RescueDiver

Since one of my last cautionary tales was pretty well received, I thought I'd share another story from my past. This time on online-dating. Back in the early days of cyber-dating a site some of you may have heard of was in its infancy. link removed was looking to build up its initial database of users and made an offer that I really couldn't refuse. Anyone joining up at that time would receive a FREE lifetime membership. Well, naturally I signed up. Because there were so few people on link removed at the time it was very difficult to find someone that you really clicked with. Few people had pictures with their profiles. Worse still the proportion of men to women was probably 80/20 at the time. Even with all of this against me I still managed to hit it off with a gal from Grand Rapids Michigan. At the time I had just graduated from college in Eau Claire so I was living there. A distance of nearly 500 miles separated us (almost 800 kilometers for the rest of the world). Jessica, was going to college for physical therapy and had recently gotten out of a relationship. I think she was probably about 18 or 19 at the time (I was 23). Anyway, over the next several weeks we shared many long e-mail conversations. Now bear in mind, this was almost 10 years ago. There was no voice-over-ip (so no skype or anything like that), no instant messenger, no video conferencing, etc... The closest thing we had to IM was a unix-based program called "Talk". Some of you might remember that. Unlike IM, with Talk you could see the person typing. So, if they were a slow typer it took agonzingly long to get a response... worse yet, if they made a mistake or a typo, you got to watch them backspace and correct it. I didn't even know what Jessica looked like in the early days of our cyber-relationship, but how easy it was for us to talk to each other was a good sign. Jessica on the other hand was able to see what I looked like right away as I had a picture posted with my profile. Anyway, we shared many of our deepest secrets and many emotional stories from our past. Eventually we even ended up having a netsex session. Not long after that Jessica sent me a few of her pictures. In spite of being slightly overweight (which she admitted up front), she turned out to be very attractive. Well, after that I pretty much started to feel the familiar sensation of falling in love. We both had begun expressing to each other how excited we were to meet and planned on meeting in Manitowoc, WI in a few weeks. As those weeks drug by our conversations became increasingly affectionate. Even though I knew I was falling for her too soon, I felt some comfort in that it seemed like she was falling for me just as fast. A few days before our appointed meeting Jessica asked if I minded her bringing a couple of friends along. In a way I did because I wanted to be able to just concentrate on her and not worry about having to entertain two other people. However, I did understand the risk she was taking going so far away to meet a complete stranger. Well, not a complete stranger, but you get the point. I told her that was fine as long as they paid their own way (I had already bought Jessica's ticket... which wasn't exactly cheap). She said that they would (it was her best friend and her best friend's boyfriend). Finally the day of our meeting arrived. Jessica would be driving up to Luddington Michigan, then coming accross Lake Michigan on the SS Badger, a ferry that crossed the lake daily. It didn't really save much time on the trip (if any) as the trip accross the lake would take about 3 hours. But, it did save her a large amount of driving. For me, I had a 4 and a half hour drive to Manitowoc to meet her. The drive was agonizing as it was two lane road and horrible traffic almost the entire way. Upon reaching Manitowoc I stopped into the local visitors center. I was already running behind (and hoped the ferry would arrive late) and I didn't want to get lost. I also wanted to stop at a florist and get some flowers and didn't have time to wander around the city looking for one (remember... this was before MapQuest, Yahoo Maps, or Google Local even existed). I told the woman working at the visitor's center why I was in Manitowoc and asked her if she knew of any good florists. She did and gave me directions to that and then to the pier where the SS Badger would be. I thanked her and she wished me luck and said she hoped I found what I was looking for. Immediately thinking of Jessica I replied "so do I." I stopped at the florist and bought a single red rose. Then thanks to the directions from the woman at the visitor's center I made it to the pier with relative ease. When I pulled into the parking lot for the SS Badger's pier I cursed... I had hoped to beat the ferry because I wanted to surprise Jessica with the rose. Unfortunately for me, the ferry had actually arrived EARLY! It didn't take too long for me to spot Jessica... she was standing there looking even more beautiful than in her pictures. So, I grabbed the rose, a jacket (it was VERY windy that day) and went to greet her. I introduced myself and gave her the rose. I had some corny line like "this bud's for you" all planned out but I was so nervous I forgot all about it. Jessica seemed very guarded, and didn't seem like she would be receptive to a hug so I let it go. We'd both envisioned leaping into each other's arms and sharing a long passionate kiss on meeting... I was a little dismayed that this didn't happen, but I figured she was probably just as nervous as I was. Jessica's friend Angie and her boyfriend Dre showed up soon afterward and I led them all to the used 8-year-old Jeep Cherokee I had purchased barely a month prior. Jessica and I had made reservations at a hotel for the lot of us weeks prior when we planned the trip but check-in wasn't until 1 PM (and it was probably about 11:30 when the ferry arrived). So we stopped at a hotel near the pier and borrowed a phone book. Pizza sounded great to all of us so we drove to a local pizza hut. There we could all become friends Jessica's friend Angie said. I noticed Jessica was being awfully quiet. I could sympathize with being shy since I'm that way myself... but even I warm up after a little bit. After all, it wasn't like Jessica and I were complete strangers. We knew more about each other than most people did. Angie said that Jessica was just that way, even around her friends. Over lunch everyone seemed to lighten up and we had some pretty good conversation going. Jessica's mood seemed to improve a little, but she barely ate anything. "Wow," I thought, "she's even more stressed out than I am." Jessica admitted to not feeling very well, which again was understandable. I hadn't been feeling very well myself earlier, but once I'd been able to relax a little I felt immensely better. By the time we finished up lunch it was after 1 PM so we would be able to check into our hotel rooms. We had all gotten up very early for the trip and by now all of us were very tired and in need of rest. At the hotel we brought our luggage up to our rooms then went to Angie and Dre's room to socialize a little more. Finally Angie leaned over and whispered something to Jessica. I couldn't hear what she said, but something told me it was time to go. So I got up and Jessica and I left for our own room. Once we got to our room Jessica immediately went over to the bed, laid down and sighed. I felt really bad for her. She was obviously exhausted and not feeling well at all. I went over and sat down beside her and asked if she would like a back rub. Jessica looked over at me and said "first we need to talk" in a very regretful tone. After planning the trip, Jessica and I spent many nights before we each went to bed talking about how wonderful it would be to finally be in each other's arms. We talked about all the sexy things we'd do to each other and so forth. Basically I figured Jessica was going to tell me that she wasn't ready to "do" anything yet which I didn't mind. I hadn't come to meet her for sex anyway... I had come to meet her because I wanted a relationship with her. Jessica said "I have something to tell you, and you're not going to like it." Jessica went on to tell me that the guy she had dated for two years prior to meeting me had shown up the previous weekend. They had a long heart-felt talk and decided to get back together. I felt like I had just been hit by a train. "Why... why didn't you tell me?" I asked her. Jessica said that she still very much had wanted to meet me and knew that if she told me what had happened, or if she suddenly changed her demeanor over e-mail, etc... (even after that last weekend, she had continued sending some very racy e-mails) that I would get wise and not want to meet her. Well, she was right of course. Her boyfriend of course wasn't exactly happy about her going through with the meeting, but trusted her. Well, basically in order to decide my next move I needed more information. Jessica really hadn't talked much about her ex- (which is why I had thought it ancient history). So, I asked her more about it. She said that before when they were dating there was a lot of pressure and stress due to their parents (curfews, etc... since she was under 18 at the time). Well, now that she was away at college, an adult, etc... they wanted to give it another try. Jessica said that they were both very much in love with each other, which I basically took as my cue that I now had no chance at being with her ever again. I told Jessica that I needed to go think about what I was going to do. Basically I wanted to go home, but that would leave the three of them stranded at the hotel. So, I took off for a few hours and went to a park to think (and let my emotions out as I was very upset). After a while I went back to the hotel. I decided that I'd try to be big about what had happened. Somehow in the back of my mind something told me that Jessica's relationship with this guy wouldn't last and if I ran out now, I certainly wouldn't get another shot. By the time I got back it was late enough for everyone to fall asleep so we all went to bed. That night I obviously didn't sleep well at all. I doubt Jessica slept much better. The next morning I caught Jessica's friend Angie alone and asked if I could have a word with her. She agreed and we went and found a quiet corner out in the hallway and sat and talked. Angie and I basically talked about what had happened, and what should happen from here. Angie said that Jessica really wanted to stay friends with me and felt really bad about what had happened. I explained to Angie that my feelings for Jessica really went far beyond friendship. She suggested that I tell Jessica exactly what my feelings were and go from there. Which I ended up doing. I told Jessica that I forgave her for what happened and that I would like to try to be friends with her. I told her that I didn't know if that was possible, but I would try. A short time later I brought Jessica, Angie, and Dre back to the pier so they could get back on the ferry and begin their journey home. I bade them all goodbye and began my own long lonely drive home. Over the next two months my contact with Jessica slowly began to die off. It took about the same amount of time for my heart to heal from the whole ordeal. Over that time I sat and wondered what I could have done differently and realized that there really wasn't anything. Sure, I could have tried to not fall in love quite so fast, but that was about it. As it turns out Jessica's relationship with her boyfriend "Mike" I think was his name, didn't last. But, by the time this came about I had long since moved on, and wasn't keen on reopening old wounds. How did I find out then? Well, four years later I stumbled accross her e-mail and wrote to her just for the heck of it. Much to my surprise she wrote back. We've talked over IM a few times since then. Anyway, for those of you that are involved in a cyber-relationship and haven't met... do your best to keep your hearts in check... at least until you meet. Hopefully you will have better luck than I did. Oh, for those of you that might be wondering... were there any signs that Jessica had gone back to her ex or that something might be wrong? Well, at the time I was so love-blinded I didn't really notice. But after this all went down I went back through my e-mails and noticed that the level of affection (lovey dovey, huggy kissy, stuff) dropped pretty abruptly right after the weekend where she and her ex- got back together. I didn't really notice at the time because I was working a lot of hours at the time and was really stressed out. I had also just begun my training as a firefighter so I had all of that on my mind as well. Apart from that, there was a marked difference in our phone conversations. She wasn't anywhere near as talkative, but that could be explained away at the time as pre-meeting jitters.

