Carnatic

I think people are still assuming that this must be down to something in the OP's personality... suggesting jobs that might be more suited to someone who is stern. But the point is that she might be a cutesy overfriendly type and maybe doesn't want to be treated as if she is otherwise. It sucks because there's not much can be done but everyone's entitled to rant.

Thanks... I just hope I can see myself in a better light. I always felt that my many moral failings... 'lazy, inconsiderate, aloof, self-absorbed, superior' were unfair... that I wasn't those things even though everyone seemed to believe I was. But it's difficult when everyone thinks that of you. You start to wonder if maybe you're the one that's wrong, that you feel like you're trying your hardest but clearly everyone else tries even harder. I wanted to believe that I was doing my best but as I got older just started to feel that I mustn't be, I must be lying to myself if I believe that I am. I started to feel that 'bad people' must also be misunderstood and started to empathise more with villains and monsters, thinking that well if I'm a bad person from other's perspective but feel different myself the same must be true of others. sigh. It's been a long road.

First, a disclaimer. I'm not currently diagnosed with ADHD though I have an assessment coming up after a psychiatrist following a screening appointment felt it was likely I would be diagnosed (I was also screened for ASD but that was seen as unlikely and I wasn't put forward for assessment). I wouldn't normally make a post like this, I don't want to come across like I'm trying to self-diagnose or give myself permission to keep failing in life. I've been struggling with low self worth my entire life which has affected my ability to form relationships and to look after my own mental health, and have been through therapy many times for depression, anxiety and PTSD with no significant change to my overall mood and while the screening focussed on more practical things such as my organisation skills (or lack of), I'd heard more and more about how ADHD could be the cause of low self-worth and looked into it a bit. Probably the main thing contributing to my self worth was feeling judged constantly going right back to school (in fact, especially when I was a child) as I would struggle with certain things; paying attention, following instructions (accurately), following step-by-step procedures, organising my time, punctuality, procrastination etc. I felt I was trying really hard, really giving people all the attention I could, trying to keep my mind on track, trying to remember what it was I was supposed to be doing and doing things in the way that I was supposed to do them instead of running short on time and forgetting about the procedures I was supposed to be following as I rushed to complete at the end. These sort of difficulties have followed me into my working life and made it difficult for me to hold down a job. I'm currently self-employed, which is also difficult but at least nobody is judging me on how I work. As a child, my shortcomings were constantly put down to moral failings. I was seen as aloof, self-absorbed, arrogant and generally my lack of attention, letting down others in group work and disregarding instructions was seen as a sign that I thought I was better than everyone else and that my way was better than anyone else's. This judgement always really hurt as I believed myself to be a kind and attentive friend, yet how could I be right when everyone else, including almost all grown-ups saw me as pretty much the opposite to how I saw myself. I grew up feeling that I couldn't be trusted to know myself, or love myself, that I was failing spectacularly to be the person I wanted to be. As an adult I still have this feeling of a broken self-image, that I don't know myself, that my own feelings of who I am are lies I've told myself. I fear that I might even be a narcissist who has an inflated sense of self worth because the way I see myself deep down clearly isn't the way I actually am. I try really hard to be attentive to the point of people-pleasing. I'm not really looking for advice as such, my assessment is in December and we'll see where things go from there and if there is any way my sense of self can be salvaged, but I wondered if these words rang true for anyone else.

I feel your pain. I'm similar, it's just how my face looks. I have downward pointing creases in the corners of my mouth that give the impression of me frowning and just generally quite a saggy face, so gravity will do its thing, that's only getting worse as I get older. People will tell me to smile more but they never seem to understand that it still hurts to be judged as someone who is miserable, like they just seem to assume that regardless of what you say you are miserable. Nobody can just go around grinning 24/7, if you do people will probably think you're a moron and you'll probably start to get a sore face, but some people have faces that look naturally like slight smiles, even if they are in a bad mood they look happy so it works both ways.

Well yeah I wasn't referring to the OP's experience or saying that it's the same as any of those things, I was referring to my own... really only because the OP kept saying that he was the only one who couldn't find a partner, like I wasn't trying to say 'hey let's talk about my issues' only 'I have issues too'. But then someone came along to analyse my issues and this is where we are now. I don't really want to talk about this I want to focus on the OP's issues too, but also I'm going to say 'hey actually' if people start saying my issues are just down to having my ego bruised, or I chose to have my confidence dented.

