caro33

Yes, I knew a guy like that once and was disgusted by his antics. He was a friend of a girlfriend's boyfriend (!) so I got to watch his behaviour from a distance - see him lure women into his web and hear about he had a few on the go at once. He had a wife at home with several small children and I felt immensely sorry for her. But he's the only one like that I've ever known so I hope that such extreme dirtbags are few and far between. I have to say I have had only the garden variety dirtbag/slimeball myself, but I've had some shockers. Yes I admit I knew my guy was smart but I actually had no idea of how smart or the degree to which we would be compatible. He seemed nice and we seemed to have a similar sense of humour. Usually it's the humour that reels me in, and usually that means I have hit my garden variety slimeball. (I seem to have slimeball guy humour *sigh*). But in this case I had a completely different type and before I had the chance to drop him for not being a slimeball he had me hooked. So, luck maybe. Anyway, pick a cliche - 'you'll be right', 'he's out there for you', 'plenty of fish etc' (to keep up the seafaring theme I seem to have started)... I'm sure your reading athlete awaits, when you are ready.

I am a firm believer in going watching kids' movies when in this state. Take yourself to Charlotte's Web or Happy Feet or whatever is out maybe? Or a DVD. Avoid all rom coms and dark arthouse movies. Hope you start to feel better soon.

That sounds like you have done the right thing, and this must be hard given the no doubt conflicting and powerful emotions this would raise.

It's usually a good idea not to tell your family until things have settled down a bit. I hope you are able to talk in person to a friend soon though, I am not a big fan of bottling things up. What a shock. We are here for you.

Yes, he's quite the big fish. Maybe he's having some kind of adolescent turn and he's decided he can merge it into his life with you. Good for him. You've answered own own question haven't you? What's your next move?

Re the investment angle, I have written about this before, but when my ex and I had problems two years in, my best friend said to me to end it, why did I stay. I was horrified that he could suggest that because I had invested two whole years and wasn't going to give up now. Eight years later I had invested a total of ten years for someone who decided he 'didn't feel like being in a relationship right now' and 'wanted to focus on his mountain biking'. My friend gave me a hard time about the investment angle for years. Whenever I had a bad dating experience he's tell me to hang in there for the investment. You can't make them want to commit. Not ever. And I agree with RK about him using sex as an excuse. What's the deal right now as he's sees it, is he in a holding pattern with you until you start putting out? How does he rationalise his staying in the relationship, and how does he rationalise your staying?

kaligrl I don't think the news here is good. I spent many years with someone just like this and the fact is that even when we got engaged he never saw his future with me in it. I had exactly the same experience with the lack of future planning, the expenditure on himself. Six years is long enough. The spending money on his own stuff and using the 'I' word for the future just reinforces that this guy, for all his wonderful qualities (which I assume he has) just does not have it in him to commit the way you want him to.

Hi Violette, all I can say is try and not take it to heart. I went back over a recent thread you contributed to and it looked to me like someone assumed they knew you you were, or that they were using your post to interact with someone they thought were using your thread. I haven't read other posts of yours but if that one prompted this current thread I can see why. I think you write very well. However someone will always find a way to misread and be un-generous if they are so inclined. And with so many of the deeply emotional threads on this kind of forum, there will be people who are so inclined sometimes. I also take people's attacks to heart, hard not to. Because I mean well I get hurt and a little shocked. But imagine who those people might be, what place they might be coming from. They could be so different from you in age, life experience, biases, culture, country and religious perspecive. They don't know you at all, and they can't ever purport to. Agree with melrich, if someone is out of line, report them. Hey, I personally suffer from paranoia that I am a thread killer.

I would have thought there were heaps of guys who enjoyed reading along the lines you described, but maybe they don't actually identify themelves first and foremost as readers, and thereforeeee aren't in literary clubs etc. I and my guy are both avid readers but that never came out in our earlier dates, it wasn't something we discussed. Not that that is even remotely helpful. It really is such a crapshoot, finding someone compatible. I guess I can only offer the hackneyed but true lines such as 'it's a numbers game, get out there' etc. But you know that... And standards are great - and mandatory! - but is there a chance you are being too critical to start with? I mean when I met my guy I thought he was nice, but wasn't set alight with chemistry. He turned out to be a high-falutin' martial artist and I just thought 'hmmm' and hoped he wasn't a meat head. It took a while for him to show himself, and for me to find that Mr Martial Artist highschool jock was in fact also the library monitor at school and spent all his time reading. I'm in the policy/politics area and he's in a completely unrelated field, and he continues to embarrass me with how much more he knows about my area than I do. Introspective book types who don't identify themselves as booktypes can turn up in interesting places, as can smart guys. (Actually I find the ones who identify as smart and/or literary can be the biggest w*nkers and are often not that smart anyway. You know, they're so dumb they think they know everything.) Maybe I was just lucky my situation turned out so well, but I guess if I was being really picky I might not have seen who he was. Sound lecturing, sorry. Sound also like you hit the slimeball jackpot with that guy - I dunno, the charmers are charmers for a reason. He probably wasn't being real with you, it was his game. If he's in his 30s or so he'll be well practiced, try not to blame yourself as having faulty radar. Keep saying 'I don't want a relationship' as a mantra and I reckon Mr Perfect will come knocking on your door. Life seems to be like that.

