Girlfriend Wants a Ring but…

[bluecastle]

So offensive. And so untrue. Including in my case. I was financially independent for over ten years before I married, brought my financial assets/nest egg into the marriage. Was ready to use them were they needed while I was home full time (husband was delighted to be the sole provider had that been required -it wasn't). I insisted on contributing financially from my savings/income growth while I was home full time and I did. Wouldn't have it any other way.

 

Totally agree. Life is exactly as expensive as you choose to make it, best I can tell in 40 years of living it. No need for tropes that reduce men and women to sock puppets in a play from 1940.

 

While I also agree with your earlier sentiment, Batya—about "all in" being at odds with the cohabitation compatibility "test"—I can understand the trepidation of Goodfellas. Goes back to what I wrote about in my last post, about how what she brings to the table is a bit abstract, since it sounds like she has not yet dealt with such matters as paying rent, bills, and so on. If I had a predisposition for wanting to understand the basic logistics of things—and I do—I would struggle with that x factor and can imagine how some time living together would settle the nerves, make the abstract more tangible. That said, he has chosen to keep investing in this dynamic, so to make something that has brought comfort (girlfriend living at home, squirreling away cash) a hurdle at this stage is not the most fair.

 

In this case, I think the important thing is that he is dead honest with himself about whether he sees himself engaged to her in a year and starting a family on her timeline. If so? Great, walk that line together, as it is hardly a pressurized time frame. And if what he is really thinking is "I'm not going to be sure about any of this until we've lived together for 6 months"—well, I think it's best to be honest about that so they're not using talks about marriage and kids to avoid a more honest conversation about where they both are inside this relationship, at this point.

[Batya33]

Totally agree. Life is exactly as expensive as you choose to make it, best I can tell in 40 years of living it. No need for tropes that reduce men and women to sock puppets in a play from 1940.

 

While I also agree with your earlier sentiment, Batya—about "all in" being at odds with the cohabitation compatibility "test"—I can understand the trepidation of Goodfellas. Goes back to what I wrote about in my last post, about how what she brings to the table is a bit abstract, since it sounds like she has not yet dealt with such matters as paying rent, bills, and so on. If I had a predisposition for wanting to understand the basic logistics of things—and I do—I would struggle with that x factor and can imagine how some time living together would settle the nerves, make the abstract more tangible. That said, he has chosen to keep investing in this dynamic, so to make something that has brought comfort (girlfriend living at home, squirreling away cash) a hurdle at this stage is not the most fair.

 

In this case, I think the important thing is that he is dead honest with himself about whether he sees himself engaged to her in a year and starting a family on her timeline. If so? Great, walk that line together, as it is hardly a pressurized time frame. And if what he is really thinking is "I'm not going to be sure about any of this until we've lived together for 6 months"—well, I think it's best to be honest about that so they're not using talks about marriage and kids to avoid a more honest conversation about where they both are inside this relationship, at this point.

 

Oh that's fine -but he said he was 100% sure she was the one he wanted to marry. And his need to live together to "test" compatibility is inconsistent with that for the very reasons you share above. There are no guarantees of what you wrote before marriage and seeing the specifics of how she spends/saves, whether she buys Charmin or generic toilet paper and how long she is willing to store leftovers are all well and good but there are only a hundred things like that that happen regularly over time in a marriage -and he might have unrealistic expectations if he thinks his living together test will make the abstract more specific such that it will limit the daily work of being partners in a marriage, limit the unpredictable stuff.

 

Like for me I never thought I'd be into buying generic products, that I'd be focused on saving $ in the form of not wasting food/toiletries/supplies (to an extent that is silly at times so I have to reign myself in), what I care about in particular about how our home looks or doesn't look, and how much more me time I need now that I'm a parent -and how much more draining social interaction is to me. I think these are all normal changes but it means that he wouldn't have seen those things had we lived together before marriage and before being parents. And if we'd gone into it with expectations of how it would be to live together while married I'm sure we would have had more stress and conflict as newlyweds.

 

He doe s have to be dead honest with himself, I agree. And I think it would be a huge mistake if he promised her that after 6 months of living together he'd then be ready to get engaged or talk about it. He can't know that and to pretend he would is self-dishonesty. Certainly it's fine like she has a timeline to have his own "let's revisit this in 6 months with the goal of getting engaged within the next 6 months"

[bluecastle]

Well put.

