Modern Dating: The Evolution of Courtship for Men and Women

[Lily Aldridge]

Traditional courtship seems to be taking a backseat to more casual hangouts. I had been active in dating these past few weeks, and all I got was chill with guys for a few dates, and thats just it. It seems like a cycle now, and I'm on the verge of giving up. 

[mylolita]

This is moving towards dating I apologise but thought it might be interesting to anyone looking to fall in love and stay in love - or dating with the aim of a serious relationship.

 

I haven’t watched it yet; but it spiked my interested! 
 

Anyway, this is what’s in the headphones this morning!

 

x

 

[Batya33]

4 hours ago, Lily Aldridge said:

Traditional courtship seems to be taking a backseat to more casual hangouts. I had been active in dating these past few weeks, and all I got was chill with guys for a few dates, and thats just it. It seems like a cycle now, and I'm on the verge of giving up. 

So just say no. In the 80s/90s/early 2000s I used to decline dates for a weekend night if he didn't call me -on a landline! (for much of that time) - by Wednesday evening.  And in many cases after I declined and simply said I was busy - poof he called very early in advance for the following week or asked when I might be free-even though apparently many women were content to be treated as last minute B or C backup plans.  I loved spontaneity -but not as far as early courting/dating - show me you want to make sure I'm free on a weekend night and have a real plan -expensive or free or whatever  

I'm sorry -dating is so hard and requires a thick skin -was in the trenches for many years.

[Sindy_0311]

 

6 hours ago, Lily Aldridge said:

I had been active in dating these past few weeks, and all I got was chill with guys for a few dates, and thats just it. It seems like a cycle now, and I'm on the verge of giving up. 

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

So just say no

Agree. Why do you accept it if it bothers you? I always suggest going out for a drink, a walk, a movie first. And then we can go back home and cuddle etc... With some exceptions: when I feel tired from work and don't feel like going out again, like last Monday. I had a date with a guy I'm casually seeing, he came over. I asked him to bring drinks and he did and also bought us some sushis which I didn't expect. Last week he had tickets to go to a sports event he bought a long time ago and unfortunately for the both of us, it was our last night of the week without our kids. So he asked whether he could come over at 10pm after the event. I told him no, because I don't like it so late. He didn't come. Create your own culture. If it's bothers you, then just don't do it. This will help you filter guy's true intentions even better. 

[yogacat]

@bluecastleI think that subset (lower divorce rates) might include a good chunk of millennials because of financial concerns. Marriages are becoming harder for their generation -- many of them are carrying significant amounts of student debt. This puts a lot of pressure on their relationships and can often lead to divorce 'down the road.'

Millennials are choosing to delay marriage (like you said, delaying marriage = delayed divorce), and one factor behind this trend could be financial limitations. In turn a postponement of divorce, which could be a contributing factor to the decline in divorce rates. Opting to postpone divorce may be causing the decrease in divorce rates.

[Batya33]

9 minutes ago, yogacat said:

@bluecastleI think that subset (lower divorce rates) might include a good chunk of millennials because of financial concerns. Marriages are becoming harder for their generation -- many of them are carrying significant amounts of student debt. This puts a lot of pressure on their relationships and can often lead to divorce 'down the road.'

Millennials are choosing to delay marriage (like you said, delaying marriage = delayed divorce), and one factor behind this trend could be financial limitations. In turn a postponement of divorce, which could be a contributing factor to the decline in divorce rates. Opting to postpone divorce may be causing the decrease in divorce rates.

I'd be interested to know if the study included the ages of the people marrying.  If it did and I missed it, sorry! My parents had zero $ when they married - mom a recent college grad and dad a recent med school grad.  They made it work.  

[yogacat]

13 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I'd be interested to know if the study included the ages of the people marrying.  If it did and I missed it, sorry! My parents had zero $ when they married - mom a recent college grad and dad a recent med school grad.  They made it work.  

My parents did too (had $0) but they divorced.

My mother's grandparents, alternatively, had 7 children, very little money and managed to stick together. I don't believe there's any way to define a single cause of or cure for divorce.

My great grandparents (on my Mom's side) are on the list at Ellis Island as immigrants. These were very rough going for families. Yet they endured and stayed together. 

