Prufrock06

Kudos on handling the situation in probably the most rational, even-handed and certainly inspiring way possible, FoxLocke! I can't believe fourth-graders talk like this at their age, that they know this vocabulary and these words and know how to direct them at other people in such a cruel, seemingly calculated way!! Granted, their use of the term gay as adjective is certainly taken from much of their surrounding culture (the media, the way they were raised, etc. etc.) but still....yikes... And the funny thing is, I still deal with this kind of ignorance on a semi-regular basis -- and perhaps the more troubling thing is that it comes from people on or around my own age; people considered to be mature adults but who clearly aren't in certain aspects. Just the other week I was at a party with a friend and this other guy there was talking about how so-and-so was so gay because he never went out and did anything, or some joke he heard was so gay. So gay, so gay, so gay, so gay -- ARRRGHHHHH!!! And it's not just him throwing around that term to describe nearly everything weird and foreign, it's so many others as well! Of course, I never told this person he was in the company of a gay guy (and boy, would I have liked to have seen his face if I did!) because I knew the exact answer I would get, which is the answer you hear all the time: "Well, I'm sorry man. If I'd have known, I wouldn't have said it." As if it's okay to use such ignorant terminology when no one fitting that description is around; as if that makes it more permissible because there are no homosexuals in the room. If a tree falls down in the woods and there's no one to hear it -- it still makes a sound. The same thing goes for ignorance: if you say ignorant, homophobic remarks and there are no homosexuals around to hear them, you're still an ignorant homophobe. It frustrates me too -- but I'm really perplexed as to how to handle the situation. Since it seems like these kinds of people are really juvenile in mind and behavior, maybe the best approach is to sit down and talk to them the same way you did those fourth-graders. But then a lot of these people aren't even worth the time of day; not worth the energy and effort and civility it takes to try and have an honest, meaningful dialogue about how offensive this kind of talk and behavior is.

pianoguy, Yeah, I agree. It seems like a lot of decent people flock here but nowhere else, haha. I too am having difficulty finding places other than this forum to communicate and talk with other gay people around my age. I haven't really been able to find places where people can get together to just talk and chat without this obligation to cyber. If you're looking for places to hook up over the Internet, then those places are a dime a dozen. But if you're looking just to talk with people and meet people and share thoughts and ideas, etc. without this looming pressure of cyber sex, then I really don't have any more information than you do. One thing I can think of is to see if your online instant messaging service hosts chat rooms. I know that AOL used to do so a while back but I'm not sure if they do that now. Another option is link removed -- I go there every once in a while to check out some articles and advice columns. Not all of it seems 100 percent genuine, but it's an interesting resource nonetheless. Also, they do have a chat area, but I've never gone into it. Not sure if you have to just create a profile (which is free) or register (which isn't). Anyway, that might be worth looking into. If you ever feel the need to chat or something, don't hesitate to drop me a message! And keep us posted if you come accross any interesting, worthwhile places.

emma, mgirl, FoxLock and Jinx, Thanks for much for your advice! I ended up messaging him just to see how things were going and if he'd maybe want to catch up in person sometime soon when I was back in town from school. He wrote back saying that would be cool and that we could meet up at a gay bar/club or someplace "low-key" like a restaurant or a coffee shop. I think I'm going to opt for the former, just so I can have the experience with someone I know without having to go at it alone. I was really kind of excited to hear back from him and hear him bring up the idea of meeting at a gay bar/club -- back in the fall, when I was first thinking about coming out, I always thought that he would be a great person to go to for advice. Maybe I should tell him this? Maybe he'll take it as a compliment? In the interim, I think I'm going to take your advice and maybe just be honest about my "newbie" situation, ask him a few questions until we end up meeting up sometime soon. Hopefully I won't come accross as too clingy or annoying but just as someone with a genuine interest in learning the ropes? Most gay guys would be happy to take someone under their wing, right? I know I would.

Agreed. I don't think you're fooling yourself -- it seems like he really has a thing for you but just wants to take things slowly, to invest more time in your relationship Though I can't speak for this person, from the way you describe him I would guess that he's much more interested in sparking a real relationship with you than just a superficial fling. Count yourself lucky that you've found a guy who is genuinely interested in an emotional connection with you instead of just a purely physical one. And mgirl's right: he may just be kind of shy about expressing how much he fancies you to your face this early in the game. I know I would be a bit shy -- give him a little more time in that regard. But his actions definitely shout that he fancies you. Absolutely.

