Is my picker completely off again?!

[bluecastle]

Just to offer a slightly different take, or to expand on my earlier post:

Res flags, yellow flags, no flags: whatever the case, you’re not really going to know if a connection has legs until 2-3 months. So, yes, it’s important not to spend that time with some obviously troubled souls, but it’s equally important to remember that no amount of analysis is going to ensure...well, anything. In a sense, it just greases the wheels for over-investment and decreases the chance of actually getting to know a human being—and to feel out your own humanity and sense of harmony alongside them.

A lot of great points and observations are being made here. I agree with many, and would strongly encourage some reflection on how the residue of your own divorce may be drawing you to people in the midst of their own. I also know plenty of people in relationships/marriages that started when one person was separated, or that had an early home hang, so what’s that say? Takes all kinds, goes all ways. 

But when every date throws you this deep into your head? Well, it’s kind of a form of self-absorption and that makes it next to impossible to absorb another (red flags or none) in a way that is authentic. And if you’re increasingly finding yourself primarily compelled by men who seem more like puzzles than people—well, it’s worth asking why. Every human you meet is going to be wildly complex—that’s our animal default—but the early days should be radically calm. 

[Hora]

Thanks for all the comments. I hear you guys, I really do!! And yes I posted here not to overanalyze a situation, but more to understand my own patterns and where things go wrong. Because clearly this hasn't worked out very well! 

I do seem to mostly meet recently separated men, although they are not all like that. I actually went on a few dates with someone that is not recently anything at all. Never married actually. And I will see him again soon. The problem with that guy is that he doesn't live in Ottawa, so that's another issue.

I guess at some levels my radar about recently separated men wasn't strong because yes, what I saw happening with my ex husband. Also, I was seeing someone for a year, and he was recently separated as well (he had moved into his new place 5 months before we met), and the reason we broke up had nothing to do with him not being ready to move on. But I see now that those two situations were perhaps exceptions, and that the majority of men are perhaps not ready at that stage for anything long term. So, you have all made me more aware of my pattern with recently separated men. 

Also, just to clarify, I am only overanalyzing here in order to better understand if there is a disconnect between my impressions and reality. Normally I would just either choose to go or not on another date, and take it from there. I wouldn't necessarily over analyze. 

I will be honest that I do feel like I want to see this guy again. At least once and see from there. That being said, for those of you who were worried that I rush into things, I don't feel that is the case (despite the overanalyzing! haha). I definitely wouldn't want to see anyone exclusively before at least 2 months (and probably more like 3) of dating, and only once the exclusivity talk took place. I'm also not into the "let's see each other every day right from the start". I think twice a week max for the first few months. I do have a life and don't want to put everything aside to accommodate a starting relationship that might or might not work out. I've definitely learned not to do that. 

Also, just wanted to address the "safety" concerns. I have wonderful tenants that live upstairs (3 guys in their mid twenties that work out daily!). We are good friends actually and they know I'm dating. I usually let them know when I go on a date and they check in with me. If I bring someone home, I'll send them a quick text (like I did on Friday) and they'll send me a text an hour later to check in on me. If I don't reply, they would come and check. I would never have anyone over at my house for the first time without them being home. 

[Batya33]

That's great that you have tenants in the building.  Irrelevant as they could never get there in time plus why would you want to put them at such great risk and having to call the police etc because you chose to let a stranger into your home.  Do you really want your neighbor to have to check on you if they don't hear from you and put themselves at risk? Don't you want to reserve that kind of thing for a true emergency?  When I've been assaulted in a private space by a man it's taken minutes.  And there won't always be red flags before.  

Edited to add I agree with Rose.

 

[Rose Mosse]

It may be part and parcel in dating or that's the dating stage you are at right now after your divorce. If you want to see him a second time no one can stop you and you're your own person. As long as you're aware about the situation and end it early enough so that you're not leading anyone on, you'll be fine. 

You shouldn't be looking for anything serious at the moment anyway if you are close after your own divorce so all of this is a process. It's good to meet new people. 

Things will change over time as you may also expect different things out of a partner or serious relationship.

Try not to involve your tenants in your personal life. That business is transactional only. Although they may courtesy text you if you ask them to, you are still their landlord. Can they really say no? I think you're toeing the line there abusing that tenant/landlord relationship if it keeps up or if they begin to feel like you are dependent on them for obligations that have nothing to do with the rent. 

 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Hora said:

I do seem to mostly meet recently separated men

I guess at some levels my radar about recently separated men wasn't strong because yes, what I saw happening with my ex husband. 

Separated men are easy. They come to you because they want handholding.

You'll be used for sex and free therapy and when they are healed, they'll take that bloodied divorce bandage off.

A you'll keep cycling through this until you stop living in your ex-husband's shadow.

