caro33

I'm listening to bloody 'pinball wizard' in my head every time I see this thread in the list. Otherwise I'm listening to all my Metallica albums.

I am closing this thread because it is two years old.

Thread closed as is two years' old.

It looks like the argument has dried up, so will leave the above. However I ask posters to treat each other - and everyone's posts - with respect. Debate is fine, but further attacks on people's opinions will not be tolerated.

I have no idea how this thread has come to life, but please note that if the girl had had the baby it would be over two years old by now. Ancient thread.

I really implore you to stop criticising yourself and trying to rationalise around all this by dismissing your own feelings. Some people might be fine with what your boyfriend says, and might call you immature. I certainly wouldn't. I think the things he's said are way out of line and you have had others say that to you too. You have to be honest with yourself here, this is who he is. Now he might be great and lovely the rest of the time, but can you truly live with this? If we assume it continues like this (him saying the occasional thing about his sex life that upsets you) can you really cope with it? I don't mean "yes, if I make my mind changes somehow" but if he stays as he is and you stay as you are, is this sustainable for you? I think your guts are reacting understandably to something that on some level you know is out of kilter. Listen to your guts, I don't think they will let you down .

Absolutely. He's either insensitive to the max, or he's testing you. Either way, I don't think you are being paranoid, and I question whether he's someone whose word you should place much stock in.

12 kilos? Oh my god, have you been very sick? I hope you feel better soon, sounds rough.

Guys, kitty went to have this talk over two months ago. I was in touch with her after this and she was fine but still dealing with stuff. I wouldn't think it's helpful to keep on the topic of this particular thread. Maybe PM her if you want to see how she is, but I haven't seen her on ENA since the end of January and she's not been in touch with me separately since then either.

You may well even feel better about this by now, but I just wanted to say to try not to sweat it. I think it's fine and normal when you're engaged to have moments of fear of independence lost, but if you're marrying someone who is right for you you should be able to negotiate this. Even if you need to have some big discussion about this now, you may well find it's not that big a deal and you can work out something for the future. I had some concerns like you did but found they were groundless in reality. Being married has not been the complete loss of independence I was afraid it would be. Have some faith . There's no reason why you can keep going out once you're married, and in fact it's a useful safety valve anyway to have that kind of time apart. I agree with the others - maybe just be clearer about expectations up front and try and do your best to contact. He'll be okay.

Nothing that can help Orly, sorry! This sounds like a wicked case of mixed messages but there's not much I can recommend you do other than what you've done already. Well done by the way You can choose to believe her that her need for space has nothing to do with you, or you can choose to be suspicious. Given it's new and special I would advise you give her the benefit of the doubt and do what she asks, and not look too deeply into it. Perhaps she is dealing with big issues that she doesn't want to burden you with, and maybe she is genuinely concerned about scaring you away with her feelings or attitude. Give her a chance for as long as you can stand to. However, I would also advocate a degree of caution. Two weeks of quiet in a brand new relationship doesn't sound great. Try to give her support, but keep living your life. If you have a gut feel about how she's treating you, then be true to yourself. Be polite and be mature, but be true to yourself.

Yes, I think you're probably right scarew. I know that personally I never really pay that much attention to people's bodies at work. If I do notice what they look like and think I see a change I tend to just assume I never noticed they were chunky/thin/whatever in the first place.

Nice pictures scarew! Yes a big change huh! You're a beautiful pregnant woman by the way - well you're obviously beautiful anyway, but you also seem to be wearing the pregnancy well .

I used to be a smaller person but put on 5 kilos or so before falling pregnant. Not sure what I qualified as to start with now, probably a "curvy" small person. I'm 8 weeks now and have thickened in the waist and put on maybe 1 - 1.5 kilos. I used to have small waist even after my previous weight gain so I guess I'm noticing this more. I am also retaining a fair amount of fluid. I haven't told work yet but am wondering if it's starting to get obvious - my body shape has definitely changed, in my eyes at least. I guess my pale, permanently nauseated look and the lack of 5 bottles or so of Diet Coke on my desk might be a sign to my co-workers also!