I'm in this kind of weird limbo right now where I'm comfortable enough with myself and my sexuality that I'm entertaining the idea of being social and hopefully start dating (not too sure how good I'll be at it, but I'll never know if I don't try, right?). But the only problem is: I really don't have any gay friends to speak of. I've never been good at going to bars and other such places solo and I've always been more social if I'm around a group of people I can fall back on if things get rough, so I feel like I'd need a core group of gay friends to be around as a means of getting myself out there. As I've said before, other than you kind people on this forum, there's really no one I know that I can talk to about these feelings and issues as if I were on the same page with them, instead of my straight friends trying to give me advice and/or encouragement through this weird, invisible 'filter' of sorts. I'm kind of upset with myself right now because I know I'm really the one to blame for this current position. Playing it straight for the past ten years has done two things: 1) it's given me a lot of straight friends (and don't get me wrong, they're all guys and girls that I love to death) and 2) given me this weird kind of phobia towards other gay guys that I've only recently started to get over since coming out to myself. The latter, I think, has hurt me the most because now I'm so eager and willing to make friends with gay guys but instead of me being worried about them seeing through my "straight mask" and pointing me out as gay, I'm worried that they won't want my company or won't want to hang out with me for numerous paranoid reasons: I'm too new at being gay for a friendship to be worthwhile, I'm not stereotypically gay enough, etc. etc. Of course, I'm sure this doesn't sound like a big deal to whoever's reading this, but in my head and in my emotions, it's a lot less trivial and a lot more of a concern than it sounds typed out here. Though I have recently joined a GLBT group at the college I go to, I've yet to become close friends with any of the guys there. I go to the weekly meetings and sometimes go to the after party and have a few drinks and talk to some people. I guess I just need some more time to get to know these people but again, I've got this same concern about me being a graduate student and not "cool" enough to hang around undergrads. The one guy I know fairly well whose gay was a guy who lived next door to me freshman year of college. He and I got along pretty well but after freshman year when our living situation changed, we didn't really talk much unless we were saying hi in passing at the building where we had classes. I had a crush on him and didn't know he was gay until a year after we'd parted ways -- he was somewhat intstrumental in helping me come to terms with my sexuality, but I've never told him any of this. Now he lives in my area when I'm home from college and we've talked in spare IM conversations or little messages, just the standard hey, how are things going, etc. etc. He knows I'm gay and he's said that he's excited. I really want to keep in touch with him and maybe see if he wants to catch up sometime for lunch or something like that, but I'm worried that he'll think I'm just trying to date him because I'm, again, a "newbie" or he'll think I'm honing in on him just because he's gay and I need some friends. Plus, it also seems from the look of things (namely his MySpace) that he's got a lot of gay friends that he's close with and I wonder, what does he need one more for, right? And I guess I have these thoughts that maybe he'll be open enough to invite me out sometime with his boyfriend and his friends just to hang out or go to a bar or something. But again, I don't want to "invite myself" (even though, in a way, I do) because it wouldn't be the polite thing to do. But I feel like if I re-kindled this friendship I had with him, it would be a great way of becoming social with other gay guys around my age and (maybe? hopefully?) meeting someone to strike a friendship with of my own or, dare I say, a relationship? So anyway, I guess I'm wondering what advice you all have as to how I should handle this situation, any suggestions on how to make friends with my peers (not that I'd imagine it's any different than making straight friends) or any advice on how to approach my friend, how to keep in communication with him, etc. (if you even think I should). Thanks so much for reading through this! I appreciate it and I hate unloading all this onto you sometimes, but I know deep down that I always get worthwhile advice and thoughts.

Agree 100 percent with novaseeker here -- The best thing would be to start integrating yourself more into social circles in which you know for a fact that the people you are dealing with are on the same page, sexually speaking, as you are. I know from personal experience in enduring an impossible crush that finding other social outlets helps not only with the feelings of frustration at being attracted to straight (read: off-limits) guys, but you'll also find that once you have these kinds of groups and people to pal around with, the friendship you have with this guy won't suffer as much. It'll be easier to enjoy the friendship you have with him without having to keep this desire for physical and emotional interraction bottled up all the time. Regardless of whether your boyfriends (both past and future) are/were closeted, breakups are always going to be difficult things to manage. But as soon as you feel comfortable getting back onto the dating scene, and you set your sights on guys who a) you know for certain are gay and b) are proud and accepting of who they are with themselves and their close family/friends, you'll find it very difficult to repeat the certainly scarring scenario you describe in your post.

