Modern Dating: The Evolution of Courtship for Men and Women

[Wiseman2]

36 minutes ago, bluecastle said:

. No text back in two hours? Ghosted! Don't agree with my point of view? Gaslighter! Forgot to empty the dishwasher? Covert narcissist! The default language has become increasingly incendiary, which doesn't bode well for sincere connectivity, since language is the tool we all use to make sense of the world around us. 

Agree. Everyone is using and misusing terms as almost an epidemic. Too many armchair psychiatrists pretending they know the DSM and everyone they're having an issue with is in there.

For example everyone's ex has a cluster B personality disorder.  And that language is  hyperbole and antagonistic not to mention unenlightened.   

[boltnrun]

Sometimes a guy I like doesn't like me back. It doesn't mean he's a narcissist or he has bipolar or BPD. 

My husband didn't "court" me, I guess. But he frequently bought me flowers and he bought me a car before we even got engaged. I considered those things romantic and signs he cared. Oh, and I cooked for him and helped him get a job where I was working. Was that "courting"? IDK 

Oh, and is it only on men to do this "courting" thingy or can women do it too?

[yogacat]

True. ^^

I think the danger in that is that it initially goes underground. Constructive communication is further muffled.

So, someone that may very well be experiencing abuse is reprimanded for "playing the victim". Which, sometimes people do play victim to manipulate or hide their own actions.

It is definitely a fine line to walk, but I agree that taking a step back and examining situations can lead to better understanding and communication overall. It's just that we have to be careful to not minimize or silence valid experiences in doing so. It's a delicate balance.

[Wiseman2]

16 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

 bought me flowers 

Oh but there's hyperbole for that too. "Love bombing ".  Lol 

[mylolita]

I mean, sorry to get into this again but I must note - quite alarmingly often, we have young men come on here every couple of weeks claiming to be so fed up, so lonely, and even suicidal sometimes, due to not being able to successfully date. They feel at odds with it all, to say the least.

 

I am ashamed to say personally; I see responses to these men along the lines of “manosphere”, “incel” and also just brush them off as “trolling”. 
 

These are supposed young men with real and hurting grievances and they come here in my experience actually respectfully asking for insight, to get mocked; instantly brushed aside.

 

Just gets labelled toxic straight away. 
 

I think it strikes a chord with me on a personally level because my thoughts regarding traditionalism have been brushed aside and labelled toxic too. Simply dismissed because it’s all seen as unsavoury and not politically correct. 
 

Just putting these observations out there. I think we are often quick to judge if something seems “extreme”. 
 

If it’s pitched as “let’s just all get along let’s love each other let’s make peace let’s look to understand” and many other platitudes, the applause comes thick and fast, but it is very easy to say all that, and give no actual or practical rules and advice on how to go about achieving it.

 

To me, it’s like standing up and saying, “I want peace on earth” and everyone patting each other on the back. Of course we do, ideally - but this is the real world. 
 

I think it’s quite a fair comment to say that quite a big chunk of young men these days feel, for whatever reason, disenfranchised and left behind or, unseen, and part of that reason is people brushing it under the carpet and saying it’s bad don’t say that goodbye and block!

 

x

[Coily]

1 hour ago, bluecastle said:

I think this is a case where "cultural norms and etiquette" is a synonym (or euphemism) for "antagonism." And while I in no way mean to point a finger at you here—I love your posts and vibe!—I do think part of the present friction stems from an unwillingness (mainly in men) to just call it like that. To say: Yeah, women have had the short end of the stick for millennia, been objectified and treated as lesser by men, that sucks, it leaves a mark, and so on. When that can't be common ground, grievances expand, get misdirected, and tensions are magnified. 

That said, I very much agree with the idea that we're in a moment of knee-jerk reactivity and black-and-white thinking. No text back in two hours? Ghosted! Don't agree with my point of view? Gaslighter! Forgot to empty the dishwasher? Covert narcissist! The default language has become increasingly incendiary, which doesn't bode well for sincere connectivity, since language is the tool we all use to make sense of the world around us. 

