Modern Dating: The Evolution of Courtship for Men and Women

[rainbowsandroses]

21 minutes ago, mylolita said:

Just to add. If a guy wants a woman who doesn’t need him, does it all, makes a million dollars a year, is like, super woman whilst still maintaining a 22 inch waist and changing the oil and building a car engine whilst cooking a gourmet dinner then… that’s not me. And he’ll have to move onto another highly educated career woman who has maybe her three degrees hung up on the wall.

^^Totally agree!   And it would NOT be me even if I DID make a zillion a year with a high powered career.

I will own that I "need" men or rather when I'm in a relationship with a man I care about and who cares about me, I need HIM!! That specific man.

And if a woman involved with a man ever told me she doesn't 'need' her boyfriend or husband (for emotional support, for comfort, to enhance her life and bring her joy, among other things ), I'd have to question why she chooses to be in a relationship with him or married in the first place. 

Of course men need to feel needed, so do women!  Not in the sense he/she cannot survive without and when I do not have a special man in my life, I am totally fine on my own.

But when I do, yes absolutely I need "him" and he needs me too in his own way.

I'm so tired of such old clichés such as "I don't 'need' you, but I 'want' you" etc.

I don't even know what that means tbh.

[mylolita]

16 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

It's been already proven with research published that children with their parents together do far better in life than children who grow up in a single health. Specially in regards to mental health. This is, ofc, so long the parents are not abusive/toxic.

@mylolitaso what would a woman married to an abusive person or in an unhappy marriage do if she doesn't work? These are situations where she'd need to. There's often no financial support from ex husbands to ex wives.

Out of curiosity, do you dress in an eccentric way? Judging the way you write, you sound like a very free spirit irl 😊 almost like you hang out in retro style cafes with plenty of bookshelves. I could be totally wrong though....

Aw Dark! 
 

I am AN ECCENTRIC MY DEAR of COURSE I AM! 🎻🤣 Of course! That’s, extremely observant and bang on! 
 

I’m part French! On my mothers side. How do I dress? How to explain! I often wear halter tops, backless tops, low plunge tops (I’m extremely flat chested) with a tightly twisted silk scarf round my neck (it’s often quite brightly coloured but I have quite the collection!) and I love cigarette trousers, silk trousers that flow but are very high waisted, or quite long skirts with wooden wedge heels or heeled sandals! No heavy make up but always lipstick and eyeliner - love red lipstick, plum lipstick! 
 

Love linen trousers in the summer with ankle wrap tie heels! I live a 5 minute walk from the beach and woods! 
 

Love a wrap dress! Anything that high lights the waist! Think they by the way look FAB on ALL female body types! 
 

Don’t wear accessories on the day to day basic like earrings and bracelets but I LOVE a good watch or a belt. Always wear a watch. I have some quite fancy watches, bought for me my THE HUSBAND of course the little heathen I am 🥲 I have a lovely tiny Gucci cocktail watch with 180 diamonds that is vintage. I wear a nice red leather strapped Swiss watch during the day. Nothing chunky. 
 

Love tying scarfs in my hair, love exotic big antique hair clips and claws! Love romantic essences style, basically. 
 

When I did work a regular job I worked front of house admin and social lubricator for the deals at a law firm and I absolutely enjoyed a full three piece suit, with sky scraper heels, or lovely shirts in interesting patterns with pencil skirts. Actually Dark, I could talk fashion ALL DAY I am addicted 🥲☕️

 

Part of my husbands job is being an art dealer. We have original paintings, especially nudes and portraits, all over our period house! One of my favourite things to do is have an open fire on in the lounge during the day! I love strange Catholic pot pourri! l love this brand called “Santa Marie Novella” 

 

https://uk.smnovella.com/collections/pot-pourri

 

I have this stuff in antique bowls and giant clam shells about the house! 

I have vases of flowers everywhere that I arrange and sometimes go and hand pick wild ones! I always have a vase full in my bedroom, on the bath rack, on the kitchen island, living room, dining room… God, entrance hall! Everywhere!!

 

I collect antiques! I would have took a literature degree if I had to choose a degree. Or maybe art history. I love Greek mythology! Or biology! 