I think that the majority of millennial marriages are just so much more expensive than previous generations, it's more common for them to delay.  When you're carrying significant student debt and struggling to make ends meet, marriage is often put on the back burner.

Less people are getting married overall and there is a smaller pool of people to divorce. People can make it work, but it certainly adds a lot of strain. Keep in mind, generations ago are very different from this one and people had different values + different expectations for different things. Cost of living then versus now 100 years later have also changed significantly.

It's all relative to the time period and the social circumstances.

I think it's definitely a factor that's contributing to the decline in divorce rates. There are likely other factors at play as well, such as changing attitudes towards marriage and divorce, and more access to education and resources on relationships and communication. It's really difficult to pinpoint a single cause for something like the declining divorce rates, as there are likely multiple factors at play. But I do think that financial concerns are definitely a significant factor for many millennials. And, millennials are getting married later and later, which could also be a contributing factor to the overall decline in divorce rates. 

Again, I think that factors like changing societal values and norms, improved access to education and resources, and a better understanding of relationships and communication could also be playing a role in the declining divorce rates among millennials. It's likely a combination of various factors, including financial challenges and changing attitudes towards marriage and divorce. Ultimately, it's a complex issue and I don't think there is one clear answer to explain the decline in divorce rates among millennials.

Millennials are America’s largest generation.

[Wiseman2]

11 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

.Marriage Rates are Up, and Divorce Rates are Down, New Data Shows

The article was about CDC data that simply stated that marriages are back to pre Covid levels. It doesn't seem like an overall trend or that people are dating more seriously. 

[Batya33]

15 minutes ago, yogacat said:

My parents did too (had $0) but they divorced.

My mother's grandparents, alternatively, had 7 children, very little money and managed to stick together. I don't believe there's any way to define a single cause of or cure for divorce.

My great grandparents (on my Mom's side) are on the list at Ellis Island as immigrants. These were very rough going for families. Yet they endured and stayed together. 

I think that the majority of millennial marriages are just so much more expensive than previous generations, it's more common for them to delay.  When you're carrying significant student debt and struggling to make ends meet, marriage is often put on the back burner.

Less people are getting married overall and there is a smaller pool of people to divorce. People can make it work, but it certainly adds a lot of strain. Keep in mind, generations ago are very different from this one and people had different values + different expectations for different things. Cost of living then versus now 100 years later have also changed significantly.

It's all relative to the time period and the social circumstances.

I think it's definitely a factor that's contributing to the decline in divorce rates. There are likely other factors at play as well, such as changing attitudes towards marriage and divorce, and more access to education and resources on relationships and communication. It's really difficult to pinpoint a single cause for something like the declining divorce rates, as there are likely multiple factors at play. But I do think that financial concerns are definitely a significant factor for many millennials. And, millennials are getting married later and later, which could also be a contributing factor to the overall decline in divorce rates. 

Again, I think that factors like changing societal values and norms, improved access to education and resources, and a better understanding of relationships and communication could also be playing a role in the declining divorce rates among millennials. It's likely a combination of various factors, including financial challenges and changing attitudes towards marriage and divorce. Ultimately, it's a complex issue and I don't think there is one clear answer to explain the decline in divorce rates among millennials.

Millennials are America’s largest generation.

I think financial factors were extremely significant when my friends started getting married in the late 80s/early 90s. My wedding was very inexpensive. The wedding reception is the party not the ceremony.

Also Ellis Island in my family.  My parents were married for 62 years and my grandparents for over 50 - until death.  I know of many divorces in all generations. My sister is divorced and she married in her early 20s.  My niece is in her late 20s, mom of 3 boys, married almost 10 years.  Happy! Marriage and divorce are complex.  So is dating and not just now.  I love being married and I think the institution of marriage is wonderful and other than in green card marriages not just a piece of paper. I don't think marriage is for everyone -it's complex!

[Coily]

12 hours ago, bluecastle said:

Curious what you mean by this. 

As I see it, men being antagonistic toward women is hardly a new paradigm. Historically, it has been the norm: men viewing and treating women as inferior, lesser, as objects, and so on. The difference is that this is now unacceptable—and that many women will be more assertive (as men have long been) in demanding they get treated as they feel they deserve. 