Your ex-husband narrative is at the center of this problem. You want to live his life, you want to be his new fiancée.

 Take a break from dating altogether. Stop competing with your ex and sort out who you really are as a newly single woman.

 

[Hora]

My tenants are actually friends. They are people that I used to work with for quite a few years, and would hang out with regularly. They're also getting a huge discount on rent because I preferred having people I know live in the building. So, I really don't think I'm abusing anything there.

As for the divorce/separation thing: you guys all seem really really stuck on thinking I'm newly single. Just out of curiosity: how long do you have to be separated before being "allowed" to consider a long term relationship? Because I've been separated 2.5 years now, and divorced one. Our marriage was dead many years before we actually separated, so I feel like I've been single for 7-8 years now. And I do feel genuinely ready to be in a long term relationship again. I'm just a bit confused about your comments in that regard. 

[Rose Mosse]

I don't think there's any set amount of time for when someone wants to pursue or can pursue a long term relationship. I was making a suggestion that all of this may be a process for you.

Some people might hit it off with someone they meet after they separate or even start dating while living with an ex. I met my ex while he was still married to his first wife (they were separated for two years when we met). He might have let her go as in his first wife as a person and no longer wanted to be with her but there were effects of his first marriage that continued have a very negative impact on him for the years after that while I knew him. 

A couple of members mentioned that you're attracting types of men or finding them enticing because they mirror your ex-husband. Even though you've let go of the idea of being with your ex, your marriage and divorce is still affecting you. 

You don't know how this guy's marriage and maybe-divorce (if he does get divorced) will also affect him. No one can say that at this stage or tell you not to see him absolutely. You'll have to figure it out on your own. I believe someone commented also that she would not consider dating someone unless he had been divorced (completely divorced) for at least two years so that is some idea of what others think and what others are doing. No one can tell you what to do. 

You get to make the rules on what's acceptable to you. We're only here to be a sounding board and show you patterns in your thinking or what you find attractive. There are no universal hard lines except maybe not to manipulate or deceive others and that is pretty straightforward for most people. 

[Jibralta]

35 minutes ago, Hora said:

you guys all seem really really stuck on thinking I'm newly single.

I haven't said that at all. 

[Hollyj]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

That's great that you have tenants in the building.  Irrelevant as they could never get there in time plus why would you want to put them at such great risk and having to call the police etc because you chose to let a stranger into your home.  Do you really want your neighbor to have to check on you if they don't hear from you and put themselves at risk? Don't you want to reserve that kind of thing for a true emergency?  When I've been assaulted in a private space by a man it's taken minutes.  And there won't always be red flags before.  

Edited to add I agree with Rose.

 

I agree!  Use better judgement, Hora. 

[lostandhurt]

Dating is definitely a learn as you go kind of thing.  Not necessarily learn how to date per-say but learn about yourself and others.  Many people that get divorced married youngish and when they were dating then they were way different than they are now.  You start dating again now that you are older and more mature in who you are and there can be a lot to learn about what you want, who you are attracted to and why.

You are smart to ask the questions and feel free to come here as often as you feel to possibly glean some insights into not only the men you meet but yourself. 

  This year separated thing in Canada could be a good thing, I wonder how many marriages were saved by it?

Anyways let us know how the next date goes.  Hopefully he will be more relaxed and you will see the day to day man he usually is, not the nervous trying to impress you guy we all seem to turn into once in a while.

  Lost

[Jibralta]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

Irrelevant as they could never get there in time plus why would you want to put them at such great risk

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

When I've been assaulted in a private space by a man it's taken minutes.  And there won't always be red flags before.

Great points. Predators are skilled opportunists and they tend to be adept at looking harmless. And attack can be swift and silent. 

Your upstairs neighbors may not be there one night, or they might be busy on their own dates and disinclined to interrupt what they are doing to follow up on you.

Plus, if you are attacked and your neighbors do intervene, they could be hurt. 

Stay safe, Hora.

 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Hora said:

I feel like I've been single for 7-8 years now. 

Ok, but that's still no reason to select separated men, no?

[boltnrun]

I find it interesting that you state 90% of the men in Ottawa are separated.  Is that really the case or does it just seem like it to you?

You can filter your dating preferences to only include "single" and peruse their profiles to ensure they are in fact divorced.

And please take the safety thing seriously.  A man can cover your mouth and pin you down and remove your phone from your possession before you can call for help. These men are strangers, no matter how many texts you've exchanged or how many hours the first date lasted.

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, Hora said:

Also, just wanted to address the "safety" concerns.

What "safety" concerns? None of these recent men seem to be creepy, do they? Perhaps too recent with the unraveling of their home life, but where did "safety" come from?

[Batya33]

54 minutes ago, Hollyj said:

I agree!  Use better judgement, Hora. 