Wow, this sounds familiar... went through this with a girl myself. If I were you I would ask yourself if you really want to keep going through this. Believe me, it doesn't get any easier the more times you get back together and break up again. I was in a on-off-on-off-on-off relationship with a woman for three years and it sucked... It's a long read, but you might want to skim over it and save yourself a lot of trouble. Because this gal and I had been so emotionally close naturally we were each other's first refuge when trouble came. It's a slippery slope.

Well for starters, the baby is due in less than a month (November 10th). Hopefully not much earlier than that because if so I will be burning a lot of sick time which I am hoping to save for other emergencies. To answer your other question, the first time Marissa broke up with me it was really a very strange and confusing situation. When we split, there were no agreements on call/no-call, etc... I seem to remember letting her do most of the calling because at the time each time she called me was an affirmation that she still at least wanted to talk to me. It was really obvious that she still loved me and still cared for me. I think she called me the day after she broke up with me to make sure I was okay (I'm a firefighter, so having a hazardous job she was afraid I might be distracted by what was happening between us and something bad would happen). Then she told me she loved me and she'd talk to me again soon. That pretty much continued for the next 6 months. There would be varying degrees of love and affection in her voice mail messages or IMs or our phone conversations. There were many setbacks and several times when I thought I ought to give up. This back and forth thing was pretty much because Marissa was just very confused about what she wanted out of a relationship. Bear in mind that this John guy wasn't the most affectionate/loving/romantic guy, but they had a history, he was from a wealthy family would be making about 3x's what I made when he graduated, and he was good in bed. Marissa came from a somewhat underpriviledged family so the earning potential was kinda important to her because she didn't want her children to go without the way she had. Roughly a month and a half after the split we tried a week long no-contact agreement... which she immediately broke. We tried again a few days later and this time she held to it. The reason we did this is because she felt she couldn't evaluate John's ability to empathize with her if I handled the brunt of that. If she had a bad day or she was really upset or whatever... I was the first one she was calling, not John. Well, we did that and John did pretty well initially because our contact after that dropped off sharply. However, once the semester was over she would be moving out of where she was living. She was renting a bedroom from a woman that lived near campus and this woman's fiance' was to be moving in. So, Marissa ended up moving in with her grandfather for the summer and working at a window manufacturer. This put a pretty good distance in between her and John... actually put her geographically right in between us. As I'd already mentioned towards the close of my first post, John doesn't do so well with distances. That or he was just reverting to his old self... or maybe it was a combination of both. The next time we split there was some talk about it being "for good" this time. Basically I didn't feel that I would be able to be friends with her because my heart was so consumed with her that I wouldn't be able to move on if we were still talking. Well, look what happened last time and since there supposedly wouldn't be another chance for me... why torment myself. So basically we agreed never to talk to each other again. That was a pretty horrid night... probably one of the worst I can remember. Days later... (don't remember exactly how long) I broke down and called her. Basically all I said to her when I called (I was amazed she even answered) was to not hang up, just listen... then I told her that never talking to her again really wasn't what I wanted and blah blah blah. Well, she said that she didn't know if "talking again" was what she really wanted and that she'd have to think about it. I left it at that. Later... it was either that night, or a couple of days later... she called me back and we ended up talking for a few hours (just like old times). That pretty much ended that no contact thing. The only thing that time is I didn't know she was back with John again. The only thing she would tell me is that she was dating other people from school. The reason she didn't tell me is because she was afraid if I found out she was back with John that I'd never speak to her again. Basically I told her when we got back together the last time that she wasn't to see John ever again because I didn't want a repeat of what happened early on in our relationship. I didn't find any of this out until we got back together again in October and all of this came out. I was actually rather flattered that she didn't want to tell me about John. That told me that she hadn't actually meant "never again." The final time we broke up sadly was right after my 30th birthday party. Like the first time she broke up with me I knew it was coming down the pipe not that it made it any easier. That time also we didn't set any rules for no contact. However, Marissa was very... mean this time. There were more than a few times I told her between March and June (when we had our final get-together) that if she was going to talk to me that way that she ought not talk to me at all. A large part of it was oversensitivity on my part, but Marissa had also become very jaded and resentful. When John broke up with her I think it really affected her more than she wanted to let on. She became very resentful of men in general and since I was right there... I caught the brunt of it. That along with all the stress of graduating, senior level classes, trying to find a job... yeah, she was a serious * * * * *. Actually a lot of that started that previous December when her grandfather's health began to deteriorate. The other thing that was stressing her out is that for the most part our relationship during those months... from October to March was largely a secret. For some reason she didn't want her mom to know she was seeing me again. Whatever reason she had really didn't make sense since her mother really had nothing against me. I mean she might have rolled her eyes about us flip-flopping in and out of a relationship, but I think that would've been as much disapproval as she would've seen. I remember when her grandfather died she was upset with me because I didn't go to the funeral. Well, at the time, I was an outsider... remember that her family didn't know we were seeing each other again so to invite myself along would've been rather... rude. Plus I was never invited. All Marissa had to do was say "Would you come to my grandfather's funeral." and poof... I would've gone. But this is all water under the bridge... even if that had gone differently, I doubt it would have mattered much. Marissa was under far too much stress and she felt that the only way to deal with it was to get rid of the one thing that she had control over, and that was our relationship. Anyway, due to the distance involved (Marissa lived 360 miles away from me) there was no just going out for lunch. Any visit either way involved an overnight stay of some fashion. The only exception to that would've been if I were up visiting my family and she was visiting her grandparents (both lived near half-way in between Marissa and I) we could meet for lunch (which we did do a couple of times). But, as you can see from my story... pretty much any time we were left alone together we started to reconcile. Even when I went up there for that last time... both of us marveled at what a wonderful time we had and I pretty much figured out then too that the distance also had a lot to do with our problems. Marissa and I rarely fought when we were together. Even when we spent 2 weeks together straight. Most of the time we fought on the phone and it was because of silly misunderstandings that you wouldn't have in person. There had been talk at one point during that last meeting about her potentially coming to live with me in Madison... but we never got a chance to really expand on that conversation because of Curtis' arrival. Now, you may be wondering how this all differed from what happened with Jennifer? Well, in the most basic sense... it didn't. Jennifer and I were on a different footing though because we had been going out only a month (and it really hadn't developed into an exclusive relationship yet). Whereas Marissa and I had been dating for exclusively for three months. The biggest difference between what happened with Marissa (I'm referring primarily to the first time she broke it off) and what happened with Jennifer is the time-period involved and the level of contact. Jennifer and I didn't have any face-to-face contact whereas Marissa and I did. The reason Jennifer and I didn't meet up in person during the break is because we both knew what might happen if we did and we didn't want to go down that road (I had already been down it with Marissa). The key though I think was the time involved. The first two to three months after the first Marissa breakup were very very similar to the way it was with Jennifer. At least with our long distance interactions. The difference primarily was that with Jennifer our attraction and feelings for each other steadily grew over that time, with Marissa, it was an already established thing. We were already in love. Now, in the case with Marissa, once we got beyond that first three months more and more resentment began to build. Had Marissa only taken three months (like Jennifer did) to come back things might have gone a lot differently. By month three Marissa had started to realize and even said that she didn't see things working out between her and John... but continued to date him and that became progressively more frustrating for me. One of the other things I remember from that period was that John was supposed to be going on a big sailing trip with his father after he graduated. He would be gone (and virtually out of contact) from a few months, up to a year (I guess it depended on how far they got before they ran out of money or got bored). Well, the trip itself was up in the air pretty much all spring. I would occasionally get "progress reports" from Marissa as to how their boat was coming (it needed some repairs and refitting). I figured that if John went on that trip, Marissa would get back together with me for certain. Well the trip ended up not happening and I figured my chances were now shot. John had been saving up for years for this trip so he had probably tens of thousands of dollars set aside. Because the trip was now scuttled, he had enough money to buy her a very nice engagement ring, as well as pay for a pretty nice wedding. All he had to do was propose to Marissa and that would have ended it. That's would have given her the affirmation she sought and she would have gone along with it. I knew it, and Marissa knew it (and had said so to me more than once that spring). Sounds simple enough right? After all they had been dating for at least two years by that point. So basically that's what I mean when I say know when to let go. The problem is that it isn't always easy to know when that point has been reached. But once that point has been reached theres a good chance that any resurrected relationship could be poisoned. I think the trap I may have fallen into is that I reached that point, and without knowing it, getting Marissa back became more about "winning" than getting back the relationship I once had. I say that because once it finally happened... it wasn't the joyous occasion I had envisioned. It just sorta happened, without any real fanfare. The other problem was that Marissa did mourn losing her relationship with John for a while too (which is understandable). And yes, it may well be that he wasn't comfortable. He may be uncomfortable with the relationship, or he may have been uncomfortable that you were there... hard to say.

