Carnatic

well you don't need to be sucked into this materialism, when you're older you can choose where you live and if you don't like certain things about California you can choose to live elsewhere. You don't seem to agree with all of this materialism of Californian society so why try to fulfil feelings of inadequacy it puts onto you.

dunno... doesn't sound like unusual behaviour for small children. when I was four I would be randomly approaching adults... I don't know what would draw me to people though, maybe you have a friendly face.

Is there no way you can visit the doctor for free? I mean i know you guys don't have the NHS over there but is there not some way that people who can't afford to see the doctor can have it paid for them. I mean if it's a serious enough problem, which it sounds to be.

Becoming quite curious about what might be so special about jurupa now... my guess is he's someone famous. lol As far as metros go, I think being metrosexual is a tactic employed by lots of not so good looking guys, I do it myself, not to be fully metrosexual but to be somewhat fashionista-esque, to try to make up for natural lack of looks. The main thing I was wanting to know was can style make up for not being so good looking. As I said before, with me and girls an average looking girl can be elevated to being a hot girl by being stylish.

I'm pretty certain that hiring a prostitute won't solve all your problems... I have friends who did a similar thing, felt they NEEDED to have sex, and eventually paid a prostitute. They didn't feel that great about it afterwards, the crucial stress relief that was missing was the affection you can only get from someone who loves you, sex on it's own doesn't help... it's just overly elaborate masturbation. As for the virginity thing, I know you live in California but I still think it's probably more your age than where you are... more people are a virgin at 18 than you probably know, and at 18 people can be immature about it. When I was 18 I would have agreed with you I would never have let on I was a virgin, if conversation veered onto sex I'd quickly change the subject or make an excuse to leave/go to the bar. Now I'm 23 and I'm still a virgin, and that's a fairly well known fact amongst those who know me, no-one makes a big deal out of it, I know other people my age who are still virgins too; we aren't social lepers and girls don't turn us down because of it; we're just guys who haven't been that lucky with girls in the 5 or 6 years we've been dating and haven't resorted to hiring a prostitute. And that's fine by most people.

Well if her parents threw her out then any accusations that you kidnapped their daughter will probably fall on deaf ears... I don't know how the law works over there but I fail to see how under any system offering accommodation to a family member who has been thrown out by her parents could be construed as kidnapping or abduction.

ah now I don't think you should feel it's shallow of you to notice how good looking someone is

I used to sleepwalk, I think it's to do with having irregular sleep patterns, alcohol and caffiene comsumption in my case and stress. It culminated with me locking myself out of my own flat, making too much noise trying to get back it and alerting a resident of the apartment complex who woke me up by shouting at me and threatening me, unaware I was sleepwalking. I took to tieing a key round my ankle when I went to bed after that but I never sleepwalked again.

lol I almost hear more girls on here who say they prefer only moderately good looking guys to the really good looking guys than those who like their guys 'hot'... It's certainly fairly common anyway. Of course it depends what you mean by good looking, it's less straightforward with guys than with girls... there is the classic masculine square jawed look of Brad Pitt and Christian Bale, but then there is also the metrosexual look of David Beckham and Johnny Depp that many women prefer. Also there's what's more important in looks, raw looks or style; I know that for me about half of whether I consider a girl attractive or not is a style thing, more to say that an average looking girl can elevate herself to 'hot' status through how she dresses... me likes me little fashionistas I myself am only of ugly/average looks but I have a friend who is a fashion designer and who took it upon herself to make me wear more fashionable clothes and hair, and I gotta say there's been a marked improvement in girls' reactions to me, even if I'm too shy to make a move I can flirt through eye contact and get a girl smiling at me.