Like everyone else, I agree that she's doing more than just flirting with you. However, whatever you decide to do, I'd be very cautious about how you handle it. My honest opinion: she's married -- so until she's divorced or separated she's off limits, regardless of the fact that she's the one making the advances. I understand if the affection is really flattering, but these kinds of situations, when a spouse is involved, are always more stressful and problematic than they're worth.

Ugh. Encounters with these type of folks are always troubling. It reminds me of this past holiday with the family, where certain family members had no problem throwing around the F-word (not that one -- the one that also means a bundle of sticks) and talking about stereotypes and generalizations as if they were scientific data instead of just so much socio-religious BS. Regardless of the fact that I'm gay and in their presense (which they have no idea of), why would you even talk about people like that in the first place? It's like using the N-word to describe African-Americans even if there are no African-Americans around, or any other racial/sexual/cultural slur. It's just really inexcusable behavior, regardless of the company being kept. Nothing pisses me off more than ignorance, and it seems the same can be said of you, FoxLocke. In which case, I would say what my dad used to say to me when I was younger: "If it bothers you, ignore it." Of course, you're in a good position because you're not dealing with "real" people per se (real people being those you physically see and interract with on a regular basis in your daily life) but only people on a message board -- in which case you have a wide range of options from which to choose, many of which have already been suggested in other posts. Making an alias might be a good idea, if you're feeling somewhat vindictive and in the mood to take a swat at a hornets' nest. Of course, just dropping out of the American Idol message boards and/or joining a new one would be best -- but whose to say you wouldn't encounter the same kind of ignorance elsewhere? My vote, since these are just posters on an American Idol board and should really only be there to talk about American Idol, would be to let this discussion die down and try and get back to as "normal" a conversation as possible, especially if you want to remain on the board and friends with these posters. Of course, if you consider some of the posters on this board to be real good friends of yours, people you care about to some degree, then perhaps you should treat them like you would a friend: send some of them a private message and let them know how hurt you were by what they said, regardless of their opinion on the subject, and if they wouldn't mind keeping such talk to themselves and get back to the business of talking about other, less heated things. Telling them you're gay through a private message or something might be less of a burden considering the relative anonymity of the Internet. And if you're considering telling them to get lost anyway, what's the harm in letting them know your true colors before giving them the big middle finger? Plus, you could always look at it as more practice for coming out to people closer to you!

That's great that you're thinking about coming out to some of your friends soon! My guess is that if this group of friends are close to you, and you are close to them, they won't "leave" you over something as silly as your sexuality. And yeah, it might be "uncomfortable and odd" for that co-worker of yours to give you "dirty looks of disgust" -- but in the end, wouldn't you rather have him be the one whose uncomfortable with you instead of you having to be the one uncomfortable with him? Of course, I think the best thing to do would be to come to your friends before you do to this co-worker (if you even decide to do so -- and why even dignify him with this information if he seems to act like such a jerk about homosexuals anyway?) If you'd rather not make a "spectacle" out of it (which I know I hate doing when coming out to people -- avoiding spectacle is one of the reasons why I didn't come out to my extended family over the holidays) then maybe wait until they bring up the subject of girls or dating or straight clubs (which, from your posts, seems like they do quite a lot) and then just casually mention that, "you know what, to be honest with you guys, I think I'm interested in dating guys. Girls are great, but they're just not what I'm physically and emotionally interested in." Or something to that effect -- something that would be much more casual than just dropping the "I'm gay" bomb. Your mom knows you're gay, right? Are you comfortable asking her for some advice or is it like the relationship between me and my mother, where my homosexuality is something that we don't talk about because it makes her too "emotional"? She might be able to help you out, if your relationship with her is a good one. I feel like the more nonchalantly you treat this news, the less you emphasize it as BREAKING NEWS and treat it more as just one little thing, like "Oh, I didn't know ThaKid likes anchovies on his pizza" or something like that, the easier it will be for both you to tell them the truth and for them to accept you (if they even have a hard time accepting you, which they very well might not). Coming out to friends can be rough -- take it from me, I did it a few months ago -- but you'll find that they are often times the easiest group of people to come out to. And once you've done it and you feel some of that invisible stress lift off you, it's an amazing feeling Best of luck, ThaKid! Let us know how things turn out!

