It's About The Journey...

[notalady]

Aww thanks reinvent it did feel very romantic indeed

[Silverbirch]

Ah, I'm wondering if you went to somewhere like Mt Tamborine and/or Reily's Guest House, then to beaches in Nirthern NSw or South Queensland.

 

Today I drove 150kms to go to a funeral and back. Even tough Im supposed to be in the high country here, it is nothing compared to where I went as far as high country goes. I'm telling you - to me, where I went was REAL "Man from Snowy River Coubtry", and aim told if I had driven another hour into the mountains, it gets much more spectacular again. Very different to the rainforest mountains of Queensland, but very nice too. Weather permitting, I may do more travelling tomorrow - to a different place on The Great Alpine Road.

[Silverbirch]

Lady, are you getting all this media coverage on the footballers up there? Absolutely disgusting.

[notalady]

Ah, I'm wondering if you went to somewhere like Mt Tamborine and/or Reily's Guest House, then to beaches in Nirthern NSw or South Queensland.

 

Today I drove 150kms to go to a funeral and back. Even tough Im supposed to be in the high country here, it is nothing compared to where I went as far as high country goes. I'm telling you - to me, where I went was REAL "Man from Snowy River Coubtry", and aim told if I had driven another hour into the mountains, it gets much more spectacular again. Very different to the rainforest mountains of Queensland, but very nice too. Weather permitting, I may do more travelling tomorrow - to a different place on The Great Alpine Road.

 

You are good! Haha.. We went to a few northern NSW towns then O'Reilly's

 

Hope you have a good trip, it's going to be a rainy few days here!

[notalady]

As we are quickly moving towards 8 months and inching towards the one year mark, and maybe it's the whole Valentine's Day thing, the idea of marriage has been coming to my mind a lot the last few days. It's still early days and probably too early to think about it, but I felt slightly anxious recalling the "horror stories" of all the couples I know that have been together for years and not married (the women want to but I think the guys must not be ready or not keen on marriage), or some married after being together for 3-5 years, or even more.

 

For me, somewhere between 1-2 years is ideal, considering I do want to have a kid before 35 and would ideally like to be married for a year or more before that. I guess the slight anxiety comes from not knowing what J's timelines are. We never discussed it in specifics like that and I feel like it's too soon to talk about it (is it?). We did talk about our views on marriage in early days, he commented he didn't understand why his friend wasn't marrying his gf of 10 years. I said that if you've been with someone for 2 years and still don't know if you want to marry them, you probably don't. He agreed. In several other discussions like that where we were talking about other couples, he seemed to think getting married between 1-2 years is reasonable. Whenever we talked about these things, we seemed to be in agreement. But still, it was never explicitly discussed in relation to us and what we each want or expect.

 

Anyway, I'm not really concerned and I know sometimes I overthink (and wake up the next morning not even remembering why I was worried about these things lol) but I just wanted to write down what's on my mind.

[Batya33]

I think 8 months is fine to start talking about particular plans. It's funny that you assume that when couples are together 3 years without being engaged that it's the guy dragging his feet. As far as wanting to have a child before 35, this is your journal but for what it's worth I completely understand the desire to be married without trying for a year. And at the same time you never know how long it's going to take to conceive and if you have that "before 35" as your personal goal, I would try sooner than later as long as you are ready to be parents (I know "ready" is subjective- but balance whether the child-free year is worth the risk that you run into fertility issues on either side, that you cannot detect with getting tested beforehand).

 

It's great that you know his general goal is marriage and family.

[faraday]

I think it's still pretty early to talk about it as "this is happening, let's get married" versus a hypothetical. You guys are still getting to know each other. Do you feel like "yes, he's the one absolutely" at this point?

 

With Jay, I felt like...I loved him. Like I could see it going that way. But I still wasn't sure yet. I knew for sure wanted to around 18 months. But before that...I just didn't feel like I had seen him react to enough things yet to know definitely. Even at 2 years in, he still surprises me with how he reacts (thankfully he always surprises me in a good way- he's always way more level headed and calm than I expect. He always gives me the benefit of the doubt) but now I feel like I know his character well enough to know that he won't react in a way that I would find disappointing or look at as a deal breaker. Does that make sense? Do you feel like you roughly know how your J will react to things, and he consistently reacts the way you think he will?

