Relationships and who picks up the tab

[reinventmyself]

32 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

And overlooking that, for example, your sons girlfriend would live considerably worst if she would have to rent on her own(in terms of ammount of space as well as maybe money because sometimes singles places are more expensive)

ugh  . .Kw . .one of my fav's here. . but I'll bite:

In order for me to address some of your comments it exposes me to go into personal details which could possibly not be a good look on my bf.  I promised myself I wouldn't go there.  You'll just have to trust that I am reeeally good at math.  But it's not all about numbers, it's about fairness, right?  And I am also trying to avoid the age old war of the sexes debate.  After all I was a stay at home for decades, divorced with no marketable skill at 40 yrs old and found myself so behind the curve figuring out how to keep a roof over my head along my 2 my sons. . So I have been in the trenches, so to speak.  No doubt, it's colored my view on things. . no differently than men on the other side of divorces.  There are no winners.

I will pose the question though: . .if it's indeed fair. . That my son and his roommate probably make over 500k combined and live in a water front townhome for 4 years.  The rent even for them for is a good stretch.  Is it fair (fair question) that his girlfriend gets the privilege of sharing a room with my son and the two high wage earners now benefit from the rent being divided equally 3 ways?  I am going to guess her earnings are about 75k.  And she left her comfortable, financially and otherwise, but more modest apartment she had with a friend.  She was not 'worse off' and her one third contribution is a major leap from her previous rent.

Again. . .there isn't a one fit general swipe answer there and I can lost in the weeds with details.

Came back to add. . .If my bf moved in tomorrow and I made 4 times the amount he did, I would feel guilty expecting him to pay 50% of our shared expenses.

[Sindy_0311]

3 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

We had none of that in USA.  6 weeks unpaid.  I had 12 weeks paid through my employer and then 2 weeks vacation time I'd banked.  Husband started traveling 2-3 days every other week once our son was 2 weeks old.  No sitter/baby nurse/nanny or family help.  We managed.

Ok. I was just curious, because if really 2 years… that would mean we are not that well treated here… 

[Batya33]

13 minutes ago, reinventmyself said:

After all I was a stay at home for decades, divorced with no marketable skill at 40 yrs old and found myself so behind the curve figuring out how to keep a roof over my head along my 2 my sons. . So I have been in the trenches, so to speak. 

Just wanted to say - god bless you and I am in awe.  Yes I've known -very closely -women in exactly your position and .... I'm so sorry you were in that situation and so very impressed with your lemonade out of lemons approach.  I solo parent a lot as husband  travels a lot and I have one child who sometimes is like many children at once but..... not the same -and I do not know how you do it. But thank you for doing it.

[reinventmyself]

1 minute ago, Batya33 said:

Just wanted to say - god bless you and I am in awe.  Yes I've known -very closely -women in exactly your position and .... I'm so sorry you were in that situation and so very impressed with your lemonade out of lemons approach.  I solo parent a lot as husband  travels a lot and I have one child who sometimes is like many children at once but..... not the same -and I do not know how you do it. But thank you for doing it.

Thank you Batya. . your words are very kind ♥

[bluecastle]

18 minutes ago, reinventmyself said:

I will pose the question though: . .if it's indeed fair. . That my son and his roommate probably make over 500k combined and live in a water front townhome for 4 years.  The rent even for them for is a good stretch.  Is it fair (fair question) that his girlfriend gets the privilege of sharing a room with my son and the two high wage earners now benefit from the rent being divided equally 3 ways?  I am going to guess her earnings are about 75k.  And she left her comfortable, financially and otherwise, but more modest apartment she had with a friend.

To my eyes? No, this is not fair. 

That said, it is fair, or at least not problematic, if it's important for gf to be contributing equally, regardless of specifics about income.

[itsallgrand]

37 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Small example.  Around 2005 I flew to California to meet my dear friend for a girls trip.  I made a lot more than she did.  I found a lovely B and B in the town we wanted to drive to. It was more than she could afford. So I simply asked her to contribute the amount she would have paid half of --- at a less expensive place.  I really wanted to stay there and she did too but it was out of her budget.  Seemed totally fair to me for me to pay more.  I feel the same about what I wrote above if one partner wants a bigger/more expensive place - why settle for a less expensive place just so both can pay 

It's just a nice gift to a friend imo. But not necessary. If you decided you were fine with staying somewhere she could afford, and she got offended by that, I'd consider that an unfair attitude. 

