It's About The Journey...

[Batya33]

Freezing eggs is great in theory, but in practicality...not so much.

 

It costs a few thousand dollars (in canada it ranges between 5-10 thousand (per egg cycle stimulation that you need) plus storage fees...and results are not guaranteed...using thawed eggs, live birth rate is 4.5%-12%...where as if the eggs are fertilized and then frozen, there is over a 50% live birth success rate. So on top of frozen eggs not as often producing a child, they also carry the risks that ivf carry, such as low birth weight and multiple fertilization.

 

The technology is still very young. It will get better....but right now...it should not be considered a good back up plan. The best plan is to get pregnant before 35.

 

That's not what I understand is the current effectiveness -my understanding is that it is expensive but more effective (at least in the U.S.) than what you quoted but I did not look into it personally.

 

I completely agree that if a woman has the opportunity in a stable marriage/relationship to conceive before 35 there is no reason to wait. I wish I'd had that opportunity.

[faraday]

"remember that MY timeline wasn't going to speed up his decision-making process."

 

Ms Darcy, you are very wise indeed! I 100% agree with this and it's a good thing to keep in mind. After this, I thought about the hypothetical scenario where we are 2 years into the relationship, still very compatible and everything is going well, and I have no reason to believe he's not being as serious about me as I am him or that he might be having doubts, but for whatever reason he hasn't proposed yet, would I simply walk away because of my ideal timeline isn't met? The answer is likely not. J is a one in a million kind of guy (if he stays consistent, which I have no reason to believe that he won't) and it took me 10+ years of dating to meet him, why would I walk away from something and someone so special just because he might take a little longer to take that leap? I'd be nuts.

 

On a separate but related note, I celebrated J's 34th birthday with him last night. We went to a nice restaurant with great food and nice views (my treat of course). I secretly arranged for a chocolate cake to be brought out after the main meal, with a candle and "Happy Birthday J" written on it. It was quite funny that the waitress was giving me a wink and a nod when we were ordering dessert (since J wasn't aware of this), he later laughed when I told him that's what happened and said he couldn't believe he didn't pick that up as he's usually very observant lol.. I also got him some presents. He told me last night and this morning that he loved everything and had a great time.

 

During dinner, he started talking about one of his friends, and I joked that I know he's a good friend but he's really not very good looking J laughed and agreed, then said he doesn't understand what he's waiting for as he's been with his partner (a very lovely and beautiful woman) for 10 years and still not married, and it's clear that she wants to. We talked about it for a bit, and I asked him if he has any ideas/plans/timeline on marriage, in general, not to me lol.. He said he doesn't really, just when it's the right person and feels right (not surprising of course). I said I see myself getting married in the next couple of years, since I do want kid/kids, and the risks get higher at 35. He said good to know and smiled at me cheekily lol, and I did the same. He also teased me about apparently looking shy lol!

 

Anyway I'm glad to have had communicated that, so that he's aware where I'm at. But as written earlier in this post, him not meeting my ideal deadline certainly doesn't mean that I won't continue the relationship. We can have that conversation if it comes to that

 

It sounds like you guys had an awesome birthday dinner what did you get him for his birthday? (I'm nosey lol)

 

I really don't think you need to worry with him- he sounds like he's on the same page as you.

 

All of my friends that are in long term (5-10) years with men that won't propose even though they (the women) hint at it....are all kind of idiots. Every single one of their Bfs has said at one point or another, "I'm not ready to get married" or "I don't believe in marriage" or "we're pretty much married already, what's a piece of paper going to do?"...and their gfs think eventually their Bfs will change their minds. That they'll "grow up" or whatever. They are in complete denial...and ignoring what their Bfs are plainly saying to them. Oddly, most of them after 4-6 years together, get pregnant. Idk if they think that will change things....but from watching the friends I have that have lived this...it doesn't work out like that.

