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GENERAL QUESTION, WHAT CAN BE FORGIVEN and WHAT IS UNFORGIVABLE


Mets6986
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I know that everyone is different and what may be forgivable to one may not be forgivable to the another, But I am curious what things do you think are forgivable (whether that forgiveness comes right away or takes time) or is just so bad that no time can mend the wound, I recently lost a friend, I lost her for basically two reasons I overdid it and sent two many messages and texts and she blocked me, That may or may not be unforgivable, What I do think is unforgivable however is what I did AFTER that I was desperate to move on but I just had to make sure she at least saw a letter I wrote so I opened up an old facebook I closed and posted it on her wall (I said nothing bad but that does not matter) and she and I no longer speak to me. I did walk up to her after 3 weeks of no talking and told her that I am sorry (Nothing else I was afraid I would take away from the apology and I said I know you never want to speak to me again and I will leave you alone.(The next day something weird happened because she smiled at me and I awkwardly smiled back but said nothing and I am going to keep my promise and leave her alone; BUT MY STORY WHICH I POSTED ELSEWHERE IS DONE I used what happened to me (Well more to the point what I did wrong) as an example of things that are forgivable and not forgivable. So What DO YOU think is forgivable and what is not? Have a great day

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Most things really don't rise to the level of needing forgiveness in the first place. Even when they do, just because someone forgives you, doesn't mean that they will want you in their life. Friendships are entirely voluntary, OP, and everyone is free to check out of one any time they want to just because they feel like it. It would be much healthier for you to learn to accept that life changes, people move on and figure out how to deal with that change more gracefully, with less anxiety and self flagellation and drama. When you delve into the whole "I can/can't be forgiven" - it's just drama. The more dramatic you are, the more people will opt to walk away from you. Learn some self control.

 

Btw, it's not about her forgiving you. It's about you learning how to forgive yourself, be kinder to yourself, judge yourself less harshly so that you can move forward from your mistakes instead of getting stuck and obsessing about it.

Edited by DancingFool
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If someone forgives you, it doesn't mean they accept you back in their life the same as before. This story sounds familiar? Don't you work with her. I think you better stop, or you will receive a restraining order, particularly since you bypassed her blocking you to do it after she asked you to stop. Please seek counseling as well. you are very obsessive.

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You've created four threads about this situation over the past 3 weeks. Has none of the insights or advice you received been useful?

 

Does it bother you so much because you cannot change the outcome? We cannot control how others feel or react. It's something we have to just accept.

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Everything can be forgiven. :-)

 

But like others have said, that doesn't mean she wants you in her life in any way.

 

Love and attachment makes people do stupid things...sounds like you just lost yourself for a bit. It happens :-)

 

Be kind to yourself...know that we all mess up. One day, she will know this too. :-)

 

Take care.

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No boundaries. Why did you walk up to to her after she told you to leave her alone? It is very disrespectful not to follow people's wishes.

 

Your behavior is obsessive.

 

 

We don't have all the details, but sometimes it's hard to let go of someone you love...or are friends with for a long time. We don't know the details.

 

Not saying you are wrong, or we all shouldn't accept boundaries...but when you lose someone close to you...it can rip a void in your psyche, and it's hard to just let go. :-)

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A lot can be forgiven if there is sincere remorse and apology in addition to no more repeated bad, unacceptable behavior. People forgive when they see harsh lessons learned from the past and new, healthy habits put into practice with the most earnest effort. However, just because people forgive, it doesn't mean they'll trust you and forget the past. Forgive means to move on, not hold onto grudges and go forward with life. Whenever people signal that they forgive you by moving on, it doesn't mean they want to rekindle friendship or a relationship with you. They have boundaries. What they're saying is, yes, I forgive you but I want to move on with my life without you. It's not always stemming from hatred either. It stems from wanting a fresh start, putting past unpleasant experiences behind them and starting fresh. You can be respectful by honoring another person's wishes to be left alone. If you see each other often such as at the workplace or campus, remain cordial, be kind, natural, professional, pleasant, civil and be a peaceful person. Do all that without acting weird. And, back off. Give people plenty of time and space permanently. You can't undo the past. All you can do is change from the better, learn from your past mistakes and become a better, improved person for life. Then you will learn to navigate yourself wisely when it comes to human interaction. Never hound and badger people with texts, emails, messages and the like. People don't want to be irritated by someone who is obsessed with them. Get a life by having your own life outside focusing on others. Be happy and secure with yourself. Then you'll make others around you feel more comfortable and at ease.

