peterrabbit

Thanks everyone for the replies I guess you're right, I have to let this one go. I guess I just wanted to make everything all right between me and him, but if he's not willing to let go of it, well, I shouldn't force him to. I think I just don't like strife... I have some friends who are very hot tempered and sometimes get very nasty and personal, and mostly I just let what they say go because I just don't think, in the grand scheme of things that petty arguments are very important, and that they bring so much more to my life (when we're not arguing about the petty stuff). But thanks again this was very helpful.

Hmm. I think most people would have the same response. I'm not sure why. Sometimes, I think it's about closure. But maybe it's also because I can't get my head around the wonderful guy he was when we were going out together, and how awful he was and is when we broke up. I think what I can't figure out is, was he always that bad and I didn't see it, or was he good, and now he's being bad to me because I made him that way? And I want to believe that he is at heart good. I don't want to think of someone I went out with being a nasty person. We weren't right for each other as boyfriend girlfriend... but that doesn't mean we can't be friends, and I guess maybe I just want to know that he really doesn't think as badly of me as he seems to, given his behaviour and what he's told people about me. My current boyfriend is fine, thanks for asking He understands me well enough, and why I feel like I do. He's one of those rare people who is really secure, not jealous, and generally happy. I don't need him in my life in the sense that you think... when I say friends, I don't mean the meet every week for coffee etc., pour your heart out to kind of friend. I mean, the kind of friend where we can say hello once every few months, but most importantly - where we don't feel awkward everytime we do meet (and it is a very small world where I live). I don't like friction, or the thought of someone I used to date hating me to that extent. I had another ex at that party, and he introduced me to his fiancee. I don't really speak to him on a regular basis at all, but that's the kind of relationship which I would like with the ex in question - the one where when we do bump into each other, it's not uncomfortable, we can chat, laugh, meet each others' significant others... but I guess we don't always get what we want. Or maybe I really am obsessing... and I should let it go, without trying to understand the whys and wherefores of how everything got to this stage of ugliness.

My ex (whom I dated for an intense 4 months) dumped me about one and a half years back, saying he needed space and was too stressed out at work. I did all the usual stuff, tried to reason things out etc. but it didn't work and he said some really nasty things to me, so I stopped talking to him. After about 3 weeks of that, he tried sporadically to contact me, but I didn't want to speak to him because I wasn't over him. Then we bumped into each other, and he asked me out again, and I wanted to try again and I asked him to, and he said okay but let's take it slow this time because he didn't feel ready for a relationship. Well, during this time, I found out that he was flirting with other girls, and he really wasn't treating me nicely at all and I couldn't handle it because I really loved him, but I knew it wasn't good for me and before he came back into my life, I'd already really decided to move on. And I didn't want to be 'second choice'. So I gave him an ultimatum - all or nothing. And he chose nothing. Well, he had to be forced to choose, he obviously didn't want to give up his 'sex for free' thing. But he sent me a text saying that he knew he was being selfish, and he needed to let me go. But he was also really mad with me, because I told him on the same night that I gave him his ultimatum that I wanted to move on and date someone else who I had in mind. This person he considers a 'friend' of his - but I had met this guy before he even knew him, and they'd only really seen each other once. Ever since then, he's been ignoring me. And he told a lot of people that I was psycho and I thought all his friends were in love with me and I went around hitting on his friends... I still get funny looks nowadays from his friends. It really got me angry at that time. I'm still going out with the guy I told him I was going to move on with. We have a wonderful relationship, and even though we have rough patches sometimes, I think we will make it. It was a couple of months before we really started dating seriously though. But after I started going out with my boyfriend, I felt able to forgive my ex for all the things he had said to me/done/not done... you know. And ever since then, I've been trying to be his friend, but he doesn't want to make peace. I feel like we ended so badly, on such bad terms... and things don't always need to be ugly. We may not have made it as a couple, but I thought we would be able to be good friends. So every 3 months or so I send him an email saying that I hope he's doing well. I've tried to call him a couple of times, but everytime he hears it's me on the phone, he makes some sort of excuse and puts it down. I haven't seen him for over a year now, but 3 weeks ago I bumped into him at a club, and I sort of waved hi. When he realized who it was, he looked really shocked, but then gave a grudging wave. He then abruptly turned, said something to his friend who looked in my direction, and the whole group walked out of the club. I was like, wow, he must really hate me to do that. I wasn't even going to go up to him anyway, since I sort of respect that he doesn't want to have anything to do with me. He then had lunch with a mutual friend, and she was trying to broker peace between us but he was adamant that he didn't want to be friends. He said he had enough friends (kind of a social butterfly) and when he was done with a relationship he was done. Anyway, he's had 3 relationships in the one year or so that we've been apart. Then I bumped into him again at another party. He saw me first, and said hi to one of my friends (whom didn't recognize him at all because he'd only met him once). This time, I didn't go up to him at all, and just stayed with my friends and didn't go near him. I was debating whether or not to try to say hi. My other friends noticed that he was staring at me in a 'funny way' quite a bit, and he kept walking by me holding various girls' hands or having his hand around their waists etc. I didn't mind though. Anyway, I went up to him after a couple of hours and said hi. He said, hey, how have you been doing? I said good, how about yourself? And he said good, and asked me if I was happy. I said yes, I was happy and he said (in a dismissing tone) well, have a good time tonight. I said the same, and then I walked away. I figured that was it, but it was a good start. Maybe he'd be my friend some day. When I went to the kitchen/bar to get a drink, he called to me and said he would get me a drink. He made his friend pour me a drink, and ignored me. I took my drink and said thanks, and then he grabbed me and wouldn't let me leave, and pushed another friend in front of me to talk to me. He did that quite a bit the whole night - asking me to go with him to places (which I did, thinking he was finally ready to mend bridges) but then not talking to me at all and texting instead etc. while I stood there not knowing what to do. The last time, we were at the kitchen bar again and he's trying to force vodka down my throat. He said well, I guess I'll see you when I see you, and I said okay, well I'm really glad that you said hello today. He gives me the normal kisses (left cheek, right cheek), and then tells me I smell so nice, just like I smelled before, and then tries to kiss me a few times, and I resist (I am, after all, happily attached). He had been drinking a lot though. I push him gently away and say, look, I think you're a really nice guy and I really want to be friends. He says, I'm not a nice guy, I'm an a-hole - ask [friend] and she'll tell you that. I said, well, nevertheless I think you're a really nice guy and I will always be your friend. He looks at me and says very abruptly, 'I'll think about it'. And then turns away and talks to his other friends. And we go our separate ways. I really don't understand what's going on. Why did he try to kiss me? Why doesn't he want to be friends? It's been such a long time, he's moved on and so have I, HE dumped me and he didn't want to work things out, so I don't understand why he doesn't want anything to do with me and he's acting like he's the dumpee. I'm friends with all my other exes, and this is the first time I've had a relationship that ended so badly and I just think it's so unnecessary to always be awkward when we see each other. I don't know what I could do to make it better. I love my boyfriend, and he knows all of this and he's very supportive. I also know that despite the intensity I shared with my ex, I don't want to get back together with him, I don't see myself being with him again. But he was very important to me. And I care for him a great deal. I think a big thing for me also is how badly everything ended, and that I would like to be able to close the chapter on that. Any thoughts? Sorry that this is so long...

