Modern Dating: The Evolution of Courtship for Men and Women

[DarkCh0c0]

3 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I found the same exact thing in the 80s in the clubs/bar scene.

Indeed! It's still ongoing in the bars and clubs to this day.

[Sindy_0311]

Recently I read a book about the evolution of masculinity through centuries. And there something interesting the author wrote I wanted to share here (in regards to the biological apect of the discussion) Genetically, based on chromosomes, women are XX and men are XY. She said that men don’t have their own genetical identity. They have half women chromosomes in their chart. While women are 100% women… just a little thing that I find interesting.  

[DarkCh0c0]

@mylolita do you have both parents and grandparents in happy ever after marriages? You guys have it in the genes. I'm jealous 😄

I don't know if this correlates with how happy the offspring marriages are 🤔 In my case, they are not good marriages on both my parents' sides and for my parents. And sadly, me and my sibling have had some pretty toxic first relationships. I'm steering away from them thankfully. Even my father comments on how much I attract attention from men, so I'm doing something right! But it seems marriages go better if we have a cute love story from a grandparent...?! Just a theory!

[Sindy_0311]

11 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

So how did things end between you two? Did he stop showing interest and took you for granted? Or was it something else?

It was something else. I decided to divorce because I realized we were not compatible and that I never really loved him. He came so strong in the beginning that he didn't allow me to make my own opinion about him and our relationship. I could have left earlier but we had our son, and I wanted to be sure to make the right decision and handle things the best way for everyone. 

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

@mylolita do you have both parents and grandparents in happy ever after marriages? You guys have it in the genes. I'm jealous 😄

I don't know if this correlates with how happy the offspring marriages are 🤔 In my case, they are not good marriages on both my parents' sides and for my parents. And sadly, me and my sibling have had some pretty toxic first relationships. I'm steering away from them thankfully. Even my father comments on how much I attract attention from men, so I'm doing something right! But it seems marriages go better if we have a cute love story from a grandparent...?! Just a theory!

My parents' marriage was challenging and hard because of my father's illness.  So far our son doesn't know we were engaged twice and 11 years apart and he hasn't asked why there are photos from the 90s lol.  I knew my parents broke up for a summer before they got engaged so it wasn't a perfect love story either! I'm not sure how/if my parents' marriage affected my choices for better or worse.  I believe my in laws had a happy marriage -married for 54 years.  And my husband seems very "normal" when it comes to relationships with me and lots of people -but it's subjective right -if we're "normal" why did neither of us marry till 42 and why was he a "late bloomer?" Etc.  Such a range of what is "normal".

[DarkCh0c0]

5 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

And my husband seems very "normal" when it comes to relationships with me and lots of people -but it's subjective right -if we're "normal" why did neither of us marry till 42 and why was he a "late bloomer?" Etc.  Such a range of what is "normal

I think very picky people marry later, but are happier in the long term?

Think George Clooney and Amal? They got married so late (at 40+) and had children also late.

Or is it just a matter of the right timing and luck? Idk...

[Seraphim]

27 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

I think very picky people marry later, but are happier in the long term?

Think George Clooney and Amal? They got married so late (at 40+) and had children also late.

Or is it just a matter of the right timing and luck? Idk...

Just because you are young doesn’t mean you are not picky and can’t go the distance. Both sets of my grandparents were married for life. My dad’s parents were 15 and 17 when they got married they were married 63 years when my grandmother died. My mom’s parents married later in life , my grandmother was 38 and my grandfather was 29. They were married 31 years when my grandfather died. My husband’s parents were married 63 years when did dad died. They married in their 20’s. 
 

I will be married 30 years next month. We met when I was 22 and my husband was 20 and married when we were 27 and 24. 
 

Sometimes it is definitely about age . I think now when extended childhood is expected finding someone early probably isn’t wise . Years ago though you didn’t stay home until 3O or later . You finished highschool and got out you were an adult now, bye. 

[kim42]

I go on reddit sometimes (when I need a break from work 😁) and there's so many posts from men that they're tired of doing all the pursuing and want women to show interest, text first or plan a date too. It was very eye-opening for me, as I come from a rather traditional country where the man is supposed to do all these things.