[reinventmyself]

36 minutes ago, bluecastle said:

To my eyes? No, this is not fair. 

That said, it is fair, or at least not problematic, if it's important for gf to be contributing equally, regardless of specifics about income.

I didn't tell the story correctly and I could definitely see how the three of them should split the rent in thirds.  The part I left out was my sons roommate announced he would move out in the spring and the gf agreed to move in with my son and split the rent 50/50.  That's when I questioned him.  The cost for her would be immense, IMO. 

She no sooner gives notice to her roommate and my sons roommate postpones his move to later in the year.   Kind of an uncomfortable wrinkle, to say the least.  So, for now. . it's the three of them.

[Kwothe28]

48 minutes ago, Sindy_0311 said:

Also, I always found it was unfair that the father couldn’t have the same opportunity to stay with the kid. Meaning, why should I as a woman stay with the kid if I’m not even breastfeeding him? It’s a nonsense and there is no equality in there. 

Paternity leave is also a thing. Its not a foreign concept and it allows, for example, father to take a paid leave and bond with the baby. Albeit I think its only 3 months. Most Europe countries have it also. 

42 minutes ago, reinventmyself said:

In order for me to address some of your comments it exposes me to go into personal details which could possibly not be a good look on my bf.  I promised myself I wouldn't go there. 

Sorry, was not my intention. Its more to spark discussion.

47 minutes ago, reinventmyself said:

Is it fair (fair question) that his girlfriend gets the privilege of sharing a room with my son and the two high wage earners now benefit from the rent being divided equally 3 ways? 

Its equality. She shares and enjoys the same space as them so she pays the same as them. What you are asking for is "equity". For them to recognize that she doesnt have the same income and make a special priviledge for her. Which again may or may not happen. But as far as for equality part, its honored there in full. They are all equal roomates in the same space so they pay third(half in a few months). 

[bluecastle]

6 minutes ago, reinventmyself said:

I didn't tell the story correctly and I could definitely see how the three of them should split the rent in thirds.  The part I left out was my sons roommate announced he would move out in the spring and the gf agreed to move in with my son and split the rent 50/50.  That's when I questioned him.  The cost for her would be immense, IMO. 

Ah, got it. 

Well, everyone has different takes on this. Me, if I was moving in with someone who made significantly more than me I'd want one of two things. Thing one: We find a space that we can both afford, without it feeling like noose. Thing two: We find a space we both love, and if it's out of my range, I'd want to talk flesh out our version of equality to avoid the noose. 

But that's just me. 

However way you slice it, someone who makes significantly more money than another person has advantages in certain realms and so "equality" is something of an illusion. We all find ways to live with that. 

[Cherylyn]

My husband's income has always been higher than mine.  For us,  it's always been based upon income and what is fair regarding each spouse's monetary contribution whether it was rent,  mortgage and those types of big bills.  We own our house free and clear.  Finally! 

When we were dating for 2 years before our marriage,  often times he paid for dining out and there were times when I paid the restaurant bill.  We paid for our own entertainment tickets such as movies,  theater,  day outings,  spectator sports and the like.  We didn't travel together until marriage so all the money went into our joint banking accounts. 

Fortunately,  we're able to live off of my husband's income while I save my income every month.  I've been able to bank my paychecks and invest wisely for our long term benefits. 

He told you that if you did the math,  it would cost you to keep him?  If any man told me that line,  I'd show him the door. 

[smackie9]

46 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

Paternity leave is also a thing. Its not a foreign concept and it allows, for example, father to take a paid leave and bond with the baby. Albeit I think its only 3 months. Most Europe countries have it also. 

Sorry, was not my intention. Its more to spark discussion.

Its equality. She shares and enjoys the same space as them so she pays the same as them. What you are asking for is "equity". For them to recognize that she doesnt have the same income and make a special priviledge for her. Which again may or may not happen. But as far as for equality part, its honored there in full. They are all equal roomates in the same space so they pay third(half in a few months). 