Well, I don't think you should go to Pattaya and win him back. To be honest, I think trying to have a long distance relationship with any man who lives in Pattaya would be terribly difficult. It's really tough on the relationship. No matter how much you trust him, the fact is that there is a lot of temptation in places such as Pattaya and it's really cheap to give in as well... I've read a lot of books about Thailand, because I go there about once a month and somehow I was really interested in the culture and the morals that would allow them to 'do what they do' and which would allow their families to live happily off their sons/daughters selling themselves in the sex trade. Thailand is a fascinating place. Corruption seems to work really well for their society at the lower levels, it's like a form of wealth distribution! Anyway I digress. But I can understand how living there, you're quite confused about what you're comfortable with morally etc. I visit Thailand quite often with my boyfriend and inasmuch as I like the place and how happy everyone there seems to be, I can understand how you would have a certain set of morals which you're quite happy with, living in the US, and then come out to Pattaya and have your world turned upside down - things that you would decry in the U.S., seem like they are accepted as normal - and then you start thinking that you're the crazy one, since everyone seems to think that the things you think are 'bad' are normal. Also, and this is a general remark (sorry if any offense is caused), but white guys living in Thailand - especially if they have been there too long - are not the best persons to date, for a variety of reasons - and one of those being the fact that their morals are warped by the permissive society they live in (or think they live in)- Real Thai society is very conservative, but it's very exclusive and very few foreigners get to see that. Instead, they are exposed to the poorest Thais, who mostly view sex/relationships with foreigners as the best way to improve their living standards, and will do and say anything to achieve their objective. Why is he living in Pattaya? Anyway, I wouldn't go there to get him back. For you to have any semblance of a normal relationship or to even have a shot at making your relationship work, he needs to move out of the sex capital of Thailand first. That would try the patience of ANYONE. Let him come and get you, if you're so important to him. I think it would be too tough to carry on a relationship with someone living in Pattaya, particularly if he has carried on with strippers before. Yes, I stand by my statement that he has been honest with you and you should give him some credit for that, and I think he does care for you, but to me - the fact that he lives in Pattaya and has shown no moral objection to 'carrying on' with strippers - AND lives in a place chock-a-block full of them and all of whom would throw themselves at him if he were to pay their barfine... it would take a better woman than me to put up with that. Plus, there is the fear of disease (they are not required to have medical checkups, and anyway they can buy a certificate of clean health for US$5). What I would do right now... is go get a medical checkup. It's not just AIDS which one worries about, but hepatitis is really prevalent there. And don't worry... now you're back home, you should feel more comfortable and you'll regain your view of black, white and grey very soon . Most important is that you should be able to live with yourself. I think you can let go of this one... it would take too much of a stretch for you to make this work, given the great disparity in what you're comfortable with, and it's really not your fault.