First thing I do on a morning is put music on, normally Stan Getz or some kind of bossa nova. I have a sound system that covers most of the house.

My kids probably have a bit of a crafty, beachy, old fashioned up bringing. I considered home schooling very seriously and still do sometimes. I play a few instruments, love to pole dance, love lingerie, collect it a bit actually. Love boxes and have an obsession with Magnolia trees, cherry blossom trees, and Lilac trees! Love gardening as well! 

 

Anyway, am I eccentric? Bit bohemian? Maybe 🥲🥲🥲

 

x

 

[itsallgrand]

2 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Totally agree!   And it wouldn't be me even if I DID make a zillion a year with a high powered career.

I will own that I "need" men or rather when I'm in a relationship with a man I care about and who cares about me, I need HIM!! 

And if a woman involved with a man ever told me she doesn't 'need' her boyfriend or husband (for emotional support, for comfort, to enhance her life and bring her joy), I'd have to question why she chooses to be in a relationship or married in the first place. 

Of course men need to feel needed, so do women!  Not in the sense he/she cannot survive without and when I do not have a special man in my life, I totally fine on my own.

But when I do, yes absolutely I need "him" and he needs me too in his own way.

I'm so tired of such old clichés such as "I don't 'need' you, but I 'want' you" etc.

I don't even know what that means tbh.

I think you are agreeing though with the basic idea. Not needing them to fill those holes in your life that you (general you) should be filling for yourself.

There are plenty out there trying to fill their holes with a man or woman. I'm sure you've met some! 

That's all it really means. 

[rainbowsandroses]

11 minutes ago, itsallgrand said:

I think you are agreeing though with the basic idea. Not needing them to fill those holes in your life that you (general you) should be filling for yourself.

There are plenty out there trying to fill their holes with a man or woman. I'm sure you've met some! 

That's all it really means. 

I know but I'm referring to when a man laments to his girlfriend or wife that he doesn't feel "needed" by her, it's something that needs to be taken seriously. Imo.

There is the opposite side of the coin to what you posted above about women trying to fill holes through men, it could be any man.

That being there are women who don't need men (or rather the man she's romantically involved with) at all, she's  completely self-sufficient in every way. Emotionally, financially, perhaps even physically.

I've talked with men who are experiencing this. 

So why is he there?  For sex?  As her +1 at events?  I have heard men say this. 

IDK, perhaps I'm missing something but people DO need people imo and we shouldn't be ashamed to say so. 

[mylolita]

I think @rainbowsandroses what others are saying here seems to be that you shouldn’t financially depend on a man? Am I right? Is this all coming down to money? 
 

Well, we can confirm that one straight away and say I absolutely depend and lean on my husband financially. How else could I not work and just be at home with the kids all day? Unless I inherited money or maybe was just from an old school wealthy family, or have investments that paid my way. 
 

My point is, just because now it’s like this, doesn’t mean my world would fall apart necessarily financially if something happened to me.

 

The presumption made is that just because you are relying on your husbands money (your money, by the way, legally, jointly) you are financially vulnerable. 
 

I accept that would maybe be the case for a section of women in low income households, yes. As you move up and gain assets, your life financially doesn’t fall apart in those same respects. 
 

So many of my friends who married bankers in the 80s and divorced. They had no careers for the most part but they all were left with houses worth millions by their ex husbands and all their kids still getting out through private school and big allowances. It was the man, actually, who was the vulnerable one.

 

A man who has assets is actually in quite a financially vulnerable position. I don’t class myself as in that position. Unless he goes completely bankrupt. Then we have to sell the business, all our art, our antiques and assets and collections and well, downgrade a little. 
 

x

[mylolita]

Truth be told, if my husband divorced me actually, the money side of it would potentially be low down on my priorities. It’s the fact my life and heart would be shattered, and our children no longer had two parents living together in a good place. 
 

I enjoy a great lifestyle and freedom as we are. Wasn’t always like this, might not be like this in 30 years time, who knows? 
 

Do I need to live by all this secure guarantee kind of anti-risk aversion? I don’t know.

 

In my opinion, my risk financially is low. And sadly, the problems of being financially dependent on a man are unfortunately often problems for women and couples with not much money. It’s a low income issue and for that I do feel very fortunate and privileged. I do live, a very privileged life. I never take that for granted. But this is not all there is to life either!