I have this friend and she married this guy, and she told me that she did most of the pursuing because he was so shy that he would barely look at her. I'm not sure if I'd be happy in this situation but it worked out for her.

[DarkCh0c0]

45 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

Just because you are young doesn’t mean you are not picky and can’t go the distance. Both sets of my grandparents were married for life. My dad’s parents were 15 and 17 when they got married they were married 63 years when my grandmother died. My mom’s parents married later in life , my grandmother was 38 and my grandfather was 29. They were married 31 years when my grandfather died. My husband’s parents were married 63 years when did dad died. They married in their 20’s. 

Ah yes. I should have said "happy" rather than happier.

Your cases and theirs are also very good examples of young and strong love. Lolita's too.

[mylolita]

2 hours ago, Sindy_0311 said:

Actually I saw a documentary about prehistoric women and its seems that the roles were not that black and white back then. They found cave paintings representing women hunting and participating in providing for the community in various ways. So I think its a misconception that women were only waiting for men to bring the food and protect them and the children. the same goes with animals: lionesses do hunt. I think it's not biologically written that men are the hunters. Its the society that decided it... 

Sindy!

 

It’s an interesting debate! They say if you look at hidden tribes, isolated ones, you can take a peek as to what may have happened. Of course the women didn’t sit all day, but they always prepared the food and kept the “home” and had children to look after. Women normally and traditionally in tribes gather berries and other foliage, sometimes small mammals and frogs. 
 

From what I have read women never went on the dangerous mammoth hunts to bring home meat, which is of course and always has been highly valued and prized, as the staple of the diet. Men also in isolated tribes often trek off to smoke out bees for honey, which is quite dangerous and often as far as I know left to the men. 
 

Women often in these tribes constantly carry and breastfeed their babies in slings - I know there is evidence of this in prehistoric man; due to the cold and the danger. You couldn’t have your toddler wandering off. 
 

There is debate to say primitive man also had a lot of time on their hands for social activity, art, crafts, clothes making, story telling. They would hunt once in the day then it was over until the next day, the rest was free time.

 

Women historically have done all kinds of a-typical things. They have held down towns when all the men have gone to war, and even sometimes gone into battle. If you like history, Queen Boudicca of the ancient Icebi tribe is quite the read! But these are historic exceptions, and not the norm, as far as I have read anyway.

 

Women gathering berries and making traps for small game is still common in isolated tribes now, but the men still do the majority by far, and hunting wild animals is very dangerous, and can’t be done with a baby on your back, or truth be told, women are physically much less strong than men. It makes sense this has always been a masculine role. Men are built biologically for it (more likely to take risks, better and faster reaction times, better spatial awareness, tunnel vision aspect and inability to multi-task, bigger, stronger). Women in evolutionary terms are built for raising babies and the social aspect. Hence our bigger connection to our emotions, bigger likelihood at experiencing empathy and more likely to experience negative emotion or neurosis. In psychology, this leaning towards caution and stability and worry is actually a brilliant asset to have when having to comfort, protect and raise a very trying and helpless baby. 
 

I am speaking generally but if you are also curious regarding psychology and evolutionary biology, we can step back and see we are primates and almost, see our roles and biology as they are. 
 

It’s not a bad or a good thing - it’s just the way it is. Hormones affect the development of our brains and bodies, and split us different ways, and this is a great, survivalist thing because both female and male traits work together well when balanced and combined, are stronger together, in my opinion.

 

If anyone has any evidence or article on female large mammal hunting like mammoths, or big game within tribes, please I would love to hear it, I’m very interested in biology and history and love finding new information regarding the sexes! It’s fascinating! 
 

x

[mylolita]

2 hours ago, Sindy_0311 said:

Recently I read a book about the evolution of masculinity through centuries. And there something interesting the author wrote I wanted to share here (in regards to the biological apect of the discussion) Genetically, based on chromosomes, women are XX and men are XY. She said that men don’t have their own genetical identity. They have half women chromosomes in their chart. While women are 100% women… just a little thing that I find interesting.  

Afternoon Sindy!

 

Hobby biologist here as well! 
 

As far as I know (my limited knowledge) the jury is out on that one! What do you think to the link below? 
 