I had my ex-fiance up and leave after 10 years with no explanation. Devastating. It's the goldfish bowl memory I love. When I had my relationship loss I couldn't maintain a track of thought for more than a few minutes - I'd be mid-sentence and my brain would kind of de-frag and I'd have no idea what I had just been saying. And the stomach pounding, the anxiety building in your organs like there's another heart there. Although I needed to lose weight the weight barely dropped when I stopped eating - I think my metabolism acclimatised. When I started eating breakfast again i put on weight. Not good for the self-esteem. If good health and nutrition won't make you eat, think of the vanity factor. Also, no wonder many people never sleep and are constantly emotional if they don't eat - at least chew some jellybabies, your brain needs glucose to function. My nightmares went for well over a year, to start with every night was a whole story of why he left, what really happened. All the most paranoid and disturbing cheating dreams I've ever had. Over time it metamorphosed into him coming back to me, and me saying 'err, you just up and left with no excuse, I got happy, I don't want you'. Now it's pretty much 5 years to the date since it ended and my life has changed in 1000 different ways, and all for the better. Hang in there guys.

Sorry but he just doesn't sound up to what you want, and he's told you that. Everything you said points to an easy answer, but one that I imagine is causing you some grief and is unpalatable. He's being selfish to offer to come back to you on these terms - he can't absolve himself of the requirement to be a 100% husband and father if that's what he's coming back to try for. It sounds like you will be compromising yourself and ultimately will be disappointed if you accept this situation.

hey finewhine, what is a 'real' reader? Could he be a reasonable reader, someone who enjoys books, but also has other pursuits while you read? I mean, is a core criterion for you to share a love for the same books and be able to talk about them intelligently together?

Sweetheart I'm sorry but ANYTHING is possible. She could have randomly changed her mind about you, she could have been warned off you because her family didn't like your smell or the suburb you're from. She's young enough to take them seriously and live by their perception. Many people are just plain weird. The key advice I would give you now is try and forget about this, there is nothing more you can do. No more contacting. I realise not knowing is infuriating but you just can't make someone open up if they don't want to. You can't make them like you, you can't make them not be weird if that's how they're inclined. I know that doesn't help. But so many of us have all been where you are right now, and I'd be sure that no one will have a positive story of how continued phonecalls/texts/emails turned the tide for them. She knows where you are, do not force this anymore.

It must be draining, but it's draining for her also no doubt. So there has to be a way to kickstart some progress beyond the blame game etc. If this has been going on 2 months and you only said you saw her point of view a few days ago that also sheds light on to how this is taking a while. Maybe she just didn't 'hear' that you saw where she was coming from before then, I don't know. I would probably be angry for a while if I saw my husband do things that looked dubious and he didn't seem to take my feelings into account or acknowledge the situation. I'm not saying that's what's happened here but the timeframes suggest it. At least you're empathising now. I guess if I was you there would be a script I would stick to: * You are very sorry for hurting her, it was absolutely not your intent. If you had known it would have hurt her you woudn't have pursued the friendship quite as you did (ie no alone at home etc). * However this was not about her, it was about you being alone and providing some assistance to a new friend. The two relationships are completely mutually compatible and the co-worker friendship was never a threat. * You would never allow something to threaten the relationship, ever. * For that reason, while you see her perspective, you cannot agree this was an emotional affair. Perhaps that's how it looked, but that is not the reality. * You now understand your wife's perspective on this and the potential dangers of opening up too much to a close relationship with the opposite sex. While you want friendships, and will have them, you will conduct yourself more carefully now. I realise that's what you've been saying to some degree, but my advice is to stick to it. Stick to those points, no diverging, no taking other people's emotional language and using it to describe what you did (ie the reality not the perception) if you are not 100% sure it's appropriate. If she's never been a drama queen before then have hope she moves past this. But she's had a shock, and all you need to do is read the threads in this forum to see that affairs start out exactly as you described your friendship with this woman. Your wife is in her own world of 'what ifs' right now and she's not so sure it's all hypothetical. That's without even addressing her experience at training. Hang in there, I'm sure she's worth it. These blips happen.