 

All you can do is...make sure he knows what you want. And I would make a point of saying at some point (when it naturally comes up in conversation...either you're talking about babies, or marriage or other people's relationships...just try to make it a natural segue and not a WTh moment lol) that babies take a year to incubate, and if you're going to have a baby before 35, that means you have x amount of time...because my Jay is great at math, but 35 was so abstract and we still feel like we're in our mid twenties...he didn't really think about it until I told him, "if I'm going to have a child before 35, I need to be pregnant in 2.5 years. 1.5 if I want two kids." That was his holy crap moment.

 

Other than that...listen to him. If he starts saying anything anti marriage, I would question to him about it...but really...you guys sound like you're on the right track.

 

Enjoy getting to know him

[faraday]

That's not what I understand is the current effectiveness -my understanding is that it is expensive but more effective (at least in the U.S.) than what you quoted but I did not look into it personally.

 

I completely agree that if a woman has the opportunity in a stable marriage/relationship to conceive before 35 there is no reason to wait. I wish I'd had that opportunity.

 

I think it depends on where you look. An individual clinic might have higher rates...or they might only give rates based on a more successful last 6 months or whatever....but the overall rates are 4.5-12%...even in the states. And that's using eggs frozen before before a woman turns thirty. Success rates are lower with older eggs.

 

When you type "frozen eggs success rates" into Google, there's a ton of info. Keep in mind to look for "live births" and not "successful implantation" as there is a high success rate of implantations...unfortunately most end in miscarriage.

 

I do agree that it would have been perhaps a better option for you...and if things with J don't work out, maybe notalady should consider it.

[notalady]

Thanks ladies for your input I'm not that concerned about fertility at this stage and rather spend my money elsewhere lol... I'm still not sure at this stage if I would even want to try if I (or future partner) have fertility issues. Such a pain and expensive and I'm not even completely sold on having kids just yet lol...Maybe in a few years if I feel the need to, I'll look into it.

 

I didn't take J's comment as a negative at all. I think it's fair. I used to say the same thing before I was 30 lol! Well I still have the same mindset but more conscious about time now than before. I know he's marriage minded that much is clear from all our general discussions, so I'm not concerned about whether he wants to get married, just that timeframe is unclear, but that's fine with me. My main purpose of bringing it up at this rather early stage was to let him know my timeframe and get him to start thinking about it (if he isn't already) and with my timeframe in mind. I didn't want to wait till 18 months or two years to suddenly say I think it's time lol! I wanted to give him plenty of time to think about it and in a pressure free way (for both of us). In another year's time, I might touch base again to ensure we're on the same page.

 

I think that it wouldn't take him more than two years, given that we don't live together, and he seems more into me than ever. The morning after his birthday, we were snuggling in bed, he hugged me really tight and told me he loves me so much, and he would do this cute giggle randomly, I ask him why he's giggling, he said he's just happy. It's something he's done/said a number of times now, it's very sweet. I can tell he's genuinely happy to be with me and that makes me happy

[notalady]

It sounds like you guys had an awesome birthday dinner what did you get him for his birthday? (I'm nosey lol)

 

I really don't think you need to worry with him- he sounds like he's on the same page as you.

 

I missed this post completely haha! Faraday, I got him a gift card to the website where you book all the sports event tickets (and also other events like concerts), because I know he likes going to live sports, but I don't think there's anything good at the moment (that and the fact that I know very little about what's good lol!!) and also a huge scented candle because he loves scented candles. For v day, I gave him a jar of paper hearts with various things written on them that he can redeem with me (like those love coupons but I just wrote them on hearts instead), one of them is to go to a sports event with him. So I said, he can redeem one of the hearts along with the gift card

 

Faraday, you're totally right. I find it hugely important to know the guy's view on marriage in general. If they seem negative about it or ambivalent, I would be concerned. J has always been really positive when he talks about marriages and married couples. He loves going to weddings (what a weirdo He seems to welcome and celebrate commitment rather than fear it. His parents are happily married at close to 60 and his 90 year old grandparents are also happily married. I think he grew up in an environment where he's seen a lot of happiness and warmth within marriages and families and that makes a huge difference to one's mindset towards it.