Good points! I still think, though, that there is a fundamental difference in the idea of vanity between heterosexual and homosexual males. I think these issues of vanity and superficiality and much more potent within homosexual circles than in heterosexual ones, and are much more toxic and problematic fo the former instead of the latter. Though a lot of heterosexual males (some of them friends of mine) worry about these issues of attractiveness and looking good I would still bank on it being much more of a problem for gay males than for straight ones -- probably given my own personal experience with this issue. I was reading this article on link removed about gay men and body images the other day. Of course, I take all the articles on this page with a grain of salt, considering that sometimes this website seems to support in many ways the same stereotypes that we have been criticizing here on this board. Still, the one key sentence in the article that stuck out for me was this: "I would add that another major problem with the desire of gay men to be muscular is the belief, accurate or otherwise, that gays have to physically resemble the men they're trying to attract." For the sake of this thread, let's substitute "muscular" with whatever state of physical "perfection" we're trying to achieve. I think this idea does two things: first, it illustrates the difference between vanity and perfection in straight males and gay ones. Gay males are attracted to and looking for a member of the same sex -- thus, it seems to me there is a higher level of comparison and envy from one gay male body to another. Of course, a straight male can't really physically compare himself to a woman because their bodies are fundamentally different. He can compare himself to other straight males around him, but at the end of the day, these fellow straight males are not the ones that he's trying to get together with. So I think the fact that we're dealing with comparisons and issues between same sexes and not opposite ones makes this issue of vanity and "looking your best" a bit more tricky for the gay community. Second point: this idea points out that not all gay men are interested in the same physical type of guy. Some guys like big, muscular men, other guys like huge hairy bears, other guys (like me) prefer average guys. To me personally, the idea of physical perfection, of muscles that look like sculpted marble, are a real turn-off. But again, we also need to realize that we're dealing with individual tastes here as well. It's kind of like the light at the end of the tunnel -- that there is essentially someone out there who would be interested in us the way we are. We assume that we need to be physically fit, we always need to look our best, because this is what we need to be in order to attract these same guys with these same qualities. But I'm sure there are your stereotypical Abercrombie model-types out there who are looking for just an average guy and not necessarily someone who looks as pefect as they do. Then again, the tricky part is what this says about us as individual gay men and what we seek in another guy -- are we looking for perfection even at the same time that we decry others for expecting it from us? Sometimes I feel a bit hypocritical for drooling over these "ideal" guys that I see walking around or on television, etc. even though I come here to these boards and write about how average I am and how average guys are probably the best guys to go with. It's definitely a tricky situation. Anyway, for what it's worth, the article's an interesting read. Probably makes better sense than anything I just rambled about here. Here's the link: link removed

You see what you've done, Jinx? It's like a pack of rabid wolves here fighting over the last piece of meat. That's how serious this gaydar business -- or lack of -- really is, haha! Anyway, FoxLocke, I'm sure we can come to some sort of sharing agreement. Or at the very least work on duplicating and modifying this existing gaydar to make a much more powerful, much more accurate device! Mwahahaha!

Speaking about gay men and vanity and stereotypes, Yesterday morning I was watching this show on MTV (I know, I know, what a great channel to get a dose of reality from, right?) called "Next." For those who aren't aware, the premise of the show is that there's this person who's looking for someone to date/be in a relationship with -- there's a bus full of five candidates who each get a turn with the contestant in order to see which person he or she gels best with. If the contestant doesn't like one of the candidates for any particular reason, he or she can say "NEXT!" and that person's out of the game. So anyway, it just so happened that the contestant on this particular show was gay. Of course, I'm hooked immediately, not just because some of these guys are cute, but because I'm interested to see how this episode works out in light of the issues we've been discussing here in this thread. So one candiate comes out, the contestant shakes his hand, says, "Wow, you've got a weak handshake. NEXT!" Bam -- that guy's out of the running. Then, with another contestant who wasn't out to all his family members, the guy said "NEXT!" again. And so on and so on. Someone wasn't a strict vegetarian -- "NEXT!" And I remember getting really upset and angry even at what was going on. I mean, a weak handshake?!? Is that really such an important criteria for establishing even a date? I couldn't believe it! The candidate didn't even take enough time to get to know the person before giving him the boot -- and some of them seemed like decent guys too! I guess I was just disgusted at how easily pop culture is pandering to these stereotypes still. I mean, MTV is supposed to be associated with the younger generations, right? And you'd think that they would recognize that not all gay men are flamboyant and vain and drama queens who call each other "female dogs" and "hoes" when they get booted off by the contestant? But even still, this idea of gay men as vain and superficial continues and though it is something I've noticed to a degree in other, heterosexual episodes of this television show, it was nothing as quick and abrupt as it was in this particular instance, which is why it stuck out for me so much. And when the five contestants would introduce themselves, they would each mention some silly, juvenile remark like, "Hi, I'm so and so, and I'm hung like a brontosaurus" or "Hi, I'm so and so, I do such and such, and this guy won't turn me down because I look corruptible" [he was the younger guy of the bunch]. ARRGHH!!! Of course, that's probably what I get for watching MTV but still...it just really irked me not only because of the message and image it's perpetuating, but it makes me question if that's really the way it is out there in the dating world and whether I can even compete with that kind of nonsense. Then again, how many of us decent, un-superficial people could, regardless of sexual orientation? Are these even the type of people we want to be in a relationship with anyway?