 

x

[itsallgrand]

11 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I know but I'm referring to when a man laments to his girlfriend or wife that he doesn't feel "needed" by her, it's something that needs to be taken seriously. Imo.

There is the opposite side of the coin to what you posted above about women trying to fill holes through men, it could be any man.

That being there are women who don't need men (or rather the man she's romantically involved with) at all, she's  completely self-sufficient in every way. Emotionally, financially, perhaps even physically.

I've talked with men who are experiencing this. 

So why is he there?  For sex?  As her +1 at events?  I have heard men say this. 

IDK, perhaps I'm missing something but people DO need people imo and we shouldn't be ashamed to say so. 

Hmm I haven't heard this often so I'm not sure. Could be these women are not really open and available for a relationship. Or maybe these men are looking for someone different than the personalities they are coming across. 

I'd have to hear what these men have to say, I guess.  

[boltnrun]

I don't "need" anyone with regard to directing me in my life. I do desire and crave to be near the man I'm in love with. I miss him when I don't get to see him. I enjoy spending time with him. I am affectionate and demonstrative with him. I am physically attracted to him. I want him to be happy and to feel good about himself and our relationship. I show him I love him in many ways. I want that connection. When my relationships ended I felt sad. I felt a sense of loss. I missed the emotional connection. I didn't miss his paycheck, it wasn't about that. So yes, I did connect emotionally with the men I fell in love with. 

But for the man I was dating to literally get upset because I changed my car battery myself instead of waiting three days for him to do it? Nah, not cool. And he got upset when I didn't run decisions by him such as going on a job interview or moving apartments. He felt I should have consulted him even though we didn't live together or share finances. It just seemed bizarre to me. Was he concerned out of caring? Perhaps. But he clearly stated I should have consulted with him because women need a man's guidance. Yes, he said that, except he used the word "girls" as in "Girls need men to tell them what to do because they're too emotional and they make bad decisions on their own." Yes, that bothered me. So in summary, we were not a good match. He did end up with a woman who deferred to him in all matters although interestingly he tried to cheat on her with me!

People want different things in their relationships. There's no one size fits all. 

[itsallgrand]

Boltrun, gross! Lol. I hate that crap too. 

I once had a man I was briefly dating tell me "already trying to direct the traffic" - meaning, he didn't like that I was assertive with physical affection. Like damn, yeah, I'm not the starfish type, wasn't used to anyone complaining about that lol. 

Compatibility is what it's all about. 

[Batya33]

47 minutes ago, itsallgrand said:

I know for a fact that I wouldn't be in a relationship as long as I have with my SO if he weren't fiercely independent and appreciated that in me too. It's a personality compatibility thing. We adore each other, and make an amazing team. That's actually one of the things my MIL regularly brings up " you work so well together!". 

We don't need each other strictly speaking. And there's huge comfort in that, for me. That doesn't mean we don't have each other's back or don't miss each other when we are apart. Us together is still stronger than us seperate. 

I'm not a rich career woman either. I'm just me. I like doing what I can for myself. I like being supported in that. 

We both had relationships prior where the other wanted something more traditional. It felt stifling. Like a weight. I mean, pretty much every day we sweet talk each other about how much we appreciate each other for being who we are. 

Things opening up just made it easier for people like me and him. I can't tell you how many men I briefly dated who wanted traditional roles. And hey, there are people out there for them. But I'm lucky I'm not stuck with that as my only choice! 

 

Same.  Need is not a basis or a focus or a motive as to why we're together.  That would feel icky. With exceptions -times of illness/big stresses/ that pesky pickle jar I couldn't open.  We do have somewhat traditional roles when it comes to cleaning/childcare/food prep.  But even when I was a SAHM for the first 7 years- now been working outside the home 7.5 years - I was financially independent and it was a great feeling.  If I was in the dating scene now I'd look for similar.

[yogacat]

Many people, regardless of their gender or income, can end up financially reliant on someone else. For example, if a couple with a high income lifestyle divorces and the wife has no job skills because she was dependent on her husband, she faces just as much financial risk as a woman dependent on a low-income man. And living a lavish lifestyle can make financial dependence even more precarious, as overspending and lifestyle creep can easily lead to problems if the main income source is suddenly lost.