But I do agree that there's a lot of heightened sensitivity, raw nerves, and timidity surrounding all this friction. Optimistic view is: growing pains, an adjustment, etc. Less optimistic view is: the age of social media distorts and magnifies in ways that makes everyone a little batty. Verdict is out, I suppose. 

One thing I've found myself thinking of with this thread: For all the pitfalls of dating—and pitfalls are hardly new to dating—there are signs that relationships are improving. The divorce rate is down in the US, for example, and some have commented that may be due to people being more intentional in relationships—and waiting longer to marry. So while the rites and rituals of courtship may be all sorts of discombobulated, perhaps actual relationships are evolving to be more equal and fulfilling? 

I can’t fully agree with your historical assessment, specifically I wouldn’t call that antagonism between the sexes, rather the cultural norms and etiquette of the day. Something which we in this modern era may recoil at, but we have views that break hard from the past millennia; for good or ill.

To the real crux of what we are discussing here.

One of the key differences that separate this era from the past is that antagonism used to be more broken down by class, race, culture, and religion; but pure antagonism by Sex on such a wide scale is relatively new.

What used to be fringe ideologues like Andrew Tate and Andrea Dworkin, have come to the fore front of public thought. Brotater and his pick-up artist horse droppings, have encouraged men to view women only as conquest opportunities. And Dworkin championed the school of thought that: “Intercourse is the pure, sterile, formal expression of men's contempt for women; but that contempt can turn gothic and express itself in many sexual and sadistic practices that eschew intercourse per se.” Intercourse 1987 

Radical elements of feminism spawn MGTOW; where neither values what the opposite sex brings as individuals. There is a constant cycle of radicalization between the sexes in social media, that fuel the self justification of hating the other. The infantile notion that one side has to be a hate group if it opposes something that is one’s personal pet cause.

Then events like MeToo, which should have brought to light and curtailed awful sexist practices, instead became compromised crusade to further sew distrust between the sexes. So often what should be a unifying moment either becomes exposed as false, or weaponized. While none of this is particularly new in human existence, what is new is the reach and depth of impact on people that are least effected.

All of this, to me, makes a lot of people to fear the opposite sex; without any justification. This blind fear makes courtship and dating a bizarre and twisted reflection of past practices. Something that makes it hard to navigate.

The end result? No idea. I just commenting on my impressions of why there is more open antagonism between the sexes.  

[boltnrun]

That makes me sad. I neither fear nor hate the male gender. I think men are beautiful, just as I think women are beautiful. In some similar and some very different ways. And I love the differences. I don't want to date a man who acts like a woman. If I wanted that I would just date women. However I am fine with however someone chooses to conduct themselves as long as it's done with kindness and a genuine caring for others. 

I see good, kind people of all ages and all socioeconomic ranges. And I see attractive people across the board.

I choose to love, celebrate and admire others, not hate them or fear they're out to get me. 

I have two friends who constantly state "everyone's an a-hole" and "I hate people". How sad. 

[Coily]

1 minute ago, boltnrun said:

That makes me sad. I neither fear nor hate the male gender. I think men are beautiful, just as I think women are beautiful. In some similar and some very different ways. And I love the differences. I don't want to date a man who acts like a woman. If I wanted that I would just date women. However I am fine with however someone chooses to conduct themselves as long as it's done with kindness and a genuine caring for others. 

I see good, kind people of all ages and all socioeconomic ranges. And I see attractive people across the board.

I choose to love, celebrate and admire others, not hate them or fear they're out to get me. 

I have two friends who constantly state "everyone's an a-hole" and "I hate people". How sad. 

Same!!! I find it really bothersome that some people just have such hate in their souls and are trying to foster it among other. And tragic that some people are swayed by it. There are so many bad actors out there who push their vile attitudes for fame and fortune, or who will flame the fires of fate for clout in small circles.

We need more cautious optimism.

 

[yogacat]

39 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I think financial factors were extremely significant when my friends started getting married in the late 80s/early 90s. My wedding was very inexpensive. The wedding reception is the party not the ceremony.

Also Ellis Island in my family.  My parents were married for 62 years and my grandparents for over 50 - until death.  I know of many divorces in all generations. My sister is divorced and she married in her early 20s.  My niece is in her late 20s, mom of 3 boys, married almost 10 years.  Happy! Marriage and divorce are complex.  So is dating and not just now.  I love being married and I think the institution of marriage is wonderful and other than in green card marriages not just a piece of paper. I don't think marriage is for everyone -it's complex!