I don't think he did know for certain whether Ennis would give into his advances. At least, there are no clear signs given to the audience that Ennis feels for Jack in a similar way, I don't think, until after their relationship is consummated. I feel like Jack took just as much of a risk that evening in the tent as Ennis did -- although their risks are coming from two different points of view. For Jack, the risk is getting his affections rebuffed and for Ennis the risk is engaging in this relationship that his social and cultural background says is wrong enough that it warrants death (ie. when Ennis's father shows him and his brother the body of the rancher who was living with another rancher and was beaten to death). Ennis seems to have more of an issue with the social pressures than Jack does -- at least, relatively speaking Jack appears more comfortable with his desires and his sexuality to the point where he can actually conceive of a life together with Ennis while Ennis can't ever grasp such an idea. The fact that Ennis gets physical with Jack (in a violent, not sexual sense) shows that he's not ready or even willing to completely embrace his relationship with Jack. As in, there's a point where the reality of what he's doing sets in and he has to reject it, despite the warmth Jack is ready and willing to provide. I guess we could all learn something about taking risks in initiating relationships from Jack, huh? I know I could.

Don't feel bad Kid -- I'm 23 and I've never kissed another guy, let alone been in a relationship. You're not in the "never been" boat alone, my friend. In fact, some of us have been rowing alone for quite some time. But it's good that you're staying positive!

This is exactly why I think relationships and interpersonal connection are so much more important than a purely physical relationship. Hookup culture, or a relationship established on hot bodies and hot sex, though it's certainly an appetizing idea, just doesn't have enough strength to cut it once you start getting older. Our bodies are on the decline from the day we're born and as you get older and you're in a relationship with someone, you want something that will keep the two of you together into your fifties and sixties and seventies and I don't think that something can be found in the realm of the physical and sexual. Granted, sex is an important part of any healthy relationship but if there's nothing else there -- no emotional connection, no romantic love to speak of -- then 9 times out of 10 the relationship is doomed to failure once one or both of the partners start to exhibit the "ravages of time." Which is why I think these questions of superficiality and vanity are so important to talk about, because if this kind of behavior is so entrenched in someone's psyche that he can't let go of it when he's found something good, something worth holding onto -- that's when it really starts to become problematic. So the answer to your question, mgirl, is this: they become Dirty Old Men.

I agree with Jinx on this, From the sound of it, there's a lot of potential here for you to strike a worthwhile relationship with Girl A. And while it's nice of you to take Girl B's feelings into consideration, I think that not pursuing things with Girl A because of this would do you a greater disservice than the mere inconvenience of potentially hurting Girl B's feelings -- especially if Girl B already has a girlfriend. If Girl B gets mad, she gets mad. You shouldn't have to go around blaming yourself or feeling awful for hurting her feelings just because you see someone and something you want, someone and something that could be great for you, and you want to pursue it. "I just want to take this opportunity to possibly get to know this amazing someone" Go for it!

This is an interesting viewpoint, in theory, but where does it put us GLBT folks in the scheme of things? Are we just tools for other straight people to figure out their lives? Maybe heterosexual people have the purpose of teaching us homosexuals/bisexuals/transexuals about patience and perseverance? I personally don't like the idea of thinking my purpose here on earth is to serve as a warning or a moral parable for other people. I mean, I understand that we each affect other peoples' lives in a variety of different ways -- but that's completely different from saying that we (and by we I mean people like us who talk on this board and deal with this issues almost daily) are here only for the convenience of others, or to serve as pedestrian prophets spreading a message of love and tolerance. I feel like the only way we can get over this hump of the Bible (as well as other religious texts) and homosexuality is to recognize that the Bible is not carved in stone -- it's a fluid text that has been manipulated before and will be manipulated in the future to serve various means/agendas. Of course, I think a lot of the time people don't use this argument is because they feel that saying so will undermine their religious beliefs -- when I feel like the exact opposite is true. Recognizing that the Bible is a text that's more of a guideline to life than an actual intruction manual shouldn't be seen as an opinion that undermines Christianity. Rather, it lets one be free to experience the world without constantly having to look over his or her shoulder, worrying about breaking some silly little millennia-old rule about wearing different clothes or circumcision or whatever and fearing eternal damnation.