Again I strongly and respectfully disagree, mostly due to my background in the professional history field. What we may deem barbaric, could given at any point in time or culture be considered highly complimentary. What is someone's oppression is considered liberating by another. Our historical perspectives are generally only as long as the years we have put on, so what is our common and accepted narrative is biased.

As to have women, from the modern perspective been treated as the "other" sure. I think where the push back occurs is when it's perceived or openly declared (Clementine Ford) as revenge against men. It only takes one bitter pill in either bottle to put everyone on edge.

I also think that a lot of people, even some on here, just want to wind others up for some perverse pleasure. They will make leading statements or willingly attribute the worst intentions, when most people only catch a glimpse of someone on their worst day.

I'd much rather just mind my own business and let everyone be.

[rainbowsandroses]

37 minutes ago, mylolita said:

I am ashamed to say personally; I see responses to these men along the lines of “manosphere”, “incel” and also just brush them off as “trolling”. 

These are supposed young men with real and hurting grievances and they come here in my experience actually respectfully asking for insight, to get mocked; instantly brushed aside.

I agree @mylolitaand I am also ashamed to admit that re what's bolded, I have felt the same (past tense).  Not so much trolling (although that happens) but having "issues" within themselves (insecurity/anxiety) and/or not having the confidence and strength to make things "work."

As if it's their job to make things work!  I used to liken this to perhaps not having a strong male role model to guide them - a father, an uncle, a close family friend.  JMO on that.

My current attitude is about such gender roles being more multidimensional and that both men and women are responsible for "making things work."  Equal participation in the process, in different ways or sometimes even in the same way.  

It's often NOT pleasant reading the so-called "hate" forums (on both sides) but I do believe they are what many real men and women are experiencing and it's good imo to stay aware of what's happening so as to better understand each other.

 

[yogacat]

52 minutes ago, mylolita said:

I mean, sorry to get into this again but I must note - quite alarmingly often, we have young men come on here every couple of weeks claiming to be so fed up, so lonely, and even suicidal sometimes, due to not being able to successfully date. They feel at odds with it all, to say the least.

 

I am ashamed to say personally; I see responses to these men along the lines of “manosphere”, “incel” and also just brush them off as “trolling”. 
 

These are supposed young men with real and hurting grievances and they come here in my experience actually respectfully asking for insight, to get mocked; instantly brushed aside.

 

Just gets labelled toxic straight away. 
 

I think it strikes a chord with me on a personally level because my thoughts regarding traditionalism have been brushed aside and labelled toxic too. Simply dismissed because it’s all seen as unsavoury and not politically correct. 
 

Just putting these observations out there. I think we are often quick to judge if something seems “extreme”. 
 

If it’s pitched as “let’s just all get along let’s love each other let’s make peace let’s look to understand” and many other platitudes, the applause comes thick and fast, but it is very easy to say all that, and give no actual or practical rules and advice on how to go about achieving it.

 

To me, it’s like standing up and saying, “I want peace on earth” and everyone patting each other on the back. Of course we do, ideally - but this is the real world. 
 

I think it’s quite a fair comment to say that quite a big chunk of young men these days feel, for whatever reason, disenfranchised and left behind or, unseen, and part of that reason is people brushing it under the carpet and saying it’s bad don’t say that goodbye and block!

 

x

Yes, but I find there IS a difference between constantly complaining and spewing hate and not addressing WHY it's happening. Someone who legitimately wants to heal and figure out WHY it's happening can have productive discussions ABOUT addressing those issues, without spewing hate or negativity. The problem is when people use their feelings of disenfranchisement or frustration to justify hateful or sexist beliefs. Their feelings are valid, but the way they express them is not.

I apologize for going a bit off topic🙂, but I think it's important to address the difference between expressing legitimate grievances and using those grievances as an excuse to promote hate and negativity.

I mentioned earlier that there is a tendency to brush off certain grievances as "labels" without really listening to what the person is saying and I do agree that needs to change. It's a balance between listening and addressing valid issues, while also not accepting hateful rhetoric.

