Fighting over money

So my wife and I have been married for almost seven years, and we have polar concepts of how to handle money.

Me: I am very spartan in my lifestyle... barely any purchases, try to save/invest as much as possible, never ask to go out, and am trying to prepare for what the future may hold. Basically, the only expenses I have are gas for my car, grocery once in a while, and my train pass so I can go to work.

Her: she wants to have a good time and enjoy life... does a lot of shopping (though it's always at a thrift store or on sale somewhere), has scrapbooking as a hobby (which can get very expensive), and wants to have some kind of annual vacation.

Here's the background of the situation: her big dream is to own our own house instead of constantly renting an apartment. I want to make that happen by constantly saving, choosing to not spend over giving into a splurge, and trying to grow our nest egg as rapidly as possible. She is always coming home with bags full of stuff that she has bought from some store. I keep telling her that even if it's on sale or has a cheap price, it's a waste of money if you don't really need it. And every time we do the bills, her usual first question is "how much are we putting towards the vacation?" (even when we don't even have any idea where to go), whereas my first impulse is to put any spare cash into our respective IRA's and 401K's. I've grown to almost hate going on these little vacations with her because I know that at the end of the day, it doesn't do us any good. We go out, stay at a hotel for a couple of days, and come home. Woop-dee-freaking-doo. And it's not like we haven't ever gone on vacations... we've gone to Hawaii three times, been to Disneyland twice, Las Vegas three times, and most recently went to San Diego for a second time (on top of the little one/two-nighters peppered throughout).

Aside from saving, our spending is disproportionate: I make about $115K/year and she makes roughly $45K/year. I recently told her that our individual leisure spending should be proportionate to how much we make. Otherwise, it's not really considerate to the other person if you're outspending what you bring into the household. Is this the right way to go about it?

On top of that, there are one more concern: I have end-stage kidney failure and still put in a full 40-hour workweek every week. It could be today, it could be tomorrow, it could be whenever... but there could come a day when I am no longer able to work for medical reasons. I'd like my wife to be covered in case that happens, but she is making it really hard with all these purchases and things that she always wants to do.

And again, my main concern is to save enough so that we can afford a house in the future instead of having to keep living in an apartment. Do you guys think this "proportionate spending" idea is the right approach?

Unfortunately it doesn't matter what we think. If she disagrees nothing we say will matter.

I presume you have already attempted a compromise, yes?

@boltnrun

The "proportionate spending" thing was the compromise. I initially thought she would use her judgment on spending wisely, especially since we both had a very poor upbringing. That obviously didn't work so now I'm trying this. She got all pissed off when I said it, and we haven't talked for two days in a row now. I mean, if you want to live in a cramped box for the rest of eternity let me know. You can't have it both ways. My main thing is wanting to max out the IRA and possibly 401K as early as possible, but there's always the "vacation" question. Now she's saying she is going to go on a vacation on her own at the end of the year, which I believe is just a really lame bluff.

How much does she spend in a month? How much is going into savings and investments?

How often do you go out and do things?

@hollyj

Not sure on the exact amount spent per month, but it's definitely more than what I spend. A good example of this is that she has so many clothes that her whole closet is full and is also using up half of my closet space. I get paid once per week and she gets paid every two weeks, so I try to do the bills with her weekly so that we can take care of debts as soon as possible. But all I hear is "oh we'll do it tomorrow... I don't want to do it now" because we both know it'll end up with us fighting because I'll want to save/invest mostly and she'll want to stash more into the vacation account. I think the worst duration was us not doing the bills for four weeks.

For savings/investments, I try to save at least $500/week into the IRA and 401K each. My main goal right now is to max out my employer match on the 401K before the year's end. But she always wants there to be at least $1000 in the checking account. What reason is there to have $1000 in the checking account? I can live off of maybe $100 for a full week alone. I've gotten it down to $500 in the checking account but even that is too much in my opinion.

As far as going out and doing things... she typically likes to go out once or twice a week. And her idea of going out is to a nice sit-down restaurant and be wined-and-dined more or less. Getting a $5 sandwich at Subway is good enough for me as far as going out is concerned. She also likes to go out to the movies, so I've suggested we get MoviePass to help cut down on that expense. Nope, doesn't want to do it (for whatever reason).

So you are fighting about her spending, you know everything else to a penny, BUT you just have no idea how much she is spending on shopping per month? Come on man. Don't lie.

What is more concerning isn't your wife's desire to lead a reasonably normal life and for the record, nothing you've listed sounds like she is a spender. What is concerning is actually your attitude toward life - miserable, angry, jealous, and depressed. You sound jealous of your wife's clothes for crying out loud.

What is really going on with you?

You should have at least six months worth of living expenses in a saving account, in case of emergencies.

You also have to live your lives. Fun times should be included. All of the money cannot go into investments.

Honestly, this sounds miserable and you sound very inflexible. This goes way beyond being frugal, and sounds miserly.