Hmm....cute but not too cliche.... Do you talk much with this girl? Are you two friendly with each other, do you know a lot about one another? If not, you might want to start a conversation about some kind of activity, food, entertainment, etc. and then invite her along? Or better yet, find out something she hasn't done yet but she'd like to do, or some experience she's hesitant to try (like a particular type of food or a particular place to go or trip to take) and then invite her out to prove to her how exciting and interesting that something/experience could be. Not too sure how cliche these are, as I've sadly yet to employ such strategies. But hopefully this is some idea of what you're looking for and, if not, will help you brainstorm much better than I could.

Good point -- it's interesting that you talk about the sodomy scene as being awful. That rushed and hurried and somewhat forced (in a physical sense) sex scene was probably the least romantic moment shared between the two of them and I remember being caught off guard while it was happening. But then contrast this with those moments you speak of the next morning, which are indeed very tender and romantic. It seems like the positive aspects of the relationship were focused more on the companionship, the physical closeness, instead of the actual sexual acts themselves (which, oddly enough, are never shown again onscreen for the rest of the movie) You're right in that regard. I guess I just feel that the crisis in these romances in these movies you mentioned aren't constructed around differences or issues of gender (ie. in Titanic, the dilemma wasn't that Jack was a guy and Rose was a girl but that they were from different class sets) whereas here, if the couple in Brokeback was heterosexual, there would be no movie at all because the crisis is solely rooted in the fact that these are two men who are falling in love and not on the fact that one is rich and one is poor, one is black and one is white, etc. etc. Maybe because I'm gay myself, it doesn't seem as that big of a deal if I were a straight viewer going into this movie -- and so as a result I feel there's less at stake in the relationship than someone for whom the idea of homosexual love was not a common thought? I dunno... Agreed.

