It's About The Journey...

[Ms Darcy]

It isn't always about finding the right person. It has just as much to do with `being' the right person, in the right place and time.

I think if he had met her now he would have married her.

 

At the time the anxiety of feeling he had to hold her back for however long it took for him to be that right person was too much for him.

 

Funny how now 5 years later he's more ready now then he was then. His current gf will benefit from that.

 

I agree with this. If for whatever freak reason your bf freaked out and broke up with you tomorrow, you'd find someone else who you could marry and have a happy life with. (There are a number of "right people" out there.) I think a lot of the magic of long lasting relationships is both people 1) meeting each other, 2) being on the same page with values/goals, 3) and both being ready for that long-term commitment within a mutually satisfying time frame.

 

Any one of those things gone and it's over. For example, a couple that seems to get along simply can't make it work because the other person hasn't met his or her own (self-actualization) goals.

[Ms Darcy]

I agree some people are definitely more live in the moment than planning for the future, but they should be still capable of making big life decisions such as marriage.

 

That's understandable. I think perhaps the variable is the question: how long should it take for someone to make that decision? I don't think there's a set answer, but it definitely depends on age, life experience, financial stability etc.

[reinventmyself]

That's understandable. I think perhaps the variable is the question: how long should it take for someone to make that decision? I don't think there's a set answer, but it definitely depends on age, life experience, financial stability etc.

 

and personality types. Some are more cautious, some are impulsive and others fall somewhere in the middle.

[itsallgrand]

I was actually shaking reading this discussion. Pardon me if I don't explain myself very well, but it triggered a strong emotional reaction in me. I've been with my current bf now coming on a year. We have spoken about what we each think and feel regarding marriage, and I know he is in this relationship with a mind of it becoming a marriage or ending - no common law, which I would be happy doing. I've always been open to marriage but it has never felt particularly important to me, not as a life goal. A committed loving long term relationship, yes, very important to me. I've lived in common law situations before and almost got married in my early twenties. It was me who backed out of that engagement.

 

im shaking because I am seeing so much generalities and stereotypes about men and women here. This is the first man I've ever really thought 'you know what, I could actually imagine marrying him and being happy and it working'. Is it a matter of my having time to mature and be comfortable with the idea of such a big commitment? Well maybe partially. I did a lot of work on myself and FOR myself, so I could live happily solo. But it's more than that. We bring a lot of the same things to the table, we are capable on so many levels. Not only personally and romantically, but we have both done the 'live on your own, work hard, own your own property ' thing.

 

I'm not saying everyone has to do it the same way. But I'll tell ya this- I could not imagine marrying a man who hadn't yet done those things on his own. I'm a woman- and I just couldn't. Love? For sure! But seriously consider marrying, until they showed me they can do it on their own by doing it? No.

 

I'm not wanting to be mean. But it grates on me hearing anyone say 'well they should be able to make a commitment like marriage in a few years at x age' when the person wanting that commitment is really asking the other for a larger than the other. I'm not talking about heart but the brass tacks of marriage - it's finance, business, work division. Half of yours is mine, half of mine is yours, it's OURS. It's the ultimate leap of trust. You are trusting your life with that person, and the fruits of your life work.

 

What I see with a lot of young men is that many are ready for marriage close to when women are. But the women they love are often steps behind them life responsibility wise- and that is why they hesitate, that is why they get pushed into a marriage they didn't really want ( they think it's how things go if you want to get married as a man, providing for women).

 

Woo. Feels good to get that out. I hope you won't see it as a personal attack, notalady, because that's not how it's intended. It's my thoughts and personal feelings- that's all. But maybe it'll give you another way to think of why he isn't discussing details of it with you. Maybe. Cause he may feel the larger burden here is on him- I know I felt that way in past relationships, and it's not a good feeling.

 

Does J know you are thinking you'd move in to his home ? Does he share your values about male and female roles? If he does, I suppose the above may not apply...though I know my fair share of men in relationships where they feel the burden of primary responsibility but just silently resent it and let it eat at the love over time.