The real issue is whether you can forgive him for the 4 strippers. And you have to admit, he was honest with you in telling you that he was with the 4 strippers between September 05 to December 05. He could very easily not have said anything at all. You are right. Your behaviour in calling his ex girlfriends, reading his emails from his friend who is a girl, calling his sister-in-law whom you know doesn't get along with him because you don't trust him... you have been reduced to a child. But he didn't do that to you. You choose how you behave. And personally, I think you're being a tad bit controlling. You've read his emails to his girl friend, and assuming there are no improper remarks (since all you seem to be able to say is that they are long and elaborate), why cannot they continue to correspond with each other? Why should he give her up? She is a friend. This is your insecurity speaking. And it is in human nature to be contrary. The more you want him to give her up, the more he resists actually doing so. As for bringing you to a whorehouse, I have been to Cambodia and Thailand on several occasions with my boyfriend. The local girls at bars in these places are mostly all for sale. Even the waitresses. A guy could walk down the street in places in Thailand such as Pattaya etc. and just proposition any girl. For less than USD50 she will go back to your hotel with you. They are in desperate need of money. That's just the way it is. There's nothing you can do about it. But it's not as if your fiance is going without you. He brought you along. And he didn't go to the 'whorehouse' to get laid. He just went out of curiosity because it's one of the (in)famous places he read about. And it's a compliment to you that he said he wanted to share his experience with his soulmate, confidant, best friend etc. But really, it sounds like it is a regular hotel bar to me. Just that the girls are very forward in some of the less developed countries in Asia. But they're doing it for the money, and most people know that. I don't think that you are unreasonable for feeling insecure. Most women would be. But if you don't feel that you can forgive him, or trust him in the future, then you really don't have a future together. Just stop penalizing him, and making yourself miserable in the process. And oh, beating up anyone, even if you are a girl, is REALLY out of order. It may be that you feel insecure because the things he does and the way he is just fuels your insecurities. In that case, maybe you could talk about it and he could address those behaviours. Or it could be just plain incompatibility - what he feels is okay you deem is utterly inappropriate - and you'll have to come to some compromise on that. You cannot keep beating him over the head with the 4 strippers and whorehouse story. Anyway, doing so doesn't seem to make you very happy either. A constructive thing to do would be to consider what he could do to make you trust him/redeem himself whatever. If he doesn't want to do it, I suppose you're done. If he is willing to do so, perhaps you should give your relationship another chance and try to make things work (if it isn't too late). After all, you love him and he was honest with you, so why not? Search your heart. It's not as though you haven't known him long enough, since you were friends for 4 years. Think of the person he is, given your knowledge of him, and consider whether you think he's someone you can trust/worth your while to try to trust.

I've read some posts in this thread about how you either trust a person or you don't, but it's rarely that simple. Trust has to be earned, and it grows over time as you get to know the person. 4 months is not long enough objectively to really get to know a person, and how do you really trust someone you don't know all that well? I've also read comments about insecurity and issues. But it's only human to be insecure and to have issues. We all do - maybe not about the same things, but I really don't think that there is anyone out there who is fully secure about everything, even though they would like to think that they are or would like to be. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I think that the 'long holiday' did in a way cause you to break up. I think essentially, he didn't trust you enough at the point of time that you were going to take the holiday, and he was probably uncomfortable with that and started thinking that you were incompatible together. In a way, he was trying to be nice because he probably thought that there was nothing wrong with what you were doing, just that you had different expectations and different ideas of acceptable relationship behaviour and were thereforeeee incompatible. It seems to be a common male refrain that you shouldn't change who you are to be with a person - and I think he probably thought that, which is why he broke up with you. He didn't want you to have to 'change' in order to be with him. In a way, I think you could have been more sensitive in that you could have realized that he was uncomfortable/insecure and given him some reassurance. From what you've written, I think you fuelled his fears more than you calmed them down. I think objectively, he would not have been unreasonable in being insecure/uncomfortable in the circumstances, given that he really can't be expected to know you all that well and how you would behave on your holiday. He had valid concerns. But I'm not saying he was a total angel either, because you can't be expected to read his mind. If he was uncomfortable with you taking the holiday, he should have said so, and I believe that if he had, you would hardly have ignored his concerns - you would probably have tried to come to some form of compromise. But to him, compromise probably had the same definition as 'change', i.e. you shouldn't have to 'compromise'/'change' in order to be with him. Some people don't know the difference in definitions between 'change' and 'compromise'. He may very well be one of them. So really, there are a few issues here. Firstly, the lack of communication. Secondly, dispute resolution (e.g. breaking up posthaste without talking things over). Thirdly, consideration for the other person/looking at things from his perspective, rather than just from your own. But this is just my opinion.

i think lying is a sign of weakness in character generally. Especially lying about things like these. And it inhibits the growth of trust, which you need in any successful relationship. Sometimes people grow out of it, but I wouldn't hang around hoping for that day to come. Essentially, you've been around long enough in this relationship to have a inkling of what you are dealing with, and I think you know that it's not good for you.... otherwise you wouldn't be posting about it. Perhaps you should confront him about his lying. He may be defensive at first, but see what his reaction is when he calms down. That should tell you whether this relationship is worth saving or not. If he admits he has a problem and wants to work on it, I would say give it a chance (if you really love him, that is). Any other answer is anathema.