[boltnrun]

I understand what it's like to want a romantic partner and not have any success. In high school I had no boyfriends. No one wanted to date me. I grew to believe I was ugly and unattractive and undesirable. It was only when I got a job at an amusement park in a nearby town that I found out I wasn't as ugly as everyone at school told me I was. Guys actually liked me and thought I was cute! I dated a very, very handsome and attractive young man! A few others wanted to date me! But in school? No one wanted me.  It was soul crushing.

My husband also had no dates in high school so we had that in common.

[rainbowsandroses]

1 hour ago, boltnrun said:

Sometimes a guy I like doesn't like me back. It doesn't mean he's a narcissist or he has bipolar or BPD. 

Of course it doesn't! 

But when someone just got dumped in a cruel way and is hurting, deeming them a "narcissist" or whatever other derogatory adjective is their way of coping in that moment and working through their pain in order to move on.

When I hear this, I brush it off, they're hurting, they're venting, I don't for one second think they truly believe their ex are the things they are claiming.

And once they are HEALED, they will realize this too.

Come on guys, we are not robots.  We are human being with feelings, emotions, often times not pleasant, we can't always just "get up and shake that shyt off" after just getting our hearts broken in a million pieces, it takes TIME.

And if someone IS able to do that, perhaps they are some sort of robot.

I am not saying it's "right" to be calling your ex derogatory names, it's NOT, but it's understandable.  Imo.

If we have experienced that type of hurt and pain ourselves, have some empathy.  Help them work through their pain rather than judge and shame which is what I have often observed.  On online forums and off.

Not from you specifically Bolt, I am speaking in the general sense of how people often respond when hearing someone trashing an ex after just getting dumped in a harsh way.

[mylolita]

If this isn’t staged, my cockles are warmed 🤣🥰

 

 

x

 

 

[mylolita]

Adding a bit more Robert Greene in here for good measure:

🥲 x

 

[Coily]

3 hours ago, yogacat said:

I apologize for going a bit off topic🙂, but I think it's important to address the difference between expressing legitimate grievances and using those grievances as an excuse to promote hate and negativity.

I mentioned earlier that there is a tendency to brush off certain grievances as "labels" without really listening to what the person is saying and I do agree that needs to change. It's a balance between listening and addressing valid issues, while also not accepting hateful rhetoric.

I don't consider this off topic at all in this discussion of dating in the modern era!

As you, @mylolita, and @rainbowsandroses; have discussed there is a strange dismissal of the struggling men. It's as if addressing that men are struggling is "neo-misogyny"(LOL), or being indifferent/hostile to women's struggles. It shouldn't be! All of this, to me plays into the further antagonism between the sexes.

I would liken this to a barking dog. One doesn't train a dog from bad habits by bullying or beating them, corrective coercion is how you get through.  If some upset guy comes on here and the first thing he is smacked with is "You're a neo-misogynist!"  Do you think he will listen to reason? Bullying, berating them, calling them a hate group will only reinforce their negative beliefs.

Do I approve or endorse that radical line of thought? No. However, I can see where if the only people not bullying someone are the ones amplifying those negative ideas that individuals will feel justified in those beliefs and attitudes. 

How does that relate to courtship (still not rutting animals) and dating? I think we are getting a lot of negative reinforcement of harmful ideas on how to communicate in dating. A lot of people will just plow forward with a bad set of assumptions, and next thing they are on a forum lamenting a situation because they have never learned positive communications.

Personally I find all of this thread rather enlightening, detours and all.

[yogacat]

35 minutes ago, Coily said:

I don't consider this off topic at all in this discussion of dating in the modern era!

As you, @mylolita, and @rainbowsandroses; have discussed there is a strange dismissal of the struggling men. It's as if addressing that men are struggling is "neo-misogyny"(LOL), or being indifferent/hostile to women's struggles. It shouldn't be! All of this, to me plays into the further antagonism between the sexes.