[sophie274]

Decided not to post

[notalady]

I was actually shaking reading this discussion. Pardon me if I don't explain myself very well, but it triggered a strong emotional reaction in me. I've been with my current bf now coming on a year. We have spoken about what we each think and feel regarding marriage, and I know he is in this relationship with a mind of it becoming a marriage or ending - no common law, which I would be happy doing. I've always been open to marriage but it has never felt particularly important to me, not as a life goal. A committed loving long term relationship, yes, very important to me. I've lived in common law situations before and almost got married in my early twenties. It was me who backed out of that engagement.

 

im shaking because I am seeing so much generalities and stereotypes about men and women here. This is the first man I've ever really thought 'you know what, I could actually imagine marrying him and being happy and it working'. Is it a matter of my having time to mature and be comfortable with the idea of such a big commitment? Well maybe partially. I did a lot of work on myself and FOR myself, so I could live happily solo. But it's more than that. We bring a lot of the same things to the table, we are capable on so many levels. Not only personally and romantically, but we have both done the 'live on your own, work hard, own your own property ' thing.

 

I'm not saying everyone has to do it the same way. But I'll tell ya this- I could not imagine marrying a man who hadn't yet done those things on his own. I'm a woman- and I just couldn't. Love? For sure! But seriously consider marrying, until they showed me they can do it on their own by doing it? No.

 

I'm not wanting to be mean. But it grates on me hearing anyone say 'well they should be able to make a commitment like marriage in a few years at x age' when the person wanting that commitment is really asking the other for a larger than the other. I'm not talking about heart but the brass tacks of marriage - it's finance, business, work division. Half of yours is mine, half of mine is yours, it's OURS. It's the ultimate leap of trust. You are trusting your life with that person, and the fruits of your life work.

 

What I see with a lot of young men is that many are ready for marriage close to when women are. But the women they love are often steps behind them life responsibility wise- and that is why they hesitate, that is why they get pushed into a marriage they didn't really want ( they think it's how things go if you want to get married as a man, providing for women).

 

Woo. Feels good to get that out. I hope you won't see it as a personal attack, notalady, because that's not how it's intended. It's my thoughts and personal feelings- that's all. But maybe it'll give you another way to think of why he isn't discussing details of it with you. Maybe. Cause he may feel the larger burden here is on him- I know I felt that way in past relationships, and it's not a good feeling.

 

Does J know you are thinking you'd move in to his home ? Does he share your values about male and female roles? If he does, I suppose the above may not apply...though I know my fair share of men in relationships where they feel the burden of primary responsibility but just silently resent it and let it eat at the love over time.

 

I didn't take offence to any of what you wrote, frankly I didn't relate to any of it because I didn't think any of it applied to me or J lol... I have my own properties (shared with dad of course) and savings. I earn good money and can hold my own. I'm not sure what you are referring to about my view of male female roles? My view is that it's a role of equal partnership where both parties make fair contribution financially and with workload at home etc.

 

I'd be happy with taking out a mortgage to buy a house together after marriage, as most people do here. He wants to buy a place for himself now and that's fine. He's the one who seems to want to live in this property for a long time, that's part of what prompted my question about future plans, because it's not a huge place, enough for two people to live in but I would think a bit cramped with kids. He seems to think it's fine to live in with kids (but I doubt he has realistic ideas of how much space may be required). He did say he's happy to sell/rent out the place if a bigger place is required. That's part of why I said I'll probably just move in with him at his place if we get married. Then we can discuss further plans, that may be to buy a place together or may be to wait till kids, or may be to live with my dad if he's open to it, I'm flexible.

[notalady]

Why do you think living together without being engaged/married would be a "progression" -in what way? (We didn't live together before marriage but spent lots of time at each other's places).

 

I missed this earlier, I meant marriage but considering some people don't want marriage, that's why I said living together. I'm not sure what's confusing though, living together IS progression in a relationship, you're progressing to get to know each other on a day to day basis in living situations. I didn't say it's a progression towards marriage, which in many cases, it's not. And hence why I don't want to live together prior to marriage

[Ms Darcy]

I'd be happy with taking out a mortgage to buy a house together after marriage, as most people do here. He wants to buy a place for himself now and that's fine. He's the one who seems to want to live in this property for a long time, that's part of what prompted my question about future plans, because it's not a huge place, enough for two people to live in but I would think a bit cramped with kids. He seems to think it's fine to live in with kids (but I doubt he has realistic ideas of how much space may be required). He did say he's happy to sell/rent out the place if a bigger place is required. That's part of why I said I'll probably just move in with him at his place if we get married. Then we can discuss further plans, that may be to buy a place together or may be to wait till kids, or may be to live with my dad if he's open to it, I'm flexible.