Yes I reacted because Batya said it was my choice to let what happened to me affect me, and has done so in the past too. Not related to the OPs situation but all I wanted to do was add my experience since the OP thinks he's the only one, not have it picked apart by a woman who seems to be able to shrug off everything that happens to her.

So if someone punches me in the face and busts my nose would you argue that while I didn't choose to get punched I did choose to bleed? And if that's not the case for my nose when why is it for my brain. What about soldiers suffering PTSD, would you tell them that they chose to be affected by the things they saw?

Everything is a choice to you isn't it? I don't think I've ever seen a thread where someone has said they have an issue, whether confidence, dating, mental health, where you haven't at some point said 'it's a choice'. I know that's your personal ideology when it comes to mental health issues, I find it kinda toxic. Yes, being in an abusive relationship dented my confidence, some people have it a lot worse... some people don't survive them so I'm fine with saying my mental health suffered as a result of what I experienced.

I get your frustration that sometimes when you say you're having difficulty meeting women to date you get people telling you to do things you're already doing. Of course nobody on this site knows you, so it's not their fault if they read your posts and then suggest going out more or doing more activities. This sort of thing can make you frustrated and defensive, it does to me anyway and then that makes it look like you have an attitude problem. It's the reason why I'm more in favour of open discussion than one person with a problem and everyone else offering solutions and I'd rather ask someone another question than give them an answer. From my perspective too, the more that people (my friends, or people online) suggest things like this, the more it can make me feel at a loss to explain why I can't find women who are interested in me. If people say 'why don't you talk to women, or why don't you join clubs for activities' and I already do these things then people like myself and the OP can be drawn towards the conclusion that maybe we're just too ugly and there's no getting over it. Hopefully it's something else, and I don't expect someone who doesn't know me on the internet to have the idea but again that's why I prefer open discussions. If you're interested in my perspective OP, I did have a girlfriend before I turned 30, but only one, when I was 27, for around a year and half and she was quite obviously (to those around me) only interested in having somewhere to live and not really interested in me at all, so yeah that dented my confidence.

Out of interest OP, what is your sense of style like, are you able to describe the kinds of clothing that appeal to you, or that you are most likely to wear out of the house? It's a factor in attraction, and something that can work in your favour if you are naturally unattractive. It's subjective of course, I know the way I look wouldn't appeal to women who are after a clean-cut understated professional-looking guy, but it's a personality thing and I'm working under the assumption that a woman I'd be attracted to would be put off by a clean-cut understated professional-looking guy. You want to be visually appealing but it's also about trying to say 'this is what my personality is like'. All that said, it isn't plain sailing. Dressing up draws attention and if your physical features, face etc aren't especially attractive then sometimes it does feel like you're showcasing that. Sometimes I do feel like I'm not attractive enough to be allowed to dress the way I do, particularly if I've attracted unkind comments from people. I mentioned earlier in this thread about people coming up to me and telling me I'm ugly, it doesn't happen if I dress down, and go out always with just a hoody and jeans... as I did for a spell in my early thirties, but I don't like that. Maybe some people feel that if you dress up then you must think that you're attractive and that it's up to them to give you a dose of reality, I dont know, but it does mean I feel more self-conscious for having put in the effort to look good with how I dress and style myself. I know that I can be eye-catching, especially with my hair, which is quite distinctive, and that invites scrutiny, and I do feel that even if I just had very average and plain features I'd feel more like I was just seen as pulling it off and less as a curiosity because an ugly guy is trying to be all stylish. I don't know whether your style is similar but I mean these things regardless of whether your style is more colourful and bohemian, clean-cut and professional or whatever.

I never said I couldn't drive.

