notalady Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 So a male friend told me today that he's been seeing a lady for 3-4 months now, seeing each other once or twice a week, they are only seeing each other but it's not official (ie he doesn't see it as a relationship). He can tell she's wanting more at this stage of dating but he's happy with the way things are and doesn't really want to make it official because quote unquote, work has been crazy and he's very career driven, and frankly think that he'll make a crappy boyfriend right now. And just more generally he likes her and like having the companionship but just doesn't anything serious. I found his views interesting, because when I think about it, I can think of at least 3 other male friends that think along similar lines. These guys are not "players" by any means, nice guys, they value the companionship but just don't want commitment or a serious relationship, full stop. Then there's also the guys I know who have been in very long term relationships (6 years, 8 years and 14 years respectively), two of whom are with very lovely ladies and they definitely want the guy to propose, but no proposal is forthcoming. The guys are happy with where things are. I'm not sure what the take away is, but I just find it fascinating (and curious) that so many men don't want to commit to a lady they like or maybe even love and wonder why that is. Any insights? Link to comment
Movingforward3 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 My feeling is that the rules for dating have changed. Women wanted freedom and choices. They are getting them now. I would look at it as more of a societal shift, more than anything else. Monogamy isn't celebrated anymore. I know it's a bit pessimistic, but the hookup casual culture seems to be very prevalent. Link to comment
mhowe Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 It has nothing to do with monogamy. These couples are monogamous. It has to do with the end game being marriage. More and more people simply don't see it as a goal. I never did, and I am a woman. I have been in long relationships, but didn't want to marry. And until 2 years ago, I didn't want to live full time with my SO. In previous relationship of 8 years, I spent Thurs- Sun nights with him, but spent the other nights at my own place. And often went out without him. Yet me had a monogamous relationship. Link to comment
DoF Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Because we figured out that "commitment" is now completely worthless, irrelevant and actually quite harmful/unfair from a legal prospective. Marriage is nothing more than a legal and religious commitment. It chances NOTHING and there really isn't any PROS to it. Thank our great legal system and ladies for all this. What did women think was going to happen? When you band over and take advantage of them, in time, that group of people will stop doing whatever got them into that position. Human nature Why would ANY men want to get married at this point is beyond me..... Link to comment
notalady Posted October 16, 2015 Author Share Posted October 16, 2015 I get that some people don't want marriage, and as long as both people agreed on it, no problem. But clearly the women in these cases have not agreed to marriage being off the table. Legally, where I am, de facto (ie living together) is treated the same as married, as long as you can prove that you live together as a couple. And these people I know are not religious. So it's not for legal or religious reasons to marry or to not marry. Aside from that, how about the ones that simply don't want to get into a serious relationship? Link to comment
sleepingdonut Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I do agree the dating dynamic has changed, and I see it on both sides of the board. A lot of women don't want monogamous relationships anymore either, at least the younger ones don't. As for the guys, I think part of the fear of commitment could be due to the new economic model. It used to be that a person would get a job with a company, work for that company for most of their life, and have some sense of financial security. It really doesn't work that way anymore, and I believe a lot of men fear they'll be failures in the traditonal gender role of a provider. Even guys that are pulling in decent money know that their jobs can go away really fast these days. I've had a few friends have their salaries drop in half or more. Stability isn't really there, and most men believe women want stability (whether they do or not is another debate that I'll leave alone here). Somewhat tangential, but this is a good talk by Seth Godin on how the economic model is changing: [video=youtube;PJ6eZIYZsyg] ] Also, this is a good Ted Talk by Hanna Rosin that illustrates the larger role women are playing in the economy, and how some men may be struggling to find a purpose now that they feel they are no longer needed: Link to comment
