Justified cheating - where is the line?

[Seraphim]

There women with kink and high sex drives. Pick one of them. You’ll be much happier that way.

[SherrySher]

How is that morally more justified than cheating? I know nothing here, that I admit.

 

No one said that she is justifiable on how she is behaving, but two wrongs don't make a right. It's not okay to start telling yourself she behaves badly so you can too.

If it's gotten to be that bad that you're considering cheating, the best thing to do is end the relationship. It's better to hurt someone honestly than dishonestly.

 

I don't really like your "owe" mindset about a relationship.

Same.

Your ideas of how two partners "owe" this and "owe" that, sounds more rigid and more of a business rather than love. A relationship is more about hope and promise, and not about force or control.

Perhaps you're just using the wrong terms.

 

As for sex every second day, I would say that it's a bit higher than typical. I can't give you straight out stats, but on my best guess, I would say average couples have sex a few times a week, some as little as once or twice. And that's okay. As long as the two people are happy with that, nothing wrong with it at all.

 

The problem comes in when one partner wants more sex and the other doesn't. What you are also doing is attaching blame and resentment and assuming lack of feelings from her, etc for her not having as high of a libido as you.

None of that might even be true. She simply might not want sex as often as you.

 

Your options are fairly obvious, leave her or masturbate on days she is not wanting to have sex. The third option is of course to sit down with her, be an honest partner and tell her this is a problem and consider an open relationship.

 

That's it. Those are literally your only options as a decent, respectable man. Cheating should never cross one's mind. It is most definitely the worst thing you can do to your partner.

[boltnrun]

I am a woman and I do not lose interest in sex with my partner and I do not look for something new and shiny after a period of time. And I like sex every day. With my partner.

 

Did she tell you she wanted sex with you as often as you want it and that she was as kinky as you? And then she went back on it? Do you feel misled or deceived if she did?

[Andrina]

Why aren't you willing to go to a psychologist, to see if you're the problem instead of the women in your life? Here's an excerpt from an article on sex addiction:

 

THE BODY OF A SEX ADDICT can become his whole world. The urgent messages he receives from his brain—I’m depressed, I’m lonely, I’m frightened, I’m angry—drown out everything else around him. He can’t feel happiness, except as a physical sensation.

 

Arousal and orgasm, as he knows them, are not lived experience but rather a retreat from it. They are a simulation of all that may be absent from his life: joy, intimacy, a feeling of accomplishment. They are a kind of biochemical brute-force attempt to blot out an overwhelmingly bad feeling with an overwhelmingly good one. In the space between arousal and orgasm, he finds a fleeting calm. He strives to prolong it, to escape time, escape his own mind. He lurches between wretchedness and euphoria, looping back on himself endlessly. He wants to be outside himself; instead he becomes his own prison.

 

The pursuit of that elusive high can drive sex addicts to escalate into increasingly risky behavior: from exhibitionism and habitual anonymous sex to, in certain cases, a fascination—even in people who have always preferred adults—with child pornography.

 

Eli Coleman, who has studied this phenomenon, says that some of these men are working out conflicts about their sexuality. But some are not. Instead, he says, they may have other, intricately tangled motives: to express self-hatred through behavior they may regard as debasing, to subjugate a partner they regard as more physically powerful than a woman, to feel desired by and intimate with a father who was emotionally distant.

[bluecastle]

I'm also perplexed by this "owe" mindset, more so in how you've outlined it. There really is a whole different way to approach this stuff, the "business," one could say, of fellow human beings, connecting with them, and sharing space with them, literally and figuratively. When our approach to anything repeatedly proves to not work, as yours seems to have proved faulty, it's always a good moment to open up to the idea that maybe there is a different approach that will work better.

 

Like you, I'm in a relationship, still on the newer side at a year and change, but we now share a house, are building a life together with shared hopes and intentions. Still, I don't feel either of us owe the other anything and suspect I'll say the same thing a decade from now, if we're still together. Not rent, not cleanliness, not fidelity, nothing. It is a compulsory activity, us being together, not obligatory, like every relationship I've been in since middle school. The fuel is faith and respect, not duty.

 

Of course, were one of us to go off the rails—no longer paying the bills, no longer being faithful—it would be the end of the things. But things could end with much less drama. My girlfriend is free to leave me any time she wants, for any reason she deems worthy, as am I. She is a person more than she is my partner. That we choose each other—and would, I have faith, choose to work through things before reacting in a destructive way—without being owed anything is what makes it special, powerful, and, yes, pretty spicy. There is space to continue exploring the unknown together and the unknown that is the other person. There is no debt.

 

Because here's something worth reflecting on: it sucks to feel you owe anyone anything. Think of a credit card bill. It is a part of adulthood that sucks, especially if we spend more than we make. Mounting debt sucks. Adds pressure to the day to day, shrinks your world. Yeah, there are certain parts of life where we take on debt, but these are logistical matters: credit cards, as mentioned, or mortgages. Even there contentment is predicated on making decisions where the debt—what we owe—is manageable and realistic, not suffocating: debt we can service without it taking up too much of our mental and emotional energy.