 

How do you think he'd react if you brought up marriage?

 

I think because you guys won't be moving in together before marriage, that will naturally create an urgency.

[notalady]

Thanks ladies for your input

 

Faraday, no I'm not at the point yet where I feel sure (or reasonably sure) about marrying J, it feels still too early, but like you, I can definitely see it going that way J always react to things in good way but yes I'd need to see more. It's good to know how it worked for you guys, 18 months seems like a good amount of time. You mentioned in your journal, you didn't talk even hypothetically or abstractly about marriage until 18 months?

 

I certainly wouldn't bring it up this early even hypothetically (like if we were married...) lol, but I think you are right, the fact that we won't live together before marriage would create an urgency.

[notalady]

I'm glad you shared your story faraday (in your journal and here), it gives me a lot of comfort I think a bit of the anxiety also came from wondering when I would know for sure (reasonably sure), and wondering when he would know for sure. So it's comforting to know that you didn't know till 18 months (and your Jay 12 months), makes me think that when time's right, I will know

[Batya33]

I'm glad you shared your story faraday (in your journal and here), it gives me a lot of comfort I think a bit of the anxiety also came from wondering when I would know for sure (reasonably sure), and wondering when he would know for sure. So it's comforting to know that you didn't know till 18 months (and your Jay 12 months), makes me think that when time's right, I will know

 

I think a lot of that is in your control -it's not like a car wash where rightness flows over you -it's about getting to know him in the ways that matters and knowing what you are looking for long term. Some of it is that sense of rightness but I wouldn't buy into a fatalistic/passive view.

[notalady]

I think a lot of that is in your control -it's not like a car wash where rightness flows over you -it's about getting to know him in the ways that matters and knowing what you are looking for long term. Some of it is that sense of rightness but I wouldn't buy into a fatalistic/passive view.

 

Lol I laughed at that car wash thing!

 

I agree, of course. So I'd also like to know what did you ladies do to get to know your partner in ways that matter (or that helped you get to know them better)?

 

In the first 6 months, I felt like I got to learn a lot of new things about J and we shared our thoughts on various issues, as you do when you first get to know someone. I also saw him in different situations. A lot of new things happened during this time like meeting families and friends, travelling and having travel delays and all that. It's been winding down a bit in the last few weeks or so, we've been spending more time at home, doing normal stuff like cooking together or just watched tv and stuff, which is of course all part of the relationship experience. There isn't always things to be shared or discussed or things to do that allow me to learn more about him. So I wonder what else can I do to get to know him more? It'd be helpful to hear others' experiences

[Batya33]

Yes -all those things plus seeing how he acts when he is sick, when you are sick, when he had a great day at work, when someone else at work got a promotion, etc. It's about how you hang out together when you're not talking/interacting (perhaps you're both working from home, or watching separate TV shows, etc). And of course over a year's time you see him through all seasons/holidays/birthdays.

 

What I am not a fan of is forced "deep" conversations. If that happens naturally, great. And also very open ended questions and not too many questions - space and comfortable silences are so so important to closeness. Oh that and inside jokes.

[notalady]

Thanks Batya, I forgot I did see him when he's sick too haha...

 

We're doing all those things (other than maybe hanging out but doing our own thing, since we don't live together), certainly sounds like we're on the right track

[reinventmyself]

If it matters at all, I was engaged to my ex H at 9 mos and married 9 mos later. At the time noone could have told me otherwise but in all honesty, we didn't know each other.

By the sounds of it I think you are right on track. Considering if he could be your husband and trying to envision how he fits in your life and what the future might look like is not only normal, but smart.

Just don't act on it ;]

Sounds like he's on the same page too.

Enjoy this time!

[faraday]

Thanks ladies for your input

 

Faraday, no I'm not at the point yet where I feel sure (or reasonably sure) about marrying J, it feels still too early, but like you, I can definitely see it going that way J always react to things in good way but yes I'd need to see more. It's good to know how it worked for you guys, 18 months seems like a good amount of time. You mentioned in your journal, you didn't talk even hypothetically or abstractly about marriage until 18 months?

 

I certainly wouldn't bring it up this early even hypothetically (like if we were married...) lol, but I think you are right, the fact that we won't live together before marriage would create an urgency.

