Relationships and who picks up the tab

[Batya33]

11 hours ago, dias said:

Also, as a guy, I wouldn't date women who would earn substantially more than me so contributing more if I earned more would be the only viable way. 

Why not? Also then would you break up if the woman started to -like switched from government or nonprofit to private companies?

[Batya33]

9 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

same old excuses of "Well,  nobody's perfect"  which is an extremely flippant remark.

I meant in the context of deciding "well I'm not going to find someone who I'm compatible with financially and if I meet someone who is struggling in general financially but everything else is great I mean nobody's perfect so obviously I shouldn't stop dating that person just because I'll have to be the main provider ad infinitum"

[jul-els]

I haven’t read the thread, but imo, what’s fair is whatever a person is financially comfortable with. Someone’s responsibility to pay for their housing is their own and they should never enter into an agreement that they’re uncomfortable with or think they might not be able to handle, whether there’s a partner involved or not. Financial boundaries must be maintained, just the same as any other boundaries in a relationship. The responsibility is on oneself alone to make that decision. 

[mylolita]

11 minutes ago, jul-els said:

I haven’t read the thread, but imo, what’s fair is whatever a person is financially comfortable with. Someone’s responsibility to pay for their housing is their own and they should never enter into an agreement that they’re uncomfortable with or think they might not be able to handle, whether there’s a partner involved or not. Financial boundaries must be maintained, just the same as any other boundaries in a relationship. The responsibility is on oneself alone to make that decision. 

I agree!

It's so personal, for the couple to work out between themselves. 

I think generally, people seem to try and split equally if they can, especially these days, but it's not very often that you have a couple who earn nearly the same amount - normally one is out earning the other by some stretch at least - makes genuine financial equality too complicated and near impossible!

x

[Big Stan]

When my wife and I got together we were young and both had nothing. She had just graduated college and I wasn't yet done.  We pooled all our money together because we had to, just to survive.  Then I made more for a little bit, then the crash in 08 happened and she carried us for a couple years pretty much 100%.  Fast forward to now and I make way more than she does.  We still have joint accounts and we still don't worry about who pays for what.  

 

However, If I am ever unfortunate enough to have to date again that isn't going to be the case.  My wife and I have busted our asses to acquire a decent portfolio and I make a good living.  I would not be paying for everything in regards to any future person.  She can pay her half, or she can sign an iron clad prenuptial agreement probably both.  If we buy a property together she will get whatever equity consideration she puts in and nothing more.  

 

I am around 40 and have been working one 20 years.  There is no way someone is going to come in now and benefit from that work.  Hopefully it's not something I ever have to worry about though. 

[Batya33]

12 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

I am around 40 and have been working one 20 years.  There is no way someone is going to come in now and benefit from that work.  Hopefully it's not something I ever have to worry about though. 

I was in your situation as I described above except I was nearing 40 and never married.  I didn't see it as my benefiting from my future husband's past work or him from mine - at 42 we were newlyweds and new parents.  I mean - like I said I insisted on paying out of my nest egg half the rent but he benefited from me being home full time -no daycare/sitter/nanny expenses, less need for takeout/eating out, etc.  He wanted that arrangement.  I did too. He also benefitted because both of us strongly believed in having one person at home full time.  He is a great parent and never wanted the job and work of full time parent at home. I did. So it worked out great.

We each benefited from how we'd worked so hard up to that point -he had a big nest egg as well.  He paid for most while I was home full time with our son. 

He still probably pays for more since I work part time and he full time.  We don't keep score.  When our son turns 18 we'll be in our early 60s.  Neither of us plans on retiring but at some point someone is going to "benefit" from the person who made more $ over all the years -that likely will be him.  It's not an issue, not a thing. 

I'm not quite sure what this analysis of "benefit" is because a 20 something could marry another 20 something with an ample trust fund, too. 

Certainly if I had to be back in the dating scene in my 60s and wanted to remarry I would consider the entire situation including if that person had kids at home still ,etc.  But if I wanted to remarry I would do so only if I were comfortable with sharing "the wealth."  Otherwise why marry? Just date, keep separate residences and split all dating and vacation expenses. 