The whole driving thing really is a bone of contention huh. Honestly I'd recommend just leaving that topic alone because people aren't gonna agree on it, it depends where you live and to an extent what age and social circles you move in. Yes there are plenty of things that you can do if you have access to a vehicle and a number of these things can make you a better date (however I would not expect a woman I've just dated a few times to get in a car with me and wouldn't ask her to) but unless you live somewhere where cars are a key cultural thing and/or places are so spread apart with poor public transport so you would struggle to get about without a car then it's likely it's a non-issue. I couldn't tell you which people in my circle of friends drive, unless I've actually had a lift of them before, and there are people I've known for years who don't know that I drive because there's not been a situation where I've driven them anywhere... and I'm 39, but every circle of friends I've had, whether at school, university or the places I've lived since, it's been a minority who drive and nobody really cares or asks whether you can or can't. I learned to drive at 19 but didn't own a car until I was 25, I've never lived anywhere where not driving would be a big disadvantage. It sounds like in some places it's a key thing about you up there with 'do you drink/smoke' and do you 'want/have children' which is fair enough, in some places it's a cultural thing and in some places it's just an essential thing.

I haven't watched the video lolita shared, and I guess you might be aware then of some of the things he has said as the argument you make about not agreeing with everything he says is fairly common. He does sometimes say things I'll admit that I don't disagree with but anyone can do that, it's unlikely there's anyone who ever existed who I 100% disagree with, however I view these sorts of things (and I'm not on board with his more soft-conservative views either so there's that) as just fluff that serves the purpose of elevating his overall view men's place and women's place. I haven't watched everything he's ever done either but I don't subscribe to the view that you can't criticise someone until you're totally familiar with everything they've, like you have to watch every single video before your critique can be considered valid. In case anyone isn't aware of some of his more objectionable views, the first one I can recall is him blaming a man who was angry that women weren't interested him going on a killing spree, killing six people, not on the man himself, or the culture that says men are entitled to sex if they're nice guys (this was the incel by the way) but on female promiscuity. He also argues that the reason men are in so many high powered jobs is because men are simply better at those jobs and that patriarchy is actually just a meritocracy.

I notice we're back on the topic of driving. I don't think the OP has said where he's from, but the idea of being able to drive and sometimes also owning a car being an essential marker of adulthood does vary depending on where you live and what age group you're in. I would say that for the majority of the world's population though, whether or not you're able to drive by the age of 30 is a non-issue and if you're dating then the person you're dating may have no idea whether you drive or not. I don't care, I've never been on a date with a woman who cared and there's no correlation I can think of between which of my friends drive and relationship stating / dating success.

He just stands for everything I stand against, and I know people will claim he's misunderstood but I've seen enough of his content to have decided he isn't misunderstood he's just a nasty, misogynistic, bigoted demagogue.

That guy is a horrendous example of a human being and anyone taking his advice deserves to still be single. And that's all I'll say about that.

As someone who is about to enter his 40's, and lives in a small(ish) city, but also not near any of the big cities then just finding the right sort of person, so compatability. I probably live a fairly 'bohemian' lifestyle... well I am a professional artist and I earn enough to support myself but not to get on the property ladder or start a family or any of that stuff, most of my friends are similar to me, I work random hours so socialise mid-week and go to less mainstream bars but I socialise a lot, I'm not a homebody and I don't really stick to routines well. Sometimes it just seems like the pool of available women aged 35-45 (if we call that a realistic age range for me) who have a compatable lifestyle is far too small. For the majority I meet (usually through work) life is now about looking after children, home improvements, eyeing up the value of your pension and enjoying nights in front of your 42 inch TV.

oh I don't use them.. I did, but not any more

I think people get a bit hung up on this site about needing to give advice if I'm honest though. I don't know if we really know all that much about the OP's attitude either since most of us, if you look through our posts probably would look like we're just really whiny and full of problems. Sometimes you just need to tell people what your problems are.

I wouldn't say that people always make thier decision based on photos, or that they think they are able to judge chemistry by looking at a photo, but having the mindset that you cannot judge chemistry through a photo and not judging chemistry through a photo are two different things. When I mentioned Tinder before though it was just because it was the first thing that came to mind I wasn't suggesting that photos have replaced in-person meetings as the way to assess someone's attractiveness. I do though think they have become more influential than they were.