You are not living a normal life, and your wife is spending well below the average. You better change your ways, or you will soon be alone. Very selfish.

RelProbs what do you enjoy in life? You talk about what she wants "her big dream is to own our own house" and her hobbies and her ideas about vacations. You said your main concern is to cover her expenses after you die, and to buy a house. But think about this, she can and does earn income enough to support herself. If you passed away, she may have to downgrade her lifestyle but she wouldn't be out on the streets without your savings and income. What is it about having a house that will give you pleasure? Will you enjoy furnishing it and decorating it, and doing repairs and maintaining the lawn? Will you want to put money into that? Why don't you have any expenses besides necessities? Don't you enjoy anything?

Her: she wants to have a good time and enjoy life...

Doesn't everybody?

It sounds like you both lean toward opposite ends when it comes to spending money and that is problematic. It's difficult to judge whether she is overspending. Maybe she is. At the very least, she sounds avoidant. But you also sound stingy to the point of being suffocating. Imo, your reasons are valid, but it sounds like you are overdoing it to the point of misery. A thrifty nature does not come as naturally to everyone as it seems to come ro you. However, she should be spending based on how much money SHE makes i.e. within her means.

Also, it is very unwise to have all of your money in the stock market.

You should also have funds invested in fixed income and money which is liquid.

The "proportionate spending" thing was the compromise. I initially thought she would use her judgment on spending wisely, especially since we both had a very poor upbringing..

The problem with the proportionate spending is, it is by your definition.

What does proportionate spending mean to her?

You `thought' she'd use her judgement and from what you've shared she did. It was her judgment . . . and it just so happens to differ from yours. What you actually did was assume she would do it your way. But unfortunately for the both of you, your way is not the right way, it's just a way that is different from hers.

Besides, if the term proportionate isn't spelled out so you can track or measure it, it ends being some ambiguous concept that can be interpreted any way you want. You basically told her to stop spending so much and be more like you and assumed you two were in agreement.

There is not a right or wrong here. These are merely differences. If I could tell you to back 7 years, I would have advised you to consider both your attitudes about money and what it means for both you separately and together.

Why would I suggest that? Because my ex and I divorced over similar reasons (and some more)

I now pay close attention to see if someone shares the same values I do because I know how painfully challenging these things can be.

So, what do you? Compromise, compromise, compromise.

Marriage counseling might help facilitate this.

I had to add, if you refused to go on vacations with me and felt that they were pointless and a waste, I'd go without you too.

I've grown to almost hate going on these little vacations with her because I know that at the end of the day, it doesn't do us any good. We go out, stay at a hotel for a couple of days, and come home. Woop-dee-freaking-doo.

But she always wants there to be at least $1000 in the checking account. What reason is there to have $1000 in the checking account? I can live off of maybe $100 for a full week alone. I've gotten it down to $500 in the checking account but even that is too much in my opinion.

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OK here I disagree with you because it's always good to have immediately liquid cash in case of a major emergency. Maybe 500-1000 is a good amount. It depends on some things like your insurance deductibles and other things that may be your personal risks. I get nervous if I have less than 200 in the checking. I also keep a large amount in a savings account that has no penalty for immediate withdrawal. You just never know what can happen.

Well, let's see, if you're making $115k, you should be taking home about $70k. And since you spend very little, where is YOUR money going? You can't put all your money into retirement, and you've admitted, you're probably not going to make it to retirement, so you should have a down payment for a house already and you should be piling up money for after your death. Something doesn't add up. You should be enjoying yourself while you still can and have some fun. I think your wife may have the right idea. Why did you get married to this woman who is so unlike you?

Anyways, you should stop fighting over money because the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and no, "proportionate spending" is not a valid concept. If she's making $45k, then she's only taking home $30k, so I would think if she's sharing the bills, she would be spending all her money while you wouldn't be. You should loosen up and enjoy life while you can.

Well, let's see, if you're making $115k, you should be taking home about $70k. And since you spend very little, where is YOUR money going? You can't put all your money into retirement, and you've admitted, you're probably not going to make it to retirement, so you should have a down payment for a house already and you should be piling up money for after your death. Something doesn't add up. You should be enjoying yourself while you still can and have some fun. I think your wife may have the right idea. Why did you get married to this woman who is so unlike you?

 

Anyways, you should stop fighting over money because the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and no, "proportionate spending" is not a valid concept. If she's making $45k, then she's only taking home $30k, so I would think if she's sharing the bills, she would be spending all her money while you wouldn't be. You should loosen up and enjoy life while you can.

Yeah, this didn't add up to me either. Between the two of them, they should be able to afford a good down payment for a nice house in a nice area. Paying the mortgage is a better investment than rent if you want to talk money and savings.

It really sounds to me like OP is pretty much hoarding money while making himself and his wife miserable. Who pays bills every week anyway? Of course the wife doesn't want to get into petty arguments every single week over every single dime. I also love how he points out how little he spends. So I guess OP doesn't eat or clothe himself either. I'm guessing the wife takes care of that and then gets thanked for it by arguments from hubby.