[Big Stan]

11 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

  Otherwise why marry? Just date, keep separate residences and split all dating and vacation expenses. 

That's probably what I'd wind up doing TBH.  I have a responsibility to my son now to make sure he gets the money I've worked for.  I would only marry someone who had a similar amount to lose as I do.  If that limited my choices so be it.  Like I said though my plan is to not have to worry about such things. 

 

Also you stated you went into the relationship with substantial savings.  That shows responsibility and makes a difference IMO. 

[Batya33]

7 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

That's probably what I'd wind up doing TBH.  I have a responsibility to my son now to make sure he gets the money I've worked for.  I would only marry someone who had a similar amount to lose as I do.  If that limited my choices so be it.  Like I said though my plan is to not have to worry about such things. 

 

Also you stated you went into the relationship with substantial savings.  That shows responsibility and makes a difference IMO. 

Well -I was older plus as I wrote above I saved for 11 years in case I married someone who couldn't fully provide so I could be a stay at home parent for years.  I wouldn't expect someone in their 20s to come with a nest egg- more likely -school loans lol.  My parents married in their early 20s and had nothing.

I totally see where you are coming from -if you remarried you now have a son -as I do -so there's more to consider financially as far as protecting the child's inheritance. Let's hope neither of us is ever in that situation!

[Big Stan]

Just now, Batya33 said:

Well -I was older plus as I wrote above I saved for 11 years in case I married someone who couldn't fully provide so I could be a stay at home parent for years.  I wouldn't expect someone in their 20s to come with a nest egg- more likely -school loans lol.  My parents married in their early 20s and had nothing.

 I agree.  My wife and I had nothing when we were young and first together.  Even then though, we both brought the same thing into the relationship.  I don't think I would date someone in their 20's as at my age that would be creepy.  Late 20's maybe because I look young, but early 20's is old enough to be my kid.  So it's not something I personally have to worry about.  I was only talking about my personal situation not a universal rule. 

[Batya33]

4 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

 I agree.  My wife and I had nothing when we were young and first together.  Even then though, we both brought the same thing into the relationship.  I don't think I would date someone in their 20's as at my age that would be creepy.  Late 20's maybe because I look young, but early 20's is old enough to be my kid.  So it's not something I personally have to worry about.  I was only talking about my personal situation not a universal rule. 

Yes I totally get it.  I'm always curious with remarriages how it works with prenups -or no prenups but I of course never ever ask! I know my friend married her husband when she was 40 and he 30.  She was a corporate executive, high earner plus savings.  He was a dance teacher. She got a prenup.  

[Cherylyn]

12 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I meant in the context of deciding "well I'm not going to find someone who I'm compatible with financially and if I meet someone who is struggling in general financially but everything else is great I mean nobody's perfect so obviously I shouldn't stop dating that person just because I'll have to be the main provider ad infinitum"

Oh ok.  I meant "nobody's perfect" as typical excuses whenever the perpetrator is in complete denial,  refuses to admit wrongdoing,  is prideful,  egotistical,  narcissistic,  never owns their fault nor takes responsibility for their despicable and deplorable transgressions.  I thank my lucky stars ⭐ I no longer interact with the likes of those creatures anymore.  😉

[Big Stan]

2 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Yes I totally get it.  I'm always curious with remarriages how it works with prenups -or no prenups but I of course never ever ask! I know my friend married her husband when she was 40 and he 30.  She was a corporate executive, high earner plus savings.  He was a dance teacher. She got a prenup.  

Yeah I don't blame her.  I'm C-Suite myself and while it wouldn't be off the table I wouldn't marry someone without significant assets unless a very serious prenup was involved.  Luckily my marriage is really healthy so the likelihood of me needing a new partner isn't very high.  Really only if my wife died and she's pretty healthy. 

