Carnatic

Hehe, back luck you two, shame you only know each other off t'internet. I was thinking if only everyone we come accross in our everyday lives was like the people here on enotalone those of us who as having trouble finding partners wouldn't find it so difficult. Guess we'd best spend more time getting under people's skins.

Really? I've been looking for the right girl for ages and I always hope I might bump into her in a bar... am I looking in the wrong places? (I'm in plenty of societies and the like too but I get much more variety in bars) Back to the looking for a guy just for a fling. I'm not entirely sure how he would behave having never had a fling myself or been the kind of guy who wants a fling. But Batya has a point that if it's just a fling then he might not want to be particularly romantic, and if he does it might just be cheap tactics to get into your pants. It is true that a fair number of guys I know only feign being romantic to get laid. I'm assuming you want a guy with a good personality too and if you go on any dates you want them to be genuine, even if it is just a fling I'm assuming you don't just want sex as you mentioned doing other things together and you probably don't want to just be a conquest to him. Probably best that you're striaght up with the guy from the start, find a guy who will actually enjoy the relationship outside of just the sex and let him know what you want from the relationship and how long it will last.

Yes definitely, I love it when girls do just that to me. We can't really tell any other way (with the exception of a few experienced individuals), maybe because we're all stupid, perhaps also because we not used to being approached, we receive no advice when we're growing up of how to tell if a girl is interested in us other that just going up to her and finding out directly. He might be a little taken aback how to approach it depends on what judgement you make of him before you approach him, does he look like he'll be fairly shy and you have to be take the edge off the shock of being approached by a girl by feigning a bit of shyness yourself or will he be the kind of guy who you can just be out with it with... as it were.

Lacoste... there's another company that has totally different images for it's aftershave line and it's fashion line.

Well most guys would probably be bowled over that you'd approached them, it doesn't often happen that way round. Don't be vague or subtle about your attraction, make it quite obvious you're interested in him. I'm a bit of an extreme case in point but I wouldn't make the connection that a girl might be interested in me unless she came over and stuck her tongue down my throat... and even then I'd be telling myself it wasn't interest. Most guys aren't that bad but we still need something concrete to go on, especially as we aren't used to being approached by girls. And if you're not after a long term relationship then make that clear from the start, some women make the mistake of assuming we're all players who won't be hurt if the girl says at a later date all she wanted was to fool around. I'm surprised you slipped guys your number and still got nothing... even I would be considering calling... Actually scrub that, a girl once wrote a number down on a piece of card and gave it to me and I didn't ring it... but she was being vague, she didn't say it was her number, or that I should ring it... so yeah, be obvious

I wear Burberry Touch... just to say that Burberry aftershave is nice aftershave and does not go along with the general image that Burberry clothes have

Well I don't want to get at her too much for not looking past a guy's appearance as I only know of the one guy she says approached her and he sounds like a bit of a jerk, maybe they're all like that, she sounds more infuriated with these guys than what I would expect was just down to percieved lack of attractiveness. But when you say guys that approach you are unattractive that isn't what will affect their standards, so that isn't important. What is important is how attractive they think they are, a guy who has the balls to approach a girl shouting 'hey hey' and then proceed to openly ogle her body while taking to you clearly thinks he's attractive, ergo he will feel attractive girls are on his level. Heterosexual guys are notoriously bad at judging our own (or other guys') attractiveness. We just can't tell; a lot of guys like me just simply say 'I have no idea how attractive I am', some guys judge based on how they get on with other guys, a guy who is unpopular will assume he's ugly and a guy who is popular will assume he's good looking, but of course this isn't the case 'cos us guys don't base popularity on looks... as we can't tell.

Many interesting views on attractiveness... it seems to me that the people who find themselves attractive worry about it less. This makes sense, finding yourself attractive kind of means you don't worry about it. I don't find myself especially attractive, I don't worry about it a lot but enough to give two shakes about what I am wearing and how I do my hair... I'm about average. So I don't know how attractive anyone here is, but what comes accross is how attractive you all find yourselves. That's what's most important to you, no matter how well you fulfil classic signs of good looks some people will still find you unattractive (I find Kylie Minogue quite unattractive, she's too pointy ) and of course no matter how much you fulfil classic signs of ugliness, some will still find you gorgeous, and that's without them adding to that what personality you may have. So I think every 'ugly' guy even if he's going to get rejected anyway should be allowed the opportunity to tell himself he's good looking and approach a girl confident of that fact... that's what I do anyway and no-one's actually told me I'm ugly in a while.

We seem to have it all the time, don't worry I take it in, the fact that people might have opinions of me that annoy me doesn't make me want to react to it in a way that might put girls off.