OP, you seriously need to adjust your attitude. This is the only life you've got. Don't make it hell. You won't take all that money with you and as you can see, money doesn't make anyone happy. Money is only as good as what it buys. So if your wife wants to go on vacation once a year - that's reasonable and you really need to let yourself enjoy life a little.

Nobody is suggesting that you don't save for retirement, etc. But for the love of..... allow yourself to live too.

Mortgage is not always better than rent - it definitely depends on the market and the ROR you can get in investments, not to mention how long you live in the home.

But agreed, the wife sounds reasonable

You're vague on her spending so I'll be reserved. Having just married a woman who makes substantially more than me, any entitlement I may feel toward personal spending extends to what I'd otherwise spend living comfortably on my own. In other words, if I make $70k, I spend like I make $70k. I don't spend like I'm making my lady's $145k. Any extra or disproportionate amount she wants to throw in should and will go into joint goals such as, quite aptly, a home, not my clothes or movie collection.

You need to make an honest assessment. Is she spending how someone who's not "Spartan" would? Or is she unreasonably compromising your joint goals that you're disproportionately contributing toward? If so, you've gotta prepare for your own future and unfortunately make sure you don't have this woman's spending sinking you once you're not able to work. If not, you've quite simply got to loosen up.

OP, do you have long-term health insurance?

You're vague on her spending so I'll be reserved. Having just married a woman who makes substantially more than me, any entitlement I may feel toward personal spending extends to what I'd otherwise spend living comfortably on my own. In other words, if I make $70k, I spend like I make $70k. I don't spend like I'm making my lady's $145k. Any extra or disproportionate amount she wants to throw in should and will go into joint goals such as, quite aptly, a home.

 

You need to make an honest assessment. Is she spending how someone who's not "Spartan" would? Or is she unreasonably compromising your joint goals that you're disproportionately contributing toward? If so, you've gotta prepare for your own future and unfortunately make sure you don't have this woman's spending sinking you once you're not able to work. If not, you've quite simply got to loosen up.

Congrats on the marriage!!!

Have you thought about seeing a relationship counselor together?

What I hear is you are wanting to make sure your wife gets her dream of a house and a comfortable life. It's especially important to you now, as you have serious health issues and do not know how long you will be able to work for.

You see her as working counter to these goals.

Just as your response to stress may be tightening ship, hers may be to distract herself more with pleasant experiences.

Perhaps the house and security down the road does not mean as much to her and it does for you.

I'd talk to someone. There's love there, it obvious. And you both deserve to get to enjoy your time with each other to the max . It would be so sad if time was wasted on fighting.

I wish you the best.

I wish I could afford a down payment on a house, but we live in California where the down payments can be as high at $100K. That's why I've been so strong about saving money. If I could have afforded a house by now I would've gotten it.

@hollyj

I do have an emergency fund of six months already, aside from the regular saving that I do. That's not a problem at all. But that is for emergencies and we shouldn't count on that money at all.

@Rihannon

My big dream was to be a father and have a family. That won't happen because my kidney disease is genetic, and I have at least a 50% chance of passing it on to any kids I would have. And my wife can't have kids anyway. We tried adoption but then my kidney disease was diagnosed, so all that was put on hold until I get a transplant (which is still years away). We also looked into fertility enhancement (or whatever it's technically called) but it costs around $20K and there's no guarantee that it would work.

@dancingfool

Uhh that's not correct at all. I'm not jealous of anything. More like I wish she wouldn't spend so much on material things.

Yes I do. It's pretty much required to do my nightly dialysis.

Yes I do. It's pretty much required to do my nightly dialysis.

Good God. I'm sorry, that you have to live like this.

RelProbs, I agree with you. Income and spending should be proportionate. In my marriage, it wasn't that way for about 6 months or so, so we made a plan. We have a joint account for bills, then the rest of our money goes into our own, separate accounts. He pays all his bills (his vehicle, his cell phone, his student loans), I pay mine. I make 60% of our income so I pay 60% of the remaining shares bills (mortgage, electric, etc) and he pays the other 40%. Beyond the bills, his money is his to save or spend, as is mine for me. Honestly, it's the best thing we could have done. It holds both of us accountable, when we buy each other a gift, it actually means something because it was the other persons money, not "our" money.

I noticed a few posters roasted you for being so frugal, and I do hope you remember that you're supposed to enjoy life while you're here...but at the same time, you are entitled to your goals. If your wife can't be supportive, the least she can do is not steal your money.

I like Indea's suggestion. I'd just add, perhaps have a mutual savings account where you both put in a fixed amount (a percentage based on your earnings) each month. Then, if you feel like it, you both can put in a smaller amount of money (again, a percentage based on your earnings) on another savings account just for holidays / getaways or any mutual treats.