I tend to agree with the above. I might also add that maybe he still fancies you, hence the attention, but he might also be feeling that 'I like/respect you too much to date you' thing, where he knows he doesn't want to settle down and so doesn't want to lead you on. I knew guys in my early 20s like that; I had friends who were broken up with because they were 'too good' or some similar stuff. At the time I thought it was a line or excuse, but in hindsight I think they knew what they wanted and while they liked the girls in question they also knew they couldn't commit just yet. The simplest answer is to look to his behaviour, not what anyone else might have told you about his motivations. Yes, he's a nice guy, and he's attentive. No, he's not interested in pursuing a closer friendship or otherwise at this stage. Not much you can do about that. Best to let things slide, see how you go, then contact down the track sometime. Maybe you have been giving off 'I want you' vibes that might die down and let you pursue that friendship. BTW, there is such thing as a true male friend, but from my experience if there are no romantic intentions it's pretty clear. My closest friend other than my husband is a guy, and we've been close 12 years or so. We tease each other awfully. We may notice things about each other, but it's all wrapped up in good humoured buddy stuff. No ambiguity, no excessive sweetness. But maybe that's just us.

Well she's pretty impressionable then - how old is she. Did anything happen with the family? On the other hand, maybe they really came down hard on her about 'appropriate' behaviour and leading guys on, and she's really angry and down about her situation. Maybe she's associated you with those bad feelings. This doesn't sound like games, but like something is happening with her that you just aren't tapped into. You didn't know her well enough to start to know if she ran hot and cold, I assume. Maybe there's a whole lot of problems with the visitors etc that she just doesn't want to share. Could be really personal, I wouldn't push this any harder. You've done the right thing, now leave it in the lap of the gods and see if she comes back (and if you are interested whe that happens). Sorry though, always tough to deal with this stuff.

I wouldn't expect you to know how to move on for a while yet, the shock has just kicked in, and you'll need some time to process this. Just hold off doing anything for now, and have a cry, go for a jog, either wallow completely (which I would do) or go and distract yourself. I won't bore you with the 'it will get better' cliches (but it will ), just hang in there. Perhaps he's in shock too - god only knows what's going on for him right now. It could be a complete maelstrom in his head and he's trying to 'do the right thing' by the other woman. Not that I'm saying he's worth your time, just suggesting that you should try not to take his apparently callous way of ending things with you to heart too much. It's in no way a reflection of your worth or what you shared, I'm sure.

I think I end up agreeing with the other posters then lostnpain, it sounds like she's had a shock, but that she might be overreacting. I do not agree that you have had a emotional affair. From my reading of EAs they are typified by a desire to share with that person MORE than with your current partner. Or at the same level. If your wife had been available and you would have gone like a shot to spend time and bond with her over this co-worker, then I would not buy in to this being an EA. I wonder if you agreeing it was an EA, after saying it wasn't, has helped make this more problematic for your wife. I can imagine if it was me, I would view that turn of events as you being in denial to start with, or lying to me, and then admitting that 'yes the other woman did constitute some threat'. I mean, that's what we are talking about here isn't it - the difference between a real threat and a misunderstanding. With the underwear being found on top of all that, no wonder your wife doesn't know how to evolve this - she doesn't know what your next admission will be. Now I'm not saying this is all your fault, but I can see why she might be struggling to move on. I seriously advise you do whatever possible to explain to her that you have been confused about what an EA actually is. Check her understanding of it. Explain to her that you were not even close to committing emotional infidelity. Her position in your lfe was NEVER in jeopardy. Have your cousin call her to explain about the underwear, have your wife go to her house and SEE the rest of the collection, look in the whites of your cousin's eyes and see that she's not lying. I know that sounds extreme, but until your wife is convinced you are not lying I can't see how she's going to move forward. If I was her I would need to feel safe and secure that there would be no more surprises. I would need to know that the underwear was absolutely not another woman's (that is, a relationship threat). I would need to know that you never ever meant to take things anywhere with the co-worker, and more specifically, that the co-worker was never in any way competition for me. I would need you to be absolutely clear that you realise that you were a little naive with the situations you put yourself in, but that you never had feelings for that woman. Your admitting to an EA, even with the best of intentions, takes this into another realm that you need to get it away from. I also think that if there's been no evolution of this issue over all that counselling except for you to take blame for more damaging stuff than what happened, it's worth trying another counsellor.

