My daughter is threatening to keep my grandchildren away unless...

[catfeeder]

On 1/19/2024 at 12:01 AM, Sweet Sue said:

...So, you're telling me, the next time my daughter invites me to any function involving my grandchildren and she yells, "you better be here or else you'll never see your grandchildren ever again!" that I should make the trip anyway? 

Would you do that? 

Yes, I would. Daughter is mentally ill, and that's not going to change. She's your barrier to your grandkids. So right-fighting with her is not the point, getting access to the kids IS the point. THEY are important enough to render all else irrelevant.

If I were to invite my mother to see her grandkids and, instead of responding, "I'll be there at noon," she said, "Well... I'll need to check with Joe..." that would be like a. punch in the face. I'd be furious with her, especially if she stood those kids up. 

Your daughter is the very same problem she has always been, and when she gives you access to those kids, you can cooperate and see them, or you can point to your daughter as the very same problem she has always been. Those are your options. I would see the kids.

[Starlight925]

I have a family member who is very much like your daughter. 

Threats to cut off, threats of "you'll never see X or Y again".

Decades ago, I asked my mother why she put up with it.  She said, "Because she controls whether or not I get to see my grandchildren".

So we all put up with it, and guess what....those grandchildren are all adults now, and they have the fondest memory of grammy.  They adored her & my dad, who both had to grit their teeth at their mom's nonsense.  They are both gone now, and they never, for one second, let this nonsense get in the way of being awesome grandparents to these precious children.

[Seraphim]

Just now, Starlight925 said:

I have a family member who is very much like your daughter. 

Threats to cut off, threats of "you'll never see X or Y again".

Decades ago, I asked my mother why she put up with it.  She said, "Because she controls whether or not I get to see my grandchildren".

So we all put up with it, and guess what....those grandchildren are all adults now, and they have the fondest memory of grammy.  They adored her & my dad, who both grit their teeth at their mom's nonsense.

Yup, my mom had/has to jump stupid hoops because of my brother’s ex wife. She doesn’t care. She wanted to see her grandkids no matter how much she despised their mother. Now two are adults . One lives with her dad and the other two live with mom. All three adore their nana. My mom NEVER says anything bad about their mom and asks them if their mom and other grandparents are ok. They appreciate that. 

[reinventmyself]

Every response is met with "but she did/or they did such&such . ."    No one's arguing whether your daughter's response was appropriate. Yet your responses are defensive and all the fluff about other characters comes off as a deflection on your part.  You are trying to take the spot light off of yourself and your choices.  

Noone has argued that her behavior ok.  But we are merely trying to get you to take ownership of your part.  And to suggest you take only that part into consideration.  That's all you have control over.  What can you do differently going forward? 

It reads as if you are a victim here and everyone else is the problem.  Whether we like or not, we typically contribute to part of a toxic dance.

Please try to stop deflecting, try to have some empathy and if even you don't agree with her, have some empathy and put yourself in her shoes for a moment.

I have to add you keep stating that when it was brought to your attention that the grandson would be available on the 30th, you didn't know how she made that happen at the time!  Not sure why that matters but it comes off as part of your defense.  I don't know these people and I can pretty much figure out that she asked the father for a day of his, for your benefit.  Please don't tell us you don't have any clue what their custody arrangement looks like.  And if you don't . . 

 

[Sweet Sue]

Wiseman2- it is a little awkward but me ex and I have a good relationship. I think 'Joe' feels uncomfortable with him being there, although my ex goes above and beyond to make him welcome and feel at home. 

Yes, the oldest one who is 12 has two cell phones. One is the one his mother bought him and the other is one his father bought for him. I do reach out to him on his phone and we face time, too. 

I've been wanting to call him, but I don't know what to say to him - he might not even answer. 

I don't want to say the wrong thing.........any ideas?

[Seraphim]

How about, “ I am sorry I should have come and spent the day with you .”