As for whether this justifies women not delaying marriage or depending on a man for financial support, it varies for each person and their unique situation. So I don't think that this is a unique situation to lower income women or households.

[Batya33]

2 minutes ago, yogacat said:

Many people, regardless of their gender or income, can end up financially reliant on someone else. For example, if a couple with a high income lifestyle divorces and the wife has no job skills because she was dependent on her husband, she faces just as much financial risk as a woman dependent on a low-income man. And living a lavish lifestyle can make financial dependence even more precarious, as overspending and lifestyle creep can easily lead to problems if the main income source is suddenly lost.

As for whether this justifies women not delaying marriage or depending on a man for financial support, it varies for each person and their unique situation.

It's not about anything is possible.  I personally think it's very risky for a woman not to have her own $$$plus marketable skills to get a job if needed.  Bolt gave the example of her mother.  My dear friend went through exactly the same thing and 18 years post separation -and an empty nester -she still struggles financially. 

[rainbowsandroses]

12 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Need is not a basis or a focus or a motive as to why we're together.  That would feel icky.

Hi Bat.  For clarification purposes, what I posted below would feel "icky" to you?  

1 hour ago, rainbowsandroses said:

And if a woman involved with a man ever told me she doesn't 'need' her boyfriend or husband (for emotional support, for comfort, to enhance her life and bring her joy, among other things ), I'd have to question why she chooses to be in a relationship with him or married in the first place. 

I'm not judging, I simply need help understanding this, thanks. 

[Batya33]

6 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Hi Bat.  For clarification purposes, what I posted below would feel "icky" to you?  

I'm not judging, I simply need help understanding this, thanks. 

I was referring to what Itsallgrand and Bolt were describing.  What you wrote I want but I don't feel needy of those things.  I like how Itsallgrand replied to you.  Need is very different from want IMO and I check myself regularly when I think I "need" instead of want - as a way of getting perspective.  And being a better wife- so for example I feel I really really "need" my morning workout routine which my husband has to accommodate to a certain extent and I really appreciate it - but when it comes up in unusual situations I realize it's unfair to tell him I "need" it as that might trigger him to feel obligated etc - when I remind myself it's a want -the timing of my routine- and "need" is exaggerated -it means I'm more honest with him when I need an extra favor from him to accommodate. 

 I'm happy to an extent my 15 year old son needs me and his dad but my goal as  parent is to raise a resilient independent person overall.  

My husband and I go to each other for advice regularly - and we also have others to go to -it's a good thing that it's most often not in a needy way. It's a lot more attractive IMO.

[yogacat]

17 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

It's not about anything is possible.  I personally think it's very risky for a woman not to have her own $$$plus marketable skills to get a job if needed.  Bolt gave the example of her mother.  My dear friend went through exactly the same thing and 18 years post separation -and an empty nester -she still struggles financially. 

Oh. I agree with you!

I am just saying that it's not a unique situation to lower income women or households. I've seen firsthand very high income earners where the wife doesn't have any job skills or financial independence and ends up struggling after the marriage ends.

Now, of course you could say to her...well, downsizing could solve that as well, but it doesn't negate the fact that she may still struggle for a while until she can establish herself in the workforce. 

It's no surprise, women are still the marginally paid gender compared to the men in their husbands' lives.

Not all women of every race can easily replace the income. If these wives live with that insecurity and stay with the man they are with for years in his career in which she helps, finances stagnate as she moves further into it. That fun, 30's to 40's reading the want ads and looking endlessly for a new job. These unsung queens of dragon slayers of being good wife depart at the bottom.

Now, I feel that this is more of an issue of societal gender inequality and discrimination rather than simply a risk for women depending on men for financial support.

It's not the husband's fault if the wife is not able to find a job or make as much money due to societal factors. And if he's the main provider then of course she would be dependent on him financially. And if she has no good job skills then that's her responsibility to develop that.

Of course, it can be hard when say, the wife is a stay at home parent for a long time and hasn't been able to keep up with the current market but I don't think it's the worse thing in the world for her to make sure that she does have a solid education, marketable skills and so on since you never know what might happen in the future. And as we know, life can always throw curveballs.

