Would you marry someone who proposed with no ring?

[FathomFear]

I think thats part of the issue here. People fail to see that some people are actually fine with tradition. My fiance wanted nothing in return when he proposed.

He wanted no part either in me proposing. Which is fine because to us, thats what we wanted. The male proposing to the female. Its what WE wanted. No one can tell us what we did was wrong, or thats its not fair, or blah blah blah...because what matters is that is what WE wanted to do.

 

I disagree with that overall mindset. Being fine or content with a tradition does not make it logical, rational, or even healthy. It's only a sign that both people have bought into it, which doesn't say anything at all. Traditions need to be measured not against feelings of "Okayness". They need to be critically analyzed in regards to what kind of dynamic they reinforce in society, especially given that most people who "want" a tradition usually do so because they've been cultured since birth to buy into it. Not because the tradition is healthy or ultimately makes sense.

[Wayfara]

Where I live tradition is that both the man and the woman get an engagement ring, but the man doesn't get a wedding ring so when the couple exchanges rings in the wedding ceremony she actually gives him his engagement ring again. Because of this the engagement ring of the man is usually wider than the woman's engagement ring as he will only wear one ring. But it's getting increasingly popular now for the man to wear two rings as well so he will look married and not just engaged. The weddings I have been invited to the man got a wedding ring too. And when the man declines getting a wedding ring he usually does that from an esthetic standpoint, because he doesn't want to clutter his finger with a second ring (I know some men don't think it looks manly), or because he wants to follow tradition and do what his father and grandfather did.

 

Of course the one who pops the question can expect the partner to already have an engagement ring prepared when the partner may not have known that they would be proposed to. I don't think that's unfair to the one popping the question as popping the question is a free choice, if they don't want to propose, they don't have to. But I think nowadays many couples just talk about marriage and then they go shopping engagement rings together.

 

If I was proposed to without a ring and I thought he was serious and I was in love and I would still accept. Then we could shop matching rings But if he doesn't want to wear an engagement ring at all, well then I would accept that and we would skip the rings, I wouldn't buy one to myself. Anyhow, if he proposed with a ring I would appreciate the effort and it would feel like it was more planned and serious in a way, I wouldn't care though if the ring was cheap as long it's not made of plastic, I would actually prefer if it wasn't too expensive. But I think some propose in the spur of the moment to get a big smile out of their partner, but when the emotions settle down, they realize they are not really ready for the commitment, so if I would propose I would probably buy a ring to show I mean serious business, but I would probably wait with proposing and buying a ring until I got the feeling I would get a yes, it would be a waste of money if he doesn't want it.

[rocio]

What so many people don't realise is that one tradition that may be an advantage in and of itself can actually be a disadvantage when taken in the totality of life.

 

If men leave the burden of childrearing only to women because it is traditional they can hardly complain when women get custody more often in the event of divorce. If women expect men to open doors for them and carry their bags because it is traditional they can hardly complain when they are not considered as capable when it comes to jobs that involve physical prowess or danger and which they are perfectly capable of doing as well.

 

This is why the comparatively small traditions are important - because it is by them that we define ourselves.

 

Wonderful post. Couldn't agree more.

[Seraphim]

I disagree with that overall mindset. Being fine or content with a tradition does not make it logical, rational, or even healthy. It's only a sign that both people have bought into it, which doesn't say anything at all. Traditions need to be measured not against feelings of "Okayness". They need to be critically analyzed in regards to what kind of dynamic they reinforce in society, especially given that most people who "want" a tradition usually do so because they've been cultured since birth to buy into it. Not because the tradition is healthy or ultimately makes sense.

 

What is "logical,rational and healthy" is different for everyone. As I said before I do not believe I am niave or blindly follow tradition because I am some societal zombie zealot. I have to have a life that is comfortable for ME. I do not care what it says to someone else, they do not have to live it, right? They do not even have to agree with it. I am not hurting anyone with my life, I am not telling anyone they have to live my life or do it my way. I am more than happy to let people live their own life unless they are hurting me personally or someone else. My life only has to make sense to ME, not anyone else.