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, Cherylyn said:

Oh ok.  I meant "nobody's perfect" as typical excuses whenever the perpetrator is in complete denial,  refuses to admit wrongdoing,  is prideful,  egotistical,  narcissistic,  never owns their fault nor takes responsibility for their despicable and deplorable transgressions.  I thank my lucky stars ⭐ I no longer interact with the likes of those creatures anymore.  😉

Yes -another poster on this thread used it to suggest that looking for someone who was more of a financial equal might not be so important given other aspects of a relationship and therefore someone with financial struggles might be ok since nobody is perfect.  I probably misdescribed that!

[Cherylyn]

Just now, Batya33 said:

Yes -another poster on this thread used it to suggest that looking for someone who was more of a financial equal might not be so important given other aspects of a relationship and therefore someone with financial struggles might be ok since nobody is perfect.  I probably misdescribed that!

Yeah,  "the nobody's perfect" is a cop out excuse.  Cheap shot. 

[Batya33]

4 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

Yeah I don't blame her.  I'm C-Suite myself and while it wouldn't be off the table I wouldn't marry someone without significant assets unless a very serious prenup was involved.  Luckily my marriage is really healthy so the likelihood of me needing a new partner isn't very high.  Really only if my wife died and she's pretty healthy. 

Yes- it's all a leap of faith.  I also just meant if heaven forbid something happened.  Also -financially - I think in this topic of discussion that's also a factor -what the plans are in the event of job loss/can't do that type of job anymore etc. Then the split of $ might have to shift.

[Big Stan]

1 minute ago, Batya33 said:

Yes- it's all a leap of faith.  I also just meant if heaven forbid something happened.  Also -financially - I think in this topic of discussion that's also a factor -what the plans are in the event of job loss/can't do that type of job anymore etc. Then the split of $ might have to shift.

Oh for sure. I think I mentioned my wife carrying us for a while during the crash of 08 when my job disappeared. She held me down at my lowest. That’s why I don’t care how much I earn it’s never a problem and I consider her an equal partner in my financial and even work future. I ask her advice on work matters a lot. 
 

WE built my career, she is responsible for it too. I think maybe that’s why I am so unwilling to consider sharing with a hypothetical future partner. I know what sacrifices were made to get where I am from both me AND her.  In an ideal relationship it would operate like my wife and I do now but if the disparity in assets was great I don’t think I would have that same level of cooperation and confidence. 
 

 

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, Big Stan said:

Oh for sure. I think I mentioned my wife carrying us for a while during the crash of 08 when my job disappeared. She held me down at my lowest. That’s why I don’t care how much I earn it’s never a problem and I consider her an equal partner in my financial and even work future. I ask her advice on work matters a lot. 
 

WE built my career, she is responsible for it too. I think maybe that’s why I am so unwilling to consider sharing with a hypothetical future partner. I know what sacrifices were made to get where I am from both me AND her.  In an ideal relationship it would operate like my wife and I do now but if the disparity in assets was great I don’t think I would have that same level of cooperation and confidence. 
 

 

That also is a great point for this thread. If one partner makes substantially more but part of the reason he or she does is because of the other person's emotional support or invisible labor or actual labor- that has to count too. Many years ago there was a famous divorce case where I think the woman asked for half her husband's medical career/earnings because she put her career on hold to help put him through med school -meaning she worked full time but not necessarily on what she wanted to do -focus was on $$$ to pay for med school -and then put her career on the back burner to raise kids so he could work crazy hours.  This thread seemed to assume it was about partners first moving in together but then later on what you wrote perhaps should be factored in as well.

[Cherylyn]

1 minute ago, Big Stan said:

Oh for sure. I think I mentioned my wife carrying us for a while during the crash of 08 when my job disappeared. She held me down at my lowest. That’s why I don’t care how much I earn it’s never a problem and I consider her an equal partner in my financial and even work future. I ask her advice on work matters a lot. 
 

WE built my career, she is responsible for it too. I think maybe that’s why I am so unwilling to consider sharing with a hypothetical future partner. I know what sacrifices were made to get where I am from both me AND her.  In an ideal relationship it would operate like my wife and I do now but if the disparity in assets was great I don’t think I would have that same level of cooperation and confidence. 
 