 

Applying this debt-service mindset to intimacy, physical or emotional, is just a surefire way to kill the buzz, in my opinion, because you stack the deck against you. I can't help but think that may be part of your conundrum here, given that this is an issue you have encountered time and again in matters of intimate relationships and with intimacy in particular. You're trying, best I can see, to hedge hard against uncertainty—to eliminate the possibility of something not working, of "failure." But in the process you are reducing your humanity, and hers. You are partner first, person second, and so is she, in your eyes.

 

But why is sex generally pretty hot and spicy early on? Because there is less pressure, no rules, just faith, feeling, attraction, connection, two people. You have to continue to cultivate that inside a relationship, alongside someone, rather than kill all that out of fear of it not working out. And you cultivate it not just in the bedroom, but primarily outside of it, through remaining curious and open to...well, to whatever comes and to the fact, as thrilling as it frightening, that you can never really fully know or possess another person, even inside a lifelong commitment.

 

A heavy question I can't help but ask: Do you feel, in your heart of hearts, that you are a good person? I think you are, mind you, because I believe approximately 99.9 percent of humans are good people. But I ask because I get the sense that you are trying to "atone" for something, in the bigger picture of being you in the world, in your skin. That you are trying to prove goodness, but almost with an edge of vengeance, and that you've pinned a lot of this identity—of being a good man, a good person—on who you are inside a relationship and whether you can make a relationship last and work, even if it is not satisfying you.

 

More pressure, in short. Pressure on you, pressure on your partner to validate your goodness, a paradigm in which your sexual appetite becomes something of a "not good" quality, a trigger of despair and self-loathing, this martyr identity that seems to be a source of jagged comfort at the expense of more authentic comfort.

 

Your sexual needs, as outlined? Honestly, they strike me as normal enough, certainly familiar in my own romantic history. Maybe not achievable with this woman, but that's not a crime or a sin or a verdict on your goodness, just a potential mismatch. But since it's something you've run into again and again? Well, I honestly think it's less connected to the left field nature of your libido than to your brain, a left field manner of processing things. Maybe because you're afraid of being alone, or afraid of being a bad man, or afraid of the unknown, but it seems to me that in romantic partnership you are putting a premium on control and certainty at the expense of curiosity, of fostering a mutually curious environment, of celebrating all that can still be explored—not just sexually, but more generally.

 

You clearly don't want to cheat, so don't cheat. But that means being open to the idea that this won't work out, that this woman isn't your person. Ironically, per the above, I think letting that idea into things, rather than creating a system to eradicate it through behavioral bartering, might be one of the keys to enjoying a more enriching form of intimacy, in the bedroom and beyond its walls.

[DancingFool]

I mean.....there are soooo many women out there with a libido and sexual interest that easily match and even exceed your own. Why are you so unwilling to get out and find them? Serious question.

 

You talk about this girl giving you an impression of a dirty mind....buuut....what about actions? Did you two actually do anything or was it all smoke and mirrors and an illusion that she might be into things. I'm really wondering how much you got caught up in the fantasy of potential rather than noticing that reality isn't matching up.

 

In reality, you are seriously miserable, the relationship isn't working. You are not a cheater and you know this deep down. You talked about an open relationship and you already know that it's not an option. How do you think she will feel when you get caught cheating? You will get caught. Every cheater gets caught. You'd rather destroy her mentally and emotionally and leave her with life long scars of damage than break up? Really? That's pretty evil on your end and the opposite of love or caring about another human being. The logical and only clean solution is to end this, so why are you so categorically refusing that as an option? Do you want to harm her in some dark recess of your mind as a sort of retaliation for refusing sex? I mean...I don't even know really wth is up with you.

 

Another serious question is why do you insist on telling yourself that a high libido woman doesn't exist? I mean....that's just....silly.....OP.... It's almost like you are actually enjoying this drama and torment.....

 

Your refusal to end the relationship that's not working is worth an appointment with a shrink in and of itself.

[lostandhurt]

I think you are going about this from the wrong angle.

 

You are not trying to solve the problem, you are just trying to medicate it with cheating. If you cheat she will find out and the relationship will end and you will be right where you don't want to be.

 

I was with my ex wife for 20 years and her sexual desire for me stayed at a pretty high level throughout all those years. All the gf's I have had it was the same. I don't think I just got lucky, I think it is because I focus solely on the woman's pleasure and zero on mine. I know I will be satisfied because the woman I love and I am with is satisfied. I read a study once that showed when a woman has really good sex she will want it more and more whereas when men have really good sex their desire wains. Our drives are different and our needs are way different and unless you figure that out you are doomed to keep repeating this with any woman you are with.

