thought this snippet was relevant to the discussion on modern masculine roles and modern feminine roles. How they are changing? 
 

Robert Greene has wrote a few books, his most famous ‘The 48 Laws Of Power’ - not sure if anyone has read this? 
 

Thought it might be of interest! 
 

x