 

Much as I think it's important to try to "cover all bases" in such matters, I also think we have a pretty good sense in the gut about what we want, what we're feeling, what we're needing. Per another thread we were chitchatting in: it kind of comes down to a fundamental trust that you work well as a team, since life is going to change shape in all sorts of ways that can't be predicted, especially once children are involved. My impression is that Goodfellas remains uncertain about their teammate chemistry—and, perhaps, that his girlfriend is not thinking so much about being a team member as much as she's thinking about being a woman with a ring and the next 4 years of life locked down.

 

With some patience and solid communication it all seems like small divides that can be bridged with grace—a much better forecast of how two people work as a team than their toilet paper preferences. Horse, then cart, or some such.

[Batya33]

Well put.

 

Much as I think it's important to try to "cover all bases" in such matters, I also think we have a pretty good sense in the gut about what we want, what we're feeling, what we're needing. Per another thread we were chitchatting in: it kind of comes down to a fundamental trust that you work well as a team, since life is going to change shape in all sorts of ways that can't be predicted, especially once children are involved. My impression is that Goodfellas remains uncertain about their teammate chemistry—and, perhaps, that his girlfriend is not thinking so much about being a team member as much as she's thinking about being a woman with a ring and the next 4 years of life locked down.

 

With some patience and solid communication it all seems like small divides that can be bridged with grace—a much better forecast of how two people work as a team than their toilet paper preferences. Horse, then cart, or some such.

 

I really disagree with the cliche that just because a woman has and presents a timeline she's not invested for the right reasons. And certainly engagement marriage and trying to conceive are not guarantees of any kind of lockdown or planning for that time period - those kinds of plans are all fraught with good and bad surprises -especially trying to conceive. The timeline made me smile - because the timeline really is "when I want to start trying" (to conceive or adopt, do IVF, etc) not "when you have a child" -no guarantees. Ever.

 

If he is uncertain about "teammate chemistry" then he is not 100% sure about marriage because without being reasonably sure about that aspect of marriage you're not sure about marriage.

 

And I do think details matter in certain respects more than what people think -and I think on social media too many people post general abstract notions about "communication" and "patience" without respecting the nitty gritty. Certainly people can work out differences in toilet paper and brands of products, who does the shopping, other division of labor but certain things -practical things -dismissed as nitty gritty can matter a lot even with the best of communication. Like, how will holidays be celebrated and which holidays? Private or public or home schooling? How involved do they want the grandparents to be involved? What are the thoughts about travel and what kind of travel? How about relocating for jobs or academic reasons? Buying or renting? When? Etc. The boring and nitty gritty stuff can matter a lot.

 

 

 

 

For example, I didn't know my husband wasn't community-oriented -meaning, we relocated and he certainly has work friends and is part of his work team - but he really doesn't care where he lives, he really doesn't care that much about being part of our community, meeting neighbors, being involved. I care more so - not a great deal -but more so - and in real life this means when we ran into someone I'd known for years as a dad at the playground my husband was polite when I introduced them but not overtly friendly and extremely soft spoken in his interactions which, outdoors, meant we could barely hear him. I was somewhat uncomfortable. He didn't need to love the guy but since we were all originally from the same city and since we were standing near him during a caroling activity outdoors for a good 15 minutes perhaps my husband could have extended himself more. And I know he is on the reserved and shy side in certain situations and yes, even after knowing him the better part of 20 years I had to remind myself -he's not motivated to know people in our community, he doesn't care about that kind of "networking" so being polite is his limit.

 

An example. Of how despite good communication and patience had I known his take on relocating and becoming part of a community yes of course I would have married him but it would have been easier to deal with the real life ramifications of that.

[bluecastle]

You're such a great voice on these matters here.

 

I really didn't mean to edge toward that cliche. I think her timeline is very sensible and I have only respect for people who know what they want, if I admit to bristling a bit at the mode of execution. Passive aggressive stuff has never sat well with me.