 

The other thing is if we were all the same life would be pretty boring.

[hexaemeron]

I find it very unfortunate that there are people who would let tradition dictate whether or not they could or would be happy with someone. Even aside from the equality issues (which I won't discuss - I just got unbanned -- no hurry to repeat), happiness in life, with yourself or joined with someone else is something that you must resolve internally for yourself. What works for you. Not trying to shoehorn yourself into tradition so you can feel validated in front of parents and society.

 

If what works for you happens to be traditional, great. If not, well, then maybe it's time to think outside the box. And there's nothing wrong with people trying to find their own answers.

[Seraphim]

In fact I do not find myself traditional in every way. I was in the Army for 13 years slogging it out in a "man's" world do the exact same things as men, the exact amount of work as men,lifting the exact weight of things as men, prepared to die like men, living in the dirt with the guys. Do not think I did not take my slings and arrows being in a "man's" world. I can live in both a "man's world" and a "woman's world", I am not a woman who EXPECTS a man to do everything for me. Far from it. I DO however expect a PARTNERSHIP that is filled with people who do things like offer gifts to each other, hold doors, carry bags, NOT because I can not do it or EXPECT it because I am a woman but because I am a PERSON and that other person's mate and there should be give and take of love and respect. So the fact I am being looked down on as "traditional" and "expecting" this and that because I am a woman does not sit well with me.

[Firiel]

The reason I wanted a ring other than a simple wedding band is because... well, I think jewelry is absolutely gorgeous, but I am far too practical to actually own any. So when my husband and I were looking at rings, he told me to pick out something that I really, really loved because I was going to be "stuck with it forever." He told me that price (within reason) shouldn't be considered. Of course, I did consider price because I wasn't going to stick him with a ridiculous bill and we looked and looked and looked until I found a ring I loved that was cheaper than most engagement rings (significantly under 1k). He wanted to get me something I really loved, and I could've been a martyr and, for the sake of "equality," rejected his offer and gotten a simple gold band. But he would have been hurt because he truly wanted to get me something I loved and I would have had something I thought was "nice" or "pretty." Neither one of us would have been satisfied with the exchange.

 

In comparison, I make him lunch whenever I'm home during his lunch hour. I don't have to. I don't make myself lunch. I usually eat cereal or some such nonsense. He wouldn't be angry at me if I said, "I just didn't feel up to making it today." But I like to see him eating good, healthy food and he likes to have something waiting for him. So we're both getting what we want, even if it's technically an "inequality."

 

I think a far better measure of the equality of a relationship is in other areas. We were long distance for two years because we both felt strongly that the other person's education was more important than our immediate happiness. I didn't pursue other opportunities after graduation in order to move to be near him while he finished school. Conversely, he will do the same for a year because I am starting a master's program here. We made a huge decision recently to try to go overseas for a significant amount of time and work there... but it was something we both felt was important, and we actually pretty much arrived at the decision independently of each other. Neither of us would have dragged the other over there. When we've discussed childcare, and he has been more than happy to offer to take care of the kids an evening or two a week so I could have a part time job. We work together and equally in the major aspects of our life... what does it matter if I make more food than he does or if he spent more on my engagement ring than I did on his engagement present?

[hexaemeron]

I'll freely admit I think tradition in the Western world is basically set up as constant revolving door of power exchange. I don't think it's particularly healthy. But that's just my opinion. It's not my place to tell anyone what to think or believe or feel (even though I will share it here with gusto when I feel it's needed), so you shouldn't let anyone make you feel bad for how you feel. At the same time, there's nothing wrong with keeping an open enough mind to allow for the possibility that just because you believe something, that doesn't automatically make it right. I know what I've seen of you here, and I know you walk that balance with grace. So please, don't let anyone make you feel bad for your beliefs. They're yours.