 

People will come and go throughout your life. They'll waft in and out. Certain people will remain in your life permanently whereas others will fade away. This is how life is. Learn to accept this.

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We don't have all the details, but sometimes it's hard to let go of someone you love...or are friends with for a long time. We don't know the details.

 

Not saying you are wrong, or we all shouldn't accept boundaries...but when you lose someone close to you...it can rip a void in your psyche, and it's hard to just let go. :-)

 

The details are in his previous threads. He has started three others. In those threads he does clearly state that she has asked him to leave her alone and his response was to approach her in person AND to attempt to communicate with her using a false social media profile.

 

At that point, letting go is an absolute must unless one wants criminal charges.

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As I said my story is over I apologized and I told her I know she never wants to speak to me and I will keep that promise and by keeping it I mean Not creating situations at work wehte I need to speak to her (If a real one occurr well then so be it) Not initiating hellos but I will respond civilly if she ever says it but that is all. I made a lot of mistakes and I made things worse. What ever happens in the future is up to her All I know is that I am going to keep my promise and leave her alone. Not only for her sake but for my sake as well.

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First off I want to thank you all for your advice and replies they have been a great help and just talking about it has helped put me on a let's say more healthy path. Maybe I was wrong in saying that what I did was unforgivable or forgivable maybe I do not want to give myself false hope and on the other hand maybe that is what I was doing when I mentioned that she smiled at me the day after the apology. I should not do that. All I know is that I liked this person very much to say the least and I crossed a lot of lines I should not have crossed (It is easy to see that now but at the time when I was all filled with anxiety and feeling lost I did not I just wanted to fix things and make things better and I made things worse it was like I was drowning in quicksand. I waited 3 weeks after she stopped talking to me before I said I was sorry and told her that I know she never wants to speak to me and that I promise not to leave her alone.Now I know some have said that I should have not even apologized because she wanted to be alone and I understand your point. BUT I am sorry I felt that I at least owed her that because what I did was so bad and I do care about her, Now I do not know if my apology made her feel better or angered her I do not know (She just listened) I cannot control that. Also I now know that just because she might forgive me does not mean that she wants to be friends I also know that she may never forgive me and I also know that things can happen like she might forgive me now but may not want to be friends now but maybe in the future she will (and who knows maybe in the future I may want to be friends but then again maybe I wont I do not know.) All I know is that I no longer want to be a negative in her life anymore.Yes of course I still have feelings for her but I need to put them away and DO THE RIGHT THING AND BE CORDIAL BUT LEAVE HER ALONE and then maybe just maybe if she sees that I am no longer that person she had to block and all that well then maybe someday we can be friends again or maybe not, The one personal thing about my own feelings that I will say is that when we became friends she touched my heart because some of the things she told reminded me of things I went through and she had low self esteem and I just wanted to make her encourage her make her feel special and loved and I really thought I was doing a good thing until I saw she restricted me on facebook and I just broke down crying (alone) and that sent me into all that stuff I wrote about where I just made things worse. I know that we may never be friends again but I am going to change back to what I was before all this because I at least want her to see me as the person she used to be friends with the person who treated her and others with kindness and caring (Hey maybe that is why she smiled at me because she saw me helping someone else like I used to help her who knows) instead of how she sees me now as an annoying friend and pest and Yes I know it is ALL MY FAULT but it still hurts because it seems all the good I did is lost, I do know this moving forward I wll still be kind and helpful to others but I will guard my heart even and that includes her if we ever do become friends again