Honestly, I think that you should make your educational choices based on what is best for you and what you want to do in the future. Relationships come and go. You can never tell whether they are going to last, whether the person you're with at the time is the one for you. But you are responsible for yourself and your future. And you owe it to yourself to make the best choice you can for yourself. People may disagree with this advice. Certainly I think it is not one which should be applied to persons in all walks of life - at different ages, different considerations may apply. But when you are 18, I think it is really the best thing for you to do. If this girl is really 'the one' for you, she will understand and support your choices. LDRs are tough, but if both of you are truly committed to the relationship and have the maturity and emotional strength to support one another and make it work, that would be a very beautiful thing indeed. I hope it does work out for you. Relationships are rarely successful based on purely love. I personally think that there are five pillars to a successful relationship: friendship, love, respect, trust and passion. If any of these is lacking, it is hard for the relationship to grow or survive. From what you have said, I would highlight two points of concern: your trust in her and her commitment to your relationship, and her level of respect for you, given her behaviour. I am not saying that because of the problems/issues in your relationship, that you should break up. Certainly you can try to address these issues, and try to make things work. However, relationships require a certain level of maturity, and unfortunately maturity is one of those things which is only gained with time and experience. Even if you are mature enough, sometimes the person you are with is not. Sometimes a person may know what is wrong with a relationship, and want to address the problem, yet not know how to, because he or she lacks experience in that regard. They may get discouraged, and want to give up and break up because they just don't know how to deal with the problem or maybe because they lose the love because of the various problems in the relationship. There will always be problems in relationships. People are not static, and so once you solve a set of issues, another set may crop up as the parties learn more about themselves, their needs and desires, and what they want out of life. Younger people especially will experience a lot of changes. How you deal with those changes, and the conflicts they cause in your relationships, is directly related to your emotional maturity and strength of character. And of course, sometimes those changes will make you grow apart, and you will know when that happens and the gap is too wide to be bridged. I hope things will work out for you. On the rational side, because of all the uncertainty surrounding your relationship, and whether you both have what it takes to make it work (after all, no one can foretell the future), you should at least try to sort out your university choices first for yourself. Don't make a decision on something important in your life at this stage based on another person and what that person is going to do, because if it doesn't work out *touch wood*, you may end up with huge regrets.

To be honest, I don't think that there is anything that you could do that would make this easier for her. A broken relationship is always painful. If you just did NC, she would think you didn't care about her. Yes, that would help her get over things faster, but it will not help any potential friendship you may be able develop after she gets over you. The fact is that if you do this, you can forget about any kind of friendship. Who would want to be friends with somebody who abandoned you when you were so hurt? I think you should not ignore her. But equally, you should not encourage her. Always be very firm that you just want to be friends and you do not like her 'in that way' any more. It will be a bitter pill for her to swallow. She may rant, rave and scream at you and say things that get under your skin and which you think are unfair. But you should know that she is hurting when she does that. Don't react to her. Just understand her pain. She may accuse you of many things, including not caring. But because you were there to listen to her rant and rave, when she gets over things and is not so emotional over the situation any more, she will acknowledge that you did care enough to listen to her and to be there for her as a friend. If you keep reiterating that you just want to be friends and you don't like her any more in a romantic sense, it will begin to sink in. She will not call you as often, she may even avoid your calls (and i think you should still call her to find out if she's okay and if her life is good). But even though she avoids your calls in order to heal, your calling or emailing in a strictly platonic sense will resonate with her, and when she is over it, she'll appreciate the fact that despite everything, you still cared for her unconditionally. And that's the best grounds for starting a friendship afresh. It's not an easy thing to do. A lot of people would just give up and start ignoring her. It's easy to ignore someone else's pain. But the responsible thing to do is address the pain which breaking up has caused her and try to help her through that pain. I've done that with a lot of my exes. First they cry, scream, shout, yell, rave etc. After a while they stop calling and when you call them to find out how they are, they avoid you like the plague. But if you are patient, and think about how much you care for them as a person and continue to show you care for them (through emailing, SMSing or calling sporadically to find out how they are doing or just to say hey, hope you're doing well), they will eventually come around. i'm really good friends with my exes now. They have been there for me even through other breakups and other travails of life, and i have been there for them through their own. It's great, and i don't regret for a moment the effort it took. Hope this helps.