[OptomisticGirl]

And this is it, we all pick what traditions to follow. I wanted to wear on my wedding day - L wanted me to - but I didn't want obey in our vows. L wanted me in a veil, I refuse to have it over my face.

[Batya33]

I disagree with that overall mindset. Being fine or content with a tradition does not make it logical, rational, or even healthy. It's only a sign that both people have bought into it, which doesn't say anything at all. Traditions need to be measured not against feelings of "Okayness". They need to be critically analyzed in regards to what kind of dynamic they reinforce in society, especially given that most people who "want" a tradition usually do so because they've been cultured since birth to buy into it. Not because the tradition is healthy or ultimately makes sense.

 

I refuse to take the cynical mindset that people follow tradition blindly - I would say the majority do so because it is what also feels right and comfortable to them and they are perfectly capable of choosing a different path and know of all the different paths and happily choose what is "traditional". For me it was about similar values and while it wouldn't have been a dealbreaker if he didn't want me to have an engagement ring I would have had to know why. A response "because it's just a silly tradition and I refuse to follow traditions" probably wouldn't have worked for me long term because I'm not a believer in rejecting traditions "just because" it's a tradition. Daring to be different is laudable, impressive - have done it myself and will continue to -but not when it's just so the person can think of themselves as "different". To me that's just as closeminded as blindly following a tradition that is destructive.

[petite]

At the same time, there's nothing wrong with keeping an open enough mind to allow for the possibility that just because you believe something, that doesn't automatically make it right.

True, but what is right for oe couple can be completely wrong for another.

[Seraphim]

Hex,

 

I know it does not make me or my ideas right, and not right for everyone, but they are right for me. How can one live someone else's beliefs and their life? That is just recipe for disaster and heart ache and it is soul and mind numbing. People can only live their own life and belief, right? I am more than happy to let people be who they are,unless they are abusing me or someone else. I just get a little irritated when people tell me " hey, you're wrong" I guess because I do not tell people they are wrong with what they do with their life. That is my own issue though I guess, I should just learn to ignore it and hum my tune and go on.

[rocio]

Likely what is important is that people are following traditions not just because they are traditions but because they have assessed them critically and come to the conclusion, using their own common sense, that it is a desirable or effective tradition.

 

The issue of traditions is one that my husband and I are very familiar with, given that we were raised on different continents and in drastically different cultures. So we can rarely just accept at face value a tradition that we've been raised with. There are some traditions that make sense to both of us. For example, in his culture you bow to your parents. When I see his parents, I do this. I love the tradition and it makes perfect sense to me. We also get our daughter to bow to us in gratitude when we've purchased something for her.

 

There are other traditions that we've chosen to abandon. For example, in his country, it is felt that no self-respecting parents would raise their children without physical punishment. But my husband prefers other methods. Additionally, he was raised in a culture where men are banned from the kitchen. His father would admonish him if he even went to make himself a tea. However, as much as it does sometimes make him feel emasculated, he swallows his pride and chooses to help with cooking, washing dishes, laundry, etc. because he says he knows I'm not superwoman and it's the right thing to do. (Of course, I'm sensitive in doing all I can to prevent him from feel emasculated in this, as of course that's not what any wife wants for her husband.)

 

In my family, mothers always stay home with their children. It's what my mom did, it's what my sister did. I was raised to think it was very wrong to send a child to daycare. But that's not what makes sense to me, so I won't follow that tradition. However, one tradition I did maintain was praying before we eat, although I am agnostic, because I think it's healthy to take the time to show appreciation for your food before you eat it.

 

Just because something is a tradition, that doesn't mean it's without merit. Many traditions still make perfect sense today. Others do not. What is important is that you carry that tradition, not because it "just feels familiar" but because it makes good, logical sense to you.

[Batya33]

I would not consider hitting children as punishment to be a tradition -it might be a practice in certain communities -pointing that out because I think "tradition" gets very broadly labeled and typically with a negative/closeminded connotation.