It doesn't matter if they are your friends.  These tenants are not in your apartment.  When you invite a stranger into your home who you've met for a date you're signaling to him that you have little regard for your own safety and unless you've made it clear that sex will not be happening you are signaling you're ok with him making a pass.  If your tenant lived in your apartment it still would be really unwise because then you'd put the tenant at risk but at least this stranger would know you're not inviting him where you'll be all alone.  Even then, though.  

When I was at a popular singles resort many years ago I thought I was being so uber-cool in inviting a drunk guy I'd been making out with into my room.  I shared it with a roommate but she wasn't home.  He asked me to give him oral sex.  I said no.  He tried to push my head down. I said no.  He said "I'm bigger than you -I could make you" something like that.  Then he said he thought he might throw up from being drunk.  I believe he then fell asleep and I didn't kick him out (perhaps my roommate arrived).  Oh and I'd been hanging around him for a few days -nice clean cut guy who lived not far from me back home.  Please don't tell me "of course I wouldn't invite a drunk guy home" - because you don't know what medications or drugs strangers are taking, will take or might try to give you. 

My friend was raped in a car by a guy she met on match.com.  They dated, stopped dating, he asked some time later to meet for coffee.  In public.  She did and he slipped a date rape drug in her coffee when she went to the restroom. She woke up in the back seat of his car some time later and she's pretty sure he'd had intercourse with her.  Oh and she's highly educated ,etc.   Please get over yourself as far as how you're different.  You're not.  You're a woman who is invited married strangers into your home -and after intense -off putting conversations.  Those friends of yours- you really want them to come and rescue you and put themselves in harm's way?  And they're your tenants -of course they'll feel obligated.  All so you can continue a first meet in your home.

I always agreed with the late Doctor Joy Browne (who I had the privilege of meeting when she had her short-lived TV show) - that no matter how long the separation don't date till you're legally single at least a year.  This guy is married.  You're still relatively newly divorced.  What gives?

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, Wiseman2 said:

What "safety" concerns? None of these recent men seem to be creepy, do they? Perhaps too recent with the unraveling of their home life, but where did "safety" come from?

We noted that inviting men into her apartment or going to their homes when they've first met is an unsafe practice.

[boltnrun]

A man doesn't have to "seem to be 'creepy'" to be dangerous.  In fact, many men who commit or attempt sexual assault are described as nice, clean cut, professional, etc.  Their victims were completely taken by surprise.

The dirty, grunting, lecherous and leering man is a stereotype.   Those are easy to avoid; the charming, handsome sexual assaulter is harder to filter out.

My boss attempted to coerce me into having sex with him in our workplace years ago.  This was a business owner who was clean and well groomed and had a lovely girlfriend.  I'd been working for him for a couple of years so I knew him.  And still...

It's smart for everyone to be cautious, not just women.

[Batya33]

6 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

A man doesn't have to "seem to be 'creepy'" to be dangerous.  In fact, many men who commit or attempt sexual assault are described as nice, clean cut, professional, etc.  Their victims were completely taken by surprise.

The dirty, grunting, lecherous and leering man is a stereotype.   Those are easy to avoid; the charming, handsome sexual assaulter is harder to filter out.

My boss attempted to coerce me into having sex with him in our workplace years ago.  This was a business owner who was clean and well groomed and had a lovely girlfriend.  I'd been working for him for a couple of years so I knew him.  And still...

It's smart for everyone to be cautious, not just women.

One man who assaulted me on a subway train was creepy.  The others were- as far as I can remember - late 20s, corporate executive, clean cut, married; late 20s, educated, intelligent, clean cut (but drunk -mentioned him above); late 30s, highly educated, successful, clean cut.  

[Jibralta]

34 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

The dirty, grunting, lecherous and leering man is a stereotype.   Those are easy to avoid; the charming, handsome sexual assaulter is harder to filter out.

Soooo true.

[SherrySher]

12 hours ago, Hora said:

My tenants are actually friends. They are people that I used to work with for quite a few years, and would hang out with regularly. They're also getting a huge discount on rent because I preferred having people I know live in the building. So, I really don't think I'm abusing anything there.

You're putting other people at risk because you're not being responsible.

Anyone you date for less than 3 months, is in fact, a stranger. You have no idea who they are, what they are capable of, what's true in what they told you and what's not true.

It's not up to your friends to fix a possibly bad situation, just don't do it.

No reason to bring strange men back to your home.

And as Batya mentioned, assaults take minutes. It would be way too fast before they got there.

Choking someone would take less than a minute. Rape, less than 5-10 mins. Even more crazy stuff, such as stabbing, that would take seconds.

Erase all possible risks by just saying goodnight at the restaurant.

