friscodj

What other aspects of this relationship are you comfortable with? Is the relationship mostly good and fulfilling aside from this point? And let me present this to you. You say you have familiarity with patterns in your past relationships that you deemed to be negative. Making changes, even if they are positive changes, to this behavior will not and should not feel "right" to you immediately, as you are experiencing. What you know as feeling "right" is really "wrong" in your estimation. It will take time and experience for you to adjust what you feel and perceive to be "right" given your past history... And you are absolutely doing the "right" thing here. You seem to have a good clear perspective of this and are taking sensible action. And as an ancillary (or perhaps primary) benefit here, this situation will serve as a good test of what you have and/or could potentially have together on deeper levels. Keep doing what you're doing and how you're doing it. I think you just need to look past this one issue and more towards what it is saying about the fit you guys have together, feel OK about flexibility in going either way with that, and trust and believe in yourself more to these ends...

And I don't know if I could disagree with you more Beec. This is good...we're even then... God forbid we we be more direct with each other. What a terrible thing...oh the horror... Do you want to essentially tip-toe through a minefield, trying to locate and diffuse the mines, figuring out how to dance around them when you could be simply getting yourself out of the whole war? Is this person worth your time and energy to play games and continue to do so? Don't you want an answer here? Do you want this situation and your role in the play here to consume your life? Do you want it to bring and continue bringing negative energy to it and weigh on your mind, tying it up when you could be deciding to cut this thing clean and be done with it all? And haven't you already starred in the play? Why play a different role now? What is it going to gain you? Move this thing off Broadway already... I guess it does come down to the type of person you are and how you see things. I think at any rate this situation is not that serious and you'll be fine no matter what you decide to do.

She is dead to you my friend...and talking to the dead will only scare the crap out of you... There is nothing that she can possibly say that speaks louder than what she has already told her in her actions...

phreckles- You remind me a lot of me... So how is your communication both being received and understood and do his philosophies fit with yours? And you are right, he has done nothing wrong and neither have you. This does not preclude the possibility that you are wrong for each other though...

I definitely think waiting generates an associated excitement and makes the act more special...especially if you both believe in it, the love, and the connection you share together vs. chasing the superficial pleasures in the act, having it satisfy what you perceive to be a need with such, or succumb to the perceived adoption of what society says "should happen". I think it is definitely good to save something, have something to look forward to together, like a gift to open together on your special day, or holding a pair of airline tickets to an exotic destination you both know you will take together and enjoy immensely. I guess having something to which to aspire in this sense makes the relationship more exciting. This is true if you are both on the same page with this I think. Even though you say you don't want to talk about it, it sounds like you need to communicate more about your feelings, your concerns, what you see happening. People have very different views on this topic and just because the natural tendency is dictating a different default path for you two towards an end here does not mean the relationship is necessarily bad, unhealthy, or doomed. I think you need more communication about this topic and reach a resolution that puts both your hearts and minds at ease...

That's right buddy, this is the Fourth of July for you. You came, you saw, and you took it like a man. Now you know to stay away for your own good. Congratulations my friend...you just met the reality of this situation in a head-on collision... Your feelings you express here are normal and will persist. Grief will play tricks with your mind, generate illusions and mirages of oases in this emotional desert that are leading you to imaginary water through contact with her. But as you have seen and felt, these are nothing but dead end streets laden with drug dealers ready to sell you another hit of crack, i.e., contact with her, and will beat you, take your money, and leave you for dead... You don't want to go there again and now you know that...mission accomplished...

I think we all have a lot to learn... Instead of focusing on what you don't have, focus on what you do have. You have freedom to make choices in situations that arise. That is true whether you consider yourself to be "experienced" or not. Do the best you can, with what you have, when you have it. That's all you can do and thats all anyone can ask of themselves... Go out, meet people, live life, and don't worry so much!

Very well said CG... Perhaps in your case there is some commonality between your perceived failures related to your behavior around women or you just haven't met a right woman for you...who appreciates the painter instead of the paintings you paints...