Well, neither individual is going to want to be seen as a runner up (would you?) If your new friend has dumped you, you may not have a choice as to who you're going to get. Just because it got patched up the last time doesn't mean it will this time. So, if I were you, I would repair any damage that was done there and honestly sit down and figure out what you want. You've had... 10 years with the one partner... if they're not working now, do you honestly believe things will ever change? Don't go back to a relationship, just for the relationship. Go back because you want to be with that person and not just "someone". If you are going to go back to the old partner understand that it's going to take some major effort to overhaul the relationship... are you prepared to invest that time and effort into fixing it?

You will definitely see a social reaction (not to mention reaction from your friends and family) about this. I am certainly not going to tell you not to date him because I have dated women that were up to 10 years younger than me. However it's certainly not something you should enter into lightly. You need to really think about the kids thing especially. How many do you want, when do you want to start having them, etc... and do the math. Also, as far as social/public reaction... I would say that more or less you are going to be dealing with a lot of staring if nothing else... confusion as to him being your father and not your husband. I think shestoosmart hit some really good points so I would think long and hard on those. This much of an age difference is going to put some major stress on the relationship to be sure. You need to be ready for that extra stress in addition to all the other stresses that come with a relationship.

I've had more than my share (I think) of long distance relationships. I can probably count on one hand the number of non-long-distance relationships I've had. Some people, when they are going through a crisis of whatever sort, seek to de-complicate (if that's a word) their lives. Often times it seems that a relationship can be the first thing that gets dumped. It doesn't seem to matter if the relationship is going well or not. If a relationship (especially a long-distance one) is going well, and you aren't able to see each other very much it can be very very painful. Some see that the absense of the relationship might be less painful and that's why they end it. Even people without depression issues can do this. My ex-girlfriend Marissa and I lived over 350 miles apart and dated on and off for three years (longest stretch was just over a year). The longest we were apart was a month and basically after that I decided that we wouldn't be apart that long again because it seemed to create problems where there really were none. Plus major reasons for our various break-ups over that time could be linked to times when she was under a tremendous amount of stress. My hope, is that this is just a med-issue or a temporary thing for your girl. My sense is that if she trusts you and needs you... she's going to contact you again. Unless she's the sort of person that pushes everyone away when their life gets rocky. Really all you can do is wait and see (and pray... it works, trust me ).

I feel really terrible for you eosesd. That is a terrible experience you went through there and I can tell you, had I been in your shoes I would have reacted similarly... getting sick and all. I doubt that he was intentionally trying to hurt you... more likely he didn't want it to seem like he was avoiding you. Or, he may have mistakenly thought that you were over him because you were out with some other guy. Either way it really doesn't matter. All I can say is do what you can to mourn losing him and move on. I'm not really sure he will come back to you. I'm not saying it can't happen, but you may miss out on some really wonderful opportunities waiting for her to remember why she dumped him (or for him to realize that she's not the catch he thought she was). I posted another thread with you in mind about one of my past relationships. It was a relationship where I dated a girl for three months and then she broke it off and went back to her ex-. Unfortunately (at the time) things didn't go the way they did with my story in this thread. Things went terribly terribly wrong and it's one reason I told you that my success with Jennifer truly was the exception and not the rule. I would hate to see something similar happen to you. I know one of the things that scared me the most was what if I start dating someone new and the old person comes back... what will I do? Well, I consider myself fortunate that I never really had to make that decision. With the exception of Jennifer and Marissa (the woman the new thread is about) my ex's have never come back. I like to think that I would give the new person a serious chance, but there is so much that factors into that... who broke up with who, why, how much I loved them, etc... With Marissa, there was a long period of time (months) that I worried that if I dated someone else and she came back, that I wouldn't be strong enough to refuse her. Obviously this guy had that same weakness with his ex and wasn't strong enough to resist it. Do what you can to heal, and don't waste your life waiting for someone... know when to say enough is enough.