Edited by Mets6986
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The ONE thing I do not understand as far as myself is concerned is WHY? What I mean is for the most part I have healthy relationships with most of my co worker and family and outside friends so WHY did it happen with this person? I mean at this time two years ago I did not even know this person even existed and it was not until over a year go we started becoming friends and it was her that started to friendship (I am usually quiet at work but I will talk to someone if they want to talk to me and as I get along with people. SO WHY did this person get into my soul like this I mean Yes I am attracted to her BUT I was never going to try anything with her and I have been attracted to other people I have worked with and I NEVER HAD THE HIGH AND LOWS that I had with this friend. Yes finally I am going to learn from my mistakes and leave her alone but when I think of the whole friendship when I am alone and it brings tears to my eyes (I know men do not generally cry about these things so maybe I am too sensitive I have to admit) In all my life I do not think I ever had a friendship that lasted a short time (A liittle over a year that gave me what felt like the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. Who knows maybe THAT is why GOD put her in my life for a brief time. What I mean is I remember a while befpre I met her I started to feel that I could not feel anymore What I mean is nothing really made me happy and nothing made me sad I was just on auto pilot so to speak so maybe God put this person in my life to show me that Yes I can feel both good and bad, Obviously I did a bad job handling my feelings in this case. Just a thought

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Nobody can 'undo' an instance of 'overdoing'. It's not that someone can't 'forgive' the mistake, but forgiveness doesn't mean that they'll want to do lunch again. People can forgive from afar--and keep it at that.

 

The antidote to verbal diarrhea is NOT to speak more, it's to go quiet and allow time and distance to do their job. This doesn't mean that someone who's been overexposed to you will ever want more exposure--it means that you've avoided compounding the problem, and so civility can be possible when your paths cross in the future. However, if you abuse any instance of civility by going back to address the incident, you'll just reset the issue back to the initial offense, and you'll prove to that person WHY they never want to deal with you again. So skip any fantasies about rekindling the friendship, and settle for forgiveness from afar.

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You've created four threads about this situation over the past 3 weeks. Has none of the insights or advice you received been useful?

 

Does it bother you so much because you cannot change the outcome? We cannot control how others feel or react. It's something we have to just accept.

Yes everything has been very useful and has helped me stop my destructive behavior, YesI have come to terms that I cant change the outcome, What I am trying to figure out is How did I allow this person to get into my heart and soul like she did because that does not happen and How I avoid that from happening again. I cant say I regret anything I did that made her feel good about herself but somewhere I crosses a line or overdiid it and that but everything else I do regtry but I cant take it back and I know my friendship with her is over, I just do not want to make the same mistake again,
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I agree catfeeder I cannot do all the overdoing with the worst being the last (Writing that letter on her facebook wall) It has been one month since then and other than apologizing 3 weeks later I have not spoken to her and as I said before I am going to respect her wished and not talk to her. All I can do is be quiet (We work tohether and I mentioned and as I said before I am not going to look for reasons to talk to her. When I apologized that day I thought that was it and it probably is but the next day when she smiled at me for some reason and I smiled nack I allowed myself to have some fantasy that ibye leaving her alone that someday the firendship might be rekindled, You are right I need to let go of any such fantasies and just leave her alone and whatever does or does not happen will take care of itself and if by some chance she does talk to me in the future I will never talk about the past for the reasons you gave above UNLESS she asks me directly

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  • 3 weeks later...

Im guessing you're a guy.

 

Yeah. You over did it. She knew you liked her and she didn't feel the same. It would have been dangerous for her to respond cause you would have just gotten more and more attracted to her.

 

She smiled at you to tell you that you're a good guy but nobody on Earth can handle that much attention.

