Modern Dating: The Evolution of Courtship for Men and Women

[DarkCh0c0]

@mylolita  @MrMan1983I agree too with how picky we can be. I got a book called "Sis, Don't settle" a good time ago , and because of it, I laid out a list of must haves. I had 40+ items of must-haves. And the author was insisting that we shouldn't settle until Mr right meets most/all of them.

Then come to find out, she just married at the age 40 2 years ago and just had a kid. Married just 2 years ago (or 3 by now)! I wasn't sure if I could trust such advice from someone with no proof of long lasting marriage. And she is the one to give advice on navigating relationships, maintaining them, ect.

So yea, being too picky is shooting ourselves in the foot. I learned to relax more, but preserve my deal-breakers.

@Batya33 I kept remembering you while reading the book as the author kept mentioning being Ms Right to meet Mr Right! 😄

[rainbowsandroses]

6 hours ago, Kwothe28 said:

Also, I am sorry but generally speaking she has a point. Men don’t generally value your career choices. They usually dont care you are CEO. I am sorry, but that is a woman thing. But men would value you by beauty and yes even age of fertility.

Bolded - There IS truth to this^^ (even the part about career) for some men, that is correct. 100%, not going to refute that.

But again it's subjective because there are also many men who do not value those things, not to the same degree.

I've met both, I've also talked with men in a support group I attended years ago and been on a few men's forums.  And of course the men I've had relationships with.

On the men's forums (not PUA but believe it or not some men even on PUA forums) do NOT want a woman 18???? or in their early 20s, they have BTDT and have no desire to be their "parent" or "teacher" (their words); they value and appreciate a woman with a certain amount of experience, intellectually and sexually.  For various reasons. 

Re sexually I don't want to throw out numbers (of sexual partners) because it differs for every man, some men don't care about the numbers at all.  They place no value on it either way.  And these are intelligent, educated, professionally successful men. 

Women are also fertile into their 30s and are also quite beautiful!!  Into their 40s and even 50s depending how she cares for herself etc.

But just here in my neck of the woods (SoCal), the number of utterly naturally beautiful women in their 30s and 40s is staggering!  

As such her "sexual market value" may be even higher than when she was 18, I've seen it!  And heard it from several men! 

That's my only issue with @mylolitacomment, the age factor.  Claiming a womans SMV peaks at 18 and goes downhill from there, as if it were a matter of FACT.

It's not.  NOT for all men and for me personally a man who believes it is and who won't touch a woman under the age of 25 and who thinks less of a woman who is not a virgin and not "pure," and/or who has had more than 1-2 boyfriends deeming her "damaged goods," I wouldn't want HIM and felt that way even when I was in my early 20's and supposedly at my "peak." 

I won't go into what I think of that mindset, it's just not something I can respect, personally.

 

[yogacat]

6 hours ago, yogacat said:

I agree, to a degree.

Albeit.

Men are often at a disadvantage when it comes to negotiating sex because men tend to have higher sexual motivation than women. Studies have shown that men in general have a stronger drive for sex. This means that in most situations where someone wants sex but doesn't get it, that person is likely to be male. Because of this, men are put at a disadvantage because of the "principle of least interest," which states that the less invested or motivated person has more control in a relationship. 

I am not saying men are not capable of restraining their sexual desires. I am just pointing out that their sexual motivation tends to be stronger than women's in general, according to studies.

I have certainly been courted (or whatever term people choose to call it) enough that I know men are capable of having self-control.

My point was more to emphasize the fact that just because some people think that a woman's "sexual market value" diminishes with time doesn't mean that she shouldn't be able to choose a partner based on what she wants in a relationship rather than what society tells her should be her "value." 

[itsallgrand]

Yeah same, rainbowandroses. I was never interested in those men who had the mindset of women having an expiry date on attractiveness or desirability. There are plenty who feel that way, and they can have at 'er , but I avoided them like the plague even as a girl. There are a lot of tells when someone feels that way, and for the most part it's not too hard to make a choice one way or another if you want to be with someone like that or no.