Hmm. I don't know. I'm not sure what he's like the rest of time, what's his usual pattern. I can imagine a whole bunch of completely different characters here, with different motivations, so it's all purely guesswork from my end. If he is a nice guy, seems able to handle relationships, doesn't still live with his mother at age 40+, but perhaps shy, maybe he's nervous about forming a relationship with a student's mother. Maybe he's had a terrible past experience along those lines. He thinks he is in love with you and he doesn't know how to handle this. He vacillates between telling you he cares and telling himself he doesn't and shutting you out. He stares at you to look for a sign he can tell you how he feels, also because he can't take his eyes off you. He has not responded to your email because he's afraid. Or maybe you really remind him of a woman who broke his heart in high school. He's not sure if you are the same person, he thinks you might have changed your name. He thinks you're playing with him, he thinks you are trying to catch him out and then report him for some reason. He's deeply paranoid and he's imbued your presense with all sorts of meaning that it doesn't actually have. Or maybe he thinks you stare at HIM. He's more than deeply paranoid, he has real issues. He has built up a whole wrong-town fantasy world where you have a key role. You cannot predict what he thinks of you at any given moment, it all depends on where you are in his internal narrative. So that's the basic spectrum I think he falls in, from damaged but manageable to deeply disturbed. I'm sure you would like to believe he's in line with the first explanation, but from what you've said I think if he was there this still would have progressed a little. Relationships were not meant to be THIS hard. I think the reality is more likely somewhere closer to the second and third examples, or maybe it's something else entirely. There are men out there for you who aren't this much hard work! I would seriously consider trying to forget about this guy if you can, and keeping yourself away from those events for a little while. If he's a good bloke and is genuinely interested in you - if he's worthy of you in any way - you have given him a clear signal to approach, if only to discuss. If he doesn't take that opportunity I think he's shown you he's not worth the mental effort to work him out, or the emotional effort. Easier said than done, I'm sure.

Well I'm not saying a poor self-image is a good thing, but him having one will help him understand where you might be coming from down the track, if you did get uncomfortable. My guy has no image problems and no jealousy, so it's hard to get him to see the world from my more insecure perspective. Sounds like you're sensible and compassionate and I assume he is too, given you picked him. So there'll be little things like this that bite at your comfort zones, but you can generally negotiate through them with some empathy and willingness to compromise & show trust. See how you go, you might enjoy the mags more than he does. I love my free subscription to whatever it is.

I have to say that if both parties fully understood what was in the magazine in question, and the hypothetical woman (not our real saint_saul) still had a serious problem with the free subscription to the magazine, then it is worth the guy really assessing if he (a) needs the magazine, and (b) needs the girl. Basically if the relatively minor magazine issue could not be easily resolved I would think this might smack of a value conflict that would require careful negotiation and might not be resolvable. No, I don't believe in controlling the other person, but it does come down to both parties being honest about what they really want and why, and then testing that against the bigger relationship picture. I do not subscribe to a previous poster's view about visual infidelity. Yes I hate my partner checking out other women but I would never stop him, and I would have no way of policing this anyway. As long as we both know and understand what appropriate behaviour is, that is, agreed appropriate behaviour like no ogling, no tongue hanging out, no comparing me to them, etc then who am I to say what/who he looks at? I wouldn't be with someone who didn't share my values, but I also can't unmake my guy from a normal man and turn him into something sexless. And I wouldn't want to!

Good for you. And maybe sometime in the future leave some skin mag full of buffed guys around and see what he thinks. Cosmo (at least here in Australia) is still full of half-naked women!

Why ever not? Oh well. Maybe the lesson here is to be happy with your own reaction and to trust it! Perhaps your brother and his people are terribly protective of you and think that these magazines reflect a greater threat than they actually do. I would expect an older brother to perhaps react this way for his little sis. What are you going to do now? I mean re your boyfriend.

I must have missed something in your posts saint_saul because I am getting a different impression from some of the other posters. I didn't really see a strong controlling thing here, and I also didn't see much re his bad reaction to you. Maybe he reacted badly because he thought you were judging him, maybe he's had a bad day. Maybe he thought you were trying to control him, which none of us really likes. Perhaps let it slide if the magazine itself isn't a big deal, see how you both feel about any argument had about the whole thing as a separate issue.

Well annie might well think you're missing out re the Lost, but she can tell you that herself. If porn etc doesn't really bother you, you may well find that Maxim etc doesn't either. Perhaps try and go back to your initial reaction. I personally hate my guy checking out naked/barely clothed ladies - I'll be okay with it one minute, then I've reached super annoyance levels a matter of miliseconds later. I cracked it with him in a bookstore yesterday because he lingered for a very long time on a picture in a book of a body painted model. I recovered quickly, but it just taps into something... But I guess I can't really police what he looks at; I do know that he's respectful and not lecherous, I just get insecure. If I was you I would not say anything, then I would have a look at these magazines. I have to say, that when I look at them in the magazine shops I always enjoy the apparent insight it provides into what men think, and tend to not worry as much as I thought i would about the airbrushed girlies.