Hey G- You are absolutely 100% kidding yourself if you think for a second you guys are "just" friends. There are waaaaaaay too many residual emotions manifested in unhealthy actions going around on both sides for a true friendship to be possible right now. Maybe later on, but not now... Everything I've read in your post tells me you need to make firm and real distance from him until this circus you have going on here finishes the show, packs up, and leaves town. You guys are headed for a falling out sooner than later I can see it coming a mile away... Make the distance, it's OK. People shun and stigmatize "making distance" as generally negative, often describing it as, "throwing away what we had", "being cold hearted", as a consolation for "missing them", etc., etc., etc. There is no need to rush into a "friendship" (notice quotes) too soon and if you do, it will be harder to have one later on as you remember this attempt at friendship and the associated weirdness. So some might stigmatize it but I see it as very clearly necessary here. But perhaps this is a situation you need to experience for yourself to convince yourself of this...

Hey B- It sounds like your deeper feelings are making you more sensitive to what you perceive to be rejection in the way of the expression, or lack thereof, of her feelings as indicating her feelings not matching yours and/or she senses your deeper feelings and senses some associated weirdness because of that, and maybe her own confusion with this realization. It sounds to me like you are on the verge of stepping into the Relationship Game-Playing Stadium here, trying to send and read signals and such, even considering feeding her the BS "busy" line. The time for all that is passed I think and I strongly suggest you come clean with your feelings on the situation perhaps. Perhaps ask how she feels about the situation you guys are in together right now. You're not really putting yourself out there too much but you are still addressing the underlying issue of your apparent confusion here head-on. If it comes down to it, just tell her you feel things getting weird between you two and think it best if you made some distance. Anything short of directness here and things are going to get weirder and more confusing for you. Just do it man...for your freedom and peace of mind if nothing else... At any rate, I'd err on the side of bluntness here...

Hey phrecklesrsexy- If you want to keep this relationship, I assume, not to be all about sex, then don't make it be so! You guys can create whatever relationship you want, that's the beauty of this. If you want to build a relationship aside from sex, then do so. You guys make your rules for your relationship...and it sounds like things are going well for you now so I wouldn't change anything... So how does your partner feel about this? Have you talked about it? Are you feeling pressure from them or the situation here and that is motivating you to ask this question? Do you fear sex will hurt your relationship, consume it perhaps? Questions to ponder I think... And another...what is your definition of love? Does it include sex/making love together? And does sex follow the love or does it help create it?

Hey C- Something else just came to mind, a different perspective perhaps. This situation is exactly like dealing with a death, two deaths actually: the death of the image and idea of the person you knew and with whom you shared love and the death of your plans and ideas for such plans for the future with her. There's going to be associated grief to deal with here. That is not only OK and normal but it is necessary. Your body needs to cleanse itself of this situation, much like being sick. You need to lay in an emotional bed shivering with a fever and feeling like death. You need to go through this and don't confuse this process with the perception that you belong with this woman, that she is right for you or change will take place and she will completely change and return to love you healthily forever. Also, situations like this can really mess you up on deep levels, deeper than those ENA can help you with. If you have access to speak to a therapist and feel the urge to do so, do it...

Hey C- Once again, let me say how sorry I am to hear you are in this situation. I know you are discovering new definitions of devastation on deep levels. I wish this wasn't happening... But it is happening and you seem to be seeing some clarity here. I hope such clarity sticks around and helps you find a favorable path through the grief here. My feeling is she probably lived a somewhat sheltered, privileged, maybe a favored life, one where she felt she had to act a certain way and uphold certain values, maybe in some senses forced to do so. It is normal and actually encouraged in my opinion for people to do some "exploring" during their developmental and formative years, adolescence, teens and early 20's in college for example. It's OK to make some mistakes during this period and they will happen... The point here is this is not a mistake she made. This has been going on for a long time and I don't see signs of her remorse here. If she did, she would not feel right about what she is doing and not go through with it...but she is... I feel her situation with her roommates and situation released some demons inside of her that were wanting to get out for sometime. Again, there is no excuse for doing this to someone. It is not your fault you never saw this side of her or never predicted such actions... I suggest you forgive her in your heart and keep your memories and love for her there as well, to yourself...because she does not deserve someone like you and the level and depth of love you provided to her. Quite simply, she is not for you... I also suggest you start a journal in the "Journal" section of this site. Chronicle the journey through grief here. I think that will help you tremendously. And lastly, I firmly believe Karma will do its thing here for all parties involved. It absolutely amazes me how true this has been in my experiences from both sides...