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2017/09/21/embryos-arent-female-default-study-shows/

 

x

[yogacat]

The concept of "wining and dining" is an interesting one because I'd imagine it can get very expensive to treat someone every time you want to hang out. (On the flip side, it's probably a sign of mutual interest and consideration, which can make someone feel good.) Especially if the dates don't lead to anything it's little return for the massive investment.

Especially now-a-days where men may have less time and resources to dedicate to traditional courtship and given that women initiate most divorce and family courts favor women in terms of alimony and child custody, men may be less inclined to engage in traditional courtship and instead opt for more casual and convenient methods of dating.

In that sense, I can't say I blame them. That's not to say that a man inviting a woman over to his house without putting in much effort isn't lazy or lacks creativity, but there's also a selfish and inconsiderate expectation from men to always pay and "prove" themselves. 

I don't think the answer is to have dates at each others houses because that to me just screams hookup and less about getting to know the person on a deeper level. It's a more casual and convenient method of dating, which may be appealing to some, but it also removes the romantic and traditional aspect of getting to know someone. 

[Seraphim]

11 minutes ago, mylolita said:

Sindy!

 

It’s an interesting debate! They say if you look at hidden tribes, isolated ones, you can take a peek as to what may have happened. Of course the women didn’t sit all day, but they always prepared the food and kept the “home” and had children to look after. Women normally and traditionally in tribes gather berries and other foliage, sometimes small mammals and frogs. 
 

From what I have read women never went on the dangerous mammoth hunts to bring home meat, which is of course and always has been highly valued and prized, as the staple of the diet. Men also in isolated tribes often trek off to smoke out bees for honey, which is quite dangerous and often as far as I know left to the men. 
 

Women often in these tribes constantly carry and breastfeed their babies in slings - I know there is evidence of this in prehistoric man; due to the cold and the danger. You couldn’t have your toddler wandering off. 
 

There is debate to say primitive man also had a lot of time on their hands for social activity, art, crafts, clothes making, story telling. They would hunt once in the day then it was over until the next day, the rest was free time.

 

Women historically have done all kinds of a-typical things. They have held down towns when all the men have gone to war, and even sometimes gone into battle. If you like history, Queen Boudicca of the ancient Icebi tribe is quite the read! But these are historic exceptions, and not the norm, as far as I have read anyway.

 

Women gathering berries and making traps for small game is still common in isolated tribes now, but the men still do the majority by far, and hunting wild animals is very dangerous, and can’t be done with a baby on your back, or truth be told, women are physically much less strong than men. It makes sense this has always been a masculine role. Men are built biologically for it (more likely to take risks, better and faster reaction times, better spatial awareness, tunnel vision aspect and inability to multi-task, bigger, stronger). Women in evolutionary terms are built for raising babies and the social aspect. Hence our bigger connection to our emotions, bigger likelihood at experiencing empathy and more likely to experience negative emotion or neurosis. In psychology, this leaning towards caution and stability and worry is actually a brilliant asset to have when having to comfort, protect and raise a very trying and helpless baby. 
 

I am speaking generally but if you are also curious regarding psychology and evolutionary biology, we can step back and see we are primates and almost, see our roles and biology as they are. 
 

It’s not a bad or a good thing - it’s just the way it is. Hormones affect the development of our brains and bodies, and split us different ways, and this is a great, survivalist thing because both female and male traits work together well when balanced and combined, are stronger together, in my opinion.

 

If anyone has any evidence or article on female large mammal hunting like mammoths, or big game within tribes, please I would love to hear it, I’m very interested in biology and history and love finding new information regarding the sexes! It’s fascinating! 
 

x

I think recently a study was published about an ancient body that first was thought to be a man as it was buried with all the accoutrements of war and hunting, but found the person was actually female . 

[mylolita]

2 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

@mylolita do you have both parents and grandparents in happy ever after marriages? You guys have it in the genes. I'm jealous 😄

I don't know if this correlates with how happy the offspring marriages are 🤔 In my case, they are not good marriages on both my parents' sides and for my parents. And sadly, me and my sibling have had some pretty toxic first relationships. I'm steering away from them thankfully. Even my father comments on how much I attract attention from men, so I'm doing something right! But it seems marriages go better if we have a cute love story from a grandparent...?! Just a theory!

Afternoon Dark!!!