Thanks for all the replies. I spoke to him and he thinks I'm completely off base. He says he doesn't think that there is anything wrong with us etc. and he doesn't like Bangkok for the reasons that I think he does, just that at this point in his life he needs a lot of space to sort out his own thoughts about his life direction and that it's just the circumstances that bring this about (he's unhappy with his job and being made to stay in a place that he hates). I'm not sure that I'm entirely wrong about Bangkok though. I don't know. I guess I just have to be understanding that he's in a difficult place in his life right now. But it's hard to be understanding when his emotional unavailability makes him irritable and short tempered with me sometimes and then makes him pull away. He tells me that I take the best care of him of all his girlfriends, and why would he be unhappy in a relationship like this. But... maybe I'm being picky, I think I would rather he tell me he loves me the most, has never felt like this before, etc.... rather than I'm the most nurturing

I have a great boyfriend. He is 33, and I am 28. He is American, and I am Asian. We live in Asia. The problem is, he doesn't seem to value us very much. Everytime we have a 'discussion', he starts saying that we're not perfect for each other, we're just not right, we don't click, there are parts of our personality that just don't fit, so on and so forth. And most of the time when we have a discussion, it's because he's pulled away and become distant and he won't tell me why. I know he's having a hard time at work, and he says he tries very hard at our relationship, but I just don't see how he is trying. We are living apart at the moment because he got posted to another country here in Asia for a short period of time, and I get hurt because I won't see him for two weeks, and he'll say things like how he can't wait to see me, but then when i do fly over and see him, after a couple of days he will start getting distant and snappy and short tempered with me and literally cant wait to see me go out the door. He says it's not me, that he just needs space, but no one else can understand. After all, we live in different countries, so why would he need space? He flirts a lot, and he says he needs someone who will understand that. He doesn't want to change that. But somehow I don't think his flirting is just simply because he is at heart a flirt. I think it is also a case of him not being 'committed' to our relationship. Sure, he is committed in the sense that we are boyfriend/girlfriend, but he is not truly committed, and I don't know if I'm asking for too much at this stage (we've only been going out for 9 months). But the problem is that I know that his inconsistency and all these problems are going to go on for so long as he isn't committed in that way. He tells me that American girls would not have a problem with his flirting, and they would be totally okay with it. I studied and lived in Europe for a while, and I don't really believe that, but he seems to. He says I'm needy and I'm clingy and I'm not able to let him have his space. We live in different countries. How could I let him have more space than he needs? We are so compatible, and he says that too. Three weeks ago before I went to visit him, he was visiting me and he said to me (and he looked like he meant it) that he really wanted us to work out and he wanted to give me everything, and I said the same, and the weeks after that were perfect. Then I flew to visit him, and he got all short tempered and when I confronted him, he started shouting about how he didn't want to hurt me but he still had doubts about us and he didn't want to tell me because he knew how much it would hurt me and how that when i was hurt, he hurt more and how he couldn't give me what i want. And I just feel so... dejected. Like we will never get over this phase. I feel almost like I have to leave him before he will realize how much we mean to him. It feels like I am the only one fighting to save this relationship, because I am always teh one pointing out the fallacies, cajoling and persuading etc., and I don't want to have to do that. He says he wants the perfect relationship - no arguments, no quarrels etc. We are nearly perfect, and so compatible. When he is happy, it's 'We're not perfect, but no one's perfect'. When he isn't, it's 'We're not perfect' as how we should not be together. I feel like we're almost at the end of our relationship. I love him so much, but this is so bad for me. We both seem to be reaching the end of our patience. He used to call me back every time I called him. Now he doesn't when he wants his space (he'll say he's in a meeting etc. and cant pick up). He is thoughtful, he is giving, but I just think his expectations of me are unrealistic. And I know it's not just him, it has to do with the fact that he is in Asia and he gets a lot of attention, being American and tall and goodlooking and reeking of success. He gets a lot of attention, and there are a lot of girls in Asia that will be willing to do anything and everything to get a guy like that. That includes making the guy feel like a king and letting him do everything he wants. After all, they're only concerned that you provide for them, so it doesn't really matter as long as the golden goose keeps laying. But I don't need that from him. He makes a lot of money - more than I do - but I don't make that little either. After taxes, my take home is more than 150k US. I find it disturbing that everytime we have an argument, he wants to go on holiday alone for a weekend and he always wants to go to Bangkok. I trust that he isn't doing anything fishy there - he just likes the place - but it makes me insecure and he hates that. I know why he likes the place. It's the attention he gets there. But it's not real attention. He goes to go go bars and looks at girls and to the clubs in the red light district, and when I'm with him, I go with him to those places too. Even when I'm with him, there are girls (and ladyboys) who try to get with him. I just don't know how much more understanding I could be. He has to go to nightclubs where they have hostesses etc. for work to entertain clients with his bosses, and I know what goes on there, and he tells me, and I don't have a problem with it. He likes to go to go go bars and other places which are pretty dodgy, and I go with him. He tells me that when he got to Bangkok a day before me, he met two girls in the taxi stand at the airport (one went to send off her boyfriend) and they invited him to play pool with them, and so he went, and he told them upfront as well about his girlfriend. But one of them was also flirting with him, he said. And he gets upset because he says he wants to be able to tell me things like this and be honest with me without being afraid of my reaction, and he doesn't feel like he can do that because I don't react well at first. And when he says I don't react well, it means that my shock shows on my face and I sit there for a while and turn what he's told me over in my head. The kind of reaction that he wants is for me to just say 'oh okay' and be totally okay with it, and he tells me that 'white girls' would be okay with that. He knows that I'll be shocked for a while and come around - that is the reaction he expects from me - but at the same time he's disappointed. Even though he says that he knows it's something unacceptable in Asian culture and he should be more sensitive to it. And I personally don't buy that American girls would be totally okay with that story either and give him the reaction that he seems to expect. I wrote him an email and told him all that. I was honest with him on what I felt I'd done wrong, and everything. He replied to say he was sorry for everything and all the pain and anguish that he has caused and it hurts him to because he knows he doesn't give me what I want. He said that he was just being him and it seemed like a very painful thing for me to bear, and he was sorry for everything. I replied and said, "It's not always painful to be with you. I'm happy a lot of the time when you're not acting up. I understand the need to have your space as well, and i'm sorry for my controlling behaviours. I'm not asking you to be a martyr. I'm not asking you to say sorry for pain that you cause. It's me who causes my own pain. I choose to be with you and I choose whether or not to let what you do cause me pain. But the practice is more difficult than the theory sometimes. You are being you at this point in time, I agree. I accept you as you are, but it hurts and you should understand that you being you at the age of 32 is extremely painful. You at maybe 2 years ago and 5 years ago, were different, and maybe not so difficult. But you're really difficult now. Because you have totally unrealistic expectations and I don't think it's all your fault. It mostly stems from you being eligible in Asia where people value monetary status above all others because they're still at the survival need stage of the pyramid of needs. All I'm saying is please get a grip on reality. You want to enjoy the attention you get in Bangkok, fine, but it's just a cheap thrill and it doesn't last. Ultimately it will not fulfil you. Or maybe it does. In which case 20 years from now I'll see you there as one more old white guy. You choose your own happiness, and if that's what you want, then go for it. But at least I've warned you. You say you hate the root of being so much pain. But you are, and you refuse to do anything about it. People make their own choices, and you could choose to make it less painful, but you don't want to. In essense, it is what you want. I wasn't talking about myself. But I can understand the pain. You said yourself before that you should have realized and caught on to the fact that she was hiding her pain and done something about it before it got too late. I said you were being too hard on yourself, that no one is a mindreader. I don't expect you to read minds. I'm telling you straight out. Whether you do something about it is your choice. Maybe she meant more to you because you yourself said that you would have done something about her pain had you known. So now I'm telling you, but you don't want to do anything about mine. That's consistent with the fact that you don't value our relationship enough. I should be used to it by now. I wasn't angry that we didn't talk last night. Don't worry. I was perfectly okay. But I wanted to tell you this because I really think you're going off the road and someone has to pull you back and you have no one else who will. Just don't get sucked in. I'm telling you that in my friend capacity because I care about you. If i was thinking as your girlfriend and most of the time I am, I wouldn't have said anything at all so direct because I didn't want to hurt your feelings or make you think I'm judging you in a negative manner, because I'm not. I don't want to talk about this anymore. I've said what I had to say." I really don't know what to do. Is this relationship really a lost cause? Is it really time to let go? We have so much going for us. We're intellectually compatible, we care for the other person even though we are having difficult discussions and try to support that person. But I read all these self help books to try and cope and understand him, and he refuses to because he says that they are written for mundane people with mundane problems and that we don't have the problems that they face. I just don't really know what to do anymore. Am I asking too much? Do I have unrealistic expectations? Is it me and not him? I don't know.