 

Don't you remember the talk him and I had at the 6 month mark? I was so sure he was going to run away screaming!

 

I sat him down and told him that while I wasn't sure he was my "the one"...that I wanted to make it clear that my goal was marriage. That if he wanted to be with me, I needed him to have that goal (ultimately) for himself. I told him that if at any point he didn't see me as marriage potential, I wanted him to end things immediately...no hard feelings. I explained that I wanted another child before 35, and that it didn't leave me time to spend with men that weren't interested in the same future goals as me.

 

I scared the hell out of him lol. He didn't get it immediately- like he thought I meant I needed a proposal right away...and he said he wasn't ready for that. I told him I wasn't ready yet either at that point, and if he proposed today (at 6 months) I would decline. I just needed to know that if in a year, things were still going great and we still adored each other, that he would be seriously considering marrying me.

 

So we made the promise that if either of us felt like...we didn't see forever with the other person, we would end it and not string the other person along.

 

I did ask him a few times over the next year if he still felt we were "good" and that "even if he wasn't 100% sure yet, that he still saw me as a potential wife candidate." And before we bought the house together, I told him that he HAD to be absolutely sure he was planning on marrying me before we put down the down payment...and he said he was sure.

 

It was really frustrating that he hadn't proposed after 4 months of living here. I thought he would do it sooner. He still hasn't officially proposed yet...but he kind of has? Idk, he wants to do the ring and stuff- so that's okay...I just feel a lot better now that we've had the "listen, is this getting married thing actually happening here in the next year? Or are you delaying because you regret buying the house and wish it was easier to get out of" talk. I still don't call him my fiancé...I probably won't ever because I hate the term...but I look at him like that now....and I knew he looks at me like that.

 

I wouldn't do anything different. I'm glad that I made my intentions clear...I didn't make it about him, I told him what I wanted..and that if he wanted to be with me, he also needed to want a similar life plan...I would rather someone get scared and run away than stay for 10 years with someone who is either still on the fence, or doesn't want what I want.

[Batya33]

Thanks Batya, I forgot I did see him when he's sick too haha...

 

We're doing all those things (other than maybe hanging out but doing our own thing, since we don't live together), certainly sounds like we're on the right track

 

I never lived with anyone and we hung out a lot together doing our own thing -including with ex boyfriends. We both had intense jobs but wanted to be together so we'd work from home at someone's apartment and sometimes go to a park and spread out a blanket and read, etc.

 

I highly recommend A Fine Romance by Judith Sills - it's from the 1980s but great- maybe there's an updated definition. Lovely book about phases/stages of relationships.

[Ms Darcy]

I'll give you my memory of how it happened and then my husband's memory. I had a general conversation with him on the second or third date about how I am interested in a long-term relationship with someone with the potential for marriage. After about six months of dating, I told him I was looking to get married in the next few years. He said he was generally open to marriage but he was fine without it. At about two years, I sat him down and said that I am seriously interested in marriage. He agreed that our relationship was moving towards marriage. He proposed about 3-4 months after that.

 

His version (because I asked him what he remembered this morning). I had a general conversation with him 1-2 years into the relationship with him about marriage. After two years, I made it clear I was ready for marriage. For him, he was just enjoying the relationship (in the moment) and not thinking much about moving things towards marriage until I brought it up. He had faith it would somehow happen (lol). He also mentioned that he really became open to marriage when his "model" couple (his sister and her now husband) decided to get married after many years of living together. Then, he really became comfortable with marriage. [As a somewhat important side note, he did tell me that after our first vacation together (maybe 4 months into dating) he started fantasizing about marriage because it was such a great experience.]

 

I tell you the different versions because it gives you a sense of the different perspectives. He wasn't dragging his feet in his mind (and I don't think he was either). He was just enjoying the moments and thinking seriously about what marriage means. To me, it's most often the woman who has to get him out of the moment and thinking about the future. This is not always the case of course. But I think it's pretty frequent - especially when the woman has a timeline in mind. I initiated our major conversations and then gave him space to think. He did think and did a great job consulting with trusted family members to get an understanding of how they reached their own decisions to marry.