 

My parents have always had (I mean, as far as I know and can see, I lived with them till I was 18) a very romantic, flirty actually(!) marriage! They were married in 1981. Can anyone do the math? 🤣 

 

My childhood memories consist of my Dad walking up behind my mother and embracing her. Even tapping her behind! Them kissing while we played sometimes (not, a French kiss by the way but, a nice one, ha!) They will have fought of course, there is no such thing as perfection! 
 

My Mum and Dad told us the historic story of how they met all our childhood lives! It was fantastic and me and my sister loved hearing about how my Dad wore cowboy boots, jeans and a white t-shirt and my Mum had snuck into the country club at 14 with her cousin, skinny as a rake with thick dark curls piled atop of her head! My Dad used to tell us how he loved my Mums hands, and how long her neck was. She was wearing lemon stiletto heels! God, we got all the details! 
 

We also got all the details of how our Grandparents met! And one of our favourite family past times was, when they were all still alive, begging them to get the family albums out and especially the wedding albums! My Mum’s Mums wedding dress made such a glamorous impact on me that, when I got married at 24, subconsciously I realise I basically copied her dress! And had red roses in my bouquet and red lipstick, just like her! I’m also named after my Mum’s Mum also. 
 

My Dad’s parents had a very traditionally romantic relationship. They joked freely and all sets of relationships had this playful element which I now find is the glue that holds many strong relationships together - basically, that they were best friends.

 

My Mums parents were a little different. My Grandma on that side was much more volatile, I probably take after her in that respect. My Mum can remember some big arguments. They always made up, stayed together; but were more hot headed and they used to nag each other from time to time; but still - there was deep romance there, in a different way. 
 

I think it shapes your youth, seeing positive relationships. I have friends who are children of divorce and rightly and understandably so, they are very cynical and unsure to marry, and still haven’t, some of them. Some of them are scared from seeing their parents break up. 
 

My husband comes from a place where his parents are still together after 55 plus years. Theirs is a little bit more tricky. I get a love hate vibe going on but, we both came into this relationship with an exceptionally positive view of marriage, and I would say a great deal of respect and faith in marriage as a concept, as an institution. I think we were lucky in that respect. 
 

It’s strange because I never was pre-occupied with getting married when I was little. I just presumed I would, and that I’d have children, and have it all together (HA!) I also started to think at 18 I would be forever single, because I just couldn’t meet anyone I shared that ground moving connection with. And I would joke to friends I would remain a spinster and go do up a run down cottage or something and be a hermit. A few months later, I met my husband!

 

A lot of it is timing and luck as well.

 

x

[mylolita]

2 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

I think recently a study was published about an ancient body that first was thought to be a man as it was buried with all the accoutrements of war and hunting, but found the person was actually female . 

Yes I have heard of this plenty especially in the Viking, Pagan and Celtic cultures but, as I still understand it these were exceptions and not the norms? 
 

I understand there is a big need to re-write history sometimes in this modern day and age. We would like to think women all rode out on their chariots to leave the men to watch the sheep because it feels epic and like, girl power!  But I’m not sure from what I have read this was ever the norm. There have for sure been stand out ancient women who were tough as anything - Joan of Arc comes to mind. Queen Elizabeth, Henry the 8ths daughter. There are many but, from day to day, the role of a woman in general? I think these were exceptions! 
 

I think of course, ancient people on average were hard as nails. Imagine life back then? Makes this look like a merry go round! Having the majority of your children die, famine, disease, war, poverty like we can’t imagine, discomfort? I even think back 200 years and salute them! 
 

x
 

 

[yogacat]

2 hours ago, Sindy_0311 said:

Recently I read a book about the evolution of masculinity through centuries. And there something interesting the author wrote I wanted to share here (in regards to the biological apect of the discussion) Genetically, based on chromosomes, women are XX and men are XY. She said that men don’t have their own genetical identity. They have half women chromosomes in their chart. While women are 100% women… just a little thing that I find interesting.  

I've always been fascinated by biology and ended up studying Natural Science, so I'm always open to learning more about the intricacies of genetics and how they shape us as individuals. This topic definitely falls into that category and it's interesting to think about how our genetics, gender, and societal norms all intersect. 