[Wiseman2]

On 3/20/2021 at 12:20 PM, Hora said:

 we had an 8-hour date! We met at a restaurant and stayed till closing time. - Although he was in my house, he didn't have grabby hands. 

It seems like the date dragged on way too long.  Try to make the first meeting brief.

You're a grown adult and if you want to invite someone in on the first meeting, that's your business.

However, try not to drag things out like this . It comes across as lonely desperate and too much time on your hands. Worse it attracts people who are desperate.

As far as safety. An ax murderer or rapist can do that on dates 1, 2,3,4, etc., etc.

People hookup with strangers all the time.Is it a good idea? No, but for many other reasons.

But the main thing is marathon first meets are a red flag. Next time,meet briefly. Then make sure you see his place first.

That way, if they're living with an "ex" and "emotionally separated", you'll see that first hand rather than allow 10 hours of storytelling.

That seems to be your achilles heel. The "separated" part.

[Hora]

@Wiseman2 I actually did see his place first. The restaurant where we ate was very close to his house. As he had offered to walk me home and it was quite chilly, he asked if I minded he quickly pops into his place to get a sweater. He offered me to come in but I just waited on the front porch (and his place is on a busy street with lots of foot traffic). It didn't look like anyone else was living there nor were there boxes everywhere like he just moved in. 

As for the length of dates, I actually agree. I prefer first dates to be shorter overall, and it's really rare that I spend so much time with someone the first time I meet them. In fact, that only happened one time before. That being said, I'm pretty go with the flow. If I'm having a good time and the conversation is stimulating, I don't feel like I need to take out my dating policy book.

I get the worry about assault. And I greatly sympathize with everyone who had bad experiences happen to them. And you are right, it can happened in seconds. The only time something like that happened to me was in my late teens when my boss at the restaurant I was working at tried to assault me in the kitchen during down time. I do tend to be pretty trusting where I currently live because it's a very safe neighbourhood, and I know all of my neighbours. And I think I'm overall a pretty trusting person. Knock on wood nothing bad has ever happened to me while dating (before my marriage and since). But it's true that all it takes is one time, and I should be more careful. I'm making a note of this. 

[smackie9]

I say go ahead and date. Nothing wrong with taking your time and seeing where it goes. Just observe, and set boundaries with yourself in what you are going to tolerate, and what you won't tolerate. If it doesn't work out so what. You end it and date others. It's just part of the process. As we get older most of the options we have are going to be people who are divorced/separated anyways, so it's kinda hard to avoid am I right?

[DancingFool]

I think one hard rule you need to make for yourself is that you don't get involved with anyone who is not yet fully divorced or is just fresh out of the divorce, like ink still drying. Just make that alone a hard NO.

Realize that nobody who is on a rebound is going to look you in the eye and tell you they are on a rebound. Of course they'll tell you how they've been checked out for years, good, done, ready for something new and want that new forever. It is bs. Sure, there may be some person out there who is the exception, but you need to stop living your life hoping for an exception. All it will lead to is bad relationships, a lot of frustration and essentially never getting to the point that you really want - that good quality stable partner.

Safety thing - when you are meeting men from online, you do not know them at all. It doesn't matter how safe your neighborhood is. Please start taking some common sense precautions - don't share where you live and don't share your last name or otherwise enough info that he can find you. It's not just that you can be assaulted, it's that he can also stalk you. As others already said, predators do not ever look like the creepy stereotype, more like the nice, educated, well dressed, sparkly personality, made you feel great kind of a guy.

As for this guy in particular, what raised my eyebrow isn't so much oversharing, which is a red flag, but that he actually invited you to overshare as well. That right there is consciously manipulative and good on you that you picked up on that. Of course he didn't press you, but don't assume that he won't find ways to work around your reluctance. Predatory manipulative people do not bulldoze as that will just spook you away, they sneak around, make you feel comfortable. Oversharing does create that illusion of intimacy and instant connection. So in the future, another hard rule for yourself - keep your initial dates brief and don't fool yourself into thinking that long = good. It doesn't. Have a handy excuse to end the date at a reasonable time and then see if he pursues another date or not.

 

[Batya33]

Agree.  I don't buy for a minute that it's because you're "too trusting" - safe neighborhood/know neighbors -nothing to do with meeting a stranger.  You're making these choices because it's easier and because you are attracted to the person and you tell yourself you're a "go with the flow" person - it's much harder to pause, have a talk with yourself and do what makes common sense rather than act on impulse.  I always exchanged last names so i could google the person.  Saved me several wasted first meets had I met the person.  Once you give an email address etc it's pretty easy for a would be stalker, anyway.

Try not to indulge in the "but every situation is different" when it comes to safety or the emotional risks to you and your family of dating married men or newly divorced men.  JMHO.