It's two different ball games dating looking for an equal and looking for someone based on fleeting desires they can fill for you and vice versa. 

 

[boltnrun]

I would wonder what happens when the 18-25 year old woman ages out of her alleged "most desirable" timeframe. Would the man be motivated to exchange her for a younger woman?

This happened to a good friend of mine actually. When she reached age 50 her husband started having affairs with much younger women (and took ten years off of his own age). He didn't want a 50 year old wife. His new wife is now approaching 40. I wonder if he will attempt to trade her in once she too reaches age 50. 

My brother will not date anyone under age 48. He's not interested in a woman who is much younger. I wouldn't want to date younger either. When I quote a song or movie I don't want to see a blank stare. 

Listen to "Hey 19" by Steely Dan. 

[yogacat]

The argument women's "sexual value decreases" is stupid. It's stupid because older men that date much younger women but he has a lot of money or the woman has "daddy issues" does that mean he is only as valuable as the money he has or his ability to manipulate a woman's psychological issues?

I mean, come on. It's 2024. We should not be reducing human beings to their sexual value. We are so much more than that. We have talents, intelligence, strengths, and passions that make us valuable individuals.

 

[Coily]

5 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

I would wonder what happens when the 18-25 year old woman ages out of her alleged "most desirable" timeframe. Would the man be motivated to exchange her for a younger woman?

"Hi, I'm Leonardo DiCaprio, ooops you're over 25........... Byeeee"

[dias]

The opinions here sway from one extreme to the other. From the Leonardo DiCaprio type to the blind "I only care about you inner beauty" type. Both are extremes with the latter being more laughable.

[rainbowsandroses]

2 hours ago, boltnrun said:

I wonder what happens when the 18-25 year old woman ages out of her alleged "most desirable" timeframe. Would the man be motivated to exchange her for a younger woman?

This brings up an interesting point. 

I was going to ask @mylolitaabout it because of a comment she made stating that being in her 30s now and if she and her husband divorced and she found herself single, she believes that men would value her less and she may have difficulty finding another man. 

I also wonder if she believes her own husband values her less now that she's no longer 18 and at her peak, and in her 30s.

I'm paraphrasing but that was the gist.

@mylolitafirstly I hope all is well in your marriage and secondly if you do ever become single again, please don't ever think your value is lessened by your age (30s) or because you're a single mum, there are many many men who don't place such a high value on those things, men who are evolved, respect women for all they have to offer (including beauty but beauty is subjective and not necessarily dependent on her age - depends on the man) and who judge each women individually versus as a "group" with rigid beliefs about what constitutes a woman's "sexual market value." 

I speak from experience saying this. 😀

 

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Women are also fertile into their 30s and are also quite beautiful!!  Into their 40s and even 50s depending how she cares for herself etc.

But just here in my neck of the woods (SoCal), the number of utterly naturally beautiful women in their 30s and 40s is staggering!  

Quite beautiful - by what standards?? Looks matter for sure -but I stand by beauty in the eye of the beholder and an inordinate focus on youth/looks -inordinate- I don't think makes for a healthy LTR - unless both people buy into that and value that equally -or if the woman is content as arm candy to that degree -to be arm candy -and can fund or have her man fund the botox/surgeries/implants etc.  To each her own. Or his own.  My son is 15 and I'm 57 and he loves telling me how beautiful he thinks I am and no I'm not according to those standards.

As far as fertility for those who want kids -and biologically- I was unable to do egg freezing - the technology wasn't ready when I was - but I'd suggest women who are focused on kids someday to freeze their eggs if possible.  I was just darn lucky at age 41 and it was so emotionally stressful.