As horrible as it is to say, you just can't trust that life-long happily ever afters will always be what it sounds because people and circumstances can and do change. 

[Batya33]

I was making a much narrower point as above.  Obviously there are individual situations.  I don't care to get into racial/societal/cultural aspects.  Especially given how measured my opinion was and it's simply that what I described is IMHO far riskier than "well you know the sky could fall".

In my unique situation I was quite unlucky and had the misfortune partly from my own doing not to attain my goal of happy marriage and motherhood till age 42.  The positive was I saved and saved and saved lots of $$$ for 11 years prior to marriage from my extremely long hours, hard work and because my parents saved me so much $ by letting me live at home rent free during grad school.  (I gave them presents later and a nice vacation!)

So by the time I was a SAHM I was set financially.  My husband thank goodness could provide no problem.  I contributed monthly because I wanted to and now I contribute my salary from my part time work.  My other job is taking on a lot of childcare stuff that is time consuming and because my husband does his best work at night and I am a morning person.  If heaven forbid something happened to him and he couldn't work we'd be fine on my salary plus my nest egg plus I've set myself up in my part time work to be able to transition to full time if needed. 

I remained in my field.  I'm well liked - and I would be totally good with going back to full time work if my family needed it.  I'm 57.  My financial people have told me for years I don't have to work given what I accomplished before marriage.  That's really comforting. I want to work though.  I loved being a SAHM the first 5.5 years. Then I was ready to go back part time.

But despite my unique situation my strong opinion is what I wrote to you in the previous post. If I were dating now I feel like a man would like how financially independent I am. The kind of man who would be a good match for me.

[rainbowsandroses]

25 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I was referring to what Itsallgrand and Bolt were describing.  What you wrote I want but I don't feel needy of those things.  I like how Itsallgrand replied to you.  Need is very different from want IMO and I check myself regularly when I think I "need" instead of want - as a way of getting perspective.  I'm happy to an extent my 15 year old son needs me and his dad but my goal as  parent is to raise a resilient independent person overall.  

My husband and I go to each other for advice regularly - and we also have others to go to -it's a good thing that it's most often not in a needy way. It's a lot more attractive IMO.

Fair enough. 

For me I am both independent and when involved with a particular man I care about and who cares about me, I don't think too much whether I "need" him for the the things I mentioned, or "want" him.

It's all the same to me.  I'm not ashamed of saying I need him, not that you or others are, but the word "needy" seems to conjure up so many negative emotions in people like it's a dirty word or something.

It's about balance.  Balancing my independence with my need for certain things from my partner, such as the things I mentioned.

And if such 'needs' weren't being met, I would have to consider ending the relationship because they're important to me when in a relationship.

Again, not for my survival, but to enhance our connection and build intimacy. 

I actually think we're all on the same page  but using different terms, need or want. 

Oh except I have NO idea how to change a car battery! Lol

If my boyfriend couldn't get around to doing it, I'd be calling AAA!  😀

 

 

 

 

 

[Batya33]

5 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Fair enough. 

For me I am both independent and when involved with a particular man I care about and who cares about me, I don't think too much whether I "need" him for the the things I mentioned, or "want" him.

It's all the same to me.  I'm not ashamed of saying I need him, not that you or others are, but the word "needy" seems to conjure up so many negative emotions in people like it's a dirty word or something.

It's about balance.  Balancing my independence and my need for certain things from my partner, such as the things I mentioned.

Again, not for my survival, but to enhance our connection and build intimacy. 

I actually think we're all on the same page  but using different terms, need or want. 

Oh except I have NO idea how to change a car battery! Lol

If my boyfriend couldn't get around to doing it, I'd be calling AAA!  😀

 

 

 

 

 

To me need and want are worlds apart and the distinctions to me are crucial and essential to a healthy relationship.. I wrote why above.  I needed my husband when I had a stroke and didn't know I was and had to be made to go to the ER.  I needed him to have a baby with him LOL and it sure was fun wanting to make that happen ;-).  He needed me to make all the calls and do all the things when his father died and he needed me to hold down the fort with our 4 year old when his mom died.  That was more like need because yes you can ask a friend, hire a nanny or sitter, pay someone to call everyone about the funeral and mourning period but I feel like at those times -yes -you need your spouse by your side -it's so intimate and personal.  