Interesting stuff, I've only had the most minor change in the way I look, and that was more a fashion thing, I have noticed the difference in the way people behave towards you though. Can't say I resent it. I should make an extra comment in case anyone thinks I'm trying to kick up a flame war. Hopelesslee's comment wasn't really inflammatory, it just made me want to make that point as it reminded me how much it annoys me when someone with whom I'm discussing a girl we might have seen dismisses her as boring, nothing between the ears just because she is attractive. I value looks in a girl, I also value other things and I'm aware that other people value different things; and that some don't value looks at all. It just gets to me a little when people take the moral high ground and assume that becuase I value looks then I am shallow and materialistic.

I take exception to that comment, my argument before was that being attracted to physcially attractive women does not make a man superficial (or vice versa). I agree with the rest of what you say about different people wanting different things for different reasons; it just annoys me somewhat when guys who look only at a girl's personality and totally disregard the way she looks (and vice versa) take the moral high ground and seem to talk to the rest of us as though they are better than everyone else (I'm not saying you are one of these people, your comment just seemed to support that view) Anyone who values physical appearance in the sex they are attracted to can also and probably will also look at a whole host of other things, none of these methods of sexual selection are better or worse than any other, but somehow physical attractiveness seems to be endlessly villified.

I prefer girls who I would describe as 'cute'... just seems less intimidating. The word 'beautiful' doesn't tend to get used for guys, but 'hot', 'sexy' and 'gorgeous' do... not usually when referring to me though, the most I normally get is 'cute' which I take as a complement, but one which means I look nice and approachable, not necessarily physically attractive though.

mmm yes, great quality, I love it when girls have infectious smiles.

That's funny, but it's tongue in cheek. Yeah girl's are complex and difficult to understand but it's not quite that bad. Amore is right, it's about balance, women can seem to swing between extremes but if you can get that balance just right then all will be gravy.

I would probably say those guys are if anything shallower than the guy who simply goes for who he finds attractive... I certainly wouldn't want to assume a girl who I didn't find attractive would be grateful for my attention. I see guys do that all the time, it makes me uncomfortable. I've even had friends suggest to me that I should do that, but I don't want to go that low.

I believe it's because as much as we all like to bleat on about how we are creatures of reason, that we have overcome primordial urges, we haven't. In days gone by the characteristics that made someone physically attractive tied in with those that made them most likely to produce healthy offspring (some such as a well built man or woman with childbearing hips obviously so, some less obviously) and to ensure that we only reproduced to produce healthy children with these individuals our bodies were hardwired such that sexual satisfaction depended on us being physically attracted to our partner. Things have come on since then, survival of children depends on so much else now and the old characteristics that determined physical attractiveness are no longer that relevant. But society changes fast, and evolution is slow, so there isn't much chance of that changing. Just as many other people I think this idea of a few characteristics that seem arbitrary when we try to be logical about it is quite unfair to those of us that haven't been blessed with such characteristics. But I don't blame anyone for wanting to be physically attracted to a partner, it's not malice, shallowness or even ignorance and so say it was wrong would make me a hypocrite. It's heartening though that some people are prepared to step back from this attractiveness virtue and look for other, more relevant characteristics, but this is still sexual selection at the end of the day, just on different grounds, someone who has been born with an amiable personality may be just as fortunate as one born with good looks. It's all relative and it does us no good to dwell on the point too much. The point in question being about who is shallow and who deserves the attention they get from the opposite sex. This discussion though is fine, I just wanted to add my own little bit and warn people of the problems if it veers into accusations of shallowness... (which I'm sure it hasn't)

Well someone had to say it, I think most of us noticed that the original poster was in fact very attractive herself, and somewhat artistically photographed. It's one of the heartening things about enotalone that such attractive people can have such down to earth standards.

What I'm trying to say is that things change, you only see yourself as a loser because you are living in a small, insular community (I assume so from the fact you live in the outskirts of a smallish city) where a small group of people decide what goes, and for reasons that have nothing to do with your worth as a person they have deigned you to be an outcast. Even more so because you are teenagers, being outcast for no good reason is a common teen problem. But these people won't always be there, you can move on, and you are young so there is plenty of opportunity to do so, and as people mature, when you are in your 20s, you will find that it's the real qualities you have that count, not just whether you fulfil the sterotypical 'hunk' way of being good looking, or are on a sports team.