[rainbowsandroses]

3 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Quite beautiful - by what standards?? Looks matter for sure -but I stand by beauty in the eye of the beholder and an inordinate focus on youth/looks -inordinate- I don't think makes for a healthy LTR - unless both people buy into that and value that equally -or if the woman is content as arm candy to that degree -to be arm candy -and can fund or have her man fund the botox/surgeries/implants etc.  To each her own. Or his own.  My son is 15 and I'm 57 and he loves telling me how beautiful he thinks I am and no I'm not according to those standards.

As far as fertility for those who want kids -and biologically- I was unable to do egg freezing - the technology wasn't ready when I was - but I'd suggest women who are focused on kids someday to freeze their eggs if possible.  I was just darn lucky at age 41 and it was so emotionally stressful.

You missed my point entirely.

 

[Batya33]

3 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

You missed my point entirely.

 

Oh my apologies! That was how I interpreted what you wrote. What is the point of giving your opinion on the looks of women you assume are in their 30s and 40s as far as their looks? That they still look "beautiful" after age 25? IMO - my point -so what and who cares as far as this topic?

[yogacat]

14 minutes ago, dias said:

The opinions here sway from one extreme to the other. From the Leonardo DiCaprio type to the blind "I only care about you inner beauty" type. Both are extremes with the latter being more laughable.

Inner beauty is laughable? Awe, I'm glad that character and personality don't matter at all and physical appearance is the only thing worth judging people for. 😉

[Batya33]

Just now, yogacat said:

Inner beauty is laughable? Awe, I'm glad that character and personality don't matter at all and physical appearance is the only thing worth judging people for. 😉

I think physical attraction is essential. Quite often looks are part of physical attraction.  Sometimes people also want their dates to be arm candy.  To me that's different from physical attraction.

[yogacat]

2 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I think physical attraction is essential. Quite often looks are part of physical attraction.  Sometimes people also want their dates to be arm candy.  To me that's different from physical attraction.

Of course.  I think we can all agree that physical attraction is important in a relationship. We are naturally attracted to certain physical characteristics in others. It's a primal instinct and nothing to be ashamed of.

What is laughable is the idea that inner beauty holds little value. This isn't Hitler's era where we're solely focused on natural selection and breeding the perfect race.

[Batya33]

3 minutes ago, yogacat said:

Of course.  I think we can all agree that physical attraction is important in a relationship. We are naturally attracted to certain physical characteristics in others. It's a primal instinct and nothing to be ashamed of.

What is laughable is the idea that inner beauty holds little value. This isn't Hitler's era where we're solely focused on natural selection and breeding the perfect race.

I read that comment to mean that saying only inner beauty matters is unrealistic in dating.  I agree.  When I dated for example, women in their 20s-30s who looked very overweight were at a real disadvantage if they were in the dating scene. So were short men (my husband is short; I preferred shorter men).

[yogacat]

1 minute ago, Batya33 said:

I read that comment to mean that saying only inner beauty matters is unrealistic in dating.  I agree.  When I dated for example, women in their 20s-30s who looked very overweight were at a real disadvantage if they were in the dating scene. So were short men (my husband is short; I preferred shorter men).

True. But plenty of overweight women (men and women) that are paired up and slinging tongues with someone.

[dias]

12 minutes ago, yogacat said:

Inner beauty is laughable? Awe, I'm glad that character and personality don't matter at all and physical appearance is the only thing worth judging people for. 😉

And I thought my post couldn't be misconstrued...apparently everything can.

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, yogacat said:

True. But plenty of overweight women (men and women) that are paired up and slinging tongues with someone.

This is so - odd - how you're taking those comments - no I didn't mean that - I meant specifically when I was dating - around 1980-2005 in one maor city-  it was a real disadvantage especially for women -not so much for men.  Disadvantage didn't mean never or anything like that.  

[itsallgrand]

57 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

I would wonder what happens when the 18-25 year old woman ages out of her alleged "most desirable" timeframe. Would the man be motivated to exchange her for a younger woman?