I'm really not sure which forum section I should put this in because it fits into so many. Basically what I'm looking to do with this thread is to share a story from my past in the hopes that someone else can benefit by not making the same mistakes I made. Bear in mind that the events of this tale took place several years ago and I have since healed and moved on from a pretty horrible emotional experience. I hope it will also help those of you who are in the midst of a painful breakup remember that there is hope and that you will love again. I am proof of that. Enter Marissa... Marissa was a girl I met... eight years ago at a birthday/halloween party for a mutual friend (Amanda). Anyway, I had just gotten out of a relationship with a girl that Amanda had set me up with. Well, it's more like Amanda just gave this other girl (Jamie) a little push. Jamie ended up dumping me after a few weeks and going back to one of her ex's (this has happened a lot to me over the years). Anyway, Marissa is very nice, and very attractive, but 7 years younger than me (at the time I think she was only 17) and had a boyfriend (who was in his thirties believe it or not). Before any of you throw the around... yes, Marissa had/has some serious issues. The man she is married to now marks the first time she has dated anyone even close to her age range (not to mention younger). Throughout the party Marissa and I sit together on the couch (much to the chagrin of my ex-girlfriend Jamie, who was also at the party). Marissa and I end up chatting on the couch after much of the party is finished and she begins dozing off. Being the gentleman I was (er... am), I excused myself and slept in a guest bedroom. I mentioned to Amanda a few days later that I liked Marissa and wished I could get to know her better. That was pretty much the last I heard of it for a few weeks until Amanda unexpectedly showed up at my door and convinced me to go out to dinner with her. Actually at the time I was rather annoyed because I had just finished making dinner (okay so it was only Mac & Cheese... I was a poor college grad at the time and had just started my first post-college job). Well, my annoyance evaporated when I got to Amanda's car and saw Marissa in the back seat. Amanda had of course orchestrated this all to get Marissa and I to know each other better. After that Marissa and I exchanged several e-mails and a few phone calls. I eventually asked Marissa out after I had heard that she had broken up with her boyfriend. I of course gave her a few week reprieve and then asked her. She declined saying that she wasn't over her ex yet (though she had been the one to end it). I would have made further attempts but a month later I got hired by the Madison Fire Department and moved away. So I figured that, as they say, was that. About a year later I was up in Eau Claire (where I lived previously) visiting friends and I stopped to visit Amanda. Among other things I heard that Marissa had gone off to college in St. Cloud, Minnesota (strangely enough Eau Claire is right smack dab in between St. Cloud and Madison). There she'd met a new boyfriend (not-surprisingly also in his 30's). A few months later I get a phone call from Amanda saying that Marissa's in town and she wants to see me. Amanda and I know each other well enough to where we don't need to mince words. I asked her what the deal was (why would Marissa want to see me if she already has a boyfriend). Amanda thought that for sure Marissa was interested in me. Now bear in mind that Amanda and Marissa are *best* friends so she would know better than anyone if that were the case. Well, this intrigues me, but there are a few problems, first the midwest is getting a massive snowstorm at the time... making the 180 mile trip to Eau Claire rather more of an oddessy than it normally is. Second, Marissa (and her boyfriend) are visiting Amanda. This pretty much kills the idea for me because as much as I'd like to see Marissa again, it would be very awkward for me because of my interest in her. I politely decline the invitation citing my reasons and Amanda understands. That again is the last I hear of Marissa for quite a while. For the next 9 months or so I'm in and out of a few different relationships... then September 11th happens (which I don't think needs any other description right now). About a month later I get a phone call from who-else, but Marissa herself. We end up talking for over two hours just catching up and talking. Marissa tells me that the events of September 11th were what prompted her to call me. I guess the deaths of all those firefighters in New York had something to do with it (and I was the only firefighter she knew personally). We both said we'd talk to each other again since we'd both enjoyed the conversation so much. A few days later my paternal grandfather died. Though I never really knew him, out of respect for my father and his family I went to the Twin-Cities or just "The Cities" (Minneapolis-St. Paul, Minnesota for those that aren't familiar with the term) for the wake dinner. Since I had some vacation at that time anyway, I took some additional bereavement leave which gave me a few extra days tagged on to my vacation. I used that time to swing through and visit friends in Eau Claire on the way to the Twin-Cities. During one such visit I got a call from Marissa (which turned out to be at a really bad time since I was trying to help a friend with her out-of-control daughter). Anyway, Amanda called me a little later on that night. Basically on a recon mission for Marissa. I had made plans with Marissa recently to meet up for breakfast on my way back from St. Paul (Marissa would be staying with her mother in a small town between St. Paul and Eau Claire). Amanda said that Marissa had finally come around and had admitted that she was indeed interested in me and apparently had said that she felt she was in danger of "falling hard for me." Because I hadn't really been able to talk to Marissa that night she was afraid that I wasn't really interested in her. I asked Amanda to do her best to reassure Marissa that I was in fact interested in her (because I was). She said she would. The next couple of days came and went without event and I stopped to visit Marissa as planned. We met at a diner for breakfast along with her younger developmentally-disabled sister and mother (who thankfully offered to buy breakfast as I left my wallet in my car). As a quirky turn of fate would have it, this is all happening on the two year anniversary of the day she and I met. Marissa's mother excused herself as she and Marissa's sister were going to Eau Claire to go shopping and they would be back later on that evening. She paid for our breakfasts and departed. Marissa and I chatted for a little while as I finished my breakfast and then we went back to her mother's condo to chat. Well, next thing you know we're cuddled up on the couch and we have our first kiss. Only took two years, but better late than never. Marissa invites me to stay the night (which I accept after making sure it was alright with her mother... I wanted to make a good impression of course). The next morning we go for a walk, talk some more, and basically plan for me to come visit Marissa up in St. Cloud the next weekend. I leave for Madison happier than I had ever been up to that point. By the end of that next weekend Marissa and I have fallen head-over-heels in love for each other. Over the next three months I am in the happiest, most wonderful relationship I had ever been in. There are a few bumps (including a possibly pregnancy scare and a visit from her ex-boyfriend), but we seem able to make it through these rough times remarkably well. Then after a week-long visit during late January Marissa breaks up with me. While it isn't a complete surprise, I am still crushed. The reason I say I wasn't completely surprised is because Marissa had been acting increasingly "strange" in the couple weeks leading up to it. On the night before I went to visit her I basically caught Marissa in a lie where she was at another guy's house when she said she was at home. Bear in mind that because Marissa and I live so far away from each other (over 350 miles) we spend a lot of time talking on the phone. Because of that, I had become very in tune with certain nuances, background noises of her home, etc... For excample, there was a certain floorboard that *always* creaked when she walked to the bathroom. Anyway, not hearing any of these background noises for the first time basically led me to use a second phone to call her house line (we were talking on her cell phone) and hearing no ring... confirmed my suspicions. I called Amanda later on that night and asked what was up. Amanda referenced a small hiccup in our relationship back in November. Apparently what happened is John (Marissa's ex-boyfriend, the guy she had been seeing for the past year-and-a-half) showed up on her doorstep one night and invited her on a walk. Marissa had told me all of this right after it had happened, and I had asked her if the meeting had led to her sleeping with him. She gave me a very unconvincing "no". Understanding the danger at the time, I asked her if she wanted to continue with our relationship. I told her that I was very much in love with her and didn't want to lose her, but that if this wasn't what she wanted that it would be best to end it now before we became even more emotionally attached. She said she didn't want this to end because for her too it was the best relationship she had ever been in. Well, of course what Marissa hadn't said is that John had indeed seduced her into bed. After it had happened Marissa had immediately called Amanda in tears wondering what to do. Amanda asked her if she still loved me and she said she did. Amanda didn't think that telling me about it was as important as never letting that happen again, so she asked Marissa to promise never to do that again... that it would be better to break up with me first. Marissa agreed. After telling me the story of what had really happened back in November she said she figured that was what was happening now. I agreed that was indeed what was probably going on. As I have already said, Marissa ended up breaking up with me several days later. The aforementioned breakup really wasn't a clean one though and it led to a period in my life that I'm not terribly proud of. Anyway a few weeks after she breaks up with me, we end up meeting at her mother's house (just as friends). I am actually surprised that her mother doesn't object to this. What I end up finding out later is that her mother detests John (and not just because of the 14 year age difference between him and her daughter) and had grown quite fond of me during the time Marissa and I were dating. I imagine this is why (though she didn't really approve of the behavior) she never did much to discourage our meetings. Marissa ends up telling me at one point during that weekend that she doesn't think things will work between her and John. When I ask her why is she doing it then she replies "Because I need to know". Like so many other people, Marissa had fallen into the trap of not being able to escape the idea that she had put so much time and effort into a relationship with John that it seemed like a shame to waste it. Also, while things were really great with me, I was still an unknown for her and she at least knew how John was. For good or bad she knew what to expect. Over the next 7 months Marissa sees me on and off (which basically amounts to an emotional affair). There are a few cheating episodes which at the time I convince myself that I was justified because "he did it to me." That whole time she is back and forth with her affections towards me which leaves me an emotional wreck. When things were going well between her and John I would get ignored. When they weren't, Marissa would drown me in affection. Finally that July Marissa reached the realization that John simply hadn't changed, and wouldn't change. She broke up with him and we began dating again. I was happy, but at the same time, I was still scarred emotionally from the past several months. I had made the mistake of believing that things would go back to being just as wonderful as they once were. Things unfortunately were never the same again. Marissa and I fought more easily and more frequently now. Still I loved Marissa and wanted to eventually marry her, I just wanted the fighting to stop. A year into our rekindled relationship Marissa broke up with me again. More or less the reason was that in the early stages of our new relationship I wasn't the best boyfriend I could have been. It took me a while to get over the hurt I had suffered and instead of taking that time outside of a relationship with her like I should have, I let it pollute our rekindled relationship. By the time I had gotten past what had happened all those months ago it was too late, the damage had already been done. There were other factors too, most notably school and work stresses. She also said that her mother no longer approved of me because I had "hurt" her (Marissa). I would later find out that Marissa's mother still approved of me and didn't know where I would get the idea that she felt otherwise. Anyway, Marissa, as I would come to understand, was never able to effectively deal with the stress in her life. Anyway, a couple of weeks after the breakup Marissa seemed to have second thoughts and we saw each other a few times over the next month or two. Then Marissa once again said it was over, this time for good because she didn't think she loved me the way I loved her. Not anymore at least. Still Marissa and I stayed in touch (over phone, IM, and E-mail). I of course hoped and prayed that somehow we would get back together. What I would later find out is that she had once again gone back to John. Or had at least begun seeing him non-exclusively. I would occasionally hear Marissa talk about going on dates and so forth. Fortunately she spared me the details which I obviously didn't want to hear. Roughly a month later Marissa told me about having to attend a couple of Minnesota Orchestra Concerts for a class she was taking (by now she was a full-fledged college senior I offhandedly told her I'd love to go, but obviously I couldn't because of the "situation." Well, a few days later she asked me if I would like to go to a concert with her. I told her I'd love to. A few days after that, on the morning after a particluarly long friendly conversation Marissa said "I love you." Without thinking I replied that I loved her too. I wasn't sure if was a slip or what, and it left me very confused. Well, the orchestra concert came and well, the "just friends" concept went right out the window. Actually, I feared that Marissa would use the occasion for closure. What happened really couldn't be further from that. Marissa ended up kissing me which of course reawakened feelings in both of us. In a way, it was like a first date all over again. We spent part of it dancing to music from my car radio up on the roof of a parking garage under the lights from Minneapolis' many skyscrapers. When we parted, Marissa said that she loved me, but she needed time away... time to figure things out, maybe to date other people. I told her I understood. One of the problems with relationships Marissa has always had is that she jumps out of one and into another one without really taking time out for herself. Anyway, a few days later we talked about what happened and made another "date" to see another Orchestra concert. Marissa stipulated that she didn't want me to think that we were for sure getting back together, and asked me how I would feel about her seeing other people. I told her that I would be understandably jealous and hurt, but would understand. She explained that she might do that to find out if her rekindled feelings for me were genuine. A few days later, Marissa asked me if I would come visit her the next day (Halloween... again on the anniversary of our initial meeting... and the 2 year anniversary of or initial relationship). I told her I would love to. The timing of this wasn't lost on me and it reminded me of what a psychiatrist once said about the "subconscious" remembering certain days even if the conscious mind did not. Since nothing had been decided yet, I figured I would probably be spending a night or two in a hotel room since the orchestra concert wasn't for a few days. Well, that night after some initial uneasiness we ended up once again in each others arms. I ended up spending the next two weeks with Marissa (which was great considering that I had vacation time to burn up, but nothing to do). That touched off a rekindled relationship that lasted until March. Around the turn of the year Marissa was facing a very trying time. Her grandfather (who she was extremely close to) was dying of terminal cancer. She was facing graduation and needed to find a job pronto (she had always had money issues because she pretty much had to support herself all through college). Our relationship at the time wasn't perfect, but it was certainly better than it had been the last time we had gotten back together. We didn't really fight much, but had occasional minor spats. Anyway, all of that stress pretty much overloaded her ability to cope and she decided to act on one of the few things that she actually had control over and that was our relationship. So, she ended it. Over the time we were back together Marissa admitted that she had gone back to John once again after she had broke up with me the previous July. Still he hadn't changed. There was one difference this time though. John had broken up with her (instead of the other way around as it had been the past three or so times they had broken up and gotten back together). One Marissa's big sticking points with John was that he had never made any mention of wanting to marry her (whereas I had). John also didn't express his love (or that he loved her) very well. He never said "I love you" very much (certainly not often enough for her). I guess he had also duped her a couple of times into believing that he was "saving up" for an engagement ring (once was when she broke up with me the first time, the second was more recent). That money had either never existed, or he had used it for other more frivolous purchases. At any rate I had given Marissa a promise ring the night of the first orchestra concert. It was nice ring if nothing else, it wasn't engagement ring quality of course, but it wasn't cheap garbage either. So, Marissa had said that she knew that I at least was sincere in my desire to marry her. Over the next four months I struggled through my healing process. Just when I was pretty much over Marissa, she invited me to come visit her. This time though neither of us was naieve about what might happen. We ended up in each others arms once more. That weekend Marissa was flying out to Las Vegas for a big conference and I offered to drive her to the airport since it was on my way home. As we sat together in the airport Marissa said "I love you" and told me that once again she was having mixed feelings about me and was beginning to want to get back together again. She said that us getting back together (if I still wanted to) was a definite possibility, but it might not be right away. I smiled and told her I understood. She said the problem now, wasn't desire, but career. She was applying to work all over the country and wasn't sure where she might end up. She actually had applied for a job in Madison and if she got that job... well, us getting back together was more of a foregone conclusion. She didn't say that, but we both knew that would be the case. Basically what had happened with John is he ended up moving to the East Coast and didn't like the long distance aspect of the relationship and ended it. Marissa and I had pretty much dealt with distance from day one. So I figured that even if she got a job far away we could make it work. It would just be a matter of letting her get settled. Without directly saying it, she implied that once she'd gotten a year or so of experience under her belt that she would be able to move much closer. That was the last time I saw Marissa. We had planned see each other again in a couple of weeks after she returned from her conference and a couple of out of state job interviews. However, while she was attending a multi-day interview in Texas, she met an immigrant from the Ivory Coast. To make an already too-long story a little bit shorter, she fell in love with him. I didn't find out until she'd returned from that job interview. Marissa's demeanor had completely changed. She had suddenly gone from being very friendly and affectionate to being very cold and matter-of-fact. It was then that she told me about this newcomer. Fortunately this would be the last time my heart would be broken by her. In the months that followed there were a few times when Marissa seemed to want to be with me again, but both of us had had enough of the rollercoaster we had shared for the past three years. Eventually Marissa moved to New Jersey for a job and nine months later married Curtis (the guy she met in Texas). What we had both come to realize is that while she was going back and forth between John and I, each of us fulfilled something that the other apparently couldn't. Marissa's relationship with John was based primarily on a great sex life. However with John, Marissa never really felt the love and affection that I showed her. She told me more than once that "with me she never wondered if I loved her. She always knew. With John, she never knew for sure." Fortunately for both of us we have since found new relationships. Relationships that fulfill all of and not just some of our needs. Now, I'm simply sharing this story as a cautionary tale to anyone else who is in a similar situation. If you're in a relationship that's going back and forth... on and off... do your heart a favor and sit down and think about what you really need and want. Also bear in mind that relationships once broken, are more often than not, never the same again. I can't stress that point enough. There are exceptions, but a certain "magic" or "innocence" is lost once a relationship breaks and it is virtually impossible to regain it. It will be easier to fight, hurt each other, etc. That is not to say that there are never fights in healthy relationship or that you can't "fight" in a healthy way. Anyway, in closing, hopefully someone can benefit from this by learning from my mistakes and not making the same ones.

