Bad Behaviour vs. Clueless, How to Tell the Difference….

[Unreasonable]

^^ Here is the distinction you asked for, Naomi. Sure, we all need to learn about a lovers' default behaviors and attitudes, and then we can decide whether it's possible to negotiate from there.

 

That's not the same thing as setting someone up. A setup is when we suspect something about a person and, rather than negotiating to fix it, or walking away based on a lack of trust or respect, we position them badly to 'catch' them in a fail.

 

I think you were still in the first scenario, the learning phase, but you might find it helpful in the future when you're really on the guy's side, to learn whether reasonable negotiation can help your relationship along. You already observed a hoarding mentality in the guy. You gave him the benefit of doubt by remaining with him only to further observe a total lack of generosity.

 

I can appreciate why that's just not fixable for you. The guy is 40, not 20. If he's still operating like a financially impaired 20 year old--with everyone and in front of everyone--that's probably not something a request for half a food bill will change.

 

My heart goes out to you for the disappointment, but you're smart and will find a better match for you. I'd just take some pearls from this discussion about learning how to put your observations on the table kindly and negotiate those.

Agreed. I think it's fine you broke up with him. The only thing I find troubling is that you come up with all these "examples" for perfect strangers, but don't specifically call HIM out on it? I feel like you're maybe too conflict-avoidant, and maybe could be worked on. Worse comes to worse, you break up anyway, but at least you didn't suffer in silence, which helps no one.

[tattoobunnie]

Men can't read your mind. NO MAN CAN READ YOUR MIND

 

You could have also said:

I really could use your help in picking out stuff at the store.

I want to make sure we get something you like too, so I could use your help.

Hey, since I've covering the crudités, are you cool with paying for the cake?

You're helping me clean up, right?

 

Some men are clueless!!! My husband is such an awesome, one of the most awesomess men in the whole men, and he is a giant hoarding slob - it's scary. And you would think with all the TV shows showing prestine houses, and friends and family and their home he's been too, he'd know what to do...NOOOOOO. You need to train some men.

 

Please do not make it out like I'm calling any man a dog. With any successful relationship, you need to be open and upfront about your needs, wants, and expectations. You cannot just assume the other person knows what to do and how to act in every single situation. Being passive aggressive is not your friend.

 

Plus, I'm sure you decided to have it at your home to control the situation. You waited and waited, and waited so long that it had to be a big affair. Next time, just do drinks at a bar or whatever, and let your friends feel out if the guy is a chump or not.

 

I will just say if you don't say it, people won't know.

[Naomi99]

I think when you get to the point that you see your boyfriend's finger as "gross" when it's stuck in things, it's over.

 

I think he's been really ungentlemanly, but the worst thing I've read in this thread so far is him continuing to stick his hands in your plate when you've told him not to, and then joking about it. Like, he has no respect or regard for your wishes.

 

Good riddance.

 

I don't know whether he took out his food from the fridge because he couldn't part with it...or whether it was more like a "you've been possessive about your food all this time -- now I'm going to be" gesture.

 

The only thing I'd suggest is that you be very clear about what patterns you find upsetting, and I'm not sure whether you actually had a calm conversation about these problems and how you feel. Talking about how you were raised isn't the same as talking about the incidents themselves, and trying to come to an understanding about expectations. But if he isn't interested in respecting your wishes plainly stated about how not to touch your food, I think it's probably a lost cause.

 

I have not been possessive about my food at all! The times I did express "go get your own," he still ends up taking my stuff anyway! I should point out even after that argument I posted about here, he still continued snatching things from my kitchen all the time, esp. right before he leaves like "Oh, I gotta take one for the road," whether it's refilling his travel mug with coffee (which he claims he doesn't like coffee) or some type of fruit or bar. All of these things he pockets from me add$ up! He is a cheap mo-fo and I am not a 7-Eleven!