Batya33 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I don't think it's fair to label those people with "commitment issues" just like it's not fair to label the women with "marriage obsessed". The two people who choose to date need to have compatible goals whether that's marriage, long term commitment, casual dating, a fling, etc. If they don't then eventually they part ways or they're unhappy together. Some people have commitment issues I guess but most of the time I think it's simply not wanting to commit to that person, less of the time not wanting to commit in general (and that's not a bad thing or an "issue" it just "is"). He might like/love the person, the companionship, the fun, all of that but simply not place value on an exclusive commitment or marriage -the pros and cons simply balance against it. Perhaps the person with the issue in your examples of the LTR with no proposal is the woman -perhaps she has "commitment issues" since she claims to want marriage yet sticks around for years in a go nowhere relationship (go nowhere in her view since she says she wants a proposal). People who casually date are not players. To me a player is a person who lies/misleads another person in order to get sex by claiming to see potential for a relationship. Link to comment
notalady Posted October 16, 2015 Author Share Posted October 16, 2015 Batya, maybe the title is misleading. I was more curious as to why so many men don't want commitment (whether it's relationship or marriage) and looking for some insight of what people think might be the reason, rather than saying that they have issues. Sure there are women who don't want to commit, but very few that I know of (actually I don't know anyone personally), whereas there are quite a number of guys who take this position. You might be right though, the pros and cons of a commitment vs casual might be pushing them towards casual. Link to comment
Rosti87 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I think there are plenty people who want to commit. It's just not in the traditional way. I too believe that the economic environment has changed how people couple. Unless children are planned I personally don't think marriage is all that important. I think the commitment itself is more important. I don't the length of a commitment is as important as the quality. I'd rather have a live-in relationship of quality for 10 years than a 30 year marriage that was mediocre or unsatisfying. I don't think any of the cited examples (with the exception of probably the first one) are commitment phobic guys. They just view commitments differently. Link to comment
mhowe Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 These men want a committed relationship....they simply don't want marriage. And they don't want a full time, live together situation either. Why? I would guess. Number of reasons....to be free to use their spare time as they choose, to keep finances separate, to enjoy being a couple without turning it into a full time project....family, kids, etc. If the women want marriage, they need to find like minded men. Link to comment
kathy679 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Because we figured out that "commitment" is now completely worthless, irrelevant and actually quite harmful/unfair from a legal prospective. Marriage is nothing more than a legal and religious commitment. It chances NOTHING and there really isn't any PROS to it. Thank our great legal system and ladies for all this. What did women think was going to happen? When you band over and take advantage of them, in time, that group of people will stop doing whatever got them into that position. Human nature Why would ANY men want to get married at this point is beyond me..... Why would any woman want it either? We have a lot to loose aswell Link to comment
Heather Dawn Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I want to marry my boyfriend (and I'm pretty sure a proposal is forthcoming during our Europe trip in March), but only because I want to marry HIM - not because I just want to be married. That said, I think these days, commitment can't be measured by a ring on a finger. We've been together for three-and-a-half years, and even though we're not married yet, I have NO doubt about his commitment to me. It's obvious in everything about our relationship - the way he treats me; the things he does to prepare for OUR future; the fact that I have never, not for one moment, questioned how much he loves me and is devoted to me. So while I do want to get married so that we can share a last name and because I like the security of knowing that should something happen (for example, one of us is hospitalized) we'd have all the appropriate legal rights to make decisions, I do not feel that his commitment to me at this point is any less than if we'd already married. Link to comment
Fudgie Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I see these situations as being quite different. Guy #1, with the woman he's been seeing a couple times a week for a few months, just isn't prioritizing her. Whether that has to do with her or his own life/thoughts, I don't know, but it's clear she's not a priority. He's happy with the companionship and the sex (if they are having it) but he doesn't want her to be a fixture in his life. The other guys (in LTRs, but not married), I do see them as committed but they just don't want marriage. Are they living with the women? These days, there are fewer logistical reasons to get married than there were in the past. Notice, I said logistical, not personal/emotional, because many people, men and women, still want to get married for those. But I'm saying, in many states, you can still be designated each other's next of kin and share insurance without getting married. You can live together without being married without being looked down upon or shunned. I don't doubt that these men who are with these women long term love and are committed to the women in the sense that they want to be with them and are monogamous, but they just don't want to get married. There's nothing right/wrong about that, it's just their choice. However, it's up to the women to decide