 

I'm just going to note that I know nothing about your J. But I can say for me, before we got engaged I did a lot of scenarios (like you are doing here). And what did hubby do? Thought nothing of it. He might have had a thought in passing but that's it. I gave all of this far more mental energy than he did. Now I wish I had been more like him!

[notalady]

I'm just going to note that I know nothing about your J. But I can say for me, before we got engaged I did a lot of scenarios (like you are doing here). And what did hubby do? Thought nothing of it. He might have had a thought in passing but that's it. I gave all of this far more mental energy than he did. Now I wish I had been more like him!

 

I chuckled because I expect J is just the same as your husband, he hasn't thought that much in terms of what married life would look like practically, such as living situations, whether the living space is big enough or not and all that. Part of me freaks out at that (part of what prompted that conversation) because it feels like he's not thinking about a future with me if he hasn't even thought about living situations if we get married when he's now buying a house, but the other part of me says calm down, he's just a guy who doesn't think ahead that much or that far lol..

 

Although interestingly, when I said having kids might need a bigger place, he said but I can't afford a bigger place. I said but what if you have someone else to take out a mortgage with you, he said that would be fine. So it kinda does make me think whether he thinks it's on him to own a place before considering marriage.

[Ms Darcy]

I don't know all men of course ... But for the men I know (including my husband) they have been reluctant to marry until they were ready to take on the financial responsibility of being the breadwinner if/when wife had kids. For my husband at least, he wouldn't want me to feel like I have to work if I don't want to.

 

If I had that mindset, it would take me a LOOOOONG time to marry ... if ever.

[itsallgrand]

You are right it probably does not apply to yourself and J.

You and I see things in a fundamentally different way. I don't think you see a difference at all between your situation and one where a woman has lived on her own and invested with full risks on her own back. I do think it's very different. And it's more generally expected of men, whereas women are often given a pass.

 

And what Ms.Darcy said about many men not wanting/feeling ready to marry until they can be a provider, bingo. But how many women hold themselves to that standard? Where they hold off on marrying until they have shown through actions they can be the sole provider for themselves, and also someone else in times it may be necessary ( like deciding to have children)? How many women take marriage and slide back into a role where they and their children are being provided for?

 

I do think a lot of double standards still exist. And when it comes to marriage and kids, that's when they seem to be engrained the deepest. To the point a lot of people don't even question them, they just bring them to the fore when talk of these things begins.

 

If you and J are coming from the same place in life and views, well, that's a totally different ball of wax.

[Batya33]

I missed this earlier, I meant marriage but considering some people don't want marriage, that's why I said living together. I'm not sure what's confusing though, living together IS progression in a relationship, you're progressing to get to know each other on a day to day basis in living situations. I didn't say it's a progression towards marriage, which in many cases, it's not. And hence why I don't want to live together prior to marriage

 

I don't think it's a progression towards a commitment unless the purpose of living together is to strengthen an emotional commitment (for me, I didn't need or want the test/audition especially since it would have been irrelevant in our case and probably harmful -we became parents shortly after getting married, living together with an infant has little in common with, without IMO). I don't think "oh we're moving in together" is necessarily a progression in the relationship just because you share physical space and I think certain people are under the misconception it is and/or are not on the same wavelength as their partner.

 

I wouldn't assume that J doesn't think ahead. He is doing what makes him happy. What makes him happy is buying a house on his own and for himself. He is not interested now in buying a house that could be good for a family. Accept that or not. I don't think it's a bad thing - just information about where he is right now. Certainly from an economic perspective he is intelligent and knows that it's not smart to buy a house that you're not going to live in for at least, what is it, 5 years?