 

So yes, I will definitely be focusing on just enjoying getting to know him and the relationship itself

[Ms Darcy]

Freezing eggs is great in theory, but in practicality...not so much.

 

It costs a few thousand dollars (in canada it ranges between 5-10 thousand (per egg cycle stimulation that you need) plus storage fees...and results are not guaranteed...using thawed eggs, live birth rate is 4.5%-12%...where as if the eggs are fertilized and then frozen, there is over a 50% live birth success rate. So on top of frozen eggs not as often producing a child, they also carry the risks that ivf carry, such as low birth weight and multiple fertilization.

 

The technology is still very young. It will get better....but right now...it should not be considered a good back up plan. The best plan is to get pregnant before 35.

 

I agree the process is not an insurance policy or a surefire way to have a baby. It's important to note that it is new and that freezing methods have recently and rapidly improved. I also think that it's important to note that it's very expensive.

 

The live birth rates also depend on where you are getting that information. I did read a study via Time magazine where the live birth rate for 2013 was closer to 24/25% (414 eggs thawed, 99 babies born) - which is definitely low. However, generally, women are generally advised to freeze 15-20 eggs to account for that.

 

There are other prohibitions - women who are too thin, too fat, smokers, drinkers, are on medications (etc) are not good candidates and have lower success. And because genetic testing is limited on the eggs, you don't know if you are unfreezing bad eggs.

 

And in talking to my OBGYN, she said that freezing embryos also has greater success (even more expensive). But she noted that it's been an option for a while, especially for oncology patients and it can work. In an ideal world, one would just get pregnant naturally. But yes, it's not the end-all-be-all.

[Ms Darcy]

Thanks ladies for your input I'm not that concerned about fertility at this stage and rather spend my money elsewhere lol... I'm still not sure at this stage if I would even want to try if I (or future partner) have fertility issues. Such a pain and expensive and I'm not even completely sold on having kids just yet lol...Maybe in a few years if I feel the need to, I'll look into it.

 

That's a good attitude. Ignore us ... we're just got side-tracked with the fertility stuff.

[notalady]

That's a good attitude. Ignore us ... we're just got side-tracked with the fertility stuff.

 

Haha no problem, it's all very informative

[notalady]

You know, we often see threads on here about failed relationships that just weren't meant to work right from the start, long distance, casual dating, dating co-workers, marriage/moving in too soon, and we always say, what did you expect, it was a bad idea to start with. But it's funny when I look around, I know couples who started with long stance, casual dating, as co-workers, got married / engaged after 6 months etc, and happily married for 10+ years. It's just interesting to see. I think part of it is just luck, if you happened to meet the right person at the right time, those less than ideal circumstances may be an obstacle, but not enough to stop the relationship from succeeding.

 

One of my single girl friends in her late 20s has been talking to a guy from another country (about 4 hour flight) that she met on OKC. She's a smart and self aware girl, who's got good boundaries and good self esteem. At first she told me they're just chatting as friends with no plan for it to develop further. She just needed the company I guess and she admitted that. Later she told me the guy stopped messaging for a week, she messaged to see how he's doing, and he said he had just started dating someone else and so didn't want to continue talking. She said she thought there was something special between them but she understands he wanted to date someone in his city and said she wish him the best. He said he actually didn't know if he's doing the right thing, that he does feel something special between them but he doesn't know if the long distance thing would work. So they kept in touch after that, and shortly after, he said he had broke it off with the other woman he was dating (probably only a few weeks of dating it sounds like). Also by the time we were talking about this, he had planned a work trip to come visit our country and will stop by our city for a weekend, so they planned to meet and get to know each other.

 

Now, when I heard this of course I was extreme sceptical, and reminded her that he may be expecting or hoping for sex, also to remind her that he could still be dating someone else at home, she just wouldn't know. She acknowledged those possibilities and said she will most definitely not be sleeping with him when they meet and she really need to get to know him in person first to see if there's even any chemistry.