 

I did this to a girl to a lesser degree.

 

You wanted to see if she read what you wrote and you wanted to know if she wanted you not to talk to her.

 

A guy would have flat out said. Leave me alone. But a girl can't say that to a guy. Cause girls are subject to violence and she was afraid you'd lose your temper.

 

At some point in the past she saw you in a state where you did not get your way and you handled it badly. Or she saw this in someone else and related it to you.

 

Or she had complicated circumstances that prevented her from having a relationship with you and she didn't want you involved.

 

You sound like you were willing to do anything to prolong this friendship/relationship, and it was obvious.that you would have intervened in any way possible, even talking to other parties involved. She knew that would be messy by the way you relentlessly adresed her and was avoiding any possible foray. She might have been protecting you.

 

It's a good thing that she smiled at you. And that means a lot. She sees you're a great guy who will do anything to get a relationship with someone you really want. She sees that that is terrific. And even though you can't be with her, she definitely knows you'll excell in the relationship field when you're more successful.

 

It also shows diligent problem solving which will basically pave your road in life as long as you dont get distracted by other side of fence bull.

 

The most important thing for you to do is appreciate that meaningful smile from her, not as if it were from her but as if it were from everyone in the world. The world has just smiled on you.

 

If you let your frustration and possible broken heart win over you, you will descend into the deepest hell that anyone in eternity has ever delved.

 

That is because you are so determined and diligent that if you get the slightest bit negative you will go all the way.

 

Dispell negativity hypnosis on youtube. Or any other thing possible to that garbage of being rejected out of your subconscious.

 

Also you obviously want a deep relationship with someone. Don't get too deep unless you've hit base 13. People appreciate little things. You've got to see a new relationship as a little bird whose afraid of taking a seed out of your hand.

 

It's hunger has to out weigh it's fear of getting crushed. You've got to genuinely look like your not going to crush it. And it's got to be a better seed than the others which are laying all over the place.

 

Peace bro.

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  • 1 year later...
On 5/20/2019 at 8:14 AM, catfeeder said:

Nobody can 'undo' an instance of 'overdoing'. It's not that someone can't 'forgive' the mistake, but forgiveness doesn't mean that they'll want to do lunch again. People can forgive from afar--and keep it at that.

 

The antidote to verbal diarrhea is NOT to speak more, it's to go quiet and allow time and distance to do their job. This doesn't mean that someone who's been overexposed to you will ever want more exposure--it means that you've avoided compounding the problem, and so civility can be possible when your paths cross in the future. However, if you abuse any instance of civility by going back to address the incident, you'll just reset the issue back to the initial offense, and you'll prove to that person WHY they never want to deal with you again. So skip any fantasies about rekindling the friendship, and settle for forgiveness from afar.

 

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What is considered forgivable and unforgivable?  That's a loaded question.  I'll give you my definition which may differ from others. 

I forgive people for minor infractions and if they happen to sincerely apologize for their missteps, it's easy for me to appreciate their apology and move on quickly. 

If it's a transgression which transforms into a vicious cycle of gaslighting, there will never be any forgiveness coming from me whatsoever. 

Unfortunately, I've been on the receiving end of this sick mistreatment so I try to forgive in my own way.  However, forgive does not mean forget.  Forgive means to move on, not hold onto grudges, not have feelings of ill will and keep going forward; not backwards.  You can forgive a person while steering the ship or being in the driver's seat from now on.  This means, you control the dynamic such and enforcing healthy boundaries.  You're not at a war with words.  You walk away and often times this means, the relationship is basically dead.  You can remain peaceful, civil and polite but it's as far as it goes; no more, no less.

Regarding harassment or relentless electronic messages, social media or what have you, if you don't exercise self control and common sense, people reach their breaking point and they're done with you.  They let you go and wish to break away.  This often means either estrangement, ignoring, blocking, deleting, giving you the cold shoulder or reducing all contact to just a superficial relationship or friendship.  It's a passive reaction and it works. 