 

Oh, and I didnt give you the full story: I'm still confused over why he took his sad stick of butter and bag of wilted lettuce, because after we broke up, he left my house and proceeded to go on a 10-hour drive to start a temporary job in a different city!!!! He left directly from my house and never went back to his home! To start with, the only reason why he had brought a few food items to my house is because he wasn't going to be home for the next several weeks and wanted his fridge to be empty. He was going to leave his stuff at my place. So what? He'd rather have wilted lettuce and melted butter than leave them at my place for me to enjoy? Cheap bastard. Esp. when I think about how much butter and milk he's used at my place on his toast, pancakes (that I cooked, BTW) just everything pisses me off because the list is endless.

 

So right now, he is out of town. Before we broke up, we had made plans that I would join him for mini holiday. He just texted me to ask if I'm still going to meet him. Unbelievable.

 

When I broke up with him, I was crying and couldn't bring myself to run through a dirty laundry list of how I felt wronged by his actions, so I just did a blanket general statement of "I don't feel connected to you on so many levels, it's over and I'm moving on…" type of convo. I thought he got it, but maybe you're right…I need to give him details of how upsetting his behavior is to me.

 

On the bright side, I went out to dinner with a friend last night…I dated him briefly before the doctor, never slept with him, and we remained friends all this time. Always felt a warm connection. It was really nice to be with someone who wasn't in my space, drinking out of my cup and leaving greasy lip marks on the rim. It was nice to look down at my plate and not see missing items on it.

 

 

 

I'm also wondering if you might have thrown yourself in with this guy knowing that eventually it would have to end, and that you didn't have a long-term chance of being happy with him (if he's moving); and so, you sort of set yourself up for whatever flaws to play out to get unbearable. I think in the back of your mind, your clock was ticking against him -- it wasn't a question of if you'd be done with him, but when. So in a way...I don't know if you were being completely honest with yourself. Or him. Hard to do when you're enjoying being adored.

 

In a way, it seems that the kind of guy he was, to ask you out to just go with him on a roadtrip, was your first sign. And you just wanted it to be this freewheeling time with no commitments and this hedonistic adventure. Well, you got freewheeling, alright. This is what's on the other side of freewheeling. It seems as though what drew you to him was exactly what doomed it, and you were sort of expecting a fantasy adventure for its own sake to translate into relationship material, and in that, you were miscalculating.

 

We only find out these things by hindsight sometimes, but maybe next time, if you're going for something based on sheer thrill factor, or "chemistry", be careful what you ask for. The similarity with the doctor is that there was a level of irresponsibility and immaturity in both cases -- not a mature and serious approach to grounding relationships, but rather, enjoying "highs". It's no surprise that they both end up being more like children.

 

So, "thrills" and great excitement/high romance/displays of storybook/movie level drama and intrigue is your kryptonite (the doctor was someone of prestige and status whose suave glow you could bask in; this guy was wildly exciting for being so spontaneous -- and neither of those promise stability), and just be aware that if you fall for it, you're on to something that's likely to end badly. I think you need a new gauge in assessing who to get involved with.

 

I am not with anyone now, but I do know that early vetting for me HAS to involve building a bond that is 50/50 emotionally trusting and pragmatically resonant. Both elements have to be there.

[Naomi99]

Agreed. I think it's fine you broke up with him. The only thing I find troubling is that you come up with all these "examples" for perfect strangers, but don't specifically call HIM out on it? I feel like you're maybe too conflict-avoidant, and maybe could be worked on. Worse comes to worse, you break up anyway, but at least you didn't suffer in silence, which helps no one.

 

That is something I am struggling with.

 

I'm not sure how much is my responsibility to voice what I'd like out of a partner vs. what is common sense in a decent human being.

 

I don't want to have to tell my potential baby daddy, "hey, can you please replenish the 15 bottles of ginger ales you drank?"

 

That shyyyyte is common sense, you don't just deplete someone's bar and call it a day. Well, that is him.

[notalady]

That is something I am struggling with.

 

I'm not sure how much is my responsibility to voice what I'd like out of a partner vs. what is common sense in a decent human being.

 

I don't want to have to tell my potential baby daddy, "hey, can you please replenish the 15 bottles of ginger ales you drank?"