I would liken this to a barking dog. One doesn't train a dog from bad habits by bullying or beating them, corrective coercion is how you get through.  If some upset guy comes on here and the first thing he is smacked with is "You're a neo-misogynist!"  Do you think he will listen to reason? Bullying, berating them, calling them a hate group will only reinforce their negative beliefs.

Do I approve or endorse that radical line of thought? No. However, I can see where if the only people not bullying someone are the ones amplifying those negative ideas that individuals will feel justified in those beliefs and attitudes. 

How does that relate to courtship (still not rutting animals) and dating? I think we are getting a lot of negative reinforcement of harmful ideas on how to communicate in dating. A lot of people will just plow forward with a bad set of assumptions, and next thing they are on a forum lamenting a situation because they have never learned positive communications.

Personally I find all of this thread rather enlightening, detours and all.

Why thank you! 😀

For sure. Also, I'd surmise the fear of false accusations or negative labels (i.e. misogyny, sexist, etc.) might also lead, some men especially, to clam up and not voice how they feel. This will not only be stagnant for the individual, but also the collective as men's issues won't be addressed or discussed.

Concerned, good men fear being unjustly branded as harassers.

So maybe that's part of the reason men are less hesitant to courting now-a-days, as there is so much stigma around it.

That still doesn't account for individual men that are somewhat forward (or so as some seem), the men that invite women to Netfliande or chilling at home and such (I swear, Netflix must have secretly coined a substantial profit from Netflix and Chill😄). 

I think it's rather an act of lack of awareness on the nitty-gritties of romance- the sweet things you might say or do to make the other feel special or cared for, some adults even have issues with this.

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, yogacat said:

I think it's rather an act of lack of awareness on the nitty-gritties of romance- the sweet things you might say or do to make the other feel special or cared for, some adults even have issues with this.

Oh I don't think so -if someone is kind, thoughtful, a good listener, a good friend then sure some people are better at banter/flirting than others but if you come across as approachable and genuine - as they say kettle for every pot.  Also people who are motivated to date in a positive way will be motivated to improve their social skills as needed.

[boltnrun]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

kettle for every pot.

Lid for every pot.

Sorry, couldn't resist 😉

[yogacat]

😂😅

 

[Cherylyn]

Since women are so liberated nowadays with their own power with economics,  freedom of choice, not worrying about unintended pregnancies and the like,  men are more liberated, too.  Gone are the days of courtship expectations and societal norms. 

Ever since women can control their desire to either become mothers or not,  it's an entirely different world now.  Hence,  relationships have changed drastically. 

The negatives are lack of commitment for many and discarding people easily if it doesn't work out.  The positives are more alternatives for both men and women as opposed to dilemmas and shotgun weddings in order to save face. 

Personally,  in many ways,  it's a better relationship world because no one including society gets to dictate how a relationship should be.  There are no more strict rules to abide by.  There's more flexibility which is more reasonable,  practical and realistic. 

[mylolita]

7 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

Since women are so liberated nowadays with their own power with economics,  freedom of choice, not worrying about unintended pregnancies and the like,  men are more liberated, too.  Gone are the days of courtship expectations and societal norms. 

Ever since women can control their desire to either become mothers or not,  it's an entirely different world now.  Hence,  relationships have changed drastically. 

The negatives are lack of commitment for many and discarding people easily if it doesn't work out.  The positives are more alternatives for both men and women as opposed to dilemmas and shotgun weddings in order to save face. 

Personally,  in many ways,  it's a better relationship world because no one including society gets to dictate how a relationship should be.  There are no more strict rules to abide by.  There's more flexibility which is more reasonable,  practical and realistic. 

Morning Cherylyn! 
 

I do agree! I think you’ve hit the nail on the head! The barriers are down and everyone’s kind of, floating around on the open sea!

 

I remember my initial gut reaction to this whole juicy and very interesting topic was - that the rules being broken down and dismantled isn’t always a good thing; and doesn’t always bring more freedom, not of the good and healthy kind, anyway.