For people who've had enough of you and no longer wish to engage, you need to let it go and let them go.  Give them what they want.  If they don't wish to be bothered anymore, then don't bother them.  Respect and honor her wishes and leave her alone.  Many people want permanent time and space. 

In the future, learn to behave and exercise self control.  If you're not sure, then don't write nor say it.  Err on the side of caution. 

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Despite all the warnings I got I had to hit rock bottom or come as close as possible to it before I made a real effort to change things and I hurt people. I hurt my wife because I had strong emotional feelings for another woman. (I never even knew about emotional cheating before this) I hurt the young lady I was friends with because I went from someone she saw as a kind caring friend into an annoying friend and pest.  After I hit rock bottom my wife and I talked about things. I offered to quit my job but since I was there for so long and I was waiting on a transfer we decided that I would stay. I avoided all contact with her, However in therapy I discovered how I had thought I was a blessing in that girl's life I figured out that she was really the blessing in mine, (That;s a future long post maybe) but I will share two I got my wife back better than I ever thought possible (although I still need a lot of work) and I came face to face with how harmful my addiction to porn was because even though I would never have started a sexual relationship with this girl for two reasons 1 I was married and 2 Even if I was not married there was a huge age gap between us and in my mind if I had gone that route if I was single it would have meant I did not care about her and I did. The bottom line is I lost control of myself and my feelings. As for working with her after things came to a head I 100 percent left her alone. There was one day when we passed each other going to the bathroom neither of us looked at each other or said a word but all I could think is how sad it all was and that it was all my fault. During this time I had to miss work for a month to have a tumor (that thank God turned out to be benigned) One day I got frustrated and just yelled at these young people on their phone I just got overhelmed at work and I do not know if it was my upcoming surgery or what but I asked my supervisor if I could speak to the group and I did not make eye contact with anyone and I could not stop my hands from shaking I said I was out of line and I had already hurt people I cared about this year and  I got out of there. I don't know but soon after a friend who had told me to leave her alone told me that the girl wanted to be friends with me again, I did not see that coming I was so convinced after the way I was that she would never want to speak to me again. How did I feel? I was both Happy and scared, I was scared because I had been obssessed in the past with this friendship I told the friend Please tell her that I do not want to be friends but I am happy that she forgave me or something along those lines, After that we still left each other alone but the tension was gone. There was one time after I came back after surgery and I tripped and fell over a box she asked if I was ok. I did have one last thing I wanted to talk to her about I had found this book called Conversation with the Devil by Napoloan Hill and I walked up to her one day and I highly recoomended  that she read it now or many years from now. I don't know if she will but she was gracious about it and listened. The very next day I was notified that the Union wanted to get into touch with me and my transfer came through and this hit me emotionally because I was supposed to go a few years ealier and it got cancelled just before I became friends with her and it ended after telling her about the book. Maybe she will read the book and it will bless her life I hope so. But for me It was like God put her in my life for a reason ( Afew moths before I met her I woke up one day and said to no one I can't feel I am not sad, happy whatever I just am(  I of course do not know but sometimes I feel that God put her in my life as a blessing but at the same time making her young enough so that I would not break my moral compass. I had to go through the bad and the good. Now I did too be honest break a promise to my wife in saying goodbye to her but I wanted to let go and move on and I wanted her to know what she meant to me and let her know that I wished her a happy life. When we were friends she had told me she wanted to be an author and I told her that if someday I saw a book she wrote I would be happy for her. I was saying goodbye forever to her. No facebook no nothing. I knew when we first became friends that when work separated us that would be it because I would have no place in a young woman's life and maybe I did too much and I became obsessed and addictive or whatever/ Also I wanted her to know what she meant to me and also that this person who was obssessed and lost was letting go. I have to confess I did give her a going away gift that I had inscribed on the pen her initials and the letters MJBYLYAKY Which means may Jesus Bless You Love You and Keep You (It was a gift idea I had done in the past for my wife (did not go over well) amd my Aunt who loved it) This week it will be one year since saying Goodbye forever. I do from time to time reflect on different things,LIke Why of all the people I met at my job did this young lady have an impact like that on me. As for her I don't know if this makes any sense I miss her but I never want to see her again and if by some miracle I do I hope it is many years from now and that all her hopes and dreams have come true. After we  said goodbye I had another shift I was saying goodbye to another friend who knew about everything. He asked me and I said We ended on a good note (which looked impossible) I said to him I really did love her and He said I know you did. The two things I felt most guilty about concerning her is my obssessive behavior and the fact that I did become sexually attracted to her and fantasized about her and the reason that made me feel so guilty was not because I was sexually attracted to a beautiful young woman I had been sexually attracted to and fantasized about a lot of women through the years and it all stayed in my mind no where esle and the same went for my seuxal attraction to my friend and No I do not feel guilty about any sex fantasies evem though I am married because I would never act on them. But the reason I felt so guilty about being sexually attracted to her is that when I became her friend it was not about sex or anything like that. I do not know what it was but when we became friends maybe it was because I was in an emotionally vulnerable state maybe God heard my I can't feel anything prayer all I know is when she told me things that reminded me of my life (Like getting picked on) For reasons I do not know my heart went out to her. Sorry for the extremely long post