 

So yesterday when we were catching up, she told me they had met and it had gone really well. They kissed but nothing sexual of course. He had arranged to take nearly two week holiday in our city for the end of this month, she has taken this time off as well, so they'll spend the whole time together, he will be staying at her place (she has 3 bedrooms). She said it's just to get to know each other but if by the end of the trip it feels right, they may end up having sex (I have no doubt that will happen lol). Again, I feel like it's all going too fast and spending two weeks together is a lot when you barely know someone. Since its already booked, I told her as long as she's focussing on getting to know him and finding out if they are compatible, spending that time together is probably a good thing (since they can't otherwise do so), she agreed that's what she intends to do. I also shared with her how the first time I spent more than two days with J it felt a bit much, even after a few months of dating, because I wasn't getting alone time, but after that I got used to it and it's fine. So I hope they don't get sick of each other from spending so much time together. She said she needs alone time too but hadn't thought about the fact they will be spending 24/7 together for such a long time (she's never done that before with any of her previous dates). I suggested they do their own thing some of the time during his visit and she thought it was a great idea.

 

I hope it goes well for her. I mean I can easily see this crash and burn. But at the same time, I don't want to be so cynical either lol... The guy seems nice in their photos together. He planned the trip to visit around her birthday so he can celebrate with her, and he actually asked her out officially, so that he knows which day would be their "anniversary", she told me sometimes when they Skype, they just stare into each other's eyes (reminded me of J and I haha), he sounds like a sweet guy, so I don't want to jinx it but I'll just be the voice of reason for her if she needs it. If it works out, that's great. If not, well, sometimes the only way we learn is through experience.

[Batya33]

Sure, there are obstacles but she is an adult as is he - has she asked you for advice, to be the "voice of reason"? Interestingly ,when my husband was thinking of asking me to get back together after almost 8 years apart he asked his friend for advice (because we were going to be long distance, for one thing and his friend knew our previous history). The friend cautioned against his asking me that soon -we had been out twice in two weeks, platonically - and instead to keep in touch long distance and see each other again when he came to town (2 plus hour plane trip). Luckily he didn't do that - I was in the middle of starting to date someone else/meeting people and I would not have been that keen on staying in touch casually long distance. Of course I could have met someone else local and balanced the long distance obstacle against that.

 

I have had unsolicited "voice of reason" input over the years and some of it was helpful. Some of it was not helpful because, since I didn't ask for advice, the timing was off and/or I wasn't ready to hear it.

 

The only minor concern I would have in your friend's situation is that he stopped talking to her entirely and she had to contact him after a week -hopefully that's not his MO if he decides he wants to stop dating her. But, it's minor.

 

One of my friends said the other day that I got married "because you were lucky". I think part of it is luck/timing but only part, at least for me.

[faraday]

I can't imagine spending two weeks with a (pretty much complete) stranger staying in my house. But I'm introverted and if I don't get extensive times alone everyday, I get completely drained. But wow. That's crazy.

 

The only thing I've noticed watching the boards and life...is that when things go at warped speed with strangers, it always crashes. I've never seen something move fast that turned out well.

 

batya is right, you can't give unsolicited advice...but you can be there to pick up the pieces

[itsallgrand]

Wow. I agree about unsolicited advise.

It does seem odd to me he isn't staying in a hotel and that she is ok with having a stranger living in her home who may be a safety risk to her. Seems unwise to me especially considering they could still test things out for two weeks without that risk or emphasis on sex.

[Batya33]

Yes and I want to comment that I would give unsolicited advice if I thought the decision was dangerous. And definitely be there to pick up the emotional pieces/ fall out!

 

I definitely would not do that for 2 weeks and honestly wouldn't love the idea of a new person visiting for that long if he was depending on me a lot for entertainment.