 

You could also argue that as much as people dislike tradition, at least you know where you stood with classic gender roles. It cut out all the confusion, delay, all of that. People knew what they had to do because society had this “accepted” path. Good and bad things about that, but I actually side on the argument it was for the better, not the worse.

 

I tend to buck a trend before I even realise I’m doing it; being a bit of a silly contrarian n’all! But even I delight in the comfort of at least some rules and boundaries. I almost need the security of some kind of safety net, I can’t just be out with no rules in which the game is played and nothing to contain me! 
 

I think I also asked in my first post - what is now the role of a man? What is the role of a woman? What does it now mean to be a woman in 2024?(2023 I said @yogacat 🥲🤣)! Do we have a general idea? I suspect actually as a western society, we don’t anymore! It’s in my opinion causing a lot of problems.

 

We wanted the walls breaking down and now we’re all like, woah, this open field is big, and there’s not a horizon line in sight! 
 

Love your input on this by the way.

 

x

[boltnrun]

3 hours ago, mylolita said:

I almost need the security of some kind of safety net, I can’t just be out with no rules in which the game is played and nothing to contain me! 

I find this interesting. I think in your journal you said you think rule following is boring (I'm paraphrasing so this might not be exactly what you wrote). 

I think it's impossible not to evolve and change. Women don't "need" men in order to survive anymore so things almost have to adjust. And there will be growing pains as a result.

I was involved with a man who believed women were weak and helpless and needed men to guide them. A big reason why he and I didn't work out is I was independent, had my own job, supported myself and raised my son (I had primary custody) and I wasn't constantly calling him asking for help or needing him to tell me what I should do. He told me I was strong and independent with almost a disgusted tone. He said "You don't need me". I said "but isn't it better to want you instead of need you?" Apparently not. And I wasn't going to pretend to be helpless just to make him feel better or soothe his ego. (And I wasn't in love with him, BTW). 

Other men thought it was cool that I could take care of myself. We didn't spend our time together doing things I needed them to do for me but just did fun things. Or relaxed together. I preferred it that way. 

[mylolita]

1 hour ago, boltnrun said:

I find this interesting. I think in your journal you said you think rule following is boring (I'm paraphrasing so this might not be exactly what you wrote). 

I think it's impossible not to evolve and change. Women don't "need" men in order to survive anymore so things almost have to adjust. And there will be growing pains as a result.

I was involved with a man who believed women were weak and helpless and needed men to guide them. A big reason why he and I didn't work out is I was independent, had my own job, supported myself and raised my son (I had primary custody) and I wasn't constantly calling him asking for help or needing him to tell me what I should do. He told me I was strong and independent with almost a disgusted tone. He said "You don't need me". I said "but isn't it better to want you instead of need you?" Apparently not. And I wasn't going to pretend to be helpless just to make him feel better or soothe his ego. (And I wasn't in love with him, BTW). 

Other men thought it was cool that I could take care of myself. We didn't spend our time together doing things I needed them to do for me but just did fun things. Or relaxed together. I preferred it that way. 

I anticipated this would be brought up! 
 

My opinion to rules on this thread regards cultural etiquette and gender expectations. Aka “the unspoken rules of culture”.
 

My personal problem with rules and blind rule following tends to start with government involvement and law making, as my political stance is generally libertarian, which means, the least government involvement in people’s individual and private lives, the better. But that’s not for this discussion! 
 

I believe society and culturally, we need the “unwritten” social rule etiquettes. Or else, everything falls apart like the hedonism of the end times for Rome. 
 

I also have an alternative view that, when you truly love someone, of course you desperately need them, that’s the point! If you can live without them and they’re simply this kind of… addition, once everything is perfect and worked out, then really, is it even love? 
 

People have a misconception that maybe because a woman is a housewife, she is a vulnerable, helpless fawn lost in the woods. At the moment, and for the majority of my adult life, we have a mutual and very successful agreement that I will stay home and he will work. This is something that for 16 years has worked brilliantly. 
 

Ironically, I would wager when I was working full time (between 18-22) I probably made more money and for less “work” hours than most of the women here. But again, I am helpless and not independent? 
 