if they are willing to stick it out. Personally, I am quite ambivalent about marriage. I don't want children at all and I don't like the idea of alimony/martial property. I'm just not really sure there. The guy I am with, he definitely wants marriage in his future so if he and I work out, I would have to make a choice there as he wouldn't accept a permanent live-in, not-married situation. But I'm not concerning myself with that now....way, way, way too far in the future. As for the hook-up culture, yes, it's big. I think it's gross, personally. I haven't participated and I wouldn't date a guy who has. I have no interest in dating/committing to a man who has had his fill of cheap casual sex and is now trying out monogamy. I've never found a shortage of men who were looking for long-term/marriage and I think part of that is because I always ruled out men who had a history of promiscuity. Link to comment
DoF Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 These men want a committed relationship....they simply don't want marriage. And they don't want a full time, live together situation either. Why? I would guess. Number of reasons....to be free to use their spare time as they choose, to keep finances separate, to enjoy being a couple without turning it into a full time project....family, kids, etc. If the women want marriage, they need to find like minded men. PLENTY of men out there that do all of the above WITHOUT being married. Marriage = legal commitment. But at the end of the day, it's still a relationship. Whatever that is BEFORE marriage will be the same, act of marriage does not and WILL not change that. Link to comment
DoF Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Why would any woman want it either? We have a lot to loose aswell Wait, did you time travel from 1800s or something/ Please do tell what you have to lose!!! Link to comment
DoF Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Smart Unfortunately not every woman is like you. Link to comment
mhowe Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 What would I have to lose? My financial security, my freedom to live as I choose without compromise. In this day and age....men and women sacrifice the same things in order to marry. Link to comment
Fudgie Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I don't believe in the idea of marital property and I don't like the idea of alimony. I don't want to receive it or give it. I've never really looked forward to the idea of having a wedding either. Divorce can really suck for both sides. I also really like my last name. I am just super ambivalent. So yes, depending on the situation, marriage can be risky for women as well as men. Link to comment
Batya33 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I never saw marriage as a ring on my finger or a piece of paper nor would I have married someone who felt that way about marriage. Yes, we are just as committed as before we were married but the commitment is enhanced and different - of course taking marital vows does not have to change a relationship or commitment but it did for us, and I have heard of it changing the commitment and relationship for many others. Having said that one of the couples I know who truly inspires me in matters of commitment, long term love and caring, communication -are not married and likely never will be (he would get married, she is reluctant having been married before but he is totally fine with being committed and having their family together). The fact that they are not married doesn't affect my opinion of their level of commitment in the least. Link to comment
DoF Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 What would I have to lose? My financial security, my freedom to live as I choose without compromise. In this day and age....men and women sacrifice the same things in order to marry. I think you forgot the little thing called "complete injustice of law towards men". Link to comment
sleepingdonut Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Please don't turn this into a "men are oppressed" thread. Out of respect for the OP, start a separate thread on that. Link to comment
mhowe Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I am not going to engage in your personal pet peeves DoF. My opinion on what I have to lose should I marry is based on my facts, not your prejudices. I would receive no preferential treatment at the hands of the court system,. Link to comment
Fudgie Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Going back on topic... I don't think there is anything wrong with a man/woman not wanting marriage. NO ONE should assume that marriage will happen in a relationship or that it's someone's end goal. It is not. It used to be that everyone strived for marriage but that's not how it is anymore. Both men and women need to make their desires known in the relationship, instead of hoping, wishing, or waiting around for a ring. Link to comment
DoF Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I am not going to engage in your personal pet peeves DoF. Personal pet peeves? Not at all. Just don't tell me that divorce courts, judges and our justice system treats men equally during the divorce. Men have WAY more to lose than women. It's not even a contest. Link to comment
Capricorn3 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Please don't turn this into a "men are oppressed" thread. Out of respect for the OP, start a separate thread on that. Yes please. Please stay on topic peeps. Link to comment
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