But totally -you do you!  I mean I know of extremes where the sweet woman whispers her restaurant order to her boyfriend because she needs him to order for her -she's just the woman and bless her heart she wants her manly man to make it happen.  An extreme.  An icky one. And yes a real life example.

[boltnrun]

9 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Oh except I have NO idea how to change a car battery! Lol

If my boyfriend couldn't get around to doing it, I'd be calling AAA!  😀

It's not as easy as it used to be. Years ago it was as simple as disconnecting the battery terminals, removing the dead battery and placing the new one on the tray and reconnecting everything. Nowadays they often have the battery in an inaccessible place or they have it connected with hardware that requires special tools. I also used to change out the air filter myself but they did the same thing with special hardware in many newer cars. It's just to get you to have to pay a mechanic to do these things. 

To me I define "need" as something that's essential for survival. Do I enjoy being in love? Of course! But I didn't die when my exes broke up with me (or I chose to stop seeing them). With one ex in particular I felt like I wanted to die for a few weeks but I didn't literally die. 

[rainbowsandroses]

8 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

To me need and want are worlds apart and the distinctions to me are crucial and essential to a healthy relationship.. I wrote why above.  I needed my husband when I had a stroke and didn't know I was and had to be made to go to the ER.  I needed him to have a baby with him LOL and it sure was fun wanting to make that happen ;-).  He needed me to make all the calls and do all the things when his father died and he needed me to hold down the fort with our 4 year old when his mom died.  That was more like need because yes you can ask a friend, hire a nanny or sitter, pay someone to call everyone about the funeral and mourning period but I feel like at those times -yes -you need your spouse by your side -it's so intimate and personal.  

But totally -you do you!  I mean I know of extremes where the sweet woman whispers her restaurant order to her boyfriend because she needs him to order for her -she's just the woman and bless her heart she wants her manly man to make it happen.  An extreme.  An icky one. And yes a real life example.

I edited my post adding that if my 'needs,' the ones I mentioned (emotional support, comfort, safety, enhancing my life and bringing me joy) weren't being met, I would reconsider remaining in the relationship.

Since these aren't your 'needs' per se, but rather 'wants' I'm curious what you would do?

As Mick Jagger wrote "you can't always get what you want." 😀

 

[rainbowsandroses]

9 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

To me I define "need" as something that's essential for survival. 

Thank you, this^ was helpful!

I don't see it that way, but it helps in understanding the perspective.

To me, they are simply things I need in the relationship to remain happy and fulfilled while in the relationship.

 

[yogacat]

28 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I was making a much narrower point as above.  Obviously there are individual situations.  I don't care to get into racial/societal/cultural aspects.  Especially given how measured my opinion was and it's simply that what I described is IMHO far riskier than "well you know the sky could fall".

I'm really not sure for the tone I got from you but, frankly, I was replying in response to you quoting my post. I posted my reply while you were typing yours. I understand your situation. I understand your concern.

I don't disagree that it is important for women to have financial independence and marketable skills. I just felt that your statement was a bit limiting and didn't acknowledge the broader societal factors at play.

That's all.

But that's just my opinion. I'm not trying to discount your experiences or opinions, just adding my own perspective.

[Batya33]

Just now, rainbowsandroses said:

I edited my post adding that if my 'needs,' the ones I mentioned (emotional support, comfort, safety, enhancing my life and bringing me joy) weren't being met, I would reconsider remaining in the relationship.

Since these aren't your 'needs' per se, but rather 'wants' I'm curious what you would do?

As Mick Jagger wrote "we can't always get what we want." 😀

 

LOL love that song. I had my list of musts -  but if I didn't get those then I didn't date the person or continue the relationship - dating and marriage are optional.  To me what you listed are wants -what you want out of a relationship.  It's individual to you.  If you didn't get those things you as you wrote would reconsider. 

For example my friend froze her eggs then met her forever person in her late 30s.  They married. He said he wanted kids.  They still had time to conceive naturally.  But he changed his mind and no longer wanted kids.  As of 5 years ago or so she was still with him.  I wouldn't have been I'm quite sure.  Dealbreaker.  Did I "need" my son for survival? No.  Did I want a child more than I'd wanted to stay in a relationship where the man changed his mind like that? Oh yes. I'd have been gone I bet.  Bye!!