hmm... I think I've maybe made too much of a thing out of this, I'm not thinking of it so much now, but it's still interesting discussion. More personally I do have this habit of over thinking things, every now and again someone will say to me 'your problem is that you are too shy/afraid/whatever to go beyond flirting and make a move' and they'll be right, but in the inbetween time, and when I've just failed to make a move with a girl, I try to come up with other excuses as to why I have been so unsuccessful, I'll say I'm too ugly, boring, standards too high whatever excuse I haven't tried before... I suppose part of it is just looking for ways in which I can say not being able to find a girl is not my fault/it's beyond my control and part of it is that I've become so entrenched in being unappealing to girls that when I get the chance to not be so unappealing my subconscious almost wants to fail so I can continue having something to whinge about... enough of that for now though... bedtime methinks Thanks

What's that then, I assume you mean some kind of howitzer.

aw such a shame... if only you had low standards

Red Queen and Doyathink, I know guys who fulfil all of the criteria you originally listed, and waddayaknow they're alive too Ailec, a man who doesn't like jokes, are you serious? I've not really been one for having checklists or criteria, my list is more of a bare minumum, only the things without which a relationship wouldn't work, but there would still have to be some sort of chemistry with a girl who checked all the boxes. 1) Looks Good (but I couldn't really say what makes me find a girl attractive, it's just there or it isn't) 2) Laid back, easy to talk to and get along with 3) A sense of humour similar to my own, embraces spontaneity 4) Tolerant of my own ways and interests, e.g. not a girl who would include on her list things like 'must not be a football fan' 5) Able to have an intelligent, philosophical conversation... without this compromising 2) or 3) 6) Shares enough interests with me, mainly taste in music for conversation 7) Down to earth Having said this I've never had a girlfriend, let alone one who fulfils all these criteria so I may not know what I am talking about... so final criteria, 8 ) Must have low standards.

Thanks for all your advice... Caterina I suggesting I felt 'less attractive' women were thinking about me that since I was ugly I would be easy to get, it was simply the fact that I found them unattractive and wouldn't want to pursue a relationsip with them... and is this the right way to be, should I have these 'standards of looks' and is it shallow, especially for me to be considering girls to be not good looking. I was wondering though... Scotcha and Monkey are probably right... I mean I say I'm outgoing, but I am shy when it comes to girls and I might be using this whole standards business as a whole new excuse... I make excuses often, I'll think about it.

What are people's opinions on standards? And by standards I mean how attracted to someone physically you think you should be before you'd consider a relationship. I've never had a girlfriend, or even come close to having one; I go through phases of either getting on with life or feeling desperately lonely. I'm currently going feeling lonely, partly because I'm home for the summer and that's quite boring and partly because I have just finished university, thus bringing to an end the period of my life where I met more girls than the rest of my life put together. I've always wondered why I struggled so much to attract female interest; I mean I'm no oil painting but I'm not a Picasso either. I'm not successful and rich, but I have a degree so so at least I'm 'relatively' intelligent and I have prospects, mostly I'm quite outgoing, impressionable and confident, but the girls don't want to know. I think my standards are too high, maybe anyway. It's difficult to tell, I mean I consider most of my mates' girlfriends to be attractive, so it's not like I'm the only one who has standards; and by and large the girls who do approach me are towards the highly attractive end of the scale; but being approached never leads to anything. I have had a bit more clear interest from girls who I don't fancy, and I feel like some kind of monster for turning them down because I don't find them attractive. I feel that the girls I find attractive are all those who are too attractive to find me attractive, yet they approach me and I assume (naturally) there is no attraction, could I even think there would be attraction. I wonder what people think? Should I just stop being a prima donna and make do? Is it even possible to make do and be happy with someone you don't fancy? Has anyone any experience of this? Is there any reason why girls who I get chatting to randomly are all the really good looking ones? Is there any chance I have it all wrong and they might be attracted to me? Should I shut up, is all this talk of standards just misguided vanity? Does anyone actually think looks mean nothing? Thanks for any advice... and not just advice for me, I put my own experience in and made it seem like I was just after advice but I also want to stimulate some kind of discussion on standards. Thanks. Carnatic.

Just so you know bandrat, I find girls around your height really quite sexy... a lot of guys do, for a girl being very short is much better than being very tall. For the record I'm 5' 9" ... quite short for a bloke.