 

All in all—and I'm sure he'll be back—I'm just kind of trying to figure out where Goodfellas is hesitating, to help him locate the wiring under the hood. Perhaps it's because so much of the nitty-gritty you've just outlined remains abstract? I'm imagining being in a position of proposing to someone who has never lived outside her parents home—and, honestly, it's difficult.

 

There are simply a number of things about life that she has not had to worry about yet, which happen to be things that Goodfellas has spent the majority of his adult life, like many young people, worrying about and navigating. I wonder if he's feeling a bit "alone" on that front, as she's feeling a bit "alone" on the ring front, and if a few steps toward each other could help bridge the gap and pave the way, if that makes sense.

[smackie9]

OP you and your girl get your financial stuff ( loans, credit card statements, banking info, tax papers) together and go see a money/fiance planner. They will look at what you make, where the money goes, and how much you will need to make or put away for all these things for the future. It will give your GF a bit of a wakeup call on the expenses of paying for babies, being off work, etc. are going to be, and how much you both need to make. Could be working extra OT or getting a second job, getting rid of a car, etc. Making up a budget for the wedding, and most likely giving some things up.

[SherrySher]

Engaged by 2021?

 

Honestly..that sounds very fair.

 

The majority of couples are nowhere near financially stable when they get married. As long as you both have good jobs, no huge debts and work well together in a relationship and with living together, I don't see why you wouldn't get engaged by 2021.

[SherrySher]

I'm assuming she works full time?

 

Smackie, makes a good point, sit down with an advisor, have you and her see what it takes to run a household with children and only one working parent and see if it's feasible.

 

At the very least, you'll both get a better idea of the costs of living together with a child, etc.

[Rose Mosse]

I think the money part is not so difficult. It's working through your anxieties and this anxiety and misgivings towards your brother that stood out to me.

 

Have you thought about working through your relationships with your parents and your siblings and reconciling your misgivings against your sibling? I feel like a large part of your hesitation and anxiety is coming from your relationships actually with your immediate family and not your girlfriend. You are unsure about what your reaction might be if you encounter hardship and are afraid of repeating your brother's mistakes. These have nothing to do with your girlfriend at all but she becomes collateral (your relationship becomes collateral) because of misgivings towards your brother. Why do you distrust yourself so much or the ability for your girlfriend and you to work through hardships together without repeating mistakes you dislike about certain family members?

 

Have you turned to your parents before in times of need or have you felt embarrassed in the past for having to do so?

 

I'd backtrack where those feelings of fear and misgivings are coming from. I think it stems from having to ask for help if you need help and from appearing as a failure as your brother appeared to be a failure when he had to ask for a loan. There are issues there with your relationship with your brother. Try working those out and demystifying it. I'd rekindle that relationship with your brother if it's feasible (if you don't have a close relationship with him). I think you need to make peace with your family members before you start creating a family of your own.

[itsallgrand]

This may sound very basic but do you want to be married? Do you want children?

 

You seem worried about the potential costs of being financially merged with her. Am I right or totally off base here?

[reinventmyself]

Women often want to get married and have kids. If you want to date women, it goes with the territory.

 

Also, usually women want to get married. Men want things to stay the same. But the women are right.

That hasn't even been my experience and I am a woman. I typically met men that wanted to marry and have families.

 

Be careful with the generalizations. .

And `the women are expensive' comment is insulting too.

[reinventmyself]

Is it possible with the impending move in, she's concerned that it will stall and she'll be your roommate indefinitely.

 

Would it be horrible to be engaged and put off committing to an exact date? You two do want the same thing after all.

 

Maybe she's just looking for some security before she moves in plays house with you.

[Clio]

Having children at 4 years time is not "right away" by any means. Her timeline sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Initially you made it sound as if she was asking you to have children within a year or something. Sorry but the "s71+ or get off the pot" saying, already mentioned by someone else, also came to my mind when I read that. 4 years is almost HALF A DECADE for God's shake. Personally, I wouldn't stick around waiting for a guy who was squirming about such a timeline. There are too many stories out there of women who lived to regret bitterly the type of waiting you ask of her. To me what you described sounds like a type of commitment phobia due to negative family experiences. If it was my sister or daughter and they came to me with what you wrote, I would advise them to drop you NOT humor you. To me it sounds like you are incompatible due to lack of timing.