[rocio]

Physical punishment may be considered negative to you, but to the majority of humans alive today, it is considered to be a positive. They would argue that failing to use physical punishment is actually negative, and harmful to a child.

 

However, you're right that customs and practises are different from traditions, and that physical punishment would not be classified as a "tradition". I think my point still stands, though.

[Snny]

I think it's situational. I have been proposed by someone over the phone. He was in the military and was out in Afghanistan at the time. He did it because he was scared s***less about the possibility of not coming back home alive since he was headed into a dangerous mission (which ended up on the news two days later) and he needed some sense of security while out fighting. I was the only one who knew the small details about the mission because he couldn't tell his family. I was put on spot because if I didn't accept the proposal he might has killed himself while fighting A.Q. Plus I was in love with him though it was hard to go through the LDR with him.

 

Unfortunately, our engagement fell through after he came back home since he turned very mean and abusive

 

My current fiancee proposed to me with a ring.

[Batya33]

Physical punishment may be considered negative to you, but to the majority of humans alive today, it is considered to be a positive. They would argue that failing to use physical punishment is actually negative, and harmful to a child.

 

However, you're right that customs and practises are different from traditions, and that physical punishment would not be classified as a "tradition". I think my point still stands, though.

 

I completely disagree with you as far as child abuse (just look at all the organizations, agencies ,schools, etc etc devoted to combating child abuse -and I have an extensive background in educating and working with young children -and that is just a minor example of why I couldn't disagree more) but that is beyond the topic of this thread. I am sorry you have this view but delighted that you have chosen not to follow this practice with your own children.

[rocio]

What view? There is a world outside of the u.s. It's huge and heavily populated and it is a fact that physical punishment is used by the vast majority of parents. I made no judgement statement about whether it was right or wrong. Simply stating facts.

[OptomisticGirl]

What view? There is a world outside of the u.s. It's huge and heavily populated and it is a fact that physical punishment is used by the vast majority of parents. I made no judgement statement about whether it was right or wrong. Simply stating facts.

 

Agree with this.

[Batya33]

What view? There is a world outside of the u.s. It's huge and heavily populated and it is a fact that physical punishment is used by the vast majority of parents. I made no judgement statement about whether it was right or wrong. Simply stating facts.

 

And I disagree with the basis for your facts as it applies to the U.S., Europe, etc. What happens in third world countries -I am not sure but my guess is that it is partly due to limited or no access to resources that would shed light on the harmful effects of child abuse. Perhaps you are correct about other countries - but I am entitled to disagree with what you claim are "facts".

[DN]

This is gettig way off topic from engagement rings.

[Alezia]

To get back to the topic, I don't think many couples get engaged only after knowing themselves for a very short period of time such as 6 months. This was more used to be customary but we often see couples that have been dating for 4+ years without tying the knot. I suppose that learning how the other person interacts (changing diapers, jobs, roles around the home etc...) portrays the 'real' gender equalisms rather than the 'ring' itself. Really, it's just another piece of materialism - and although, most people love wearing a symbol of their relationship, that it is nothing more than that. People can assess for themselves whether or not that this tradition and piece of metal does not really diminish their roles or the dynamics of their relationship.

 

I still know many people that go through the motions of going to the church for events such as Christmas or Easter, when in reality they don't really believe in the church or attending mass. So, either way, it will take a while for them to completely disapear if people think that formal engagements should no longer be made.

[OptomisticGirl]

We got enaged at only 4 months without a ring. We had even previously discussed a trip to Ireland for six months ahead and L hints heavily that would be when he did it. Of course we moved things up along....

[greywolf]

Yes. In fact, I think I would prefer not having one. I would probably want a wedding ring though, or a wedding band more likely. I don't really like the way rings look with a diamond in the middle.

[Capricorn3]

Would you accept?

Yes, I would. I think a wedding ring would suffice (when one gets married), so no need for an engagement ring.