[notalady]

Lol, no she didn't ask me explicitly for advice or to be the "voice of reason", at the same time I didn't ask her when I was having issues with Z, and she gave me her opinions at the time anyway. We share our dating experiences with each other a lot including giving our opinion on things, I don't consider it unsolicited advice and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

 

If I was to give "unsolicited advice", I would've said I think it's a bad idea to let him come visit for that long and stay at her place. I would've also told her right from the start that long distance with a stranger often doesn't work out. Heck I would've told her that even chatting to him at the start was likely going to be a waste of time since he's so far away. I didn't do any of that during any of those events. I told her I was excited for her but reminded her of a few things to be mindful of in the situations she was getting into, if she hadn't already said so herself, communicated in a way that's either assuming she already knows these things or in a way that I'm just sharing my experience, if she can identify with it and thinks it applies to her and it helps her, which is often the case, that's great. If not, that's fine too.

 

For example I told her jokingly that I hope they don't get sick of each other then shared my experience with J when we first spent more than a couple days together, she identified with that straight away because she's an introvert and hadn't really thought about this need for "alone time" (which I was a bit surprised by), and was worried now if that will be an issue, I suggested if they could do their own things some of the time, even for a couple of hours, that should help. she was very appreciative of that suggestion and said she would discuss that with him, also told me that she's still learning a lot about herself and wished she had more relationship experience (since she's never been in a LTR before, she has dated a number of guys for 3-4 months but never spent 24/7 together). I told her she'll figure it out in no time, and that I'm happy to share mine with her if/when she wants.

[Batya33]

To me unsolicited advice is giving advice or input that the other person did not ask for, even when it's sugarcoated with "I'm just sharing how I do things" - kinda obvious when you "remind" someone to be "mindful" - if she said it first then no need to remind her and if you know she knows that, then why repeat it. Of course if she did the same with respect to you and Z then you two have an understanding that that is ok and not overstepping. I also wouldn't tell someone "I hope you don't get sick of each other" because she is totally excited about this - why inject negativity or cynicism into it?

 

I really don't mean to pick apart what you shared with her - I know it looks that way typed like that and I don't mean to make that impression. The problem is that your way of sharing your experiences might turn her off from or at least make her wary of sharing with you if it doesn't go well because even if you don't say it she'll assume you are thinking "told you so/should have followed my advice".

 

It's really helpful when someone gets to make their own mistakes (short of putting themselves in imminent danger) -that is how the person learns best. You have found a good match so far with J and be careful of venturing to close to "smug married" land where you give input based on your relationship - sure, you've learned too but I bet you learned far more by doing your back and forth with Z, by experiencing his hot/cold behavior than if you had broken it off right away based on someone else's input. You had to go through that, IMO to get to a place where you'd know what to look for in a good match for you.

[notalady]

Yes we have an understanding that it's ok to share such views with each other, I don't do that with everyone, just a few that are close enough to me. If I'm not close to someone, I just smile and nod and would never comment in these situations. Even when I do share my opinion, it was never "that's a bad idea, you should do this instead". I also did not share my experience with J as in "look at me, I did it this way and it worked better", I was saying I had trouble adjusting to spending extended periods of time together at first, and that's just me. She identified with that and found it helpful.

 

I think we have different views on giving input on things with people we're close to so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

However agree that people have to make their own mistakes, hence I never said or implied what she's doing (now or in the past with regards to other dates) is a bad idea even if I thought so.

[Batya33]

Deleted because if I don't give unsolicited input then describing what works for me makes no sense ;-)

[notalady]

I get what you mean. My dad loves giving unsolicited advice, sometimes it's extremely helpful and I'm grateful that he gave that advice, sometimes not. If I try to say we just have a different point of view so let's agree to disagree, he wouldn't agree to that, he'll still try to convince me his view is right lol, or sometimes I convince him, but there's never in between lol... This just means that I won't be sharing things that I know he disagrees with. So yes I completely get where you're coming from. That's why I'm always mindful when I share my opinion with others to ensure it's something that the person is receptive of, and very rarely share my views if not asked when it comes to things I disagree with as long as it's something that doesn't affect me (eg someone else's life choices).