[Wiseman2]

13 minutes ago, Sweet Sue said:

Yes, the oldest one who is 12 has two cell phones. I've been wanting to call him, but I don't know what to say to him - he might not even answer. I don't want to say the wrong thing.........any ideas?

Just say hi and apologize for not showing up, without excuses. Simply say sorry. Tell him you love him and you'll try to make it up to him as soon as you can. 

[Sweet Sue]

So, tonight I called my ex-husband (because my daughter still has me blocked from her phone and facebook and after our conversation, I asked him if I could speak to my granddaughter. I heard him tell her that it was Granna calling and she replied, "No, I don't want to speak to Granna." he tried one more time and she repeated it. He told me she was busy playing with her toys, unaware of what I heard. 

She's not even 4 yet, and she knows........

I don't understand why adults drag children into adult disputes. 

According to mutual friends on facebook, my daughter has been making mean-spirited remarks about me on facebook. 

When does it end? 

Wiseman, I did send my grandson a message while he was on facebook. I received no reply. 

[boltnrun]

40 minutes ago, Sweet Sue said:

I don't understand why adults drag children into adult disputes. 

You don't???

If that's true you wouldn't have refused to see your grandchildren just because you felt your daughter was being "rude". You even asked why you should "reward her bad behavior", even though your insistence on punishing her also punished the innocent children.

I find it quite disingenuous that you claim to not understand why adults drag children into petty arguments when you did the very same thing.

Do you still insist you were "right"?

[Wiseman2]

6 hours ago, Sweet Sue said:

, I asked him if I could speak to my granddaughter. I heard him tell her that it was Granna calling and she replied, "No, I don't want to speak to Granna."  I did send my grandson a message while he was on facebook. I received no reply. 

It seems like you tried to reach out. All you can do is let the dust settle and give them time to forgive you.  If the grandson has a phone please leave a voicemail apologizing.  

[Andrina]

Can I ask, since you've been posting for quite a while seeking advice, which advice HAVE you agreed with and acted upon to improve on the many of your problems? You never come back with what you've implemented and how it's going.

 

[Sweet Sue]

Andrina, I have spent the last two days trying to get in touch with my grandson by phone, facebook messenger and text. I have left messages on all of them apologizing for not showing up for Christmas without explanation - and seeking forgiveness. I have also reached out to my daughter as well with an apology. 

As of this writing, I have heard nothing from either of them.

Yesterday, me ex who lives with them called me on an unrelated matter. At the end of our conversation, he asked me if I would be willing to work on the relationship -more specifically with our daughter. I told him to ask her what she needs from me, and I will do it and when she is ready to call, I'll be here for her.

 

[LootieTootie]

9 minutes ago, Sweet Sue said:

Andrina, I have spent the last two days trying to get in touch with my grandson by phone, facebook messenger and text. I have left messages on all of them apologizing for not showing up for Christmas without explanation - and seeking forgiveness. I have also reached out to my daughter as well with an apology. 

As of this writing, I have heard nothing from either of them.

Yesterday, me ex who lives with them called me on an unrelated matter. At the end of our conversation, he asked me if I would be willing to work on the relationship -more specifically with our daughter. I told him to ask her what she needs from me, and I will do it and when she is ready to call, I'll be here for her.

 

Even if you feel like you're caving to your daughter, you're doing right. Your grandkids need their grandma! So I applaud you for doing what's right for the grandkids first and hope your daughter follows your lead.

[Coily]

12 minutes ago, Sweet Sue said:

Yesterday, me ex who lives with them called me on an unrelated matter.

HOLD UP: This is a huge revelation, at least to me. How did your Daughter take the divorce? While you and your ex maybe cordial, I would say this is the crux of the problem between you and her. Even adult children, even in their own divorces can react strongly to a divorced parent's actions or in-actions.

[waffle]

Shortly after I filed for divorce, the court required xH and I to attend a session on how to co-parent.  There was a STRONG focus on not using the kids as weapons.  Too bad the Daughter in this case was not required (it sounds like) to attend a class like this as I think she could've learned something from it.  