Similarly I feel bad whenever a girl likes me but I am not physically attracted to her. I made a post earlier about how I felt like such a monster because a I heard a close friend was attracted to me, and while she has a great personality I didn't find her attractive and had to turn her down. In my case I guess it's becuase I am very below average in terms of looks and feel very hypocritical to be turning girls down based on looks, especially when girls approach me so seldomly. But at the end of the day, physical attraction is something that has to be a part of a successful relationship, society wants to make you feel guilty to be placing any kind of weight on it but if you ignore it then you will feel even worse, to be forcing a relationship with someone who you just don't fancy is like forcing a square peg into a round hole. I feel that there are other guys who have lower standards than me... most of them are probably better looking than me too, so I need a good looking girl with low standards, unfortunate but I can't make myself better looking and my standards are even less possible to change, so that's just what I am waiting for, I don't know how long it will be, but mates saying I am aiming unrealistically high doesn't really help. For you I'm sure there are plenty of nice guys who are also intelligent and good looking. Why shouldn't there be? If you do find them scarce, perhaps it's not that intelligent guys aren't good looking, but that they tend to be the exact opposite of vain... maybe you can find a guy who would 'scrub up well' as it were.

well there's no point in continuing to deny you ever hung out with the coworker, you boyfriend at this point knows you are lying; so the only way to get him to see that you aren't lying about not having slept with the guy is to apologise and say you were lying about hanging out with the coworker because you felt guilty for having done so and were worried he would jump to conclusions, and swear down you were only lying because you felt ashamed for flirting with other guys and hoped it would all be forgotten about if you ignored it, not because you had further, guiltier secrets to hide. Unfortunately it sounds like your boyfriend is quite insecure, and insecure guys will have a hard time believing that their girlfriends are with them because they want to be; so he may still think you must have slept with the guy. You'll just have to try your hardest to come accross as frank, honest and down to earth if he is to believe you. best of luck.

Thanks for the advice... I'm feeling a bit better now, still like a bit of a hypocrite but I went out with C the other evening (there was supposed to be a few of us but the others couldn't make it and joined us later on), it was OK, I was terrified at first that I wouldn't be able to hide my shame and guilt (R hasn't told her what I said) but I calmed down after a bit. I felt much worse from the start this time than with the other girl who I also rejected partly because C is such a good friend of mine and partly because with the other girl I didn't reject her indirectly through a go-between. I said to her that we weren't going to get into a relationshop and she agreed, so even though my motives had been I wasn't attracted to her I felt OK about it. I'm also starting to think if it was maybe R causing more trouble than an issue is worth... she has a tendency to get overexcited. I don't know about the future though, like what would happen if a girl I was attracted to was clearly attracted to me... I tend to refuse to believe anyone who suggests 'such-and-such' has a thing for me, and if I see signs from the girl herself I tend to refuse to believe that too. I do occasionally think about wanting to have a girlfriend, but I've tried to cut doing that down. I'm aware that I may not ever have a girlfriend but I'm not thinking about it, so that's why I was shocked and a bit scared when R suggested 'I know someone who has a soft spot for you'. I was scared that I might have to reject her (which I did), I was also scared that I might like her and have to try my best not to put her off. Truth is I'm self destructive, if something good did happen to me, like a girl I really fancied, also liked me then I'd surely find some way to keep it from happening. I'd run a mile or more likely just refuse to believe it. In my head I know exactly how I'd behave if I was ever with such a girl and she was making clear indications of interest; but in practice I would probably be scared to assume they were indications of interest (I may be misinterpreting her) and try to carry on as normal. There is a clear gap between theory and practice

lol, funny quote, it's just a shame some of us were painted with a stamp made from half a potato

actually the 'R' I spoke of is a fashion student... she made sure I started dressing fashionably and doing something more attractive with my hair... but you know what they say 'you can't polish a turd'. Being ugly doesn't often bother me though, but then again my standards with girls don't usually come up because it can usually be taken for granted that girls don't find me attractive. But if a girl has low enough standards to be interested in me then it seems a bit harsh for them to be told they don't come up to my standards.