 

I encourage you and anyone interested in marriage read this and other studies about marriage: /

 

The key takeaway is that there is no rush to marry. People who get engaged after dating for less than a year are FAR more likely to divorce than those who got engaged after three years. Of course, you don't want to date for 10 years, but there is a lot of evidence that says knowing someone for a few years before engagement helps with the stability of the marriage. So, a guy who needs three or even four years to decide can actually be very wise.

 

I also suggest pre-marital counseling.

[notalady]

Thanks Batya and Ms Darcy for your perspectives

 

Ms Darcy, it's definitely interesting to hear your husband's version. I think it also comes down to if marriage and kids is one's goal, by the sounds of it, your husband didn't have that goal but was open to marriage, and your goal seems similar (LTR with marriage as a potential, but not necessity or requirement?) I think that makes a difference, when it's a goal, you would likely be a more conscious about it rather than just going with the flow, of course while still living in the moment.

 

If you don't mind sharing, how did you approach (or phrase) those conversations at 6 months and 2 years? Just for reference

 

I'm definitely not in a rush, but at the same time, I wouldn't wait 3 years either. If I was in my mid to late twenties, sure, 3 years is fine. I've seen various studies and stats on marriage success in relation to various factors (including that one you shared). Interesting to read but I find most of them to either be common sense or shows simply correlation rather than causation (as the article points out as well). Frankly I kinda laughed when I got to the bit about people who are religious are far less likely to get divorced, that may be true (and unsurprising), doesn't mean anything in terms of happiness within the marriage. Interesting stuff nonetheless

[thejigsup]

Religious people, I am one, have the most intimate part of their soul in common, their faith. It's hard to find that and it is more precious than gold. I will never be with another man unless he shares my faith, not my religion, my faith. Two completely different things.

[Ms Darcy]

Thanks Batya and Ms Darcy for your perspectives

 

Ms Darcy, it's definitely interesting to hear your husband's version. I think it also comes down to if marriage and kids is one's goal, by the sounds of it, your husband didn't have that goal but was open to marriage, and your goal seems similar (LTR with marriage as a potential, but not necessity or requirement?) I think that makes a difference, when it's a goal, you would likely be a more conscious about it rather than just going with the flow, of course while still living in the moment.

 

If you don't mind sharing, how did you approach (or phrase) those conversations at 6 months and 2 years? Just for reference

 

I'm definitely not in a rush, but at the same time, I wouldn't wait 3 years either. If I was in my mid to late twenties, sure, 3 years is fine. I've seen various studies and stats on marriage success in relation to various factors (including that one you shared). Interesting to read but I find most of them to either be common sense or shows simply correlation rather than causation (as the article points out as well). Frankly I kinda laughed when I got to the bit about people who are religious are far less likely to get divorced, that may be true (and unsurprising), doesn't mean anything in terms of happiness within the marriage. Interesting stuff nonetheless

 

Yeah, I think we can get into the correlation doesn't equal causation, but as you briefly mentioned, I think they are more helpful in trying to keep would-be brides grounded in common sense. Common sense is that dating less than a year doesn't give you enough time to get to really know the other person, for example, and that seems to bear fruit in the higher rate of divorce for those couples.

 

I hope the other thing it does is to normalize time. I was 30 when I met my husband. And though everybody is different, I tried to use that information in addition to knowing him to help myself remember that MY timeline wasn't going to speed up his decision-making process.

 

I somehow don't think this will be an issue with you and your guy, but I can't help but cringe when I see people giving ultimatums when they aren't engaged after 2 years or less.

 

I also know a lot of women/couples in their 30s who are shelling out big money for IVF and fertility treatments because Mr Right didn't appear until their 30s. I would say if you are financially planning for your own fertility, in case this relationship doesn't work out or you two can't immediately conceive, you aren't in as much as a rush as you might think.

 

In terms of the conversation with my husband, it was pretty brief. At 6 months, I noted that we had discussed it before but I wanted it to be clear that I was looking for marriage in the next few years. He said he was open to marriage or not marriage, but he felt our relationship would last either way. I said I wouldn't stick around forever without marriage. (I said it in a cute and sassy way.)

 

He actually took a long time to say "I love you." 8 months. I was actually worried. But he didn't want to say it until he was committed, as he saw those words as a commitment. So, pretty much from the time he said it (knowing what it meant to him) I knew we would heading towards marriage. The convo at the 2-year mark was more about saying, let's get this engagement and marriage planning thing going.