Well to be honest, maybe it's alright to give up on girls for a bit. You're still young so if there's no girls in your life that are suitable for you at the moment then no need to rush things... And the key word is 'suitable' there are girls out there that are suitable for you, and while you may think now that you are a total loser, that is only because you are surrounded by young, shallow people who have, for whatever reason decided that you have to be cool and that whatever cool is, you aren't it. But where are you know, are you still at school or are you at some college or university, do you have the option to go somewhere else to study, or work? And if you do, you may find the crowd is different, you may even find that you are in a crowd where if they even care what 'cool' is you might be considered cool (playing the guitar, especially how I said before is a big plus). And if you are popular among friends then you will be just as popular with the girls. I say this because at your age or a little younger I felt exactly how you do (well I wasn't obsessing over sex but I mean I did feel it would be hopeless and I'd never have a girlfriend) I was certainly an outcast, even among my own friends, because I was depressed, or just because I wasn't what everyone thought 'cool' was. But I came to a bigger city to study (you know L.A. may be hte epitome of shallowness, and I've never been to California but I'm sure with being a big city you'd stand more chance of finding the right crowd there than in Sacramento) and tried to start afresh with people who didn't already see me as a loser. And it worked, sort of, I don't have a girlfriend yet, but that's because I'm shy, I am quite popular and I keep being told I really should be picking up a lot more on how girls behave around me because maybe more of them are interested in me than I think, so yeah I'm more optimistic and less bothered about the whole girlfriend thing. So what I'm saying is keep on in there... don't let the opinions of a few people in some suburb of Sacramento ruin your life... there are far more people and far more scenes out there than you can imagine.

Thankfully I think that danger has passed

You know I had previously thought my problem was my standards were too high... I even made a post about it just last week, but reading through this I see my standards are no higher that anyone elses. Just those 8 personality/compatability traits I listed earlier... I do have opinions on other things such as those Kevin T listed, it's just that I might toleratet he things I don't like... If a girl smoked I wouldn't like it, don't know if I'd turn her down because of it. Introvert-extrovert doesn't bother me, just as long as she is nice and she thinks, I guess I like a girl who questions things but i don't know whether I'd turn a girl down on the basis of her not being like that. Physically though is where I cannot pin down a single preference that I have. That's not to say I'm one of these 'opposite-of-shallow' guys who claims they care nothing at all for physical appearance, I do have to find a girl attractive, and what I consider to be attractive is pretty much the same as what most people would say was attractive (weight within a reasonable range, symmetry of facial features and all that), but things like hair colour, height, whether she is a cutie or a sex-bomb mean nothing to me, I like it all the same. And I've had the usual guy discussions with mates over who was attractive and noticed I'd find a much larger range of girls attractive where they would say they didn't fancy a girl because they prefer brunettes/tall girls/sex-bombs etc. I will admit I don't find girls from different ethnic backgrounds to myself attractive... I'm going to try and weasel out of any criticism now and say it's because it's biologically determined (people from different etnicities naturally having different definitions of what attractive is) rather than socially determined... i.e. me being racist. But i know some people will think I'm being closed minded/racist, but I would feel I was hiding something if I didn't add that at the end.

But the fact is everyone else isn't getting laid. When I was 18 I was convinced I was the only person in my year going without sex, becuase those who were getting it were full of it and those that weren't either avoided the issue or pretended they were. Only now I am 23, and after frank discussions with friends do I know that most of the people I am in university with didn't lose their virginity till they were about 20... many, me included are still virgins now... and I certainly see no correlation between those that are most stressed and those that are still virgins. As as for your accusation eriko that we are not treating cynical guitarist like an adult, and that we are not letting him make his own decision... that is not true... the truth is he is having difficulty making the decision himself and came here for advice, which we are giving him... because he asked for it. You cannot simply say that any advice you do not agree with is bad advice.

As far as the guitar goes, playing the guitar can make you cool, but it can also make you more of an outcast it depends how you use it. If you use it like a geekish obsession (this isn't necessarily you this is just an extreme) boring people to death with tales of the time you lost your capo while strumming randomly on the guitar, and spending most of your time sitting in your room alone with it playing heavy metal songs about being alone and wearing entirely black then it certainly won't make girls want you. If you can sing as well as you play up-beat songs that people can dance or at least sway to while being dressed fashionably, leave the guitar alone when you get talking to a girl and have an attractive, approachable personality then it will make you cooler. My advice is; 1) if you don't already do so then learn to sing; 2) the guitar won't make you cool on its own, how you dress and how you behave is still a factor; 3) find a popular bar which has an open mic night and play there; better still keep going back and become a regular.

I am attracted to regional accents.

Oh we don't deny that you are put under this pressure, but if you find it all so repulsive then why on earth would you want to buy into it by hiring a prostitute so you will be accepted. Wouldn't you much rather wait till you can move into a society where you will be accepted, respected and found attractive for the exact same qualities that make you so unsuited to California.