 

I thank God you've said this @Big Stan ! 

My husband earns a much higher income than mine.  I remember back in the day when I financially supported him during his graduate programs not once but twice.  This was back in our apartment and condo days.  I fully supported him during our lean years,  took care of the household,  chores,  errands,  our sons,  chased after him if he forgot his home cooked meals packed in a cooler for his work days,  college nights,  studies / library times,  group projects,  etc.  He was gone many weekends and traveled for business, too.  I coached him and gave him invaluable advice regarding his career path as he ascended the corporate ladder.  Fast forward to today.  He has a fantastic career and we reside in a very comfortably established and settled suburban neighborhood today.  We both know  he couldn't have succeeded without my full support every step of the way.  He didn't attain his success or I should say our success without my support and sacrifices and he never forgets this either.  It was indeed team work every step of the way.   It took a lot of blood,  sweat and tears to reach fruition.   No pain,  no gain.

[Cherylyn]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

That also is a great point for this thread. If one partner makes substantially more but part of the reason he or she does is because of the other person's emotional support or invisible labor or actual labor- that has to count too. Many years ago there was a famous divorce case where I think the woman asked for half her husband's medical career/earnings because she put her career on hold to help put him through med school -meaning she worked full time but not necessarily on what she wanted to do -focus was on $$$ to pay for med school -and then put her career on the back burner to raise kids so he could work crazy hours.  This thread seemed to assume it was about partners first moving in together but then later on what you wrote perhaps should be factored in as well.

I agree.  During my childhood,  I clearly remember my neighborhood friend's mother typing her husband's research papers on a very heavy,  old-fashioned non-electric cast iron typewriter on a small dilapidated table without A/C on a sweltering summer day,  almost 9 months pregnant,  tending to her four other children while supporting her husband's career.  Every time I came over to play with my friend,  her mother reviewed her husband's papers,  corrected them and typed them so they were perfectly ready to submit the following morning.   Later,  after he achieved his goals,  he left and divorced her.  She made sure she received half her husband's earnings,  the entire house,  plus more,  etc and rightly so. 

[Big Stan]

31 minutes ago, Cherylyn said:

I thank God you've said this @Big Stan ! 

My husband earns a much higher income than mine.  I remember back in the day when I financially supported him during his graduate programs not once but twice.  This was back in our apartment and condo days.  I fully supported him during our lean years,  took care of the household,  chores,  errands,  our sons,  chased after him if he forgot his home cooked meals packed in a cooler for his work days,  college nights,  studies / library times,  group projects,  etc.  He was gone many weekends and traveled for business, too.  I coached him and gave him invaluable advice regarding his career path as he ascended the corporate ladder.  Fast forward to today.  He has a fantastic career and we reside in a very comfortably established and settled suburban neighborhood today.  We both know  he couldn't have succeeded without my full support every step of the way.  He didn't attain his success or I should say our success without my support and sacrifices and he never forgets this either.  It was indeed team work every step of the way.   It took a lot of blood,  sweat and tears to reach fruition.   No pain,  no gain.

I would like this but for some reason I'm out of likes.  

[Batya33]

11 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

I fully supported him during our lean years,  took care of the household,  chores,  errands,  our sons,  chased after him if he forgot his home cooked meals packed in a cooler for his work days,  college nights,  studies / library times,  group projects,  etc. 

To me there's even an additional benefit to all of these benefits.  When the working spouse -or spouse who works longer hours outside the home - has the other spouse doing all of these things and also handling all that stuff that comes up last minute - there's a huge benefit to that in comparison to hiring outsiders/outsourcing -not just $$ savings but reliability and not having to manage another employee.

Like my friend who hired a sitter to pick up her son at school and take him to swimming. So if son didn't "want to" swim or didn't participate in the lesson - most sitters were not willing to figure out how to get the child back in the pool and finish the (expensive) lesson while if it had been a parent or even grandparent/relative much more motivation to do what it took rather than "oh I took him there but he didn't want to so we left......" My friend had no choice -single mom/working full time so a bit different.