In Canada it's one year per child maternity leave ( kinda like unemployment insurance like 55% maybe more in pay) and the time can be split between parents how they see fit. There is no limit. The father can take the whole year off if the mother wants to keep working. This is not paid by the employer, but by the government. 

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, itsallgrand said:

It's just a nice gift to a friend imo. But not necessary. If you decided you were fine with staying somewhere she could afford, and she got offended by that, I'd consider that an unfair attitude. 

She wouldn’t have been. I wanted to stay at the nicer B and B. I told her so and that since I wanted to I’d pay more than half. 

[itsallgrand]

11 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

She wouldn’t have been. I wanted to stay at the nicer B and B. I told her so and that since I wanted to I’d pay more than half. 

Right , I didn't mean to imply your friend would have been.

I simply meant I don't see it as unfair to not offer up to pay more. It's more like a gift I someone does in any relationship.

 

[Batya33]

Just now, itsallgrand said:

Right , I didn't mean to imply your friend would have been.

I simply meant I don't see it as unfair to not offer up to pay more. It's more like a gift I someone does in any relationship.

 

I would. Because if you know someone can’t afford to go to a certain place then you don’t suggest it unless it’s with but I’ll pay or I’ll pay more.

So if one person in a couple wants to live in a more luxury building or community or be closer to work where it’s more expensive and he or she knows it’s not affordable to the other person I don’t think it’s even fair to raise the option unless it’s included with “and we can talk about if it works within your budget “

[reinventmyself]

1 hour ago, Cherylyn said:

 

He told you that if you did the math,  it would cost you to keep him?  If any man told me that liim the door. 

Those were my words, not his 😉

[Tinydance]

5 hours ago, reinventmyself said:

Just tread carefully because you don't know my financial situation.  I have more assets, he has a pension I can't touch.  My home is paid off and he rents. . .I can go on because there are additional aspects to my comment 'cost me to keep him', including not marrying to begin with . . .but I don't need to defend myself.  At least not in this way.

It was only a fair question to ask and I am interested to see that it's pretty much divided down the middle.  It isn't black and white.  And I also knew I opened myself up to a rebuttal such as this, so I expected it.

I'm trying to relate to this way of thinking. I mean, as I said, I don't really own anything of value, so it never worried me that I'd lose anything if my partners and I were to break up. 

I think unfortunately in life not everything is always perfect or how you think it should be. For example, let's say someone earns good money and has assets. So they're trying to find a partner who matches them so that in the event of a split, they don't lose too much. But thing is it's actually not easy to find someone who's a good match where you both love each other. The person they find might not actually have a high paying job or have a lot of assets or things like that.

I guess at the end of the day you just need to think about what's truly important to you. To have a life companion or to preserve your assets and income. Most people don't worry about those things and don't end a relationship with someone just because they're worried about financial outcomes.

I do understand where this worry is coming from. For example, my best friend that I mentioned saved $150, 000 for a deposit for her apartment. She worked full-time for a long time and she was putting that money aside. She really wants to settle down, get married and have kids. Once she bought the apartment she seemed to start focusing on mainly dating guys who also own property.

She was seeing this guy who owned two houses and she seemed to think highly of him because of that. Though she wasn't even that into him. Then she made a comment that she'd prefer to date guys who own a house. I said: "Yeah but you own this apartment so couldn't your husband just live here with you?" And she was saying she'd want the guy to also own a property or both of them to buy a property together.

I understand she's worried that she worked so hard and someone can take that away. But if it's her husband and father of her kids then I don't really see it as some kind of huge financial risk. I mean, yes, she owns this apartment but this would be someone she shares her life with who takes care of their children and also spends money on her and the children. To me that doesn't seem like: "Oh I gave him half my apartment in the divorce but he gave me nothing". I don't think that the person giving the relationship to you is nothing. In a serious relationship they still spend money on you, e.g. special occasions or other ways. And they do things for you like for example take care of you where you're sick, drive you to work, etc.

I think it's just a trade off people have to make. Someone well off could just be single and that way preserve all their money. But that might be a lonely life?

[reinventmyself]

I believe we will view this through a different lens depending on what life stage we may be at.

Young and starting out there are no crystal balls. For better, for worse and all of life's changes.  You adapt and shift. 