 

That shyyyyte is common sense, you don't just deplete someone's bar and call it a day. Well, that is him.

 

I guess it's up to you to draw the line at "if I have to spell this for you, you're not the guy for me" versus "I'm ok with having to tell you this, it's not a deal breaker if you didn't already know this or it doesn't come naturally to you".

[tattoobunnie]

If you think you don't need to communicate, you're just going to repeat this over and over again with another partner, and the next partner.

[reinventmyself]

Meh. . .I personally don't want to give them all the sorted details of their bad behavior and ideas on how to improve.

The moment was lost when they didn't get it while with me.

Call me petty but I hate to think I gave them enough information so they'll be a better boyfriend to the next person they meet.

[Jibralta]

I can't remember that one.

 

Is that where she asked everyone to help her bake a pie, and no one wanted to help her. Then when it was ready, they all wanted a piece and she said, "Go F- yourselves?"

 

Yup. ......

[abitbroken]

If you think you don't need to communicate, you're just going to repeat this over and over again with another partner, and the next partner.

 

If something bothers you, speak up! I have a great guy who is very compatible with me - but if I didn't speak up and say "hey, this bothered me" or he didn't give me a head's up about some things, there would be a lot stewing under the surface. Even if two people are compatible (you guys weren't, but for the sake of argument), you still don't think like the same person. Its not about letting things bother you until it all blows up, but mentioning things when they are small in a way the other person knows its something important to you and its not just a one time off thing. That's how people grow together as a couple. You can't read someone else's mind.

 

SO I agree with tattoobunnie - there have been other instances where it was a huge deal for you to finally state your needs and you were just hoping in the meantime that someone would "get it". It saves a lot of heartache and 20 pages.

[Pretzel]

I can see both sides being of importance -- speaking up and also not needing to, because you would hope that some things comes naturally.

 

I myself am learning the former (that is, I am learning how to speak my mind more), which doesn't come instinctively to me. One is probably due to personality, and another is background - my family are from a middle eastern background, where often people don't tend to SAY what they want, politeness is to an excess, and everyone is expected to offer / decline in the appropriate circumstances. It's taboo for example to ASK for the other to contribute financially, but it is expected.

My BF is not of the same background and in a few recent disputes, while they have been resolved, he has asked me to say what I want more rather, so I am trying to be more blunt. Sometimes, it has paid off and saved a lot of time that I would have otherwise spent waiting for a result that wouldn't come.

 

But i completely understand where Naomi is coming from. There are some things that should not need to be said. I go to my bf's place 2/3 times a week minimum, and I am a girl but still do not want him to be providing for me more and try to keep it equal, so I go over with food / wine / coffee on a regular basis, and the nice stuff!!! Because I also like the nice stuff I totally get it! And why should I expect him to provide it all? Plus, I actually enjoy it. I like going to the supermarket. It would seem absurd to me that a partner wouldn't do that, it seems to be a fundamental difference in terms of mentality that would just fester for too long after a while, which is what has happened it seems. It still must be tough i imagine, and disappointing that it didn't work out. I'm about 4 months in with someone and also at that 'deciding' stage and would be pretty gutted too so totally get it. But you seem a strong woman and have a strong idea of what you want, so good for you and onwards and upwards

[boltnrun]

I have kind of a funny story. I used to date a guy who stayed at my place every weekend. He had to leave very early one morning so I was still sleeping when he left. When I got up I saw that he'd left a $100 bill on my table. I called him, furious, yelling "I don't take money for that!!!" meaning sex. And he said "No! I stay at your place a lot, I use your soap and shampoo and toothpaste and I eat some of your food. THAT'S what the money is for!!!"

 

LOL

 

And he had a really hard time letting me pay for anything. One time I wanted to buy him dinner and I had to practically beg him to let me.

 

Unfortunately he was a chauvinistic, racist, egotistical pig who ogled women right in front of me, loudly saying things like "wow, look at that big-t*tted one over there!!!" among other embarrassing things. Plus he cheated. So I dumped him.

 

Anyway... I find it much easier to get what I want when I just ask for it.