No, you don't sound like anything bad at all Don't worry about it, if you were good to her (and i think you know in your heart whether you were), she'll definitely be contacting you. Why not? You make her feel good about herself. Who doesn't want that? I guess ultimately that's really the test of whether they will regret losing you - if they contact you after the break-up. obviously in some way you made them feel good about themselves. if they don't, well then you must've done something really horrible. That's one of the reasons dumpees don't feel good contacting dumpers right? Because they did something horrible, i.e. breaking up. And when you look back, what do you regret? probably not relationships in which you were dumped, but relationships where you were the dumper. So i think it's fairly safe to say you were good to her and she knows it. But regret doesn't mean that she will come back. Just means she will want more of those good feelings from you. Don't give it to her! Give it to someone who deserves it

I think she knows that you are into her. Really. I have always known when a guy is into me. Well, that is, as i have grown older. And the thing is... I don't mind hanging out with you so long as I feel that I have made myself clear that I don't like you in that way and you have understood and accepted that. Sometimes, they try again, but i'll just make myself clear again and continue to hang out as friends. Even my exes (the ones which I broke up with) - i have known when they are into me still... u can feel it. And to be honest... i think that people's egos are big enough that even if the dumpee is over them they will still think that the poor dumpee is still really in love with them in some way. In fact, I would go out of my way to hang out with you, but it wouldn't be because I like you in THAT way. Come to think of it, I probably liked hanging out with those guys because they were really nice to me (and they were probably really nice to me because they really liked me). I guess in some way I liked the attention. Just my two cents.