Neat! I love to hear stories of marriages that have lasted for so long. But of course, as you mentioned, marriage is not for everyone and it's a complex issue. It's great to see young couples making it work and finding happiness in their relationships, though.

I was going to go out on a limb and say that maybe (switching back to the concept of "Netflix and Chill") that maybe we hear most about dating issues from the millennial generation? Maybe given the financial constraints for that generation, Netflix and chill may be a popular dating option because it's affordable and easy to do at home. But then again, there's plenty to do for free. Maybe I'm reaching on this point.

Maybe media is just more accessible; but I feel like with all sorts of social media, there's more of a phase where people on the cusp of things that we hear about. The older generations were a little more chill and focused on traditional romance.

[DarkCh0c0]

1 hour ago, boltnrun said:

That makes me sad. I neither fear nor hate the male gender. I think men are beautiful, just as I think women are beautiful. In some similar and some very different ways. And I love the differences. I don't want to date a man who acts like a woman. If I wanted that I would just date women. However I am fine with however someone chooses to conduct themselves as long as it's done with kindness and a genuine caring for others. 

I'm the same. I think a good majority of us agree with your pov. The people I know who trash the other gender are projecting from their own bad experiences and making generalisations. It's easier for them to trash all men than admit that their picker is off, they like bad/frat boys, their standards are low or even they are just toxic people by themselves.

[Batya33]

17 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

I'm the same. I think a good majority of us agree with your pov. The people I know who trash the other gender are projecting from their own bad experiences and making generalisations. It's easier for them to trash all men than admit that their picker is off, they like bad/frat boys, their standards are low or even they are just toxic people by themselves.

Yes and in particular women who regret having casual sex painting all men as "players" or having used them.

[DarkCh0c0]

3 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Yes and in particular women who regret having casual sex painting all men as "players" or having used them.

100%

It's all projections to get the easy way out. Such attitude does not support finding a healthy partner nor the enjoyment of the dating process. That's applicable for both men and women.

[rainbowsandroses]

2 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Yes and in particular women who regret having casual sex painting all men as "players" or having used them.

I mentioned this earlier but there's a basic lack of trust on both sides. 

The manosphere was mentioned earlier by Wiseman2 and @Coilywith some detail and it's very very true. 

For women there's a site "Female Dating Strategy" where the posts about their hatred of men is enough to make one literally want to vomit. 

Out of curiosity I read some of the posts and couldn't stomach it for more than five minutes, it's vile!

This is what we're dealing with in today's dating environment.

I don't have the answer except what I suggested earlier about at least trying to understand each other versus hating and fighting.

I have no idea how to achieve that except perhaps communicating more instead of making assumptions, sneaking behind your partner's back for information, letting go of past hurts and trusting each other more unless and until the particular person you're dating and getting to know gives you reason not to. 

 

 

 

[Batya33]

12 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

100%

It's all projections to get the easy way out. Such attitude does not support finding a healthy partner nor the enjoyment of the dating process. That's applicable for both men and women.

Yes including people who settle for "situationships" to be cool and not admit to themselves they want a proper date.  It's self honesty that is needed -I'm sure situationships and spending time crafting euphemisms about "benefits" works for some 😉

[mylolita]

38 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

I'm the same. I think a good majority of us agree with your pov. The people I know who trash the other gender are projecting from their own bad experiences and making generalisations. It's easier for them to trash all men than admit that their picker is off, they like bad/frat boys, their standards are low or even they are just toxic people by themselves.

Amen amen amen amen!!!

 

x

[bluecastle]

1 hour ago, Coily said:

I can’t fully agree with your historical assessment, specifically I wouldn’t call that antagonism between the sexes, rather the cultural norms and etiquette of the day.

I think this is a case where "cultural norms and etiquette" is a synonym (or euphemism) for "antagonism." And while I in no way mean to point a finger at you here—I love your posts and vibe!—I do think part of the present friction stems from an unwillingness (mainly in men) to just call it like that. To say: Yeah, women have had the short end of the stick for millennia, been objectified and treated as lesser by men, that sucks, it leaves a mark, and so on. When that can't be common ground, grievances expand, get misdirected, and tensions are magnified. 