Yeah there are all kinds of lesbians, I know a few girly ones, met a group of them just last week. Sometimes you get the butch/girly couples that simulate a masculine/femenine relationship, sometimes they are both butch, sometimes both girly and sometimes neither.

I'm just not attractive... Guys especially I always say can't just say by looking in a mirror whether or not they are attractive, but like I said only 3 girls have ever shown any signs of attraction, and 1 of these dropped that when she met me in person. I would generally assume that better looking girls go for better looking guys. yeah they may rate personality as important too, but there are plenty of nice guys who are good looking too, to they can go for someone who has a god personality as is attractive.

yeah that's the short of it. I just wanted to put it in a bit of context.

I don't know whether this is going to turn into a request for advice or whether I am just wanting to talk about things, but I'm not feeling so good about myself at the moment, and paradoxically it's the result of a girl taking an interest in me. The girl in question is a good friend of mine and part of large group of mates I go to bars, cafes, etc with a lot, I'll refer to her as C. Apparently she liked me, looks and personality I think I don't really know what she saw in me, she just did and I don't know how long for. She asked a mutual friend 'R' to find out whether I might be interested, so R wasn't very subtle and just asked me outright. Problem is, I don't find C attractive, and I told R this... not saying she is ugly and she has a great personality, just my opinion that I don't fancy her, and to me looks are as important as personality, I have to fancy a girl as well as like her as a friend. R will tell C she doesn't think I'm interested, she won't tell her that she actually asked me directly though. I feel really bad for rejecting C... not because I imagine C will be distraught, she won't be, a little disappointed at worst, I'm not so big-headed I think a girl who is interested in me would be devastated if I said no. The reason I feel like I must be a complete monster for rejecting her is that I'm no oil painting myself... seriously I really am quite ugly (it's not being ugly that's troubling me it's the fact I behave towards girls as though I am a lot better looking that bothers me here). I feel like such a hypocrite for turning C down on the basis that I don't find her attractive enough. It's like there's a voice in my head saying to myself 'who the hell are you to decide who is and who isn't attractive, have you looked in a mirror lately?'. I have absolutely no right to be so shallow as to turn someone down based on looks... on the balance of things C is probably better looking than I am so the whole situation is totally perverse, yet in my head, totally inavoidable. I mean I am who I am, my standards for girls' appearances may be way too high considering my own appearance. I'm not talking about fashion model, here though I do prefer a more down to earth, curvaceous girl (not using curvaceous as a euphemism for overweight), but I prefer a girl who is, in my opinion pretty.I can't change that, I can't just lower my standards... neither do I feel I can just ignore them and go for a girl I don't fancy... I just... shallow as it sounds... wouldn't be happy, and that's just who I am and I hate myself because of it. To put it in context, In my entire life (I'm 23 and at university) and have only ever had 3 girls show any kind of interest in me... including C in that. Of the other two, one lost interest after meeting me in person (she had picked me out in a friend's photos and asked him to give me her number) and the other one, again I rejected because I didn't find her attractive (and also the one who later lost interest was really attractive and she came into the picture round about then). So, as they say, beggars can't be choosers, I attract so few girls and those that I do I turn away because I don't find them attractive. Seriously, I'm not that up myself that I think C is sat in her room crying at the moment, she only asked R in a 'maybe I'd be interested, find out if he is likewise' kind of way. She might be quite offended though that such an ugly guy had the nerve to say she wasn't attractive enough (R will try her best not to imply I don't find C attractive), C is probably perfectly happy and I know R has probably already spoken to her as I saw them both today, and later we're all going out to a gig together. We'll carry on being good friends, but I do feel quite ashamed of myself. Does anybody know what I'm talking about? Does anyone want to tell me to stop being such a shallow git? Carnatic.