Commitment issues? (A general discussion)

[notalady]

You remind me of something interesting there. In many cases, the desire to marry could very well be driven by if one wants children. And similarly, whether to prioritise having a LTR (vs maintaining casual arrangements) may also in some ways to do with the lack of desire to have children (therefore lack of desire to prioritise having a LTR, instead prioritising personal freedom and having a career).

[Batya33]

You remind me of something interesting there. Commitment in the sense of marriage could very well be driven by if one wants children. And similarly, whether to prioritise having a LTR (vs maintaining casual arrangements) may also in some ways to do with the lack of desire to have children (therefore lack of desire to prioritise having a LTR).

 

I don't agree. I know of many people who want to be married who are not going to have more children or don't want children. My friend who is almost 70 got married this past summer to her long term boyfriend. I would think also given the bigger challenges for gay people to have children that their desire to have at least the option to marry has little to do with having or wanting children. I think most people who have marriage as a goal simply want the marital commitment with another person. I got married a bit sooner because of our desire to have a family and I wouldn't have married someone who did not want a family but I believe strongly in the marital commitment separate and apart from having children. I will also add that every guy I dated who wanted marriage also wanted to have a family but we never discussed and I never had the impression that they prioritized marriage because it's better if you want a child.

[TMifune]

Marriage is nothing more than a legal and religious commitment. It chances NOTHING and there really isn't any PROS to it.

 

Marriage still means something though what that is may still be in flux.

 

If it didn't there wouldn't be endless stories about how people's partners just suddenly changed into someone different as soon as they got married.

 

Personally I believe that the design for marriage is supposed to make it difficult to get out. It's supposed to leave people with no way out so that they're forced look deeper and find a deeper connection with the person they married.

 

That said, sometimes marriages need to dissolve. Abuse doesn't lead people to deeper understanding of the other, it is destructive of both the person being abused and the one being abusive.

 

But I fear that in an effort to encourage and make it easy for people to get out of truly abusive situations we've swung to far and allowed people to leave for frivolous reasons. And while I'm sure there's arguments people will have for why that's empowering or something, I think in the long run it allows people to run from their own growth. It's poisonous to the people who get left, to society as a whole, and I think in some ways to the person who's trying to get out of the marriage as well.

 

In addition I think that we've opened up marriage and made it easier to get out of one we've made it easier for people to take the seriousness out of the decision to get married. People don't take the step of agreeing to marry as seriously because the support structure isn't necessarily there to make it serious.

 

I don't know. I believe in marriage. I do feel like society as a whole is giving up on it though.

[mhowe]

My brother married last year after a decade of dating, both in their 50s...there will be no kids.

Should my bf ask me, I would likely say yes. If he doesn't, I wouldn't care nor change my commitment to him.

 

Society has changed. Marriage is a choice now, not a social custom that must be adhered to.

[notalady]

Of course I don't think wanting kids is the only reason that people want to get married. It is however a strong motivator for finding a LT partner as well as to get married. For many, they would not be in hurry to get into a LTR or marriage if having children is not a priority or even a consideration. It may be part of the explanation for the lack of desire to get into a LTR by guy friend #1 and the ones who made similar choices.

 

Whereas the ones who are in LTR, living together and choosing not to marry, perhaps they don't value marital commitment and as Fudgie said, logistically it's really making no difference.

[Batya33]

Of course I don't think wanting kids is the only reason that people want to get married. It is however a strong motivator for finding a LT partner as well as to get married. For many, they would not be in hurry to get into a LTR or marriage if having children is not a priority or even a consideration. It may be part of the explanation for the lack of desire to get into a LTR by guy friend #1 and the ones who made similar choices.

 

Whereas the ones who are in LTR, living together and choosing not to marry, perhaps they don't value marital commitment and as Fudgie said, logistically it's really making no difference.

 

I think it is a strong motivator for women of a certain age who want biological children -but only about timing, not desire in general for the marital commitment. I don't agree that "many" would not be motivated to marry if children were not an issue.

[Fudgie]

You remind me of something interesting there. In many cases, the desire to marry could very well be driven by if one wants children. And similarly, whether to prioritise having a LTR (vs maintaining casual arrangements) may also in some ways to do with the lack of desire to have children (therefore lack of desire to prioritise having a LTR, instead prioritising personal freedom and having a career).

 

I am not sure. I've never entertained the idea of dating a man who wanted kids. My boyfriend doesn't want kids and he has always wanted to get married. And I found no shortage of guys who were like that: who wanted marriage but no kids. I don't associate marriage with children, although some do.

 

I have asked my boyfriend why he sees marriage as an end goal. I was just curious. He told me it was for emotional reasons, he wants to share a name with someone, he wants to have a wedding and wear the rings, etc. For him, it's a symbolism of commitment and it's something he has always wanted. It has nothing to do with children.

 

I think Batya is right, it's kind of a separate thing. HOWEVER, I think most people who want children want to get married. For obvious reasons there, security and all of that. Nothing wrong with that.