Relax, you did nothing wrong. Things will play out the way they will play out and there's really no way to predict that. You did the right thing telling him how you feel. The friends only thing would simply have continued to tear at you. If he chooses to not initiate contact anymore, then that will be his loss. For now, just try your best to let yourself heal.

Well, I guess my advice would be to keep the lines of communication open, don't pester her, but don't necessarily ignore her either. Also, I'd avoid trying to do anything on the order of "just friends" because you don't want her to have the advantage of having her other relationship and being able to enjoy your company too. There are a couple of possibilities... either she and this other guy were just having a really bad fight and you were a nice change of pace for her (I know it hurts to think that but it's a possibility), or she is simply confused and has run back to that which she understands. If the two of you have a genuine connection... chances are she will begin to miss your company. But, it's hard to say whether or not that is the case. All you can do for now is wait and try to heal. Give her some time and see what happens. In the mean time, try to get out and have fun, meet some new people, etc... (the usual breakup advice). Talking to her friend about what happened might be a tempting way to find out what really happened, but you have to be VERY careful about that because she may resent you nosing around like that. To reference another failed relationship from my past I dated a girl named Jamie many years ago (about 7 now). Anyway, we went out for about two weeks and then she dumped me and went back to her ex. Her friend (Amanda) and I were acquainted and actually she was the one that gave us the nudge to start dating. Anyway, I asked Amanda what had happened, if I had done anything wrong and she said that I hadn't, just that Jamie felt more comfortable just being friends with me. It was that simple. It didn't make me feel any better, but at least I knew what the truth was. I don't even remember what reason Jamie gave me, but I think it was another one of those "you're too good for me" let downs. A few weeks later at Amanda's birthday party Amanda introduced me to another one of her friends, a young lady by the name of Marissa. That's quite another story though (a long bittersweet one at that). But two years after we met (almost to the day) Marissa and I ended up dating. So once again, try not to lose all hope, someone even better might be just around the corner. Hang in there and see what happens. By the way, I was your age when the story I just told you (about Jamie) happened.

Well do what you can, it definitely won't be easy. If you want to post that is fine, it might help others that are in similar situations. Or private messages are fine too if you need to give details that you'd rather not share publicly.

Yeah, I feel for you Eosesd... What should you be doing? Well, that's tough because as I mentioned before, what happened to me certainly was an exception to the rule. Most people out there are going to say "grieve the relationship and move on". Which really is good advice. Intense relationships are very attractive, but often it seems that they simply do not last. Now, will their relationship last? Probably not, based on what you said about her being so similar to his ex-wife. However, bear in mind that how long it takes before it falls apart again is completely unpredictable. I don't believe for a minute that his underlying reason is that he doesn't want to be the reason you left your husband, and personally being that you were separated for so long, I don't see how he could even legitamately say that. When you have a relationship like the one he had and you get tossed out of it... you want it back. Just like you want the relationship you had with him back. He may have thought he was indeed over her when you asked him if he'd go back to her. But it's another thing entirely when that carrot is dangled right out in front of your face. I myself have been caught by that too. Gone back to people I thought I'd never go back to because they hurt me so bad. You are wrong about knowing you shouldn't want him back. Actually you have every reason to want him back. You know (and you are probably right) that you are better for him than she is, but he is the one that needs to come to that realization and there is really very little you can do to convince him of that. What I've found is that a relationship... once it's left, is never the same when you go back to it. That can be true for his relationship with her, as well as your relationship with him if things were to go that way. So, having said that, the first thing you need to do is sit down and do some very serious soul-searching. You need to know that you can put this aside if the two of you get back together, otherwise it will completely poison any rekindled relationship. Secondly, keep the lines of communication open. Don't pester him, don't burn any bridges, don't go out of your way to avoid his calls or try to make him jealous because there's no guarantee that it'll work. Next, just do what you can to mourn the relationship and move on. The process will be much slower for you if you nurse hopes of getting him back. So just be prepared for a much longer haul. With Jennifer, there were signs that things were not all hunky dory with their relationship after getting back together. There were setbacks, and there were victories. The other thing to keep in mind, is you have to know when to throw in the towel. If he is one of those guys that's doomed to keep repeating his mistakes or unconsciously needs the controlling, nasty, self-centered sorts of women... there won't be anything you can do but find someone else and it'll be hard to know that for sure because he can still complain about it and need/want it at the same time. Finally with Jennifer and I, even though we both said we'd like to still be friends, talk, and eventually maybe do things together just as friends... I think we both knew that would never work. Jennifer knew that if she saw me again, she might do something she would regret (i.e. cheat). It was also evident that the more we talked, the more she wanted to talk to me and the more she missed me. So, I guess, be careful about doing things "just as friends" because that is going to torment you. Yes, it's wonderful to be in his presense, but it's going to give you a false sense of hope and it will get frustrating after a while. The other thing, is that it may be giving him his cake and letting him eat it too. If he is allowed the convenience of being able to see you when *he* wants... he'll never grow to miss you. So I would start with that and it will be hard... make no mistake. But just nix the friendly outings for now and see what happens.