 Believe me I say I desperately NEED me time.  It feels that way! But it's the wrong way to put it or think about it.  I want it.  Badly.  But still a want. My son needed me to take him to urgent care in January when I was solo parenting and he was oddly ill.

That was a need - I mean what would he have done - knocked on a neighbor's door and asked for help when he's sick? That's - a need.  And he trusts me to fill those sorts of needs.  To get him to school.  To pay for school.  But I tell him regularly not to say he "needs" Robux, or needs some fancy brand of tea lol.  Or organic deodorant.  I will not allow him to believe wants are needs.  I see it's not as important to you -the distinction.  To me it is all across life and relationships.

[Batya33]

6 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Thank you, this^ was helpful!

I don't see it that way, but it helps in understanding the perspective.

To me, they are simply things I need in the relationship to remain happy and fulfilled while in the relationship.

 

Yes you have requirements.  If those requirements aren't met you are not happy - but those requirements are wants not needs because the consequence is if he doesn't do what you want in those areas you're leaving or likely leaving. OK so - that's the consequence.  So you move on.  By contrast if he won't let you out of the home to go food shopping or order food and he puts locks on all his food then you need him to free you so you won't starve.  Then you're not getting what you need -a person who doesn't threaten you with physical harm that can be far longer lasting than simply walking away from a relationship -or emotional harm.  I need to work with a boss who will not overpower me physically if I miss a deadline because that's my physical safety -or who will not go to lengths of emotional bullying or harassment where I'd have PTSD.  That's where it goes to need not want.  

You want to be happy and feel fulfilled in a relationship. In the old days you'd have been seen moreso as being a princess to say you "needed" those things - some would say what?? You married a good man who gave you babies/a nice home/provides for you financially - huh? you "need" to feel "fulfilled??" What hogwash woman -you're married and a respectable member of society and a mother!! Nowadays it's often described as "needs" just like for some reason "work life balance" (whatever the heck that really means) is described as a need.  To me they are wants and it's not semantics. 

I am happy and fulfilled and respected the vast majority of the time.  I'm good.  If I wasn't obviously it would have to be addressed.  

[Batya33]

14 minutes ago, yogacat said:

I'm really not sure for the tone I got from you but, frankly, I was replying in response to you quoting my post. I posted my reply while you were typing yours. I understand your situation. I understand your concern.

I don't disagree that it is important for women to have financial independence and marketable skills. I just felt that your statement was a bit limiting and didn't acknowledge the broader societal factors at play.

That's all.

But that's just my opinion. I'm not trying to discount your experiences or opinions, just adding my own perspective.

I don't agree with all that you see as societal and I don't agree with most of your generalizations and extremes.  All else equal given the choice I think a woman should be in a position where she can get a decently paying job if needed and build her own savings.  And not rely fully on a man.  think it's fine if she does completely rely on a man financially for whatever reason under the sun.  It's just far riskier to do so IMO -never said it was wrong - you're assuming I did -if a woman chooses to be totally reliant on her husband that's cool -and to me it's far riskier.  Not wrong.

I'm not a fan of absolving individual responsibility in favor of blaming society/culture and on and on.  All else equal I think those factors should be blamed as a last resort if at all.  Not a fan of unnecessary victimhood especially since marriage and kids are often optional with rare exception.  I could have played the victim card many times and I try hard not to.  I still can.  I got my part time job that really is my dream job a couple of days after my 50th birthday.  When so many women and some men blame "society" for discriminating against older people returning to the workforce. I conceived at age 41 and was a victim of my biological clock and geriatric pregnancy. Except I wasn't really cause part of why I was so damn old was I'd gotten in my own way.  I could have spent my nest egg on lots of fancy stuff or fancy decorating of a home etc then whined about how I did it because of societal pressure from suburban mommies.  And on and on.  Just personally more of a fan of individual resilience and accountability.  

I think in modern dating people go too quickly to the pity party/victim card -I had to resist doing so when I dated cause I wanted to get married and not be jaded and cynical.