 

I agree with mhowe, marriage is a choice now. It's not an end goal or a requirement to be seen as a full "adult" in our society. You can certainly forgo it if you so choose.

[kathy679]

Wait, did you time travel from 1800s or something/

 

 

 

Please do tell what you have to lose!!!

 

My freedom for a start! Me personally why do I need to commit to a man when I get all of my needs met without having to get married.

Also I have no fear of being alone and quite like it. Why complicate life with tie ing your self to one person. If it goes wrong it makes it that much harder to leave!

 

And another thing. I don't care about my big day, everyone there.... not for me I'm afraid. Most women may dream of their big wedding and marrying the man of their dreams . That's just not me

[Hollyj]

Because we figured out that "commitment" is now completely worthless, irrelevant and actually quite harmful/unfair from a legal prospective.

 

Marriage is nothing more than a legal and religious commitment. It chances NOTHING and there really isn't any PROS to it.

 

Thank our great legal system and ladies for all this. What did women think was going to happen? When you band over and take advantage of them, in time, that group of people will stop doing whatever got them into that position.

 

Human nature

 

Why would ANY men want to get married at this point is beyond me.....

 

I think you are forgetting that women are 50% of the work force, and many are making more than men.

[DancingFool]

In the first example, it simply sounds like a classic case of not that into you, but convenient for now.

 

As for being together for a long time but no marriage. Can't speak for all cases, but the few guy friends that I have who are in similar relationships, the reason they won't marry is because they are just not confident that they are truly with the right woman. It's very much keeping that door open just in case. So yes, they are monogamous, they are committed to the relationship, they don't cheat, but every so often they vent and it's always because some aspect of the relationship/compatibility is missing and it scares them from making that absolute commitment. It's almost like they have to give up on the idea that they might find that 100% package some day.

 

Overall, my personal experience with men is that they absolutely and categorically want marriage and commitment. Then again, I would not waste time on a guy who is just too busy with his other life and leaves me as on option for when he is bored. See above for don't get involved with someone who is not that into you and just uses you because you are convenient. Busy is a great excuse for stringing someone along and I have to admit that I've used it myself more than once. You may like the person, but just not enough to make them a priority in your life. Nice to have but not a must have kind of a deal.

[missmarple]

It depends on what everyone's definition of commitment is.

I never wanted to get married. I did get married once, mainly because my ex husband and my family and his family wanted us to get married and, also, because, back then, I would like to have kids and would only do that if I was married.

These days, commitment to me means a monogamous relationship. To a friend of mine, who's also divorced and can't have kids, commitment means marriage.

It's difficult for me to relate to the topic (men not wanting to commit) because it hasn't been my experience at all. In every relationship I've had, the guy wanted the 'title' of the relationship long before I was at that point. Maybe it was my choice of partners or just luck, I don't know...but my male friends are also the 'commitment' type...straight and gays alike.

Maybe it has to do with culture, too..I come from a small European country where people are traditional, in general...I mean I don't know any couple who are just 'dating'...they're either in a relationship or not.

In any case, I believe that people should aim for what they want..i.e. you want a relationship, don't start something with someone who is so and so about the idea, hoping he'll change his mind down the road.

[Batya33]

My freedom for a start! Me personally why do I need to commit to a man when I get all of my needs met without having to get married.

Also I have no fear of being alone and quite like it. Why complicate life with tie ing your self to one person. If it goes wrong it makes it that much harder to leave!

 

And another thing. I don't care about my big day, everyone there.... not for me I'm afraid. Most women may dream of their big wedding and marrying the man of their dreams . That's just not me

 

I feel so much freer being married. But that's because I restricted myself to spending my free time doing activities that might lead to marriage! I did not dream of a big party to celebrate my wedding -not after a certain young age that is. It was a big day -the hugest- the most magical - nothing to do with a party. I would not have married if I saw it as "tying" myself to one person.

[kathy679]

Personal pet peeves? Not at all.

 

Just don't tell me that divorce courts, judges and our justice system treats men equally during the divorce.

 

Men have WAY more to lose than women. It's not even a contest.

 

You have a very strange outlook. I do not agree with this

[kathy679]

I feel so much freer being married. But that's because I restricted myself to spending my free time doing activities that might lead to marriage! I did not dream of a big party to celebrate my wedding -not after a certain young age that is. It was a big day -the hugest- the most magical - nothing to do with a party. I would not have married if I saw it as "tying" myself to one person.

 

It works for some people and I totally get that.

I'm glad it works for you. We are all different which is a good thing.

[Batya33]

It works for some people and I totally get that.

I'm glad it works for you. We are all different which is a good thing.

 

Yes definitely. For some it's a self-fulfilling prophecy -if the mindset is that marriage is restrictive then for most people the decision is pre-made. I'd never try to convince someone to get married - I might try to convince them not to if the reasons for marrying were full of red flags. I do find it curious that there's any real connection made between marriage vows and a wedding reception or a diamond or a piece of paper -to me those are irrelevant to the marital commitment other than in the most superficial way (i.e. you have to take vows and get a valid marriage license).