I know you're all right about that thanks a lot for the advice. My head knows you're all giving really sound advice... it's my stupid heart that seems to have no logic whatsoever... still longs (a bit) to be with him. Heh victoria beckham has this song with a chorus which goes "my heart's got a mind of its own, won't listen to a word i say, doesn't it know that I get hurt too, when it acts that way" !! I think it's rather apt Thanks once again... i shall listen to all of you and continue ignoring him.

Well... during the relationship he was okay. It was just that he got really stressed at work and the fact that there were a lot of constraints on his time, and he felt he couldn't handle a relationship because of all this. Then when he made up his mind to break it off and asked for space and he was stressed and distracted all the time was when he got mean. Sigh.... it's so difficult.

could do with some advice here. My ex (we were together for a rather intense 3 months where we saw each other a lot) broke up with me about 2.5 months back saying that he had a lot of issues to sort out (he was also really busy at work), the first month i was calling/emailing him once a week then he got really nasty during my last call and said with a lot of finality that we were totally over and some other really mean things. So we got off the phone, and one hour later he texts me asking if i got home okay and saying good night, but i don't respond to that because really, he'd made himself really clear that he didn't want to be with me anymore. So i didn't contact him at all for 3 weeks, and i heard in the last of the 3 weeks that he had gone on vacation to Bangkok. I didn't know who he had gone with, and I can tell you hearing that he was no longer busy at work and was off on vacation without me made me feel really terrible. But it also helped me realise that we were really over. Sort of a finality to it, you know? But I saw him on AIM during the time he was in Bangkok, and he IMed me saying 'hey there'. I didn't know whether i should respond, or how i should respond so i spent about 10 minutes being undecided and then logged off. (We've never blocked each other so I see him online all the time and him me... just that since the break up we haven't spoken at all on it). I've also bumped into his best friend almost every other week at different bars and places, but never into him. I figured that would be it... but 5 days later (i.e. yesterday evening) his best friend text messages me that it's his (the friend's birthday) and they would be celebrating at this bar and the table booked is under my ex's name. A minute later I get a message from my ex forwarding the text from his best friend... only he's added the words "From X" (i.e. the best friend). Of course I spend a lot of time wondering whether I should go (my best friend offers to go with me to 'face my demon' so to speak) but in the end I decide not to, and I text his best friend to say I won't be able to make it but I'll make it up to him when I get back from NY (i'll be leaving on Thursday for two weeks to NY to get admitted to the bar). My ex knows I'm going to NY in December but just doesn't know when. I'm just wondering whether I did the right thing. I do want him back, despite the mean and hurtful things he's said/done, but I want him to be committed to making things work, and frankly he's not done much to warrant me breaking NC. But I feel maybe the text and IM were a way of reaching out to me, and maybe he'll give up thinking that it's too difficult since I haven't responded. I'm not sure really how to proceed from here, especially since i'll be going away for 2 weeks. Or maybe i'm just thinking too much and he does really just want to be friends, and nothing more. What do you guys think? how should I play it from here? did i do the right thing in not going to the party? i do really want him back because we had such a connection - we both felt it was different. But circumstances and timing... always killers. i'd appreciate any advice... thanks!

i pm-ed you

nope. i'm sorry hun. I went through exactly what you did. it doesn't matter if they kiss you, they hug you, they want to cuddle with you.... ultimately, they still don't want to be with you.... told you that was what happened when i had dinner with mine. Which is why i sent him that email... i can't just live my life waiting for scraps from his table. Maybe he'll come around, maybe not - but either way, there is no going back for us. It will not be the same old relationship. There's a big crack down that ol' vase That is not to say that if you do have anything happening later on, that the new relationship will not necessarily be stronger and/or better than the old one though.... just that you have to let go for now. If you really meant so much to him, he will realize it and come back. Anyway, that's what I believe.

nope sounds good. keep it that way. u did good gal!

I realised i didn't really finish writing what i was going to say. He will either miss you and what you had, or he will not. sometimes the realization will take years, sometimes it will take months, sometimes it will take him dating another girl and breaking up with her for him to realize you were the best thing in his life. Take your time, but do move on. You seem to be doing pretty good with keeping busy. It will get better. He is already moving on. He has already made a conscious decision to stay broken up, and you know it. You have not made that decision and thereforeeee both of you view situations of contact differently. What he thinks when he contacts you: He misses you, he wants you in his life, he's feeling guilty about leaving you. But he DOES NOT WANT TO BE WITH YOU. He does not want the boundaries or the commitment involved in a relationship. He has made that choice. So what he is doing is, he's slowly weaning himself off you. Knowing that you're still hooked on him and you would have him back in a second makes you the best safety net ever. He's secure in the knowledge that you feel for him. What you're thinking: He cares.. if not he would not be calling me, talking to me, etc. Your choice is to talk to him in the hopes that he will get back with you. So you're heading in different directions. He is graduating towards being a friend and feeling less guilty about breaking up with you, whereas you still harbour hopes of getting back together and view any step as a positive step towards your goal. So one person is moving on while the other is still stuck where he left her. And in the meantime, you get hurt because he rejects you, i.e. tired, excuses, distance, etc. Make a conscious decision to let go, the same way he has. That way you're both on the same page. It's hard, I know, but it has to be done. Well... i tell you what, take the easy option for now. You may not be ready to make a conscious decision to let go, the pain may be too great to do so, but at least to him you have to SEEM to be letting go. Appearances are everything. Otherwise you'll just scare him off. Again, just my opinion... feel free to correct it, I'm not the best at this kind of thing myself.