I, too, would have a hard time participating in--and encouraging--this behavior as it almost guarantees you will have more of it and are creating an opening for spoiled brat behavior anytime the daughter gets a poop crosswise.  Yet it's hard to not see the grandchildren too, I would imagine (not being a grandma myself).  So I see both sides of it.

 

[Sweet Sue]

Coily- my daughter did not handle the divorce well at all. She had a meltdown- and it did not go as planned. 

There is no easy way to break this kind of news to them. My ex and I discussed how best to proceed with the news. However, the next evening they were upset with each other and there was a shouting match between them. My ex- so caught up in anger said to her, "Oh, and by the way, your mother and I are getting a divorce!"

I just buried my head in my hands and sobbed. 

She was heartbroken at first, then over time came to accept it. 

Two months later, my ex remarried and depending on who you ask, my ex told me that our daughter did everything in her power to destroy that marriage and would eventually succeed. Their marriage was over in two years.

Over time she has told me that my ex still loves me and if I would ever consider remarrying him.

There's no way that will ever happen.

Doesn't ever child want to see their parents back together again? I get that! 

Waffle- that has been my struggle. Setting boundaries make for good relationships. That's all I was doing here. But what's the cost? Is there ever a time to make an allowance? Where is HER accountability. For years...many years the counselors told me to never reward her bad behavior- without exception. 

But this advice came BEFORE the grandchildren. It is MORE important for me to see them even if it means I see less of my daughter. Meanwhile, why can't she let them make up their own mind about what they think of me? Using her own words, "Lori is too little to understand what is going on". But just yesterday, she refused to speak to me when her grandfather told her I wanted to talk to her on the phone. I could hear her sweet voice reply, "No, I don't want to talk to Granna."

It's gut wrenching. 

Hopefully we will be able to find some common ground and mend our fences soon. I'm not getting any younger and they are getting older! 
 

[Sweet Sue]

Update

It's been 2 1/2 months since the last contact I had with my daughter. 

In the meantime, I have been blocked by her phone and facebook. Nevertheless, I have sent apologies to my daughter and grandson and have not heard back from any of them. My fiancee, who is facebook friends with my daughter has shown me posts where my daughter replies to a comment that I had invited her to my April wedding but failed to show up for Christmas. There continue to be comments about what a bad grandmother I am all over her facebook. As I stated earlier, I have been blocked but it hasn't stopped people from calling me up and asking what's going on? 

On my birthday, just two days ago, I received a lovely edible arrangement from her and my grands. There was also a handmade birthday card with a photo of all three of them and a very sweet inscription. I immediately texted her a thank you and even attempted to call. But it went straight to voice mail. 

It's one thing to be upset with me about the Christmas incident, but when she takes her frustrations out on social media, that's totally reprehensible. 

[Wiseman2]

4 hours ago, Sweet Sue said:

 On my birthday, just two days ago, I received a lovely edible arrangement from her and my grands. There was also a handmade birthday card with a photo of all three of them and a very sweet inscription. 

That's really sweet of your daughter to acknowledge you and send a gift from her and her children. Especially after you and "Joe" stood them up for Christmas. 

It's sad she's using social media to vent her frustrations in this passive aggressive manner, but unfortunately she is allowed to express her feelings on her own social media.

Try to stop reading it and hopefully eventually you two can bury the hatchet once and for all.

Hopefully "Joe" doesn't continue to have a divisive effect on your already very strained relationship with your daughter. It's unclear why they are social media "friends". 

[tattoobunnie]

My MIL acted similarly to how you acted, and she hasn't met either of them, and I have not communicated with her in 13 years.  You do realize, you chose Joe over your daughter and grandchildren.  She hustled her way to make sure both kids would be present on the 30th, you originally agreed to the 30th, then instead of communicating with her that you are uncomfortable with the ultimatum, and do not think it's good to come on the 30th, you blow ALL 3 of THEM off.

And btw, this is definitely about your behavior in prioritizing Joe's needs and wants.  Is this a common theme in your relationships?