[journeynow]

Interesting what Pretzel posted. I was thinking about this discussion, and how I relate to both sides. My experience is with my ex-husband, we were together 30 years and are still friends, and I share similarities w/ Naomi's approach, and he with Adventurous Guy. I see some of it as cultural difference, in that our families of origin give us some of our basic cultural expectations, even if we are part of the same bigger culture. It's taken me years to come to that understanding, we had different approaches in some things because we had different expectations around "common sense" in those areas. We had different outlooks. It took communication to understand and grow through it. Some of those differences could be viewed as incompatibles. Yet at the time they were worth living with and working around because love and attraction overrode those. I think going through things, like this for Naomi, is how we learn about ourselves, what is important, what we are willing to change in ourselves, and what we won't, what our boundaries actually are.

[reinventmyself]

Though Naomi may have not stated her needs clearly, he definitely carved out a pattern of being a mooch.

Asking a mooch to not be mooch is pointless.

 

It wasn't that this guy was clueless and needed some feedback

His actions were deliberate and almost calculating. (sitting in the car while she shopped or stepping away from the register when time to pay)

 

She was speaking up about her displeasure.

 

I think what you are asking of her is to ask for what she needs and not complain about what she's getting instead.

In most cases this work. But this wasn't a case of miscommunication.

 

There is a point where something can be fixed and then when something is just too far gone.

[Naomi99]

I think what you are asking of her is to ask for what she needs and not complain about what she's getting instead.

In most cases this work. But this wasn't a case of miscommunication.

 

There is a point where something can be fixed and then when something is just too far gone.

 

Yeah, he wouldn't have changed if I asked what I need. Examples:

 

I asked him to please stop eating off my plate. He continued to do it over and over and over to the point I had to slap his hand.

 

I asked him not to wear his street clothes in my bed. He still would get in my clean linens with his dirty clothes.

 

I asked him please go get your own groceries for camping. That's where he got mad at me (I posted about it here). Then the next time he went camping, he STILL used all of my groceries to make a sandwich and took fruit that all belonged to me. And again, we had just come from the market!!!!

 

Still can't understand why he behaves like this, but then is a total sweetheart otherwise. It makes me sad because I really thought I hit a connection with him.

[notalady]

You didn't ask him to "please go get your own groceries for camping" though, you expressed your discontent in a passive aggressive way.

 

I don't know how you expressed about your other requests, but if it's anything like the granola bar / camping groceries incident, you didn't exactly communicate nicely and respectfully either.

 

Of course that doesn't change the fact that he's cheap and inconsiderate. Just pointing out your part in this.

[jujusamples]

This just brings back memories of when I dated a guy whom is not only a cheapskate but he also tested me on everything!

 

I have to say, the cheapskate thing did NOT bother me as much as him "testing" me! I absolutely can not stand when people try to test me, just tell me. People deserve a chance. Testing someone is not giving them a fair chance. Everyone has their faults, and no one is perfect. Communications is key.

 

As far as I know, that dude is still single and can not carry a relationship. Only if could tell him to stop "testing" and judging people but I rather not waste anymore of my precious time on him.

[Ms Darcy]

That is something I am struggling with.

 

I'm not sure how much is my responsibility to voice what I'd like out of a partner vs. what is common sense in a decent human being.

 

I don't want to have to tell my potential baby daddy, "hey, can you please replenish the 15 bottles of ginger ales you drank?"

 

That shyyyyte is common sense, you don't just deplete someone's bar and call it a day. Well, that is him.

 

If a behavior bothers you and breaks your boundary, you need to voice it. If your partner does something that makes you feel so angry or irritated that, over time, your feelings about him would change, the you need to voice it. If you feel in any way violated by sonething your partner has done then you need to voice it.

[Unreasonable]

That is something I am struggling with.

 

I'm not sure how much is my responsibility to voice what I'd like out of a partner vs. what is common sense in a decent human being.

 

I don't want to have to tell my potential baby daddy, "hey, can you please replenish the 15 bottles of ginger ales you drank?"