***Spoilers included in this post*** Okay, Please don't hate me but I really didn't think the movie was that great. I should probably preface this by saying that I read the short story years ago, back in 11th grade and absolutely loved it. I wasn't dealing with my sexuality back then, but I still identified with the story on both an emotional and creative level (it's a really well-written story -- very painful and brutal but beautifully composed at the same time). I even read it a few weeks ago in anticipation of the movie, which I saw a couple of days back but haven't sat down to talk with anyone about it. That being said, I should probably say why I didn't enjoy the movie so much. I wouldn't call it a bad movie by any means -- the acting was extraordinary (especially Heath Ledger, who portrayed the character's emotional frustration so well that it was shocking at points, especially when he collapses in the barn door after saying goodbye to Jack for the first time and that man comes accross him and Heath yells at him) and the cinematography (always a favorite thing I look out for when going to movies) was absolutely beautiful. But when the credits rolled, I was left sitting in my seat thinking: what's the big deal? Of course, I understand the cultural importance of this film, how it's taking a homosexual love story and making it mainstream, and I certainly applaud both the film and the filmmakers for that. I feel that "Brokeback Mountain" will go down in history as a landmark film for its frank and unapologetic portrayal of two men in love. But as a film in itself, it just didn't really affect me in the way I expected it to. As a recently out young gay man, I went into this movie thinking a)it would be the best movie I've seen in a long time, and b) I would be so emotionally and psychologically blown away by the movie and it's message that I would be an emotional wreck for the next couple of days. But neither of these things happened. I like to consider myself a movie buff and I guess a disclaimer would be that I'm not too fond of Ang Lee movies but even the story itself didn't cut me the way the original short story did. I didn't think the love story itself was that romantic -- to be honest, there were times when it was quite brutal. And I understand that this is the nature of the character and the situation that these two men are in, but I guess I was expecting more of a heartwarming love story, something romantic instead of tragic (which sounds silly considering that I knew the ending before going into the movie). I guess these two men (especially Ennis) were so closeted by themselves (Ennis) and by society (Jack) that aside from those tender kisses they share in the tent that first morning after having sex, the love didn't seem born out of romance so much as the social constraints themselves. I guess in the end I feel like the real victory, the real watershed, will come when people can go to a movie and see two men in love, having sex, etc. and think, "Yeah yeah, so they're gay -- BFD. Now let's get to the real movie." I just found it kind of frustrating that we're still seeing movies where the entire structure of a gay relationship is built around the questions of "what will they think", "will they find us out", "what if they catch us" etc. etc. These aren't questions you find asked a lot in heterosexual love stories (unless there's a difference in race, class, etc, but not necessarily as a result of the two lovers' genders) -- is it too much to ask that we shouldn't have to ask these questions in homosexual love stories as well? And part of me wants to just smile and nod and say that I loved the movie, but I don't feel that my being gay is an obligation to like Brokeback Mountain in the same way that someone who's African-American should feel obligated to like a film like "Beloved" or someone with HIV/AIDS should feel obligated to like "Philadelphia." I guess this too is another thing about the film that frustrates me -- that me saying I don't like it makes me worry whether I come accross as self-homophobic or anything less of a gay man. Will I have my gay license revoked because I'm not ecstatically in love with "Brokeback Mountain" the movie (as opposed to the story, which, as I said before, I love -- maybe that gives me an excuse? haha) Whew. So back to your questions/comments, pianoguy (and thanks for introducing this thread!) Jake Gyllenhall -- need I say more? ;-) I kept wishing for Ennis to get himself in order and run away with Jack to live on a ranch somewhere. That, to me, was a nice, heart-warming idea -- along with that brief moment by the campfire when Ennis wraps his arms around Jake and nuzzles his neck and they seem perfectly at ease with one another. Sigh.... The saddest scene: the end, with Ennis holding the two shirts to his chest. Also, I feel that the short story made it more unclear as to whether Jack was beaten to death or died the way his wife said he died. The movie seems to favor the former over the latter, or maybe this is just what Ennis believes. pianoguy -- I don't think Ennis was straight so much as he was more socially repressed (read: closeted) than Jack was. It seemed to me like Ennis was so willing and able to supress his emotions and his desires that he had the ability to "shut himself off" whereas Jack, who seemed much more comfortable with his sexuality, wasn't able to contain his feelings as a result of this. Sad art seems to be much easier to connect with than happy art. I find it much easier to cry or get emotional during a sad movie or a sad scene than a happy one -- though this isn't an absolute. I don't think a reaction to sad movies, music, etc. necessarily means that one is sad or depressed -- I just think that some people can experience joy in a much more attuned way than others, and the same thing goes for sadness as well. We see something sad happening and we feel for the person undergoing whatever saddens them. There's probably a lot of vicarious experience going on....what's that word called...catharsis? The same thing that goes on with horror movies: we watch them to get scared without being scared. So maybe we watch sad movies so we can be sad and emotional and work through our sadness without actually having to experience saddening things like the death of a loved one, unrequited love, etc.? Whew. Long post.

"I too obsess with the way I look I really need to stop it also. I guess it has to deal with self-esteem issues. Somedays I think I am cute, other days I don't think I'm cute at all. That's why I don't really like meeting guys off of the internet, because my profile picture may look cute, but I may not look as cute as in real life or etc etc.Then I'm afraid they may not like me or they may think I'm lame or not cute enough.. etc etc" "And I get so nervous about posting pics. Usually, when I take pictures, it's all on the fly. I'm usually giving a goofy smile or looking like a dear in headlights...lol. I have some really good ones, but I'm always scared I won't live up to them in person...Sometimes the camera can really flatter you as opposed to making you look bad." I'm with you on this one -- I was taking pictures of myself the other day for this yahoo personals add I'm working on and I found myself being so concerned with every little detail. I was obsessed with finding the right picture and kept taking picture after picture in order to hopefully land the right one with the right angle, that highlighted my eyes and smile -- even my sister, who had agreed to help me take some pictures, got so fed up with me that I had to end up taking the pictures by myself in the mirror, lol! I guess I worry because this photograph is going to be the first visual impression that another guy has of me -- and if I don't pull off the right look, the right smile, everything else will go bust. And then I start thinking that I look much better in person than I do in a picture because my face actually moves when I talk, it just doesn't stand still in this frozen pose -- so I feel sometimes like the camera does a worse job of capturing my physical features than a better one, if that makes any sense. There is so much unspoken pressure put on the profile picture that it's enough sometimes to disillusion one from making a profile at all. I've also had a lot of issues with self-esteem, and it's only recently that I started taking better care of myself and training myself to believe that I am cute and attractive and do have a lot to offer someone just as much visually as I do emotionally/personality-wise. And there are still some days when I think what's the use, no one's going to find me attractive, etc. etc. But there are other days when I look in the mirror, I'm well-dressed and smiling and I think: dang it! I'd go out with me if I saw someone looking like that, LOL! But I thought of this particular thread this morning -- I was getting ready to head out to meet an old friend for lunch (a girl, no less) and I found myself looking in the mirror to make sure I looked good, turning to the side and back to make sure everything was okay, shaving (I don't like too much facial hair on myself -- maybe some nice stubble but I don't like the way I look with anything more than that), making sure my jeans and sweater fit right. Which is odd because I never used to do this but only started to because I take much better care of myself and I have much more concern in how I look and present myself? Is this part of my homosexuality? I'm not sure -- I feel that even if I were straight, I would be just as concerned with the way I look.