This happened to a good friend of mine actually. When she reached age 50 her husband started having affairs with much younger women (and took ten years off of his own age). He didn't want a 50 year old wife. His new wife is now approaching 40. I wonder if he will attempt to trade her in once she too reaches age 50. 

My brother will not date anyone under age 48. He's not interested in a woman who is much younger. I wouldn't want to date younger either. When I quote a song or movie I don't want to see a blank stare. 

Listen to "Hey 19" by Steely Dan. 

See it all the time. Trading in for the younger model. I always wondered why these types bother to get married. They end up with a bunch of exes and paying out the butt for the privilege lol. At least die hard Casanovas who just skip from one to the next are honest about their intentions  

[yogacat]

5 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

This is so - odd - how you're taking those comments - no I didn't mean that - I meant specifically when I was dating - around 1980-2005 in one maor city-  it was a real disadvantage especially for women -not so much for men.  Disadvantage didn't mean never or anything like that.  

Well, maybe there is part truth to that.

I saw a different atmosphere. Specifically, my female cousin that has always been overweight, had no shortage of attention from men. She is flirty, outgoing, and fun. I was a slim (still am) and have my own success in attracting males.

And everyone has choices in who they prefer to date. I totally get what you're saying, just different life experiences. 

[rainbowsandroses]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

What is the point of giving your opinion on the looks of women you assume are in their 30s and 40s as far as their looks?

My point was that not all men determine a woman's 'sexual market value' by her AGE.  Some men, yes and I stated that.  ALL men, no which I also stated.

Apparently you laser focused on the one comment (below) NOT in bold and disregarded the rest, in bold.

Anyway, I trust this clarifies.

3 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

But just here in my neck of the woods (SoCal), the number of utterly naturally beautiful women in their 30s and 40s is staggering!  

As such her "sexual market value" may be even higher than when she was 18, I've seen it!  And heard it from several men! 

That's my only issue with @mylolitacomment, the age factor.  Claiming a woman's SMV peaks at 18 and goes downhill from there, as if it were a matter of FACT.

It's not.  NOT for all men...

 

[rainbowsandroses]

2 hours ago, yogacat said:

True. But plenty of overweight women (men and women) that are paired up and slinging tongues with someone.

@yoga, I didn't interpret @diascomment to mean that a woman's inner beauty does not matter.  He was speaking about extremes of opinions.  Meaning that only outer beauty matters (which is one extreme) OR only inner beauty matters (another extreme).  

We (both men and women) need BOTH imo.  

My recent ex said to me (as well as other men I've had relationships with) "rainbows, you're beautiful inside and out" both were important to him.  One without the other and I would not have been the right woman for him (and vice versa as I feel the same about men).  

Re quoted above, beauty is subjective and who's to say that a particular man would NOT find an overweight woman beautiful?   It's so nuanced - to HIM she may be beautiful (for many reasons), who's to say?

The point is we are all attracted to each other for different reasons, what one man finds beautiful another man may not.  

This is true for women too, about men.  It is for me anyway and most women I know.  I suppose there are men and women who only care about outer beauty and men and women who only care about inner beauty.

Which imo is OKAY, to each their own, whatever works.

 

[Batya33]

42 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

My point was that not all men determine a woman's 'sexual market value' by her AGE.  Some men, yes and I stated that.  ALL men, no which I also stated.

Apparently you laser focused on the one comment (below) NOT in bold and disregarded the rest, in bold.

Anyway, I trust this clarifies.

 

I agree. Also I never needed sexual market value given why I was dating for almost the whole time I dated. 

[rainbowsandroses]

1 minute ago, Batya33 said:

I agree. Also I never needed sexual market value given why I was dating for almost the whole time I dated. 

I dislike the phrase "sexual market value" as well.  As stated earlier, it's overly broad and highly subjective.  Imo.

I only referenced it in my post as it was in context with what was being discussed and Lolita's comment about it.