Hey C- Can people change? In my experience, small changes happen over a period of time, the length dependent on the depth and permanency of the change. These changes also do not happen on their own. I think some stimulus like trauma or a concerted effort at identification of an issue through therapy or self-introspection and dedicated conscious work to change is needed. I've seen this happen when people find religion, for example. The thing is, usually when this change is made, other changes also take place as well. Do I personally think this woman will change her cowardly and cheating ways like this? I think it will take a lot of stimulus and a lot of time... My friend, she did you wrong in a very big way. This is not your fault. If you were not meeting her perceived needs in the relationship, she had every opportunity to tell you such and end things before pursuing another relationship. What she did was not decent and there is simply no excuse for it. You are correct sir, no one is perfect. I think the issue becomes finding a good fit between your respective imperfections. And perhaps what one perceives to be an imperfection another perceives to be a very attractive positive trait. So can you live with this behavior? Is this behavior, is this imperfection OK? Is it OK for someone to treat you like this? Do you think she is truly sorry, feels the associated pain, and desires change? I sure don't see it...which makes this situation even more disturbing... And I have to tell you I am not being as sympathetic as you would like in a situation like this. I really do feel for you and I am very sad to hear of this situation. I can't even imagine what you are feeling right now. But this disconnection is good because I have a completely outside perspective here, unbiased by your very normal feelings to hold on. I think in a tough crisis-type situation like this, you need to hear the truth, you need tough advice for a tough situation. Her imperfection is not her shyness my friend. Do shy people do things like this? Was she shy every time she cheated on you? And as you said, she was not shy when she took the initiative to ask for a break in the relationship. So what is she then? "Selectively shy"? Come on... She is not shy but she is another word that begins with an "S" and ends with a "T". You are far better off without her in your life my friend... Forget her. She is no good. Will she ever change? And after this complete and permanent change, will she then develop a true and permanent love for you and desire to be with you no matter what...even distance and the temptations of another man? What about when you guys have children, a mortgage, car payments together? Why wouldn't this happen again? It happened once... Her departure is a gift for you. I feel worse for her and for this new guy because they are sitting right in the cross-hairs of Karma...

She sure sounds like a Venus Fly Trap to me... The crux of this situation is that your emotions are clouding sensible thought. What would you say to a stranger who posted this? Let me ask you this, you love her, right? Would you ever do this to someone you loved under any circumstance? I didn't think so...so why the double standard then? Because your emotions have overthrown your rational thought mechanism...a very normal outcome given a scenario like this... You're worried about this other guy turning out to be scum but she herself has shown you that she is "scum" herself. Where exactly is the "mistake" here that she made? I see an ongoing trend of mistakes 10 miles long. Everytime she cheated on you with him, everytime she lied to you either through words and/or actions, told you everything was OK, the list goes on and on. Where do you draw the line between an "honest mistake" and an indication of a lack of character...a character that will not change and that is necessary to weather the storms inherent in a marriage? Again, your emotions are overwhelming you right now. You don't care about anything else in the world as long as you can have her and what you had and your idea of her as a beautiful flower back. That is a very normal knee jerk reaction to this "sudden" (from your perspective) change. But this change is not sudden for her and every second of every day that she has been making this "change" has been another entry in the series of "mistakes" here... So what exactly do you think will happen if you chase after her? Is she going to completely and suddenly change her mind and feelings, and then permanently change her character. Then you two will happily ever after? Yeah right...roll the credits buddy... This situation is very hard, no doubt, and I am very sorry this happening to you. I urge you to listen to the rational part of your brain that has clear perspective on this. Then wish her the best because Karma is a... Never speak to this woman again. She is simply no good no matter what her wrapping and superficial qualities suggest... We'll be here for you my friend. Again, I am very sorry to hear of this situation.

This is the most important and profound realization of your journey here my friend. Never forget what you wrote here...never forget it...

Hey hail- Everything you continue to say is very normal, the curiosity, the paranoia, obsessive thoughts directed towards her and other guys, nothing sounds to be out of the ordinary. Keep going man. Class is in session and you're going to come out of this with a Ph.D. my friend...

My friend, I have seen firsthand many situations between boyfriend/girlfriend, husband/wife, fiance/fiance, boyfriend/boyfriend, girlfriend/girlfriend that were way more bizarre and seemingly unattractive than living with your parents. You're a great guy and you'll be a great guy no matter where you live.