[Ms Darcy]

Please don't turn this into a "men are oppressed" thread. Out of respect for the OP, start a separate thread on that.

 

THANK YOU. I love hearing common sense.

[reinventmyself]

Wait, did you time travel from 1800s or something/

 

Please do tell what you have to lose!!!

 

What?!$&

YOU must be from 1800's or something.

I have alot to lose and often more so than the person I am dating.

And no. . I am not going to list my assets, so don't ask.

 

Your views are often very sexist, DOF!

 

Ooops sorry. . Back on subject!

[saluk]

I think that "living together" has in a big way taken the place of the role marriage was intended to take. It is a sign that these two people are commited to each other, that they should be considered as a unit in legal issues, and that any suitors should knock on another door. It also creates some stability. People move in together these days at about the same level of commitment I think people used to get engaged under the marriage system. For the more conservative mindsets out there, the moving in together and the wedding essentially occur at the same time. All long term commited but not married couples I know live together. I'm know there are exceptions.

 

There are always multiple societies that you can choose to be a part of. General society as a whole, and subgroups of that, and the populations are always changing. The population of men who don't care about marriage may be rising faster than the population of women who don't. There is a lot of marketing to women about marriage that isn't really there for men, so as the general society moves away from marriage, it would make sense for the men to move quicker. And you will always run into issues when two people date who have different affinities of thought about what commitment means and looks like.

[itsallgrand]

As for the original post, I'll share my own experience. My own experience has been knowing more men who are commitment minded than I have ever been. I'm a woman.

Do I have a fear of commitment? It's something I think about, regularly. I do because it takes quite the effort and leap for me to want to ever commit - to anybody.

I have, a few times, live in (common law) more than once. I was committed, the relationship was important to me, it wasn't frivolous or 'just living together'. It was a commitment to each other.

 

But is it so difficult to understand why, anyone, male or female, would not be in a rush to commit? Or even necessarily see a commitment as the end goal?

 

First, there is autonomy. Without commitment, you can put yourself first. Selfishness? I've wondered about that too. But that is a matter of perspective. It's choosing to put oneself as the priority. Not a partner, not another person, and not a relationship. It's not so hard to see the appeal of this. Time to yourself whenever you want. Almost no compromising for someone else. Etc.

 

I can think of a lot of reasons, besides simply having issues, that a person would not want the commitment aspect of a relationship. I believe we can love without commitment. Is it the same? Hell no. But you can really love someone, and them love you.

 

All this said, I like commitment. I think there is a lot you can only experience when there is commitment. And it's good, good stuff. Hard stuff too, but so much worthwhile if it is a working relationship and the people are a good match for each other. Even when they aren't, and maybe that is part of why some people would rather commit to a so-so match/relationship, than to be out of a relationship at all (aka the dreaded single status).

 

Rambling a bit. But I don't find the lack of desire to commit to be mysterious, at all. Sometimes I'm personally in awe of people who, despite getting mostly the crap parts of commitment and so little of the good, keep going at it again and again.

[SoulTaker]

I see it as a case of the men controlling the situation at the expense of the women. The women in these cases don't have an end-game to what they're trying to obtain in dating, and the end-game should have a time limit connected to it.

 

The question is, have they conveyed their feeling to these men? If they haven't, then there's no issue. If they have, and the men have given them a "song and dance act", then it's up to these women to do what's best for them, and not for the men. Do these women want to live their own "life", or someone else's life?

[itsallgrand]

^those women are too busy wondering why the guy won't commit. lol.

[Ms Darcy]

Then there's also the guys I know who have been in very long term relationships (6 years, 8 years and 14 years respectively), two of whom are with very lovely ladies and they definitely want the guy to propose, but no proposal is forthcoming. The guys are happy with where things are.

 

This case seems more like the women have failed themselves. Either, they didn't talk to the men about what their long-term goals were or they weren't strong enough to walk away when it was clear that commitment - as they define it - was not forthcoming.

 

The one who wants more should speak it. If they don't, it's a failure in communication and action.

[Fudgie]

Yeah I definitely don't blame the guy in those situations. No one should assume that marriage will happen. The women NEED to make their needs/desires known, and be prepared to walk away if the men aren't willing or able to meet them.

[mhowe]

At 6, 8 and 14 years....if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[itsallgrand]

It seems insincere to me to say you want marriage but allow a situation where you know your partner does not want it and to stay in it so long.

 

In all my experience with men who were looking for commitment, at various levels as the end goal, they have been rather ruthless in getting it or getting out. Because they know what they want, know they can back it up, and that is what commitment is all about. And they want that person who is going to be able to give it back.

 

That's just my take. I think maybe there is some element of wanting to portray an image of something there. Maybe they think it's not ok to just be fine with a common law situation or a situation that is not marriage. Who knows.