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard that line. Okay, first off I'm a little confused as to whether she was still dating her boyfriend or not. At first you said she broke up with him for you, and then said they were separated... which is it? The whole "you're too nice a guy" thing gets really really confusing (and extremely annoying). Now, while I've never claimed to 100% understand women I have experienced that let down many many many times. The reasons a woman will say that can vary and it may be for a number of reasons. One is that you are a nice person and she just doesn't want to hurt you. Something about the relationship either just wasn't right (even though there may have been a lot right), something she isn't able to articulate (which sometimes happens). Also, sometimes people will go to what's familiar. Even if they have a lot of problems in a relationship sometimes that is more comforting because it's something they understand (because they've been through it). Whereas with the new person, no matter how nice and wonderful it is, there is always that unknown. She has likely been through some rough times with this other guy and she knows how he reacts when things aren't all peachy and wonderful. Unfortunately with you, she doesn't know and often the fear of the unknown is just overpowering for some people. They'd rather be in a crappy relationship they understand, than in a wonderful relationship that's unpredictable. Another reason is that some women do get scared when they are treated the way they all say they want to be treated. The possibility that the treatment won't last, that it's a sham, that they can't live up to (or return) that level of treatment are all possible explanations for that fear. How does any of this help you? Well, it doesn't really. I think the best thing to do is do what you can to move on. I have fallen pretty hard and pretty fast for some women and it really sucks when it looks like things are about to take off and then suddenly everything crashes. Let me share a story about a gal I met before I met my current wife. I met a wonderful lady on link removed last summer. Her name was Melissa. Anyway, Melissa lived, actually quite a ways away from me... the Green Bay area if I remember right (being that I lived in Madison that's a good 2+ hours away). I don't know what it is with me and long-distance relationships but that's always the way it seems to go with me. So Melissa and I bat a few e-mails back and forth and then start talking on Instant Messenger one night. A conversation that lasted five whole hours (well into the wee hours of the morning). Anyway, she said she would be in Madison on business and we made plans to have dinner. She had a business engagement after dinner (she was a Passion party consultant) and said that after that we might be able to meet up if she wasn't too tired. We met up, and she is just absolutely gorgeous (a ten), we had shared pictures but in person... wow. Anyway, we had a great time at dinner even though I was rather nervous. Afterward I asked her if I had passed the "drive-by" test (which we had joked about over IM) and she said that I had. I then asked if she'd like to go out again and she said that was a definite possibility which we could plan later. Anyway, she called me after the party and told me that she was going to stay with a friend in Milwaukee and that she'd already decided this prior to meeting me so I shouldn't take it as that I had done anything wrong. Basically if she was to stay in madison she'd have to stay with me and she wasn't sure that was the start she wanted. (Been in those situations before and they always seem to get messy). Basically Melissa seemed to be as much into me as I was into her. I'd say that she and my wife are actually a lot alike. Into the same things, able to finish each other's sentences (yes even this early), etc... Melissa told me more than once that she felt very comfortable around me and felt like she'd known me for years when we talked (on the phone and on IM). We often talked on the phone late into the night and we more than once talked about wanting me to see her apartment. Well, to make a long story short, we went out on another date (breakfast this time). She had been in Madison for a wedding reception the previous night. Well breakfast went well so on the way home I asked her if she'd like to go out again and she seemed reluctant... saying that she'd only been out of her last relationship three months. I was like... Well, we have a lot in common, do you see this going anywhere (meaning her and I of course)? Melissa said she didn't really know. She said she was still "researching" meaning she had only gone out with me from link removed and really had nothing to compare me to. Not that I'd done a bad job or anything or that I was a bad guy. So we hugged and said our goodbyes and said I'd talk to her later. So, a week goes by without her returning any phone calls, IMs, E-mails, etc... she'd never once mentioned that she didn't want to talk any more so there I am thinking I really screwed up. So, a week or so later I finally get an E-mail from Melissa with an explanation. Basically she said thatshe really wasn’t ready to go any further towards a relationship with me. She also said she felt crowded and needed a break (that it was nothing personal and just needed a break and some space to figure things out). She reiterated what she’d told me over messenger about being in a “research” phase (basically just seeing what’s out there) and that she really didn’t have the capacity for anything more right now. She thanked me for “everything” and said I had been really great for her and that she’d needed it. She said she was sure we would chat again soon, but just to give her space. Which I did. I never did end up hearing from Melissa again. I was crushed, and still wonder what if, but I just chalk it up to that she must not have been just right for me. Even though Melissa and I never really made it into a relationship I was falling for her and I was very very disappointed that I never got the chance to make more out of it. I guess what I'm saying, is do your best to move on and not dwell on this gal. You never know what might be right around the corner. I met my current wife barely a month after this setback so hang in there.

I have a few other questions before I can really launch into too much of anything. So you knew this guy as a friend before you started dating... how long did you know him prior to dating, how well did you know him, etc... and how long went by between him breaking up with this other gal and him going out with you? It might be irrelevant, but I like having a feel for the timing of things.

Well Eosesd first I'd like to say I am very sorry to hear that you are going through a similar situation. And before any further let me just mention that what happened with me is certainly the exception and not the rule. That being said Jennifer and I are not only still together, we are married and have a little one on the way (due in less than a month). Remember how you always hear that birth control isn't 100%? Well, ding! Our child is living proof. Anyway, we're not sweating it since we've been over the issue and we both feel that there's a plan at work and we're not going to sit here and question that plan. So, we ended up finding out back in March (just before a wonderful and romantic trip to a couples only resort in Punta Cana, Dominican Republic). It didn't really change anything, it just moved the time-table up a year or so. Jennifer and I are both 32 so it's not like we're in high school or college and we both have successful careers. An aside to that is that I recently passed all the qualification tests to be promoted from Firefighter to Apparatus Engineer (driver). In June we flew off to Newport News, VA and got married with her father and step mother and my best friend and his wife in attendance (my parents couldn't make the trip as they couldn't afford it and my dad just started a new job and couldn't really take vacation so soon). We actually had planned on going somewhere like Bora Bora but since we'd just gone to the Dominican, we figured we'd just keep it simple. Other than that things have been going really well (relationship and pregnancy)-wise. Yes, there are times when I kinda wonder about what I did, if I really did rush into something when maybe I shouldn't have... but then I step back and remember how wonderful Jennifer is and how much she really embodies pretty much everything I was ever looking for. So I really have no complaints. Yes, there are misunderstandings and arguments but we never really stay mad at each other for long. As for your situation, well, I don't want to give you false hope since no two situations are 100% alike. But if you'd like to elaborate on your circumstances, I'd be happy to share any advice I had.

I have a huge update for everyone still following this thread. First I want to thank everyone for their words of support and prayers. It has helped immensely. About two weeks ago Jennifer basically made it known that she did intend on leaving Brad. She had basically resolved during a conversation with her step-mom that while Brad hadn't done anything major wrong... she simply wasn't happy. Well, even though Jennifer had pretty much seen her relationship with Brad as a dying one, she hesitated to break up with him since they work at the same company and she feared harassment and retribution from him. There was some hope that he might be leaving the company for a job elsewhere so she was kinda holding out for that. Well, not too long after that I guess they got into some kind of argument at work and she basically told him that she wasn't happy and was breaking up with him. It wasn't long after that too that she called me up, told me what happened and wanted to come see me. So, last Friday she did. She ended up staying until Sunday morning and saw me off to work and then drove home. The reunion was very overwhelming for both of us. In spite of the distance we both have grown very close to each other in spite of only having contact via telephone/im/webcam. We are now officially "boyfriend and girlfriend" and are very happy and very much in love with each other.

Yes you may not want her back, but you still probably have feelings for the relationship itself. Sometimes after enough time has passed it's therapudic to talk to an ex to just put everthing to rest... but I don't think you're to that point yet. If you don't want her back... that's good, just keep maintaining the NC and keep working towards healing. And yes, I have felt that way too because when you lose a girlfriend/boyfriend... the thing people often forget is that you're losing a very close friend too and that is hard in and of itself. So yeah, you are going to miss her.