There are also many more creative ways to make plenty of money without formal education and degrees. My husband holds no degree, left school at 15 and has ran his own business now for over 25 years. In this financial climate he still supports us all and I still don’t need to work to maintain a very nice lifestyle. 

 

I would say women who are in happy and successful, traditional marriages, have freedoms other women do not. We get to do what we want - for example, we want to look after our children, find great joy and pride in doing that full time, don’t see it as a vulnerable weak burden that lessens us in society and the work place market. I get to arrange my day mostly as I see fit, apart from obviously considering the children. I have plenty of free time. I set my own schedule. I have access to funds just like my husband has access to our funds. Our investments and assets are joint. The house is in both our names, as are savings. In fact, if we divorced, I would come out even BETTER financially, that’s the messed up thing.

 

I desperately need him. He is, my rock. He’s my ying to my yang. Where I am impulsive and often restless, he is calm and secure. Where he is a muddled clutz, I add a bit of flare and finesse. We fill in each others blanks and so have no problem admitting I am much weaker without him. That’s the point of being part of a team that actually works - you are stronger together in every way! If I was better off alone or could do life perfectly without him, why on earth would I have said “I Do!”? 
 

To me, the concept of partners being this cherry on top of a fiercely all together worked out person is a sure fire way for a relationship to NOT work out! 
 

I do desperately need my husband. Not necessarily for financial reasons, but heck, it makes it a hell of a lot easier on me! I get to not work and have an extremely comfortable and luxurious life style. He gets the children taken care of while he goes to work by a mother who loves them deeply, not a child minder. He gets home cooked meals made with love and care and my daughters who cracked the eggs! 
 

This isn’t a bad thing, it’s not a vulnerable thing, it’s not a “co-dependent” thing. It’s just two people of a traditional mind set who mutually decided what the best way was to have a happy marriage and raise their kids. 
 

If the world collapsed tomorrow I would make it through. But I actually do not class myself as a woman who needs no help and can do it all. We aid and make each others lives better. I need his help. He needs me, I need him, for so many reasons. 
 

When I was 14-17 and in college, I worked two extra jobs and knew of no other person who did that (I went to a very affluent college). I’m quite a hard worker, when I do work. But my idea of success is living life how you want to live it. And I’m doing that. I don’t need absolute truths or absolute security. It’s not possible. But that’s not what love or relationships are about to me. Life just, isn’t like that. Again, I think this is a false truth that is told to modern women by feminism. That you are secure only if you have a career, or go down a certain path of education. 

 

And with regards to rules as in, the text book? Well, if there were no rules, then, there would be no rules to bend, and that would make a slightly mischievous one like me very, very bored! 

I’ve got out of all kinds of things in my time where others have had a rule book thrown at them. I actually class the way I live at this very moment as slightly cavalier and exotic, to some extent, it definitely isn’t “normal” or what the majority do. For example, I am the only woman I know of in this small affluent town we live in that actually stays home full time. 
 

I don’t mean to buck a trend, it just worked out that way. In that respect, in some ways, am I following the rules of my fellow females? 
 

No! I am going against the modern grain. It’s working out; the proof is in the pudding. When it stops working, I’ll change my tune and adapt as we all have too, but until then, this feels like a sure thang!
 

x

[mylolita]

I mean! 
 

Just to add. If a guy wants a woman who doesn’t need him, does it all, makes a million dollars a year, is like, super woman whilst still maintaining a 22 inch waist and changing the oil and building a car engine whilst cooking a gourmet dinner then… that’s not me. And he’ll have to move onto another highly educated career woman who has maybe her three degrees hung up on the wall.

 

I’m an ex exotic dancer who likes to read, write, arrange flowers, be taken care of, in return, take care of someone else, spend money, have fun, light candles during the day and make my own weird and off beat routines as I go along. Obviously one guy found that appealing and we work.

 

I caveat by saying I am not that career girl and never will be. If I want to make my own money, I’ll do it in a very different way than the standard ABC institutionalised become an employee way. 
 