My bf was married a second time, briefly.  I'm not certain, but if incomes weren't equal, she may have made more.  She owned the home he moved into.  He paid her $2500 a month towards the home and always felt like a guest.  He also paid for all dinners and outings.  I can see how that experience shaped him. 

Add in how my past life experiences shaped me, I don't know how we would make this work.  In the end it's ok.  I don't see us moving in together anytime soon. His priority is his aging parents and one of them will ultimately have to live with him.

It is a curious question and I was wondering how others made it work. Not sure why seeing it's not on table. But it's given me much to think about.

[mylolita]

Evening reinvent!

Ho ho HO! 🤣 Wadda topic!!!

To be palatable(!) I would chime in - equality within any relationship, be it financial or otherwise, is going to look different from couple to couple. Everyone is going to do things just a little bit differently, right?

I think most sensible and mature couples sit down and have discussions regarding financial things - unlike me and my husband, I think we might be the only married couple in the whole of the planet who never actually had The Financial Discussion!!!

I have to agree with @bluecastle and say, perfect and total equality at all times is near impossible. I really don't believe it, on a practical or philosophical level, at all. The scales of balance tip from one person to the next, back and forth, in most relationships. This is just my lil' ol' observation, but again, I could be totally wrong!

I'm also definitely NOT one to talk about money! Hardly know what a budget is, if there ever is a loose one, normally blow right through it, and you could argue, with "not my own money!"

I also feel like the last traditional couple in the world and the last housewife in the world who is in her early 30s. I really do! So I have a completely different angle on this and, I think it is a pretty contemptible angle as well! I feel like it ruffles feathers!

Just as an example - my husband who I've been with for 15 years and have 3 children with, he pays for absolutely everything, and has done out right for at least 10 years, maybe even more. He's 9 years older than me. We met when I was 18 and he was turning 28 and, at the time, I was still in college, with great education prospects, fantastic exam results, and I worked two jobs also which I'd got myself. One for a whole 8.5 hours on a Saturday as a medical file clerk at an Opticians and then I did 2-4 night shifts as a waitress and bar maid at a local cocktail bar and nightclub. So I was definitely not a lazy girl and not a gold digging gal! But, when I met my husband, he was my first boyfriend and we just were never apart from the week we met. He was renting his own cottage in a really great part of town and, he suggested I move in nearly straight away. I did! I paid a kind of, gesture of a contribution towards rent for about 6 months, then he told me, keep it, really, and really insisted, and then that was that. It just went from there. I did work part time in many jobs, I always kept pretty much most of the money. I'd buy things for the house or going out with the girls or myself or him but, I was never asked for money for bills or meals out or food shopping, nothing like that. I did contribute a small part to buying our first house, but I could never even match anywhere near what my husband earns and he knew that and would never have expected it of me. I saw my £20,000 or whatever it was at the time as my little contribution, then forgot about it!

I suppose with having young children someone like me could argue well, everyday, I "work" a 14 hour day. And I do all the housework, and the garden, and all the food shopping, and I cook every meal unless it is a takeaway. You could argue my contribution is as great as his, but just not in a financial way - because, you can't monetise raising your children and keeping house.

I don't know how many men nowadays would be content to financially "keep" a woman and his family? I really don't! And I don't know how many women these days would be happy to be "kept!" 

But, I'm sorry reinvent!!! Back to your original question!!!

In my opinion, if your son is fine with having his girlfriend move in, and they settle between themselves something financial, even if it does seem like it's going to be a strain on her - I suppose my opinion is it's always private and between the couple, and if they are cool with it, well, I guess you have to step back and let them get on?

I guess... I agree with the opinions on here that say well, if a person is used to or wants a certain standard of living, then it's up to them to front the left over cost if they want their partner along for the ride! This is something that crops up a lot with couples who are already established and then meet up later in life, maybe long term renting, or owning property, or having long term savings - and it makes things more complicated, and yes, there is bigger debate over financial things to be had.

If you meet young, and grow together, the financial equality I think doesn't seem too big of a conversation. Things just naturally develop and you find your flow in all those areas maybe a bit more easily?