Your perspective is appreciated Setter5. And actually, if this had been a committed relationship... I *probably* wouldn't be handling this the same way I am. The reason being, is that when Brad came back around Jennifer and I really hadn't had the opportunity to get to know one another very well. Each of us had the suspicion that something more was possible... but like she told me in the early days after she called off our 6th and 7th meetings... she didn't really know where I stood as far as her religion (she's Jewish, I'm non-denominational Christian), the future of children, and distance. Plus, she really hadn't had a taste of my romantic nature (because we really just weren't that far yet). So she basically had to choose between the 'enemy' she knows, versus, the 'enemy' she doesn't know. I think probably any one of us would've made the same choice. At least with Brad she knows his idiosyncracies and what to expect. In spite of all the stuff he's probably done to her, they did have a fun and romantic relationship in the beginning. Now, obviously I've only really heard about his screw-ups. I have no doubt he's done sweet things for her, and has his good sides. So, basically she had to look at it that yeah, I'm a nice guy... but she already had 7 months invested in Brad and the major sticking point (the drugs) was dissolved. Now, since that time, she has of course found out that I have no issues with her being Jewish (nor should my family), I've already told her I am fine with her bringing up our children Jewish as well as keeping a Kosher home. Also, the distance issue was settled in that I wasn't expecting her to move to where I live since I only work 2 or 3 days a week (24 hour shifts). Plus she has also gotten a major dose of my romanticism. So that does make things hard on her... well, hard on us both because we both see that we would be very happy together. In fact, we are still growing closer and closer. Thursday night we pretty much spent the entire evening "together" (via telephone and webcam) never running out of things to talk about. I think we talked for... 7 1/2 hours or something like that? Jennifer has said several times, that when she looks at everything... I make the most sense as far as the one she should be with. We're both at the same points in our lives, we both want the same things, we're compatible, we are both very attracted to each other, there's chemistry, we resolve conflicts in ways that we both look for and desire... the list literally goes on and on. In fact I dare say that she really wants to be with me. We're both at point "A" right now and we can see point "C" which is us picking up where we left off. We both want to get there, but we don't know how... point "B" is the mystery. Okay, now I know someone is going to pipe up and say "well, duh, all she has to do is dump Brad!" Well, okay, yeah... but you have to remember... she has feelings for him, and for their relationship. I'm sure they have fun together and she enjoys being with him or this would be a no-brainer. The thing is, that she also feels very protective of him and probably doesn't want to abandon him. She hasn't said this outright, but I kinda get that impression as far as conversations we've had. I know she has a very real fear of being abandoned herself... but I'm fairly certain she isn't too worried about that with me. So, basically it's how do we get from point A to C. If anyone has any magical ideas I'd be happy to pass them along. I don't know if there's a scenario that will allow that to happen or not. I think I've already mentioned that Jennifer has said that if she had half the fortitude she had 5 years ago (prior to her fiance' dying on her) we would be together. Which I imagine means that she wouldn't be afraid to dump Brad. So, basically all I can do is wait and be supportive and hope that either Brad dumps her for some obscure reason (which I can't imagine he will... at least not for a long time), or that her feelings for me can grow to the point to where they supercede her feelings for Brad. Or at least overcome whatever feelings or fears are holding her back. Actually Jennifer just called me a few minutes ago to say "hello" and that she missed me a lot. She was out buying some groceries because apparently Brad got food poisoning at the company Christmas party they went to together last night. She said pretty much the whole evening she was wondering why she wasn't there with me instead. Running out now would be downright foolish. I've pretty much jumped out of the airplane already, so all I can do now is hope my chute opens. If it doesn't... I'm in for a painful landing. Jennifer and I have both been doing a lot of thinking and talking about what our lives would be like together. We really haven't come up with any major hangups (but then who does). The biggest thing is that we both resolve problems the same way (and wished our past partners had)... that way at least when we do get into an argument, there's less likelihood that it'll turn into a relationship damaging fight. I really appreciate your prayers Msnak... more than you probably know. Actually Jennifer and I have been both praying for the same thing... To be shown the path that will bring us together. So the more spiritual help we can get on this, the better for both of us I know. There's nothing I can really do myself to help the situation... so prayers are very helpful, so thank you.

Actually, she does know how amazing and rare I am. She tells me so quite frequently actually. This is just as hard on her as it is on me. On my side, I have the frustration of knowing that we would be great for each other... know that I can give her everything she has missed out on in the past, but not really understanding what is holding her back or if it is something that can be overcome. On her side, she knows that I am a great and wonderful guy and she has said that I could "give her a life that she has never known before, one that she thinks others would envy." That is a direct quote from something she told me a couple of weeks ago. But, she is also held to the other guy by her feelings. She admits that if we had made it to this point before Brad had started his stuff... that we would still be together. Unfortunately as I think I may have mentioned there were a few times where we turned left when we should have turned right (my not going to her party was probably the biggest one). So, she is in just as much pain as I am. She also says, that if she had half the strength she had prior to the death of her first fiance', that we wouldn't be having the conversations we are... we would be together. Yes, I am going forth with both eyes open, and a lot of times that is like standing in front of a firing squad without a blindfold. Some would say that being open-hearted about this too is dangerous... that Jennifer could take advantage of me. I don't think so. In fact, I know she wouldn't Actuall, when I said this could end "tomorrow"... it almost did. Last night Brad, showed up earlier than expected at her house for dinner. Well, we were just chatting about her work or something, nothing deep, or emotional or anything like that. Well, I heard later that she basically ended up feeling like she had been caught cheating and some would argue that in a sense she is. We had a long talk before bed last night (at the inception of which I honestly thought it was going to be our last). However, we are still talking, but if those feelings continue... this is likely to unravel pretty fast. Those of you who are spiritual or religious... we both would really appreciate your prayers. While I obviously don't desire Brad and harm... I believe that he really isn't right for her and she just needs the strength to make the right choice and not settle. Even she knows this... but she feels she doesn't have that strength and so here we are... stuck. I will keep everyone posted as best I can and thanks again for the words of support.

Speed dating was different... I'm glad I did it, but I'm not sure I'd do it again. I guess I'd say at least try it. Part of the problem when I went obviously is that I still had too much interest in Jennifer for anyone to really spark my interest. Well, I shouldn't say that, but the bar was set pretty high. I think it would be really great if Jennifer and I got together finally too. The more we talk the more we find that we have similar outlooks on life, want the same thing as far as family, children, etc... we find more things in common, and I guess find out that there seems to be no end to our compatibility. We already know we have chemistry. Obviously none of that is enough yet to overcome her feelings for her ex and that's somewhat understandable. I think we've all been in relationships where we knew that the other person really wasn't very good for us... but we wouldn't leave... or didn't leave as soon as we should have. That's why I really can't fault her for what happened. I mean sure, back when this all broke... we both had an inkling of what could be... but neither of us really knew how deep those feelings and compatibility really went. Otherwise things might have gone differently. We both know, that there is no future as "just friends" for us and that is obviously why we can't see each other until we can be together. So who knows... this could end tomorrow or it could end months from now. Both she and I are taking this one day at a time pretty much.

I know what you're going through jinxz and it sucks. It is really hard to fight off the negative feelings that eventually come up in the situation you're in. As much as you want to be with the person, as much as you love them, miss them and want to be with them again... eventually the frustration of not being able to be with them is going to catch up with you. The point is... that when you begin to get to the point where you are becoming very angry, frustrated, etc... that is the time to call it quits. Giving her the choice is fine... but understand that once you hit that point of being angry you have begun to build resentment inside of yourself. That resentment will poison any future relationship you have with her. I was in a similar situation with my last girlfriend who left me for her ex-boyfriend after we'd dated for 3 months. I hung out for six months waiting for her to see the light. As time wore on I became increasingly frustrated, angry, depressed. Also, it almost became more about getting her back... not about whether I thought that she was really the right person or not. When we finally did get back together the reunion was far from the happy wonderous meeting I had envisioned for much of that six months. My feelings had simply become too poisoned by what I had gone through. That built up resentment basically killed that relationship from the start. By the time I had put to rest those feelings, the damage had already been done. Marissa (the gal in question) had basically fallen out of love with me because I wasn't the same loving caring person I was when we had first gone out. We fought easily and often over the smallest stupidest stuff. She ended up breaking up with me a year after we got back together. We got back together and broke up two more times over the next year until she finally met and eventually married her curent husband 9 months after they met. What I'm trying to say is that it's not going to be possible for you to be friends with her because of this. I'd say it's fine to wait some length of time after a breakup in hopes of reconciliation (if there is that possibility) but you have to know when to call it off. That time is basically what you have reached. It's different for everyone, and every situation. But take it from someone who's been there. Once you reach the point where you're at now... even if you get back together with her it will never be the same again. The bottom line is that you really don't owe her your friendship and if it is tormenting you to keep that friendship alive... you need to break it off.

A very valid point Mjane and you're probably right. I don't think I'm the sort that goes on the rescue missions you're talking about. Thinking back... there have been a couple of relationships that might be construed like that. But it's not something I could say I look for (consciously or unconsciously). I think I can also say that Jennifer is not a drama queen... I've been with them before so I'm pretty good at seeing those. Not that would make me necessarily avoid them, but I can usually see them for what they are. I think you are right in that she may like to "rescue" guys. That one I can see myself and obviously since I don't need to be rescued... well... other than from single life... maybe that's part of the problem. I don't know that I've ever met anyone that was devoid of "issues". Even my female friends that I've had for 10+ years still have their issues. They deal with one finally and a new one crops up. So it becomes more of a search not for someone that doesn't have any issues... but one where they have issues you think you can deal with. You know, it would be nice to see if people actually dealt with stuff before they got into new relationships, but I just don't see it. Most of the time the most I see people out of a relationship before their next one starts is 2 to 3 months. Now, having said that, Jennifer was out of a relationship for about 6 months between when she and Brad broke up and when she and I started dating. On paper that looked to me like it was long enough. I don't think there is anything magical about the "one year" rule that I hear people advocate. It's whatever is right for that person. I know you know that, so I'm not debating that with you. If we hook up again, yes, Brad could potentially make a lot of trouble for me and that is something that I am aware of and I don't take lightly. Now, as far as I know all the other guys (including her ex-husband) have been "banished" and are non-issues now. However, even if Brad doesn't cause problems Jennifer is still haunted by the loss of her first fiance' which happened almost 5 years ago. That, is something I saw from the first time I met her. I could tell she hasn't let go of him yet. Your advice is not lost on me Mjane... so thank you. The combination of chemistry and compatibility being the rare combination they are... make it virtually impoosible for me to turn my back on them. Msnak, Yeah the "too nice" thing has been a recurring issue with me and one of my current friends (an ex-girlfriend) said that it freaks women out because I look too good to be true. Actually Jennifer and I had a short discussion about that too and she admitted that it was kinda freaky. The match thing won't happen for a while because if I go on there right now I know it's not going to be for the right reasons. I just need to see where this goes before I'll be ready to give anyone else a fair shake because if she's sitting there in the back of my mind... it's just going to be a distraction. Well firefighting is a dangerous job and people do get hurt and killed, but it's usually not as frequent as it sounds. Even so Jen's problem primairly is that she's had a lot of people close to her die tragically (so I'm not talking about grandparents dying of old age). So, when we first looked at a dating she said "no" right away because obviously the thought of potentially losing me popped into her head. Now, once we started chatting and talking on the phone when I was at the station and stuff and she learned more about the job and how it really wasn't as "lethal" as all the hollywood hype (she'd seen Ladder 49 recently so that didn't help my case any)... she started to be more okay with it. I really can't say that I feel I'm an undesireable "catch" so to speak... I think I mentioned further up that I recently tried speed dating. Personally I'm not really sold on the speed dating thing because it seems a little... superficial. You really don't get enough time to get a feel for the person's personality so it becomes more of a "look at the goods and read off the resume" kinda thing and that's the extent of it. Under just those circumstances 6 out of the 9 women that were there picked me as someone they wanted to go on date with. Unfortunately the only woman that I chose as interesting was one of the three that gave me the thumbs down. So therein lies the problem I've been dealing with for the past 13+ years. Finding someone where there's both chemistry and compatibility and they feel the same way. So, having only found that... maybe one other time (and that time it wasn't to this extent) makes it hard to walk away from as I already said.