 

Frankly your words show me that you think she owes you sex as a duty. You will be hard pressed to find a single woman that will agree and go along with that idea. Phrases like "taking care of MY needs" shows that you put yourself first in this when you should put her first. Trust me if you rocked her world in bed she is going to come back for more and more. Who wouldn't??? Have you ever pleasured her with no thought of her reciprocating? Have you ever given her a back rub with out an ulterior motive? Have you ever just cuddle with her and given her a passionate kiss and told her you love her and go right back to cuddling with out trying to get into her panties?

 

If I were you I would put all my energies into learning how to be the best lover you can be and hope you get another shot with the woman you say you love so deeply.

 

Step one is a heartfelt apology for all your attempts at coercion to get what you want with a promise to not pressure her ever again.

Step two is to get some books on how to pleasure a woman and on what women really want. Make sure all the authors are women!!! Read them over and over again not because you want to get sex from her, but because you want to give the woman you love the very most pleasure possible and nothing more.

 

You need to do a total 180 on the way you have been thinking...

 

Lost

[reinventmyself]

 

So, find a way to rebuild the desire instead of making it an obligation, and you will find she might be more interested.

This^^

A sure fire way to kill a sex drive is to turn it in to some sort of obligation.

 

. .and why lostandhurt is still single, I'll never understand :)

[bluecastle]

I have experienced it myself, and as I mentioned earlier I have never cheated anyone I have been with because of that experience. I was destroyed from inside, and in a way I don't believe I ever recovered to a person I was before it. It scarred me for life.

 

These three sentences jumped out at me.

 

I'm just shooting in the dark a bit, but I can't help but wonder about the contours of that "life" scar. Because a narrative that comes to my mind? I wonder if your sense of curiosity and wonder about women got snuffed out when you were cheated on, and since then your relationships have been built on foundations of fear rather than curiosity.

 

As myself and others have pointed out, your view of your girlfriend, and perhaps women in general, seems highly focused on your needs, not theirs. Yes, we're talking a lot about your sexual needs here, but I can't help but see those as being a subset of a bigger need: the need to ensure that you have control, so you can get what you want without getting hurt.

 

This kind of self-absorption—an obsession with our own pain and pleasure—presents real problems with intimacy, physical and emotional. If you can't think about your girlfriend and/or women as existing outside of your own pain/pleasure system, you will send the message to them that you are not genuinely curious about their own unique systems of being. That is a turn off.

 

Again, not sure about your timeline, but I do wonder whether this has been an issue primarily since you were "scarred for life."

[Lambert]

These three sentences jumped out at me.

 

I'm just shooting in the dark a bit, but I can't help but wonder about the contours of that "life" scar. Because a narrative that comes to my mind? I wonder if your sense of curiosity and wonder about women got snuffed out when you were cheated on, and since then your relationships have been built on foundations of fear rather than curiosity.

 

As myself and others have pointed out, your view of your girlfriend, and perhaps women in general, seems highly focused on your needs, not theirs. Yes, we're talking a lot about your sexual needs here, but I can't help but see those as being a subset of a bigger need: the need to ensure that you have control, so you can get what you want without getting hurt.

 

This kind of self-absorption—an obsession with our own pain and pleasure—presents real problems with intimacy, physical and emotional. If you can't think about your girlfriend and/or women as existing outside of your own pain/pleasure system, you will send the message to them that you are not genuinely curious about their own unique systems of being. That is a turn off.

 

Again, not sure about your timeline, but I do wonder whether this has been an issue primarily since you were "scarred for life."

good points and I wonder has the OP even considered what his cheating would do to his partner?

 

To know how painful it is to be cheated on and to not even mention the impact of his actions on anyone but himself.... telling...

[bluecastle]

good points and I wonder has the OP even considered what his cheating would do to his partner?

 

To know how painful it is to be cheated on and to not even mention the impact of his actions on anyone but himself.... telling...

 

In fairness, he has mentioned this many times—not wanting to inflict the pain he's experienced.

 

I'm just trying to nudge here and there, best I can, to help see this in a bigger light, as I don't think it ultimately has much to do with an abnormally high sex drive so much as trying to create and sustain a romantic connection through unsustainable means.

[Wiseman2]

Who are these women who will have wild crazy no strings sex with you when you are living with someone? What storyline will you tell them? The ball and chain at home doesn't understand me?

 

Where will you have this wild kinky sex? A motel? How well have you thought this out? This is why escorts are an option. It's not cheating if you tell your live-in gfs.. This gives them the option to leave and find a guy who loves them for the long haul. Why do you live with them? Why not stay free and clear to pursue new/novel sex?

I have even told her once that she has no right to demand loyalty from me if she neglects my needs this way

[lostandhurt]

This^^

A sure fire way to kill a sex drive is to turn it in to some sort of obligation.

 

. .and why lostandhurt is still single, I'll never understand :)

 

Awww thank you.

 

I am still single because I know the value of my love and commitment and I simply haven't met the right woman yet. Had a few near misses but I haven't given up.

 

OP I really hope you take everyone's words to heart and take a step back and put yourself in her shoes. Sex has become a chore for her and who wants to do chores???

 

Lost