 

That shyyyyte is common sense, you don't just deplete someone's bar and call it a day. Well, that is him.

 

"Common Sense is neither common nor sensical. Much of what passes for common sense is not based on any underlying principle it’s just anecdotes that have worked for the current situation."

 

- Benjamin Franklin

 

If "common sense" really existed, then there wouldn't be so many examples of people not using it. Or rather what is common sense to us. It also has to do a lot of with context. When I go to my parents house to visit, I grab stuff out of their fridge without a word. Not a "can I?", or even a "thank you". Does everybody do that? Dunno, but it works for us. I wouldn't think of doing this at a friend's house though, because I have so-called "common sense." I think at one point, he got this kind of parent/child view of you. Can't say how that happened.

[lostandhurt]

I have read most of your other dating encounters with men and your position or feelings about dating them and ultimately dumping them. In the past I would say in my opinion you were somewhat culpable in the demise in some way. BUT in this case this was all on him. Communication was not the problem, circumstances were not the problem and expressing desires and opinions was not the problem.

 

This guy was a mooch and cheap in the highest order.

 

You are both adults and should not have to teach each other simple common courtesy. He was well aware of what he was doing and you were right to end it.

 

Usually guys are spending money they don't have on the woman they care about but this guy was out for hot sex and a free ride.

 

I wish you luck on your next dating adventure. Lesson learned right?

 

Lost

[reinventmyself]

That is something I am struggling with.

I'm not sure how much is my responsibility to voice what I'd like out of a partner vs. what is common sense in a decent human being.

 

This is has been a hard learned lesson for me and one that I still need to consciously put into practice.

I often laugh at myself. `wouldn't life be easier if everyone saw things the way I did?'

My way isn't necessarily the right way. (though I'd like to think so )

I have to remind myself this over and over.

 

I can go from zero to ten with my frustration when someone either doesn't see things the way I do or doesn't get it.

All this does is make me miserable. So rather than being intolerant to differences, I take a step back, calm down and

calmly state my need.

 

If I were in your shoes I would have been equally frustrated. Not to say it would have changed anything but rather than

slinging the snarky comments. . and lets face it, you are locked and loaded. You have talent for it!

 

I would have sat him down and talked about your differences. He apparently sees things differently.

 

Tell him what your expectations are as far as sharing and finances, listen to his and from that moment on see if there is some

sort of compromise.

 

I know it sounds all choreographed and it takes practice.

 

I have learned to ask in and around the 3rd date about someone's attitudes about money/dating.

 

I've had men get seriously offending if I try to pay for anything. I have the exact opposite where men expect everything to be split down middle.

 

I have say I have never dated a man who had the expectations yours did. . lol

[BritterSweet]

I have to disagree with everyone who said she should have communicated her needs more because even if she did clearly say, "I'd like you to do this," every single time she wanted something done, it wouldn't matter because the times she DID speak up, he didn't care. She asks him repeatedly to stop sticking his hands in her food and taking from her plate, he still does it anyway and even brags and laughs about it to her friends! She asks him to stay on his own side of the bed, he purposely goes to her side and whines for 15 minutes. And if she tries to tell him, "I don't like this," he just dismisses her concern, and makes her dissatisfaction fun for him. (I always hated the "You're beautiful/cute when you're angry" phrase in movies).

 

He's selfish and inconsiderate. Maybe some cluelessness may factor in if he grew up never being taught to consider how it feels on the other side of his actions. But that's not your problem. Good riddance.

[browneyedgirl36]

In regard to the "common sense" thing: As one of my students once put it so aptly, "If common sense were actually 'common,' we would all have it." We just can't assume that everyone shares our view of what's normal, what's polite, what's expected. It SEEMS as though we should be able to, but...nope.

 

It would NEVER occur to me to go to my fiancee's refrigerator and start eating stuff/taking stuff without checking first --especially as he has children he has to feed, and that stuff might be for them and their lunches and breakfasts too -- nor would he do that at my house (even though all the food in my fridge is 'mine' because I live alone) because we were both raised that you ALWAYS ask before helping yourself to anything of someone else's -- or better yet, that you wait until it's offered before taking anything. Not everyone was raised that way, though, and it sounds like this guy wasn't, hence his insistence on taking stuff even after hearing "Uh, hey, can you not eat my stuff?" Sounds like he's so used to doing it that he just doesn't hear "no."