Hey ML- It sounds like you are gaining clarity in this. I would also like to add a few thoughts for if/when you have this talk with him. In my experience, it helps to address issues you think the other person might be having before they do. This seems to make more of a connection with the situation and the underlying issues. It also demonstrates forethought and true concern for making the situation better, which tends to be contagious... Also in talks like this, I've found it best to provide some ideas for solutions rather than just presenting a laundry list of problems that can quickly become overwhelming and subsequently de-motivating. And above all, realize you are in the process of discovering an already established truth here and that this process will take time. This talk is one step in an expedition towards reaching resolution with issues that already exist. So there's no need to think of this talk and the process of discovery as contributing to the issues or making anything worse, because "anything" is already there, it is just being avoided it sounds. This might take some of the fear and pressure away here. At any rate, I sincerely wish you and your family the best here. Keep us posted!

Hey hail- Everything you've written since my last post tells me you are slowly and painfully but certainly surely figuring this one out on your own. It's all normal and closely related to firsthand experiences of my own and those of my close friends and family. There is a lot of value in firsthand knowledge like this and you're going to come out of this with a few more stripes on your sleeve...and definitely a Purple Heart... You are doing good. I suggest you keep writing, perhaps even start a journal in the "Journal" section of this site to keep things organized. Stay strong brother, I wish you many easier days ahead...

Ah yes, the proverbial question, "Do nice guys finish last?" I will provide my best answer... I see three main points here. There are the notions and definitions of "nice", "finishing", and "last". As far as being a "nice" guy, do you equate this to selflessness? Are you being nice to everyone else and not being nice to yourself? This seems to be the common denominator among people who ask these types of questions, as I have done before, in that we/they forget or choose not to be nice to themselves by letting people take advantage of, use them, proverbially "walk all over them", etc. There is a fine line between being a truly nice guy and a pathetic sap, one that is crossed by regular selflessness and fear for deviating from such. As far as "finishing", what are you finishing? The relationship? The possibility for future relationships, i.e., the dating aspect of your life? You are not finished. You will have more relationships I guarantee it. Closely related to this is the notion of "last". Do you equate the end of the relationship with losing? Other people in relationships win and you lose? I can tell you my friend that there have been a few relationships, more than a few perhaps, that in hindsight, I count every single one of my lucky stars I am free and clear from. 11 times out of 10 I would choose to be single than be in a bad relationship. I didn't see it at the time, but my life would have been hell had I stayed with her. I have no idea what I was thinking by staying with her. And since there is no such thing as a truly (a lot of people fake this) fruitful, healthy, and balanced relationship when only one person's heart is in it, ending such a relationship is not a loss. Plus, in this process, you are learning a lot about life, love, yourself, and other people, things no words can convey to you and will lead you to develop your own perspective and "methods", which someone else will share and appreciate. So you may take a beating once in a while and feel like the world is about to end, but you'll heal, be stronger and wiser the next time around (a time that will come). The world is not ending, and you are not "finishing last". You'll develop your own answers and necessary adjustments in your approach to and the understanding of relationships on your own, through your own experiences, and maintain your genuine character in the process.

Hey T- I think the hormones of pregnancy are either creating or exacerbating her insanity. Sounds pretty normal for a situation like this. I think your option right now, while she is carrying your child and with your desire to remain in her life is to proverbially "love it or leave it", sorry to say. You can certainly stand up for yourself and tell her you don't deserve to be snapped at, things like this, but the overall picture here won't change much I don't think.

Hey MissLissa- Well, I am glad to hear there is some forward progress being made here. Resolution here isn't going to come out of a hat like a rabbit, all of a sudden and completely, it will take time and take baby steps to get to better places I think. I understand your fears completely. Bringing this up and facing the "what ifs" you mention could be perceived as risky if you don't look ahead here. What might happen if you don't start facing up to a truth of the relationship? Is living like you are living better than the possibility of making improvements? I guess this comes down to how much you believe in your husband, believe in his devotion to you and the relationship, believe in what you truly have together, and what level of fulfillment you'd be comfortable living with in this situation. On top of that, could you live with the question in the back of your mind, day after day, "Is this the day he's going to bring up what we've both been avoiding for all this time?"

That's a great letter iceman. Straight from the heart and honest. Well done buddy. You'll never forget her and she will never forget you. You both played important and unforgettable roles in each other's lives. Everything in this life comes to an end sometime and this relationship, your time together, your roles, the generation of memories has reached their natural ends, their expiration dates. It's OK, things like this are natural. Even though it has reached its end, it will never be truly gone...the memories are only the distance to your heart away...like the live performance of the symphony ended, the show left town, but you still have the CD to listen to. And you'll make beautiful music together with a new woman and make new memories when the time is right for that to happen. Count on it...

Post it...I'll read it...