I think this is one of the downsides to meeting later in life! Older people, in the middle of careers, who already own property and savings... it's a bit of a financial minefield for getting together with someone else. The questions will always come up - do I sell my other property? Do we now buy one together? Who pays what? Both working but never normally with the same salary - it's difficult, and I imagine money is am embarrassing and private topic for most people, so it's hard to discuss sometimes. 

I mean, I'm no one to talk by the way! I argue with my husband all the time about money! Normally about how much I've spent!!!!

I hope your son and his girlfriend are happy by the way - I'm sure they can work something out between themselves. If she insists going half straight down the centre, I guess it might be a pride thing, no matter how much strain that's going to put on her?

x

[boltnrun]

My mother taught me to always, ALWAYS be able to earn my own money. Because spouses can become ill, they can sadly pass away or become disabled, or divorce could happen. That's why even though my husband really didn't want me to work I did anyway, and good thing because when I divorced him he expected me to come crawling back. He said I wouldn't last five minutes without him. Well, it's been well over 20 years and I didn't go back. Because I had a job and over the course of those 20+ years I got better and better paying jobs. And I had a kid too, so daycare was something I had to take care of and my ex certainly wasn't going to cover that. I think that gets overlooked a lot when people split or lose a spouse. The kid needed to be cared for by someone while I worked and that costs money. 

If by some miracle I met a man and we got serious I would continue to work full time. And I wouldn't feel comfortable paying more than I do now for housing. I need to be able to save because again, you never know. I honestly wouldn't feel comfortable not working even if this mythical man told me he had everything covered. 

[mylolita]

Oh! Reinvent! 

I also read an interesting article once online - it said that women generally want a man to match their education level and financial level or more (and as women are now generally out preforming men at university level and school, and women are now more involved and flourishing in careers than ever, this is making it hard on men!)

I had a conversation with the hubby once and y'know, he can't speak for all men, of course, but he said he wants to feel like he is taking care of me and looking after me and providing for me - he said that's his role, as a man. 

I realise that is highly controversial these days, I mean, we are traditional, especially for 2023! But, sometimes I think men can feel a little insecure now and then, if the woman is financially the real high flyer, and there is a massive block of space between what he earns and what she earns, or if she has a lot more assets than him - I don't know. Obviously, some guys, that won't matter a jot! And it won't threaten them at all. I think some guys on the more traditional end of the spectrum would feel a little brow beat about it. 

When the couple is older and established and they both have their own home? I think this is your current situation? I think that can be difficult! You have built something, worked hard for something, you get used to your own space and have your own memories and friends and routines around that house - the other persons house can feel like, your boyfriends parents house or something - when people have said they feel like a guest in their boyfriends or girlfriends house, I can see how those feelings could be, when you have two established adults in a relationship without living together. 

With money, sometimes it's good to take a cue from how the relationship is and how it feels - what's the vibe, y'know? Are you both more the planning and saving type? Is one a massive spend a holic and the other cautious? Are you liberal and fancy free or more traditional? I think the feel and current of your relationship often dictates how your financial life within that relationship goes! Sometimes you find, two massively easy going people in a relationship don't keep track of much and randomly pay for this and then he pays for that and there is no pattern, decision, rhyme or reason to it - it's spontaneous, just like them. Other couples, they need structure and boundaries and the monthly planning out and asking and respect is very important of joint decisions so, you see that playing out in their financial decisions together. Am I just waffling on? Definitely - HA!!!

Do you get my drift? 

I'm trying to say - however you and your boyfriend are, personality wise, and as a team unit, together - what your joint principles are, I would work from there, I really would! 

I could also take some advice from this thread so I'm reading - LOL!!!!!!

x

[Batya33]

I never relate to the "well nothing is perfect" whether on this topic or other relationship topics.  If that's not obvious then I question why the person is in the relationship.  For me personally I feel very strongly -having seen what can happen - the same as Bolt.  A married woman should have savings preferably or at least marketable skills to get a full time job and support her and her children if heaven forbid something happens to her husband/primary provider.  

I had a lot of financial assets and a high salary starting in my late 20s/early 30s. As I've written here before I spent many years amassing a nest egg because I knew I'd want to be a SAHM longer than maternity leave and I knew that a man with financial stability was essential but I didn't need wealthy -I was attracted to various men including highly educated men who worked for nonprofits or government which didn't command a high salary like private companies did. For example. 