 

As far as space for a child - we have a 1,200 square foot apartment, one child. Is it spacious? Nope. It's how my sibling and I grew up too (in an even smaller place) and when my child was born our apartment then was 550 square feet. Don't try to keep up with the Joneses when it comes to that especially if he feels he can't afford to take on a larger mortgage (and remember he's not ready to think about it with you). We spend lots of time out of the house in spacious parks/libraries/museums/friend's houses. We also have a storage unit.

 

It's really ok that you're more ready than he is right now. I go back to my suggestion that you keep in mind, internally, what your dealbreaker time is and warn him enough in advance. I know you're not there yet so you can exhale!

[Ms Darcy]

Well, speaking for myself only, I think if one partner gives birth to kiddies then I think it's only fair they ghad a break from work at the very least to recover for a few months. I also think babies deserve 24 hour care. So whichever partner stays home would naturally not be working. For men and women, the woman generally gives birth and often stays home. I think that job of carrying a child, giving birth, and being the primary care giver is much much more difficult and time consuming emotionally and physically. In gay couples I know it's the same idea. They stay at home parent isn't working and the other is. Both jobs are equally important; just different. Unfortunately, the stay home job is unpaid though. So from my perspective they are equally valuable.

[Batya33]

Well, speaking for myself only, I think if one partner gives birth to kiddies then I think it's only fair they ghad a break from work at the very least to recover for a few months. I also think babies deserve 24 hour care. So whichever partner stays home would naturally not be working. For men and women, the woman generally gives birth and often stays home. I think that job of carrying a child, giving birth, and being the primary care giver is much much more difficult and time consuming emotionally and physically. In gay couples I know it's the same idea. They stay at home parent isn't working and the other is. Both jobs are equally important; just different. Unfortunately, the stay home job is unpaid though. So from my perspective they are equally valuable.

 

I know to some it is semantics but "break from working"? Nope. No break from working - just a different kind of work. I agree wholeheartedly with the approach you mentioned - I do know of families where it makes more economic sense for the Dad to be the full-time parent and it works well (or where the Dad just prefers it of course!).

I think if the woman expects the man to be the sole financial provider and she is not working full time taking care of their child/children then that needs to be discussed up front. Also the OP is not that young that she shouldn't have savings to bring to a marriage so that if she were the full time parent she could contribute to the household income from her savings, for example.

[Ms Darcy]

Yeah, I was typing quickly but I would hope all my other points clarified how valuable I think it is. Break from work more so refers to what we call in my line of work a "break from service" ... Which is any circumstances where one is not in their job for more than 5 weeks.

[Batya33]

Yeah, I was typing quickly but I would hope all my other ppints clarified how valuable I think it is. Break from work more so refers to what we call in my line of work a "break from service" ... Which is any circumstances where one is not in their job for more than 5 weeks.

 

Yes, it definitely did - which is why it seemed unusual for you to phrase it that way but -certainly understood!

 

The other point to consider on the division of labor/financial front - for many women, taking more than the permitted maternity leave means taking a pay-cut or needing re-training when she reenters her field or a related field (true for me in my search for part-time work now, with an eye towards full-time in the not too distant future).

[itsallgrand]

Well, I can see I think and feel differently about this topic than you ladies. I won't hijack notaladys thread further explaining it because she doesn't think it relevant to her.

 

I was quite surprised, to be honest, at the responses.

[IAmFCA]

You are right it probably does not apply to yourself and J.

You and I see things in a fundamentally different way. I don't think you see a difference at all between your situation and one where a woman has lived on her own and invested with full risks on her own back. I do think it's very different. And it's more generally expected of men, whereas women are often given a pass.

 

And what Ms.Darcy said about many men not wanting/feeling ready to marry until they can be a provider, bingo. But how many women hold themselves to that standard? Where they hold off on marrying until they have shown through actions they can be the sole provider for themselves, and also someone else in times it may be necessary ( like deciding to have children)? How many women take marriage and slide back into a role where they and their children are being provided for?

 

I do think a lot of double standards still exist. And when it comes to marriage and kids, that's when they seem to be engrained the deepest. To the point a lot of people don't even question them, they just bring them to the fore when talk of these things begins.

 

If you and J are coming from the same place in life and views, well, that's a totally different ball of wax.

 

Been staying out of this discussion. I agree with this.