Just interested in people's experience here, in particular for first babies. When did you first show and is this different from "popping out" (a term I've heard)?

I think you sound lovely Orly, and agree that those other people just don't sound worthy of you. Let them say what they want. What you are nurturing with this girl is special and fragile, but just like it can die from over-exposure (getting too much too soon, too public), it can wither on the vine if you don't help it along. I believe the best thing to do is exactly what you feel like doing - if you and she have a real connection the chances are high she knows how you feel and maybe even feels the same way. I agree with laboheme that you can talk around the edges of your "are you my girlfriend" question and get the same response. Saying you don't feel like dating other people could be great, but also be aware of what that might say to her - she might think you date a lot, or that you have dated others to this point while with her. Given this is your first relationship I wouldn't necessarily open up the chance to talk about passed up opportunities with others too much. My own advice is to be honest about the fact that this is new to you, and it's special. You're having a wonderful time with her and you hope that you guys can keep having fun like you have been. If you feel brave you could say you don't want to push her but you are starting to think of her as your girlfriend and you hope she doesn't mind. I know you've only kissed recently, but if you've been semi-boyfriend/girlfriend for 2.5 months it might not be too soon.

Sorry mate but my advice is to hang in there and keep cool. I think that further contact at this point might be seen as pushy. You have already made it clear you're keen, they might resent you asking again. Maybe give it another week and then call the boss? That's probably fair enough. These processes are mind numbing aren't they. My husband is going through the same thing right now - weeks and weeks for various terribly-excited-to-have-him people saying they'll check with one another re terms and conditions etc, but so far, nada.

Okay I'll share what I believe, for what it's worth. I guess I am referring more to the OP's posts as well. I wouldn't have a clue if men or women cheat more, but I do think there are aspects of our biology and culture that would affect the rates of cheating. However, these issues may well cancel each other out. I have tended toward believing the cliche that men can separate sex and love more easily than women, but I also am well acquainted with the various exceptions. However I am prone to thinking that anyone who can separate sex from love is more likely to have more sex with more people. Not that that means cheating exactly, but I think it gives more opportunity to those who want to cheat. Just as actual opportunity does. I think that if you have two populations of people who are prone to cheat or be promiscuous, and the only difference is that one population goes out and meets more people than the other, then the more social population is more likely to have opportunities to meet people and hook up. I'm not even differentiating between men and women here. But perhaps to make up for those men who can easily separate sex and love, there are the women I am familiar with who confuse the two so much they'll bonk guys with little judgement, because they want someone to love them and they think sex is the way to a man's heart. This can thereforeeee be evidenced as promiscuity relative to the more conservative or careful types, or it can be cheating, where the person is prone to cheating (the character issue). I keep hearing about how wild young women are now compared to when I grew up and it's a little scary. There seem to be pockets of girls gone wild which may have existed in the 80s/90s but not with the same..err...exposure. The exposure in turn makes this behaviour seem more "normal". Maybe some younger people (women?) are more promiscuous today than they were before, but I don't know how those wilder types reflect the general female population. Maybe there are just rootrats out there now for girls like there always were for boys; it's evened out, and there are still lots of other young men and women who keep themselves chaste in comparison. My own personal view is that a 20 year old who has done it with 20 or so people is not being very good to him or herself. If they keep up at that rate, how many people will they have been with by 40? What makes them do it? What about sexual and emotional health? I am not a fan of promiscuity for men or for women, but I think that for women it can often be more dangerous because most women I know align love and sex to some degree. The women I know who slept around have tended to be more damaged by the experience than their male counterparts.

Why do you say this?

You disagree that there are differences between the experiences and opportunities for men and women? That's all I'm saying. One example: I am pregnant and have to leave the workforce in a few months to have the baby. I will then be at home for a little while at least to look after it, and working full time after that will be an issue. That affects my career and my opportunities to spend time with the opposite sex, relative to my husband. When the day comes that my husband can be the one to get fat, feel sick all the time, have the baby and be at home, I will change my mind that women and men might just have some differences.