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On a side note my wife has a friend (Who I know but I am not supposed  to know because he told her in confidence) My wife told me that He is extremely attracted to this very young girl many years his junior. The friend who I met and like is a good guy but he is going down almost the same dangerous path I almost went down. Part of me want to tell my wife Ask him How He feels about the girl because if he truly cares about and loves her in any way. He will let go. But If I tell my wife this I would opening the wound and it would reopen the wound I caused my wife because of my feelings for the girl and as much as I think my advice might help my wife's friend I do not thnk I should.

 

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3 minutes ago, Mets6986 said:

On a side note my wife has a friend (Who I know but I am not supposed  to know because he told her in confidence) My wife told me that He is extremely attracted to this very young girl many years his junior. The friend who I met and like is a good guy but he is going down almost the same dangerous path I almost went down. Part of me want to tell my wife Ask him How He feels about the girl because if he truly cares about and loves her in any way. He will let go. But If I tell my wife this I would opening the wound and it would reopen the wound I caused my wife because of my feelings for the girl and as much as I think my advice might help my wife's friend I do not thnk I should.

 

Just to clarify When I same same path I almost went down I obvious did from an emotional level and if I had not been raised with some sort of moral compass it could have been much worse

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I don't want you to feel hurt but I do want to tell you about human nature regarding forgiveness.  Many times as hard as it is, people truly and really work on forgiving others.  However, here's the deal:  Once a person is forgiven and people try their best to move on, former trust in those who've wronged them is basically dead, I'm sad to say.  Trust is permanently and irrevocably broken.

I've been wronged by several close people in my life.  My memory is quite vivid regarding their viciously mad gasligting tirades and the whole ugly past.  Sure, the dust has since settled, everyone recoiled and went back to their four corners.  All is peaceful. 

Since I don't have memory loss regarding pain inflicted upon me, I say, "One and done, two if you're lucky."  I don't wish to be bothered anymore.  I want to be left alone, feel safe and protected in my controlled bubble.  I think a lot of people are this way.  It's a way to guarantee 100% security.  I don't wish to risk repeats with perpetrators because the price is simply too high to gamble away and most likely will lose again big time.  "Once bitten, twice shy and fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." I've given certain people second, third, fourth and fifth chances ad nauseum in my past all to no avail.  Those were very harsh memories and lessons I'll never forget.  It's like burning your hand on the stove.  Doesn't it make sense to play it safe by remaining more cautious, wary and jaded in the future? 

 

 

 

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