I wanted to add my thoughts on this topic in a respectful manner. It's commonly known that male sexual characteristics are determined by XY chromosomes, but the full picture of our genetics goes beyond just that. Things like gene expression, epigenetics, and external factors all play a role in shaping our individual genetic makeup. Plus, the concepts of gender and sex can be complicated and may not always fit into a strict binary definition. A lot of it is still foreign to me and challenging to grasp.

It's an intriguing idea to ponder, thank you for sharing your thoughts on it. I haven't read the book you're referring to and do you think this genetic makeup has any impact on the roles and expectations society places on men? Or do you think it's purely a cultural construct?

[mylolita]

@yogacat this is fab!

 

I attended two lectures at Oxford held by Richard Dawkins, the famous British biologist! I got to meet him after (he was as pompous and straight as I thought he might be, disappointing!) 

 

The lectures were based around religion and evolutionary biology. He didn’t go too deeply into genetics, though I have his book ‘The Selfish Gene’ and this convo has got me inspired to pick it up again!

 

x

[DarkCh0c0]

@mylolitayour stories give me hope. Thank you so much for sharing.

@yogacat let us know if you are courted again anytime soon😄

[mylolita]

1 minute ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

@mylolitayour stories give me hope. Thank you so much for sharing.

@yogacat let us know if you are courted again anytime soon😄

No one’s marriage or relationship is perfect by the way Dark! That is a fact!!

 

I think @Seraphim  and @Batya33 and apologies the long term married or partnered users here I have missed out but, they can probably agree on one thing with me is that, it takes work! And dedication! And it’s no walk in the park! 
 

x

[yogacat]

11 minutes ago, mylolita said:

@yogacat this is fab!

 

I attended two lectures at Oxford held by Richard Dawkins, the famous British biologist! I got to meet him after (he was as pompous and straight as I thought he might be, disappointing!) 

 

The lectures were based around religion and evolutionary biology. He didn’t go too deeply into genetics, though I have his book ‘The Selfish Gene’ and this convo has got me inspired to pick it up again!

 

x

Very cool! Yes, I choose to pursue that degree in College because I have always been fascinated with life and the natural world. I find it amazing how everything is interconnected. Something I never knew, is that we are still breathing in the atoms of people like Joan of Arc and Shakespeare, like we are all part of a big cycle. It's crazy to think about.

6 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

@yogacat let us know if you are courted again anytime soon😄

Haha, indeed!🫠

[boltnrun]

To me, "courting" is doing things for the other person to make them feel happy and show you care about them and want a future with them.  It's not doing things to impress them or to get them to like YOU.

[yogacat]

41 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

To me, "courting" is doing things for the other person to make them feel happy and show you care about them and want a future with them.  It's not doing things to impress them or to get them to like YOU.

I agree.

I think a lot of the dating advice out there today is designed to trigger an unhealthy emotion to get a man to pursue you. And unfortunately, the catch in that is if he starts pursuing you, he might go through the motions without really being into you - he's more fixated on getting that temporary dopamine hit of wanting to win you over.

And it's not sustainable. 

[Batya33]

4 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

I think very picky people marry later, but are happier in the long term?

Think George Clooney and Amal? They got married so late (at 40+) and had children also late.

Or is it just a matter of the right timing and luck? Idk...

I think I got in my own way. I wasn't too picky.  I wasn't going to settle.  It was part timing and luck. Part me becoming the right person to find the right person and being proactive in dating and sticking to my goals and values and desires.

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, mylolita said:

No one’s marriage or relationship is perfect by the way Dark! That is a fact!!

 

I think @Seraphim  and @Batya33 and apologies the long term married or partnered users here I have missed out but, they can probably agree on one thing with me is that, it takes work! And dedication! And it’s no walk in the park! 
 

x

And for me- personally -a belief in the institution of marriage as not just a piece of paper -not in the least.

[Batya33]

3 hours ago, kim42 said:

have this friend and she married this guy, and she told me that she did most of the pursuing because he was so shy that he would barely look at her. I'm not sure if I'd be happy in this situation but it worked out for her.

Is she happy with him? My husband was desperately shy the first time we dated and he courted me and did all of the asking and most of the planning before we were a couple for sure.  I know of women who prefer to be in control to a more "masculine" extent.