So I figured if I married someone like that I could use my nest egg to stay home with a child longer - contribute as if I was working outside the home. I would not have dated or married a man who wasn't financially stable with a strong work ethic and ambitious about his career with career goals he was working towards. 

As it turned out I didn't need to -but as I wrote above I felt better about myself paying half the rent while I was a SAHM. 

If I had married the man I was engaged to at age 23 I'd have had very little in savings -I was working full time as a teacher and living at home.  He was 26 and owned an apartment and made a decent living in the financial industry.  Our plan was for me to make babies and stay home.  But we broke up.  In hindsight I realize that would have been financially precarious for me.  For me - meaning I too think each couple has to make this decision of what works for them.  I'm describing my personal views on the subject.

[Cherylyn]

1 hour ago, reinventmyself said:

Those were my words, not his 😉

Oh ok.  Nonetheless,  it would be fair to contribute based upon income.   For example,  rent,  utilities,  mortgage,  insurance,  food,  gas (petro),  restaurant dining / takeout meals,  entertainment expenses,  etc.  For less expensive expenses,  go "Dutch" or each person pays their own way. 

[dias]

6 hours ago, reinventmyself said:

I will pose the question though: . .if it's indeed fair. . That my son and his roommate probably make over 500k combined and live in a water front townhome for 4 years.  The rent even for them for is a good stretch.  Is it fair (fair question) that his girlfriend gets the privilege of sharing a room with my son and the two high wage earners now benefit from the rent being divided equally 3 ways?  I am going to guess her earnings are about 75k.  And she left her comfortable, financially and otherwise, but more modest apartment she had with a friend.  She was not 'worse off' and her one third contribution is a major leap from her previous rent.

I don't think this is right. In her shoes though, I wouldn't move in, simply because I wouldn't be able to afford it. I believe it would be wiser to ask your partner to move together somewhere else you can both afford. 

Personally I wouldn't mind contributing more financially if I had more money regardless if it's fair or not as long as I knew the other person did not want to take advantage of me. Also, as a guy, I wouldn't date women who would earn substantially more than me so contributing more if I earned more would be the only viable way. 

Plus, it's what Tinydance mentioned, the chances of finding a potential partner decrease a lot with this filter. 

[Cherylyn]

2 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I never relate to the "well nothing is perfect" whether on this topic or other relationship topics.  If that's not obvious then I question why the person is in the relationship. 

 

 

Yes,  I've heard the same old line,  same old excuses of "Well,  nobody's perfect"  which is an extremely flippant remark.   It's a very convenient phrase to be sure.  For example,  being called a liar or the other person being an alcoholic or whatever.  If confronted regarding being accused of being a liar,  thief,  cheat,  etc.,  the perpetrator nonchalantly says,  "Nobody's perfect."  Or, the alcoholic would say,  ". . . And,  you think you're so perfect."  🙄  My former and newly divorced neighbor told me her alcoholic husband would actually say that to her.  At any rate,  the "Nobody's perfect" line is classic deflective gaslighting at its very ugliest.  It's underneath the veneer of complete denial and never taking ownership,  accountability nor responsibility for wrongdoing and transgressions.  I know all the tricky,  extremely cowardly,  despicable comeback lines,  unfortunately.  ☹️

I would actually question why I was in the relationship?   Easy answer:  It's time to make my exit.  It's over and I'm OUT.  Done deal.  Bye-bye.  🖐️

[catfeeder]

20 hours ago, poorlittlefish said:

When I was married, my husband earned about a third more than me. We had a joint account for bills, to which we paid into proportionally in line with our incomes. That way we both had the same percentage of our salaries left to do as we wished with, in separate accounts. Any excess in the joint account went towards holidays or home improvements.

We both felt this was a very fair arrangement and meant we never argued about money. 

This is exactly what I would suggest. Three accounts, Partner1, Partner2 and Ours.

Each contributes to the Ours account based on percentage of income. That account is used, not just for expenses, but also shared investments and savings.

The leftover earnings of each go into their own respective accounts to be saved or spent without the approval of the other.

So the Ours account can be as large as the couple desires to co-mingle funds, while each partner also retains the degree of their agreed autonomy of spending or savings.