I don't know to what extent it applies to the OP but it is something I'm aware of that when guys are complaining that they're too unattractive to get dates they're often ignoring that women may be in the same boat; either assuming that women, across the board, have it easy or just only going after certain women who (I'm avoiding getting into calling women hot or ugly) have lots of men to choose from. That said, I wouldn't like it if anyone assumed that of me so I don't want to assume it of him. I know one or two people have suggested it. There are viewpoints here at both extremes of people making out like it's impossible to find love if you aren't attractive, and also people making out that struggling to find dates because of how you look isn't a thing at all. I hope we can all at least agree the truth is somewhere in between. It's certainly possible the OP has a complex where he is the only ugly person in the world and everyone else is attractive. Going off what the OP says about his own romantic past, he may assume that I'm one of those attractive people... I have been in a relationship before, I have had sex before, I have been on dates before... though the last time any of those things happened was 13, 7 and 2 years ago respectively. When I look at my friends who are more successful romantically than I am, are they better looking than me? To be honest a lot of them probably are, I move in artsy/creative circles and a lot of those people are quite attractive, strong features, a good sense of style... but also there are other reasons why so many of my friends male and female are considered to be such catches, a lot of them are very talented artists and musicians with intelligent conversation and sparkling personalities.

Ah right... I get what you mean now. I wasn't talking exclusively about photos as being how people judge attractiveness, I forgot I even wrote about photos and swiping but it was just meant as an example, since it's common thes days and people will make a lot of assessments in a short space of time. When you were disagreeing with me I thought you were disagreeing with the notion that physical appearance plays any part at all. Photos as an element of judging attraction is becoming more unavoidable now though. Even if we're not talking Tinder, there are just more photos of everyone around than before so the chances that someone you're talking to knows you only in person and hasn't seen photos of you before is nowadays pretty low. You can go on someone's social media and see photos of them and if you're chatting to them before meeting up, you're probably doing so on a device that is capable of taking and sending a photograph so there's more likelihood that you'll be asked to do that. I'm kinda the opposite to you, I photograph pretty well... certainly in comparison to how I actually look. I have sort of 'neanderthal' physical features: sloping forehead, underbite, bulbous nose, small deep-set eyes but these are all things that I can turn my head in a certain direction and you can't tell, and of course the things you mention 'looks/moves/acts/eye contact' that you only get in person. That said I still hate being photographed.

No I'm paraphrasing of course, but basically a lot of responses, not all but certainly a lot and not just on this thread make the argument that 'there's no such thing as attractive/unattractive, you're wrong to think your lack of success in dating has anything to do with how you look' and so on... which is just a more eloquent way of saying 'get over it'.

I don't have any advice for the OP. Honestly from what he says he probably does a better job than I do of projecting confidence. It is possible he's exaggerating how successful and confident he is to try and place all the blame for his difficulties on appearance, but that would be an assumption about someone I don't know. I'm not sure I see an attitude of 'all you in relationships must be attractive and successful and have it easy', case in point I have actually been in a relationship (one that left me feeling worse rather than better about myself but that's a story for another day) but it seems as though people are reacting as though that's what they infer. There's a lot of butting heads and assuming people who don't totally sympathise have extreme and inflexible versions of their opinions, just like every Internet debate ever. I do assume though that the op posts here in the same way I do and I imagine a lot of people, where the anonymous nature of a forum gives people the opportunity to vent their worst fears about yourself, things you wouldn't ever put out into your own social circle. I don't think he is telling everyone he meets irl how hard he has it in dating. I don't know if there's much understanding, the general voice of the people here or whenever someone mentions being ugly as thing that's causing them to struggle and getting them down is usually just 'get over it', but like I say, this is a far better place for someone to air these feelings than their own social group.

I've reread it and I really am struggling to comprehend how I could have interpreted it any other way. You suggested, or seemed to be suggesting that other than maybe one or two broad personal preferences (in your case, a man who has an clean cut look and is taller that you) physical appearance is irrelevant to whether you feel chemistry and attraction. I don't doubt that's an accurate description of you... If that is what you meant, but I don't think it's true for the vast majority of people. Attraction may be complex and subjective, not 100% based on physical features and not just simply a binary yes/no filter that determines who might be worth looking at more closely; but it doesn't mean that everyone is equally likely to be found attractive. For some people it's going to take a lot longer than others for them to eventually meet someone who says 'yes' when asked out, and if you're one of those people then the dating scene is a lot more demoralising than it would be for the average person. It seems sometimes that people disbelieve that you could be having a hard time meeting someone and give it the old 'you're just not trying hard enough' or act like being one of those people who can go years before even getting a 'maybe' shouldn't affect your confidence.