Me and my husband both share the same sentiment that we simply cannot stand to be employed. It’s a mutual opinion and personality trait. We either make our money by becoming self employed and running our own stuff, or we find an alternative way. 
 

I believe in cultural traditions and their “unspoken rules of etiquette” for the most part. For example, I absolutely adore the old school Italian tradition of large extended family coming together for late evening meals. I love that! And their Catholic institution of marriage. I like it. Sure people deviate, Italy is in 2024 after all. But a part of my, romantic heart, traditional heart and ethics, really delights in that. I even like their attitudes towards divorce. I think divorce is an extremely heavy thing, a terrible thing actually. People divorce often on some silly reason (not you Bolt; but the shame is gone, people do it much more often now). 
 

I also believe children should ideally be raised by a man and woman, married, in a loving relationship. You can’t get better conditions than that, in my opinion. It’s optimum. And ideally as well, a sibling or two is nice. 
 

This is all taboo stuff but I do generally sway towards the more traditional social etiquette. I realise I was a lapdancer. This was before having children and being married but trust me, the irony is not lost. But I’m not 100% traditional and absolutist. I just generally like the more traditional norms and rules. 
 

x

[DarkCh0c0]

5 minutes ago, mylolita said:

I also believe children should ideally be raised by a man and woman, married, in a loving relationship. You can’t get better conditions than that, in my opinion. It’s optimum. And ideally as well, a sibling or two is nice

It's been already proven with research published that children with their parents together do far better in life than children who grow up in a single health. Specially in regards to mental health. This is, ofc, so long the parents are not abusive/toxic.

@mylolitaso what would a woman married to an abusive person or in an unhappy marriage do if she doesn't work? These are situations where she'd need to. There's often no financial support from ex husbands to ex wives.

Out of curiosity, do you dress in an eccentric way? Judging the way you write, you sound like a very free spirit irl 😊 almost like you hang out in retro style cafes with plenty of bookshelves. I could be totally wrong though....

[itsallgrand]

I know for a fact that I wouldn't be in a relationship as long as I have with my SO if he weren't fiercely independent and appreciated that in me too. It's a personality compatibility thing. We adore each other, and make an amazing team. That's actually one of the things my MIL regularly brings up " you work so well together!". 

We don't need each other strictly speaking. And there's huge comfort in that, for me. That doesn't mean we don't have each other's back or don't miss each other when we are apart. Us together is still stronger than us seperate. 

I'm not a rich career woman either. I'm just me. I like doing what I can for myself. I like being supported in that. 

We both had relationships prior where the other wanted something more traditional. It felt stifling. Like a weight. I mean, pretty much every day we sweet talk each other about how much we appreciate each other for being who we are. 

Things opening up just made it easier for people like me and him. I can't tell you how many men I briefly dated who wanted traditional roles. And hey, there are people out there for them. But I'm lucky I'm not stuck with that as my only choice! 

 

[boltnrun]

I don't view that as "rules" but rather as choices. It's right for you and that's terrific IMO. You live your life the way you prefer and that's honestly fantastic. I applaud you for this. 

I tried being a stay at home wife and mother and was bored. I adore my son, he's my sun and my moon, but I craved a work environment. So my husband and I worked out a compromise. I worked part time and was home with our son most of the day. In fact, my job required me to only come in two hours a day, Monday through Friday. Our son spent that time with his grandparents. And I got to interact with adults in a workplace environment. It was a win-win for all of us. 

And that's what I enjoy about being an adult in that era. I had choices and options and we chose what worked best for us. 

Besides, I saw what my mother went through when she and my father divorced. She hadn't worked in 15 years and suddenly had to try to find gainful employment. It was so hard for her. And I remember going without adequate food and clothing and I remember her not eating because she only had enough money to buy food for me and my brother. I never wanted to put my children through that, so I chose to maintain a current resume that could be helpful if I ever needed to support myself. Good thing I did because I was divorced after 15 years and had to go back to work full time. 

I think everyone should do what's right for them.