Sophie, I am with you 100%. I think you make excellent points. Isidore, generalisations can cause harm and be misused. Statistics can be misreported or based on erroneous assumptions, etc etc. That's all accepted. But the fact is that there are trends, there are patterns. Most of what we have access to in life re medicine, fashion, politics etc is based on "most of the people most of the time", or a significant nbr of people reacting a certain way. I can't honestly see the point in ignoring or refuting any statement ever made based on some sense of "the norm", or "in general" just because there are exceptions. Men and women ARE different in some basic ways, as sophie and others have stated. We have different hormonal drives, different life and work opportunities. We have different histories and there are different cultural expectations. It is not unreasonable to think that these things might just have a tiny effect on our expression of sexuality and our chances to express that sexuality, even if the effect is not-biologically based.

I was example 1 too, as I think I've mentioned to you before. Tough to hear huh. But I agree you might be better for now keeping some space between you and him. You can always go back to tell him how you feel/felt in a few months or years. Your heart will catch up!

I think what is missing for me blender is that the "he's just not into you" statement, or an alternative statement like the one I mentioned before of "he/she feels differently to me" is not a statement about the failings of either person. It is not saying that the person who wanted the relationship is a loser who made mistakes, and it's not stating that the person who didn't want the relationship is lacking in respect for themselves or their partner. Now maybe those issues do occur, as they do in many relationships, but they are additional baggage to the basic statement of fact of "we feel differently". In your own conception of how one must not blame oneself and why spend time wanting to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you, you have actually already accepted the "we feel differently" issue; you're at the next point of rationalising and managing ego, which certainly needs to be done. You couldn't possibly start that process unless you had already realised the relationship wasn't to be, for whatever reason, and the two parties feel differently. You can't jump that realisation. To my mind, that's all we're talking about here. "He's just not that into you" can be overused and it can be expressed brutally, but the concept is just one of different wants and feelings. It's the one realisation anyone dealing with the end of a relationship has to have, and to come to terms with in order to move on. It would seem that it's the people who have not accepted that who continue to pine for the other, to create opportunities for hopeless reconciliation attempts etc. blender, you said yourself in your first sentence of your first post to this thread "Just hear him clearly, he's said that for right now he does not 'feel the same way for you'". Isn't that sentiment all we're talking about here?

What are you asking though kate? Depends how open the whole thing looks, if there is a genuine chance of reconciliation. I've given some (lame) examples below... Example 1 Person says "I don't feel like being in a relationship anymore, good luck with it all but I'm gonna be single. But hey, call me if you want". I think in this situation the dumped SO is better off leaving it alone. No contact. If the other person changes their mind they will know how to get in contact. Example 2 Person says "Oh I'm confused, I do love you but I hate the way you do X and I can't take it". In this situation the dumped SO has an opportunity to get in contact and say "I'm so sorry, I swear I'll never do X again, can we give it a go please?". Then see what happens. Example 3 Person says "I'm confused, I need some time apart. I don't know what I want. But hey, call me anytime". This is ambiguous and the dumped SO can choose to contact occasionally or choose no contact. Depends on whether the pain of contact outweighs the chance at reconciliation or not. Depends on whether the dumper is using code for "no it's over but I can't bring myself to say it" or not.

I may be misunderstanding you here, but "no contact" is not supposed to improve the relationship. It's to help jilted people understand that it's over and to move on. If it's a defacto or married couple we are talking about who want to improve things between them and salvage something, then no contact is definitely not going to help things. That's when it's all about communication. This "no contact" thing is definitely dependent on the situation and the people involved. It is not a cure-all or some rule that fits all circumstances, like the way people sometimes refer to it here. It is just a way of managing behaviour and is a means by which someone who is heartbroken can start to control their environment and come to terms with the ending of a relationship.