That said, I very much agree with the idea that we're in a moment of knee-jerk reactivity and black-and-white thinking. No text back in two hours? Ghosted! Don't agree with my point of view? Gaslighter! Forgot to empty the dishwasher? Covert narcissist! The default language has become increasingly incendiary, which doesn't bode well for sincere connectivity, since language is the tool we all use to make sense of the world around us. 

[yogacat]

14 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I mentioned this earlier but there's a basic lack of trust on both sides. 

The manosphere was mentioned earlier by Wiseman2 and @Coilywith some detail and it's very very true. 

For women there's a site "Female Dating Strategy" where the posts about their hatred of men is enough to make one literally want to vomit. 

Out of curiosity I read some of the posts and couldn't stomach it for more than five minutes, it's vile!

This is what we're dealing with in today's dating environment.

I don't have the answer except what I suggested earlier about at least trying to understand each other versus hating and fighting.

I have no idea how to achieve that except perhaps communicating more instead of making assumptions, sneaking behind your partner's back for information, letting go of past hurts and trusting each other more unless and until the particular person you're dating and getting to know gives you reason not to. 

Can't get bogged down in that though.

I have as much interest reading or even glancing at hate forums than I would hitting myself in the head with a hammer.  It's just... nope--I can only control my own interactions and behavior. The trust might come with time. I was single for years and learned to trust myself and only once I truly trusted myself could I trust someone else. I am also not a part of who has the problem. "He" really does. 😂

[mylolita]

31 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Yes and in particular women who regret having casual sex painting all men as "players" or having used them.

AMEN! 
 

x

[mylolita]

Dating well is taking educated risks; in a way. 
 

You can never be 100% sure on anyone. No one is ever 100% good, either. 
 

You have to be able to judge what is best for you and what is, sorry to parrot this, I am kind of saying this ironically but, what is “your truth”. You can only please yourself. You have to live your life for yourself, not to appease other people or subscribe to what should be done or you think is right or is now or is the “done” thing to do.

 

I think those sites, they are there for a reason. The grievances have an undercurrent of truth. They aren’t all totally wrong. People get bitten a few times and it can turn some people very cynical and jaded very quickly. Not saying this is correct but, it’s just a fact. 
 

There have always been differences and grievances between the sexes. We are, after all, generally very different. That’s what makes the other side need the opposite team, in my opinion.

 

Men can to some extent live without women, but would they really want too? And vice versa? 
 

We need each other to mutually exist. There will always be these fringe extremists for everything and anything. I don’t even think it should be damned. I think we can learn a lot from very different points of view, they are important. 

 

You have to choose well in a partner, realise your time on this planet is limited, realise you aren’t perfect and neither will be your partner. If you want something, form your own personal strategy to go put it into action and cross your fingers, your toes, your dating profile or whatever,  and hope it works! 
 

x

[yogacat]

22 minutes ago, bluecastle said:

I think this is a case where "cultural norms and etiquette" is a synonym (or euphemism) for "antagonism." And while I in no way mean to point a finger at you here—I love your posts and vibe!—I do think part of the present friction stems from an unwillingness (mainly in men) to just call it like that. To say: Yeah, women have had the short end of the stick for millennia, been objectified and treated as lesser by men, that sucks, it leaves a mark, and so on. When that can't be common ground, grievances expand, get misdirected, and tensions are magnified. 

That said, I very much agree with the idea that we're in a moment of knee-jerk reactivity and black-and-white thinking. No text back in two hours? Ghosted! Don't agree with my point of view? Gaslighter! Forgot to empty the dishwasher? Covert narcissist! The default language has become increasingly incendiary, which doesn't bode well for sincere connectivity, since language is the tool we all use to make sense of the world around us. 

I completely agree with your points about knee-jerk reactions and snap judgments. On the caveat that gaslighting and narcissism are very real and not made up online terms. I do think that examining our own knee-jerk reactions and taking a step back to see things in a more nuanced light can lead to more productive and respectful communication. 

[mylolita]

Just now, yogacat said:

I completely agree with your points about knee-jerk reactions and snap judgments. On the caveat that gaslighting and narcissism are very real and not made up online terms. I do think that examining our own knee-jerk reactions and taking a step back to see things in a more nuanced light can lead to more productive and respectful communication. 

Darn toot in’!

 

x