[notalady]

"remember that MY timeline wasn't going to speed up his decision-making process."

 

Ms Darcy, you are very wise indeed! I 100% agree with this and it's a good thing to keep in mind. After this, I thought about the hypothetical scenario where we are 2 years into the relationship, still very compatible and everything is going well, and I have no reason to believe he's not being as serious about me as I am him or that he might be having doubts, but for whatever reason he hasn't proposed yet, would I simply walk away because of my ideal timeline isn't met? The answer is likely not. J is a one in a million kind of guy (if he stays consistent, which I have no reason to believe that he won't) and it took me 10+ years of dating to meet him, why would I walk away from something and someone so special just because he might take a little longer to take that leap? I'd be nuts.

 

On a separate but related note, I celebrated J's 34th birthday with him last night. We went to a nice restaurant with great food and nice views (my treat of course). I secretly arranged for a chocolate cake to be brought out after the main meal, with a candle and "Happy Birthday J" written on it. It was quite funny that the waitress was giving me a wink and a nod when we were ordering dessert (since J wasn't aware of this), he later laughed when I told him that's what happened and said he couldn't believe he didn't pick that up as he's usually very observant lol.. I also got him some presents. He told me last night and this morning that he loved everything and had a great time.

 

During dinner, he started talking about one of his friends, and I joked that I know he's a good friend but he's really not very good looking J laughed and agreed, then said he doesn't understand what he's waiting for as he's been with his partner (a very lovely and beautiful woman) for 10 years and still not married, and it's clear that she wants to. We talked about it for a bit, and I asked him if he has any ideas/plans/timeline on marriage, in general, not to me lol.. He said he doesn't really, just when it's the right person and feels right (not surprising of course). I said I see myself getting married in the next couple of years, since I do want kid/kids, and the risks get higher at 35. He said good to know and smiled at me cheekily lol, and I did the same. He also teased me about apparently looking shy lol!

 

Anyway I'm glad to have had communicated that, so that he's aware where I'm at. But as written earlier in this post, him not meeting my ideal deadline certainly doesn't mean that I won't continue the relationship. We can have that conversation if it comes to that

[Batya33]

Glad you had a fun birthday celebration! You're lucky because when I was in my early 30s egg freezing was not an option (only embryo freezing and I wasn't going to use donor sperm at that point). If his answer is the typical "right person/ feels right" then I would start saving today just in case you are 33, not married and need to look into freezing eggs. I think his answer is just fine as was your comment. But, take care of you. We started trying to conceive over a year before we married because I was 40 and we did not need any intervention but it took a long time. It was fun to try, not fun to think about the "what if it doesn't work? and not fun to be pregnant at 41 with all the risk factors. If you can lessen that pressure for yourself, knowing you want to have the opportunity to be pregnant, give birth, etc then do whatever it takes -it will help your relationship too if some of the pressure is lifted.

[Ms Darcy]

I'm not one to pressure, but I agree with Batya. I've been getting more and more versed in the egg-freezing world and there are SO many women who wish they could have when they were younger. My sister recently spent (wasted) $20K on infertility treatments and gave up on having a child. She was 41 when she started trying. The technology is there. I'm not saying do it, but definitely save up.

[WithLove]

NAL, I think the conversation you had with him made it pretty clear on what your feelings are regarding marriage. It's also important that he didn't say he had no feeling about it or that he didn't care either way; what he said was that he wanted to when the timing and person was right. So that basically means he wants the same things as you, but perhaps not in the same time frame (although you don't know that for sure).

 

For now, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[faraday]

Freezing eggs is great in theory, but in practicality...not so much.

 

It costs a few thousand dollars (in canada it ranges between 5-10 thousand (per egg cycle stimulation that you need) plus storage fees...and results are not guaranteed...using thawed eggs, live birth rate is 4.5%-12%...where as if the eggs are fertilized and then frozen, there is over a 50% live birth success rate. So on top of frozen eggs not as often producing a child, they also carry the risks that ivf carry, such as low birth weight and multiple fertilization.

 

The technology is still very young. It will get better....but right now...it should not be considered a good back up plan. The best plan is to get pregnant before 35.