The thing about no contact is... it cuts both ways. Every guy I know who is genuine and true to himself says that if they know they've made a mistake, no matter how hard it is they will come back and admit it to you and ask you to take them back. Sometimes the relationship is ideal to you, but not to them. If it was, and they were happy in it, they wouldn't have left. But there are also many other circumstances of life that may result in them not being happy during the time they are with you - in your case, probably work. Especially professionals who are pretty ambitious - if things are not going well at work they can get pretty down about things. And while they always say guys are great at compartmentalizing emotions, i don't think they're really that great at it especially when younger because they don't know how to identify the circumstances that make them unhappy and to deal with them appropriately. For example, he may be unhappy at work and may be moody and may not be as attentive as he would be normally. Then when you call him all his inattentiveness and he's really stressed, he may snap at you. This creates tension, you cry, he gets even more stressed and in his logical male manner think, well, the job causes me stress, the girl causes me stress, job stress + girl stress = more stress than i can handle, my job is more important to me than the girl - et voila, he gets rid of the girl. But the girl isn't the root cause of the problem. It's his inability to identify the original cause of his stress and/or his inability to deal with the original cause and/or a function of his priorities, i.e. job over girl. There is really nothing you can do in these circumstances. You are creating stress for him, there's no doubt about that. But unless you have really no expectations (i.e. you're a doormat), there is no way you can avoid creating stress for him. And why would he want a doormat? There is no win-win situation here, and really, you should understand it's not about you. He makes his choices and he makes his own bed, and he has to be able to make himself happy. I'm quite sure he wants you. He just doesn't want your expectations or your crying because he doesn't meet your expectations. He won't say he misses you too because he's afraid then you'll try to persuade him to get back together with you and he doesn't want that at this moment. no contact right now is good for the following reasons: (a) i think right now you're really still very raw from all the emotions involved in a break-up, so you really should take a step back and take some space. All the trying to get him back is just pushing him further away. He already knows you really care for him and you really like him. But your emotional neediness and wanting him (i.e. evidenced by asking him to come over etc)... he can't handle it. (b) you keep quiet, you can't show him the 'ugly needy' side of you which he's running away from. like jen said in her thread, gives him time to forget the uglier aspets of the relationship and remember the good things. really, if the feelings were real and he really cares for you, he will be back once he feels happier about himself. Well, my two cents anyway.

well it doesn't nauseate me... but i do need to totally let go before i move on to someone else. and for some strange quirk of conscience, i have to let him know that that is what i'm doing so that he can move on too. i know what you mean though.... it does get better. i was at your stage a couple of weeks back

oh well maybe you could read my thread and let me know what you think. Strange how you can advise other people but can't think clearly when it comes to your own situation...

well, i don't do so good myself either. i hope you do better than i do. But don't push him. I guess the one thing which is hardest to understand and accept is (like the book says) it's already broken. The thing is, he doesn't seem willing to make any effort to mend fences or to put any effort into your relationship so it's more or less over, and you won't be able to make all the effort yourself. He has to want this too. Doesn't seem like it's the case right now. And if he doesn't... it's better to force yourself to move on. That's what i'm trying to do myself. But I hope for your sake that your situation is better than mine... and things will go better. Will keep fingers crossed!

Well i wrote him an email on saturday - saying essentially that i knew he said he would contact me in a couple of months but he didn't have to, and i didn't think he needed to feel guilty about anything because i made my share of mistakes too, and i was sorry about them, i never meant it intentionally. I also said I knew he was really stressed, and i knew he would be fine and everything would work out. I said that space really did help with the clarity of thought and i knew that i would be fine too, with or without him. I also said that he should go date other people if he wanted, not that it wouldn't hurt me or i wouldn't feel anything if i knew about it, but i would accept it because it was part of the break-up territory. I also said that I wish I could tell him that I could be his friend and mean it, but for a variety of reasons I couldn't honestly say that that would be the case. I don't want to play games. I'm very bad at them and I play them enough at work that I don't want to have to do it in my personal life either. And i told him to take good care of himself. anyway after i sent him that email late on Saturday night, i went out with my friends to a club and i bumped into his best friend who was drunk off his face on a date gone badly wrong. I had to send him home and everything and he was drunkenly hitting on me all the time. He apologized on Sunday though. I know my ex read my email on Sunday afternoon when he signed into MSN. 15 minutes later he sent me a text: "Thanks for looking out for R last night...". I just responded with a "No worries". But he hasn't responded to my email. I don't know what to think of that. Is he just indifferent? To be honest, even him responding to say thanks for your email, you take care too.... I would want him to say that coz then I would know to move on and really close the book. And it would be the gracious thing to do. I dunno... what do you think?