Thanks for the words of support Stolenshadow. To be honest, I never thought I would be letting myself into this situation again especially what happened with my last girlfriend and having had this happen a couple of other times before. All I can say is that this one is going a lot differently then any of those went so I guess I'm hoping it turns out differently. I know there are other options and it's not like I am set in this course forever. It's kind of a day-by-day thing. Like I said, if she starts to pull back... or if we go a long time and it doesn't seem like anything is happening it's going to wear down my patience. You are right I am putting everthing into this. It's that aspect of my personality that makes me a great Firefighter/EMT but, also tends to get me walked on in the relationship world. Because I don't give up even in the face of insurmountable odds. Whether the wait, time, effort, tears, etc... will be worth it in the end... who knows. I'm sure as soon as Jennifer knows one way or another she's going to tell me. I know she doesn't want to see me suffer any more than necessary, and this is also very hard on her. She does want to be with me... that is clear. What's not clear is what is holding her back.

All very valid responses, and I'm not going to debate anyone as to whether what I'm doing is a "smart" thing to do because I've already accepted the fact that it's not and I'm accepting that I may very well get hurt really bad. However, that is an outcome I can live with. Been through it before and survived it. On the other hand I don't think I would be able to live with shutting her out and then finding out later that it could've worked out. Well, the thing is that she does want more than support. There is a large part of her that wants to explore what she and I could be. Now, yes, the flip side of that is that obviously enough of her still wants to be with the other guy. Which is why she's still with him. She really hasn't built me up and let me fall yet... well, since this whole business got icky. Since we've started getting closer she really hasn't gotten my hopes up and then sent me sailing back down into the ground. As far as her wanting to spend time with me... well, what does that say I guess... when Brad goes to bed early and she comes to talk to me, just to say she misses me? What does that say? Yes I know this all gets into an emotional affair which it can be argued is just as bad as a sexual affair. How much more do I want it to go on? Well, until I lose patience. I do have a finite amount of patience with this. If she starts doing things like pulling me in then pushing me away... that's going to burn through that a lot faster, but because we've been steadily growing closer... I'm going to wait a bit longer. As long as that general direction is maintained I will probably hold out... even if it's another month or two. Beyond that, I think that my patience will be wearing thin. Is she my only chance to experience love? Probably not, but the issue is that it is extremely hard to find someone that likes you as much as you like them and vice-versa. Someone you have a tremendous amount in common with. Now, if I run into someone like that and she is still waffling around... yeah, I'm going to look into the newcomer but as it stands right now, connections like that don't just fall out of the sky on a daily basis and trying to "force it" by hanging out in bars, speed dating, etc... isn't working either. So, basically unless I'm turning down eligible interesting people... I don't think I'm hurting myself too much by hanging around for a bit. And I won't hear her say "let's work on this" because there were no problems to work on. Yes, actions speak louder than words... but there are also a lot of actions that are speaking pretty loudly right now... as far as the amount of time we spend talking continuing to increase. The thing is that back when I sent her those e-mails... I really wasn't expecting her to respond the way she did. I full on expected a response like "you need to get over me, this isn't helping... etc..." Also, I didn't expect us to continue to grow closer. Now, if things begin to stagnate... or she starts to back off... then I will have to re-evaluate what I'm doing. The whole business of pushing someone away to get them back is silly. There is one thing I think I need to point out and that is that everyone has to remember that Jennifer isn't exactly happy about this either. She feels really bad for what happened and I think in a lot of ways regrets that she didn't find a lot of this out sooner. The trouble is there simply wasn't time. We have had the conversation many times that there have been a couple of places where if we had turned left instead of right things probably would have gone differently. Now, those weren't even mistakes... they were just things like if I could have shown up at the wine-party she had. On the other hand those things may not have mattered, we'll never know. However, that tells me, and I think it's starting to occur to her that maybe she made a rash decision. At the time she had to weigh things like time and feelings she had already invested into one guy, along with knowing that person's strengths and faults already. At the time she saw me as a nice guy on the surface, but she really hadn't known me long enough to know if what she was seeing was me, or just a front. Also, neither one of us were really admitting our true feelings for the other. So once that e-mail got sent and I clued her in, and she clued me in it kinda got the ball rolling. Also she later found out that the extent of her own feelings towards me was much deeper than she had initially thought. Hence finding out that after not talking to me for a couple of weeks, she realized that it was really hard on her and she missed me. Now that it's been what, a month and she's gotten to know me much better she is beginning to see that I am who I am and obviously haven't been putting up a front. Now, will that pull be strong enough to prompt her to do something about it? I don't know. She has started to complain about Brad finally, and I am aware of the folly of drawing any particular conclusions from that because for every fault he has he must have something balancing it out otherwise she wouldn't be there. However... now having me as a comparison may be making her have second thoughts about what she has been putting up with and what she may be missing out on. The point with the horoscope wasn't whether she should or shouldn't listen to it. The only reason she pointed it out to me is that it was coincidental with what she was going through. Neither one of us take much stock in those things but when they ring home it's fun to share them. I think also her point in sharing that with me was to tell me in a semi-subtle way that she had a thought-process going on basically. That she was thinking about what she had, what she didn't, what she wanted, and what she was missing. Yes, I know I can sit here and try to draw conclusions all day and at the end still not really know what's going on. However the nice thing is that usually I can ask Jennifer about it and get an honest answer. So, like I said before, I'm not debating the sense of what I'm doing, but it's what I feel I need to do right now.

Well, yeah actually... a lot has happened in the past week or so. Well, I mean she's still with the other guy but there is an undeniable attraction between us. It's always been there, but ever since two weeks ago when I told her how I really felt (and she reciprocated for the most part) we've been growing progressively closer. Now, whether it will be enough to prompt her to action instead of just thinking about it... we'll have to wait and see. We've been talking more and more lately and it seems that even though it's dangerous from an emotional standpoint for me to do what I'm doing... the more I invest myself emotionally, it seems the more she reciprocates. She says she finds herself wanting to spend every free moment with me. So when she has a few spare moments she'll jump on IM to chat for a little bit. A couple of days ago we really delved into the reality of the situation and that was a very depressing IM conversation. Basically because it dredged up a lot of the hurt and pain for me that I felt a month ago. The next morning I was miserable because I wondered if I had any reason to believe she would choose any differently now. I wrote Jennifer an e-mail pretty much just saying I was having a rough morning (Tuesday) and could use a few words of kindness. Well, turns out Jennifer was super busy... but much to my surprise she called me on her lunch break to see how I was doing. Well, that pretty much turned my mood right around. I had kinda felt bad about being needy like that... but she didn't seem to mind. In fact she said that once she got back to work she didn't have much to do so we ended up chatting for the rest of the afternoon. Mostly about a shared fantasy of going to Fiji together. We were going to talk more that night but unfortunately her furnace broke so she had to go spend the night with the other guy. Yesterday though I was talking about how much I was going to miss her over New Years (especially at midnight). Well, she said she was going to miss me too... and that she had really thought about breaking her plans to spend New Years with me. Well, later on that led into her also saying that she'd also thought about what it would be like to call me up and say "yeah, so how soon can you be here." I asked her if she thought that could happen and she said "yeah, I think it could." This morning we got into a conversation about what it would be like if we did see each other again. She basically said she'd "jump on me". So I can tell we both really want to see each other again and it would be a wonderful moment for the both of us. Is all of this will be enough to push her past whatever is holding her back? I hope so, but only time will tell. She read off her horoscope yesterday and it was uncanny. It basically said that now was the time to either make bold romantic steps or make commitments. After that she said "what did I say about the one that makes sense?" That person of course is me. SO it seems like all the signs are there for her... hopefully she'll take action on them.