[Naomi99]

I have to disagree with everyone who said she should have communicated her needs more because even if she did clearly say, "I'd like you to do this," every single time she wanted something done, it wouldn't matter because the times she DID speak up, he didn't care. She asks him repeatedly to stop sticking his hands in her food and taking from her plate, he still does it anyway and even brags and laughs about it to her friends! She asks him to stay on his own side of the bed, he purposely goes to her side and whines for 15 minutes. And if she tries to tell him, "I don't like this," he just dismisses her concern, and makes her dissatisfaction fun for him. (I always hated the "You're beautiful/cute when you're angry" phrase in movies).

 

He's selfish and inconsiderate. Maybe some cluelessness may factor in if he grew up never being taught to consider how it feels on the other side of his actions. But that's not your problem. Good riddance.

 

You are right!

 

When we broke up on Sunday, I told him, "It's over, i'm moving on. Goodbye."

 

He left and went out of town for work. He texted me several times some small talk having nothing to do with the breakup, and then once to let me know he arrived safely. I said, "Glad you are safe."

 

Silence. Silence. Silence.

 

Then yesterday he texts me, "Are you going to come visit me here?"

 

???? Did he not hear anything I said on Sunday?? He does't listen to one thing I say!

 

Wondering if he as ADHD or Aspberger's.

[Naomi99]

In regard to the "common sense" thing: As one of my students once put it so aptly, "If common sense were actually 'common,' we would all have it." We just can't assume that everyone shares our view of what's normal, what's polite, what's expected. It SEEMS as though we should be able to, but...nope.

 

It would NEVER occur to me to go to my fiancee's refrigerator and start eating stuff/taking stuff without checking first --especially as he has children he has to feed, and that stuff might be for them and their lunches and breakfasts too -- nor would he do that at my house (even though all the food in my fridge is 'mine' because I live alone) because we were both raised that you ALWAYS ask before helping yourself to anything of someone else's -- or better yet, that you wait until it's offered before taking anything. Not everyone was raised that way, though, and it sounds like this guy wasn't, hence his insistence on taking stuff even after hearing "Uh, hey, can you not eat my stuff?" Sounds like he's so used to doing it that he just doesn't hear "no."

 

Exactly this. We were raised differently. I was raised more like you, BEG.

 

I know in my previous posts, I sound really annoyed and heated. Now that it's been five days and I've had time to think, I am realizing that he is who he is; we have differing values and standards and I cannot fault him for his choices simply because they're different from mine. Whatever money he spent on me, he felt it was comfortable in his own little world and those are his boundaries. On the same note, if that's the way he decides to treat the woman he's with, I can also decide not to be his woman.

 

To be fair, I think that was as far as he could handle in his own little cheap universe. If those are his limits and he's enforcing them, then I'll enforce mine too by moving on to someone who is more sophisticated when it comes to matters of reciprocation and the wallet.

 

There is a part of me that feels sorry for him. Without getting too detailed, he had a rough childhood and that's where I'm empathic. Doesn't mean I want to be with him, but it certainly explains some of the stuff I find plain weird.

[Jibralta]

I'm not sure how much is my responsibility to voice what I'd like out of a partner vs. what is common sense in a decent human being.

 

If you want to continue to like somebody, then it is your responsibility to let them know when they do things that annoy you or otherwise disrupt your life. That gives them a chance to straighten out so that you can keep being friends. It also gives them the power to reject you by continuing to do thing that they now know offends you. But friendship/love still has a chance here.

 

If you'd prefer to stop liking someone, then an effective, indirect technique is to NOT tell them that you don't like something that they do. That way, they don't have any chance to straighten out, and you count the times that they (unwittingly) annoy you and call it a character defect. In this case, they are not given any trust to betray.