[MirrorKnight]

Having children at 4 years time is not "right away" by any means. Her timeline sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Initially you made it sound as if she was asking you to have children within a year or something. Sorry but the "s71+ or get off the pot" saying, already mentioned by someone else, also came to my mind when I read that. 4 years is almost HALF A DECADE for God's shake. Personally, I wouldn't stick around waiting for a guy who was squirming about such a timeline. There are too many stories out there of women who lived to regret bitterly the type of waiting you ask of her. To me what you described sounds like a type of commitment phobia due to negative family experiences. If it was my sister or daughter and they came to me with what you wrote, I would advise them to drop you NOT humor you. To me it sounds like you are incompatible due to lack of timing.

 

Agreed, especially the first part. In 4 years, she is pushing mid 30s... she really cannot afford to waste the prime of her life with a guy dithering about a very generous timeline. If I were her friend or relative, I would recommend a much stricter deadline. Too many men treat women like rental cars, "test drive" for years without committing to buy. Hugely irresponsible and cruel. I don't know why women put up with it.

[abitbroken]

If you are talking about moving in together, then i understand why she would want to be married.

If you are sure she is the one, then she doesn't need a "trial" to see if you can stand her bathroom routine or if she puts her socks in the hamper.

I understand why you would want to wait another year - 2 years is enough dating for some and not for others, but telling her its about money is lame - because couples save up when they are engaged for the ceremony, etc.

 

Honestly, having compatible general morals, healthy relationships with money, background, good conflict skills, etc, are better indicators of a lasting marriage vs trying someone out like some reality show.

 

If you don't want to get married, tell her the truth.

 

Kids are expensive, but after the birth expenses, the day to day of feeding an extra mouth isn't a lot. An extra bowl of cereal and what not. But you will have two incomes, not just yours. Even if she stays home with the kids for a time, you can save up or a year or two, etc. and you learn how to entertain yourselves cheaply with kids.

 

My parents probably had less than you (if you adjust for inflation), one car, they were a lot younger and we wore hand me downs and sat on second hand furniture, but we never were without food.

 

its better to have kids if you want them than to look back at 50 and regret that you didn't because you thought they would be expensive.

 

I can understand why 20 year olds want to play house, but it makes no sense for 2 people in their 30s who want to get married ultimately to put the other through a move in trial

[Billie28]

Thank you all for your replies. To answer a common theme: finances are not a coverup for a larger issue. I am 100% certain we’re right for each other and I know I want to spend the rest of my life with her.

 

I told her last month I want to live with her first to see if the compatibility still exists and she agreed. So we’re looking for places to move in together but she still sends these not-so-subtle hints about wanting to be engaged by end of 2021 and a child by 2024. Every time she does I remind her I’d like to be roommates first, then “have the talk” with her dad then I’ll do it and she backs off…temporarily.

 

I’m all in with this girl but my middle class upbringing coupled with recent developments from my brother (42 with a wife and two kids) are spooking me. He recently borrowed $50k from my parents to cover his own mistakes, catch up on car payments and mortgage and honestly I never want to do that to my partner.

 

You are 100% certain she is right for you?

 

Well then why are you taking her for a test drive? Some guys are 100% into BMW’s take it for a test drive , even take one home and suddenly realise they want a Mercedes!

 

She needs someone committed to her. She might be VW beetle. Someone will love her as is and not need to test drive.

 

Now what’s your reason or excuse?

Agree or don’t.

But don’t insult her and move in with her under some pretence?

[catfeeder]

wanting to be engaged by end of 2021

 

You have a year to propose, apparently, so why put yourself in a pressure cooker now?

[abitbroken]

If you do not want to get married, that is totally fine, too, but don't move in with her, then. I think moving in right now would be a mistake either way. She will be thinking moving in as a step, and moving in to you is a wait and see - let's see how moving in together goes. its not the same. just my two cents. So tell her you would not like her to propose because you are not ready to get married. Be very clear about that.

[Seraphim]

If you do not want to get married, that is totally fine, too, but don't move in with her, then. I think moving in right now would be a mistake either way. She will be thinking moving in as a step, and moving in to you is a wait and see - let's see how moving in together goes. its not the same. just my two cents. So tell her you would not like her to propose because you are not ready to get married. Be very clear about that.

Exactly, that.

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