 

Been staying out because I am glad to live in a society that provides multitude of options for people to find love or not, become parents or not, be financially self-supporting. I shudder at anyone thinking there is a preferred way, because when social systems and laws reflect those preferences, than choices are limited.

 

Me: Working on the day of each child's birth. Pumped at work; kept that going for 6 to 9 months for each. Was always self sufficient. Still am. In fact, was my equity that permitted the purchase of everywhere we lived. Now we're divorced, and the assumption that he pays for certain things, that I gained financially. .. instead, my balance sheet was eviscerated, the experience men talk about and then recover from. My kids enjoy privileges that I afford but that deplete resources for myself; fathers tell me almost universally that they would not make that choice. Their own father wouldn't make those choices either. It matters that as a mom I can direct assets in my sole and absolute discretion. Men consider whether they want to pay for my lifestyle when they date me; at least one uttered this out loud, others dig in to understanding my expenses in a different way. This doesn't bother me. After working through my parenting years, I would welcome a break to focus on my kids. Regardless - having walked in a different pair of shoes, I can attest the gender gap exists, and choices exists. Thank goodness I was able to enjoy an uninterrupted career without the presumption that my parenting years would cause me to take leave and therefore impact responsibilities afforded me at work. I always planned on having a hard schedule when children were young, and more flexibility when they were teenagers. I have that now. It's awesome. I really miss having a second parent, no doubt, but I am ecstatic to have made it this far this well. Many paths...

[Batya33]

Yes, many paths. I did my saving/building a nest egg pre-children because I knew I probably wanted to be at home full time way past maternity leave and the rest was how my life worked out -instead of having a child in my 20s/early 30s, it was my early 40s and financially that meant an additional dozen years of heavy-duty saving. Of course the assumption is that since I don't work outside the home I don't contribute to the family income. But I avoid that feeling of defensiveness since of course no matter what path there are going to be the naysayers/suspicions that one parent isn't pulling his/her weight. It's what works for the couple that is best.

[IAmFCA]

Yes, many paths. I did my saving/building a nest egg pre-children because I knew I probably wanted to be at home full time way past maternity leave and the rest was how my life worked out -instead of having a child in my 20s/early 30s, it was my early 40s and financially that meant an additional dozen years of heavy-duty saving. Of course the assumption is that since I don't work outside the home I don't contribute to the family income. But I avoid that feeling of defensiveness since of course no matter what path there are going to be the naysayers/suspicions that one parent isn't pulling his/her weight. It's what works for the couple that is best.

 

Yes, I remember how intentional you were about saving to prepare for giving up income later. That was a great move on your part. For my part, I don't feel any different than my peers, many of whom have vastly different lives than mine. I am hopeful to surround myself with friends who are happy with themselves and generous of spirit with others. The rest is just details.

[Batya33]

Yes, I remember how intentional you were about saving to prepare for giving up income later. That was a great move on your part. For my part, I don't feel any different than my peers, many of whom have vastly different lives than mine. I am hopeful to surround myself with friends who are happy with themselves and generous of spirit with others. The rest is just details.

 

Yes, I am also not a fan of narrowing as in trying to meet only people with more than one child, or no children, etc. Obviously -and this is for the OP too - logistics/practicalities play a role -I'm more likely to look for a mom who is at home to meet for a mid-morning exercise class or walk/coffee than reach out to a working mom but not because of substantive differences.

 

To the OP - it would be really valuable, since your boyfriend is looking to buy a house, to start the general discussions about how he sees family dynamics/division of labor if there are children, etc.

[notalady]

We had a great anniversary day. It's funny that I gave him a bracelet with our initials and anniversary date engraved and he gave me a framed stitch of our initials! It's funny that we often think alike and end up doing or saying the same thing!

 

J's lovely anniversary card says "you make me so happy! I have had the best year with you and I look forward to spending many more with you!"

 

That made me very happy Silly me for worrying about the future when it's clear he sees a future with me.

[faraday]

Your anniversary is on clementines birthday. It's a good day

 

I'm glad things are going well NAL Happy anniversary

[notalady]

Thanks faraday! Happy birthday to Clementine!

[faraday]

Are you going to give us an update?