Saying "I'm sorry" doesn't cut it when you still think you've done nothing wrong.

[Sweet Sue]

Let me be perfectly clear. 

I didn't chose Joe over her. It was never about that. She made it about that.

We made plans to visit. I still have the Christmas presents that I bought for my grandkids. Our conversation was going very well until I asked for a few more hours to confirm things with Joe, although I was 99 % sure we could make it that weekend. There's nothing wrong with that. She could just as easily said, "Sure thing, mom. Let me know in the morning." 

And all this would never have happened. 

 

All is asked for was just a few hours to confirm our plans and she went berserk! 

For most people, that is not an unusual request. 

Is there no accountability for her behavior? 

So, now she takes to social media to vent her frustration about all of this. 

She does this all the time. 

Most of you seem to think it's okay to disrespect your parents, giving them ultimatums and such and no matter what, we as parents should just look the other way. I think giving in would only make things worse down the road. My showing up has taught her how to treat me. I can say with 100% confidence if I disrespected my parents that way, they would not have made the trip- and in my opinion, they would have done the right thing. My parents didn't tolerate or reward such behavior. Sure, my parents didn't show for important events and holidays when my daughter was growing up, but I never made them feel guilty or threaten to keep them from seeing their only grandchild and that's precisely what she is doing right now. 

I think my decision was correct, based on the advice I received from therapists over the years. 

"Set boundaries and don't reward bad behavior'. I've tried to follow this simple rule with regard to my relationship with my daughter. 

 

 

[Seraphim]

However, she can choose as PARENT to deny you access to her kids. 

[Jaunty]

41 minutes ago, Sweet Sue said:

Let me be perfectly clear. 

I didn't chose Joe over her. It was never about that. She made it about that.

Why is it not getting through to you that almost everyone who has responded in this thread sees exactly how YOU made it "about that"?

41 minutes ago, Sweet Sue said:

We made plans to visit. I still have the Christmas presents that I bought for my grandkids. Our conversation was going very well until I asked for a few more hours to confirm things with Joe, although I was 99 % sure we could make it that weekend.

See?  You "made plans."  She was under the impression that you had plans.  And now suddenly you need "a few more hours"  to confirm with Joe.

Obviously,  the plans you and your daughter had made, and which she thought were solid, were not - pending last minute approval from JOE.

Please stop being so self righteous and take a look at this from another person's perspective.  It's easy for all of us to understand that perspective - why can't you?

 

41 minutes ago, Sweet Sue said:

 

There's nothing wrong with that. She could just as easily said, "Sure thing, mom. Let me know in the morning." 

Also, you "just as easily" could have honored the plans you'd made with your daughter, with Joe or without Joe. 

Quote

"Set boundaries and don't reward bad behavior'. I've tried to follow this simple rule with regard to my relationship with my daughter. 

Hm.  Then it should be pretty easy for you to understand her point of view.  HER boundary is probably something relating to you not prioritizing spending time with her children and her.   Allowing you access, after you putting your Christmas plans with her on hold at the last minute pending JOE, would be "rewarding your bad behavior."

Right?

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Sweet Sue said:

 I received from therapists over the years. "Set boundaries and don't reward bad behavior'. 

That's an interesting interpretation.  Perhaps your daughter shouldn't have sent you a nice gift after you stood them up for Christmas?  Why should she reward your bad behavior? 

[Jaunty]

I tend not to think of adults in my life - whether partners, children, friends - as people who are in some kind of "training" program under my tutelage.  

It's not up to me to "reward" or "punish" them.

Maintaining boundaries,  yes.  I agree with that fully.

Ironically, it seems that you and your daughter are at a perfect standoff.   You each think that making any kind of amends would be "rewarding bad behavior."  

Unfortunately for you, I think that YOU have the most to lose here.  You seem to care for your grandchildren a lot. 

[boltnrun]

Do you want to be "right" or do you want a close, loving relationship with your grandchildren and your daughter?

Do you prioritize "Joe" over anyone and everything else?