So when it comes to who picks up the tab this sort of thing adds unquantifiable value but value nonetheless.

[Big Stan]

These last sort of arguments are ones I can support for why the lower earning spouse should be entitled to the money.  Pooling your resources are a thing and one of those resources is time.  If the one partner is spending their time at work or bettering themselves and moving up and therefore cannot spend that time on domestic duties so the other partner picks up the slack in that department they both worked together towards the common goal.  

I don't think that people should share resources by default simply by being married I think it needs to be a deal like that where it's fair.  That's why if it's someone who's already made it and has it all ironed out they shouldn't really be expected to share with someone who doesn't have a similar investment.  Especially since the domestic stuff becomes easier to manage in other ways or less important.  Like me for example, my son is almost a teenager.  He takes care of himself more or less at this point.  I have enough money that I can and do have a housekeeper to do the heavy lifting and a robot vacuum that runs daily to keep the messes down.  

I also have a very flexible schedule. How the working world works is the lower the responsibility you have generally the less you get paid and the more flexible your job us, but it's actually a curve.  Once you reach a certain point in responsibility you get more flexibility back.  I have employees to do my daily tasks and most of my responsibilities are in making decisions and being accountable for them.  I can work from my home office or my couch or sitting at a doctors appointment.  Anywhere I have internet access I can get to the team platform and be kept in the loop as to the comings and goings of my business. 

Now my wife has earned the reprieve she has from domestic duties because she was also the one who was doing ALL of that work and some of my personal errands on her "free time" when I was putting in 70-90 hour weeks for years.  I had meals made, groceries in the fridge and clean clothes just magically appear.  I didn't have to do any mental or physical labor to take care of my daily needs for years.  She did all of it.  The planning, the thinking even stuff like buying me new clothes when mine were worn out.  Basically all the survival stuff I needed to live outside of working.  Now I was working my ass off, and that's why she had to but my ascension to where I am is just as much from her handling all my household responsibilities as it was from me doing all that extra at work. 

[Batya33]

I think if you marry someone it’s a given to pool resources with the exception of also having separate accounts in addition to joint.  That’s my personal opinion of course.  My parents did it that way too. I wouldn’t have married someone who didn’t have that default mindset. I can see where of course for unmarried couples it’s not the default. To me it shouldn’t be. 

[Cherylyn]

8 hours ago, Big Stan said:

Now my wife has earned the reprieve she has from domestic duties because she was also the one who was doing ALL of that work and some of my personal errands on her "free time" when I was putting in 70-90 hour weeks for years.  I had meals made, groceries in the fridge and clean clothes just magically appear.  I didn't have to do any mental or physical labor to take care of my daily needs for years.  She did all of it.  The planning, the thinking even stuff like buying me new clothes when mine were worn out.  Basically all the survival stuff I needed to live outside of working.  Now I was working my ass off, and that's why she had to but my ascension to where I am is just as much from her handling all my household responsibilities as it was from me doing all that extra at work. 

^^^^^^^^^^  Amen to this!  Team work all the way.  I agree with you @Big Stan.  Same here especially during the most taxing earlier years of my marriage.  My husband traveled a lot for business and endured long commutes while I did as much as I could as "the cog in the wheel" or background support.  Meals made,  home made meals packed for him to eat on-the-go (to prevent his headaches),  laundry magically cleaned,  folded,  put away,  ironed,  many errands completed,  sons cleaned,  well fed and tended,  school / homework / projects done,  chauffeured them to their extracurricular activities,  did "team mom" duties,   tasks/ chores completed, etc so he could concentrate on his career ascension.  However, he did pick up the slack whenever he was home regarding helping with our babies,  children,  house / cars,  repairs / maintenance,  yard work,  errands,  chores,  etc.  It wasn't completely all dumped on me.  Since he out earns me,  his crowning point in his career was due to my "behind the scenes" support all the way so his success,  is my success or our success.  I made his life easier so he could charge full speed ahead and he did.  ☺️