Jinx, Thanks a million for the helpful resources! Never really thought about bringing some of my female friends as company to a gay club/bar -- but that's an interesting idea. I guess I feel like company -- whether it's gay guys or straight women or lesbians or whoever -- is the best thing to easing the experience. Support to fall back on, especially if it's people you know and feel comfortable around, is always nice to have in situations like that.

bodger-bob, It seems to me like you're feeling anxious and nervous about this issue moreso as a reaction to what others are thinking about you than your own personal sexual and emotional desires. From what you've posted here, I would say that your questioning your sexuality out of the blue is an aspect of your worries about what other people think of you -- a result of some gay guys thinking you were gay. "Gaydar" malfunctions work both ways -- these select few who've called you out as gay can be just as easily mistaken as a straight guy whose best male friend turns out to be gay even though he doesn't appear so at first glance. What I'm saying is, so what if these people (and it's important to keep in perspective that it's only a few) are thinking you're gay. You clearly love and cherish your girlfriend and have clear sexual and emotional desires for her -- this should be all the proof you need to convince yourself that your reactions to this situation are more a product of stress and worry than they are about any clear gay or bisexual feelings. Don't worry so much about proving yourself to others (I know, easier said than done...) -- they're not the ones you're going to be spending the rest of your life with!

Telling this guy that you have feelings for him, if he already knows that you're gay, might (and I repeat, might) help get rid of some of the tension, especially if you decide to forgo distancing yourself from him and still remain friends with him. Being in the same situation as you, sometimes I feel that if I told my friend I had a crush on him, he would get weirded out and stop hanging around me. Then there are other times, when I think that if I told him, he would just take it as a complement and treat it as no big deal. Granted, I'm not stupid enough to make any moves knowing that he wouldn't be interested in reciprocating my feelings, but I wonder sometimes if that wouldn't help get rid of some of the tension I feel sometimes when we're hanging out together. Just a suggestion; something to think about.

happytown, I know exactly where you're coming from on this and believe me, you're not the only one who feels intimidated by the gay bar/club scene. There's a gay bar/club near where I go to school but I'm so terrified of going alone -- I feel like it would be best to go in a group of friends or people I knew, but I don't have any close gay friends where I go to school (or at all, to speak of) so that kind of nixes that until I work up enough nerve to go on my own. Then again, it's tough going to any bar or club on your own --f or the simple fact that you feel you stick out like a sore thumb, what if no one comes over to talk with you, what if you don't have enough nerve to talk to other people, etc. etc. I'm worried about asking the one gay friend I know in the area (we were hallmates freshman year in college) not because I would feel pressured to sleep with him (he's lightyears out of my league anyway) but just because I would feel like I was pestering him in asking if I could tag along with him and his friends when they went bar hopping one night. I so want to drop him an IM or an email and ask him to lunch or dinner just to catch up and maybe see if I could hang out with him and his friends sometime, but I'm afraid he'll think I'm just a desperate gay guy fresh out of the closet and looking to try and hook up with him, even though I, like you, don't and can't take sex so casually. When what I really need at this stage is to make some gay friends so I can have that support system when going out and trying to meet other guys. I guess it boils down to the fact that you (and I) aren't comfortable going at this gay social scene alone -- in which case you definitely should not consider yourself the only one who feels this way. Of course, I'm sure this is only complicated by the fact that you're still unsure about your sexuality and coming to terms with that (whether you're straight, gay, bisexual) would be the best way to help ease some of this stress. God knows it worked for me, to the point where I'm finally feeling like I can actually attempt to join the gay social scene soon. In the meantime, rest assured that you're not alone and you're not the only one whose confused.