[notalady]

Deleted because if I don't give unsolicited input then describing what works for me makes no sense ;-)

 

Hahaha! Too late, I read it and thank you for your "unsolicited input"

[notalady]

I can't imagine spending two weeks with a (pretty much complete) stranger staying in my house. But I'm introverted and if I don't get extensive times alone everyday, I get completely drained. But wow. That's crazy.

 

The only thing I've noticed watching the boards and life...is that when things go at warped speed with strangers, it always crashes. I've never seen something move fast that turned out well.

 

That's what I thought. But yes it's her mistake to make (if it is in fact one). She's smart when it comes to learning what works and what doesn't in dating, so she'll learn fast.

[Batya33]

Hahaha! Too late, I read it and thank you for your "unsolicited input"

 

LOL -just understand I deleted it with the best of intentions as I realized it was hypocritical.

[faraday]

LOL -just understand I deleted it with the best of intentions as I realized it was hypocritical.

 

I thought you did it intentionally and it made me laugh

[notalady]

I stayed at J's over the Easter weekend (4 nights), it was really awesome. If relationship is a dance, I think we're really finding our groove, being more at ease than ever being in each other's company, little jokes and friendly teasing, affectionate hugs and kisses, or just sit in comfortable silence or watching tv. We get along just great and work well as a team, like cooking together, when we have differences, such as I like to measure ingredients if using a recipe and he likes to just wing it, and I was cutting things differently, he just thinks it's funny and adorable that I do things differently. Or when we were leaving the house, with the slow cooker on to cook while we're out, I noticed the light on the cooker seemed to be off right before we were leaving, and asked him about it, he looked at it and realised he had turned off the switch by mistake when he was suppose to turn off the switch for the iron! He was not defensive or annoyed that I pointed out his mistake, but excitedly exclaiming oh my god, lucky you were here, I would've left the house with the iron left on (and no dinner)! What do I do without you! Then gave me this huge hug. I thought it was quite cute. Or when we played pool in doubles with my friend C and her new boyfriend E (the long distance one), J would give me tips about which balls to hit and the angle etc and in turn I'm open to his tips and it worked really well. We were kind to each other, there was no criticising or blaming or bossing around, just a bit of laughter and fun as it should be. I think it became more obvious each day, in particular when we spend time with friends who are couples, that we not only accept each other's flaws and quirks and never once attempted to change each other, we love and appreciate these imperfections as that's what make the other person unique.

 

Speaking of C and E, as mentioned previously, he's visiting for 8 days. It was interesting watching their dynamic. It's a very new relationship of course and they're still trying to figure each other out. I just noticed a few things like she seemed to criticise or argue with him a fair bit (I think often jokingly but it doesn't quite come across that way). During pool, she complained that he wasn't helping her, but he did a couple of times and she just ignored it (this was J's observation), and one time he pointed out she shouldn't hit the 8 ball, if it was me, I would just playfully told him I already knew or joke that I didn't know that, but with a big smile so they know I'm joking, C responded with "geez do you think I'm stupid" with a semi serious face. I think E was a bit confused and didn't know what to do/say to that. Same thing when driving, C was driving, I didn't hear what E said exactly but something about the way the lanes are set was stupid, I think she misheard and told him off, and he said no I meant the lanes not you! You're fine. It was a bit tense and awkward to be honest, we kinda laughed and joked to lighten the moment. Then at the bar, E was swearing (the f word) about peanut crumbs on his pants, he did seem to swear a fair bit for no good reason and it's something I would find a turn off if it's my date. Appears to be the case too with C, she told him off, said something like "E, language!" And I laughed along to make light of the moment. But I think she shouldn't have to tell him off. At most, just speak to him privately, once, that she doesn't like his swearing, if he changes or becomes more mindful, great, if not, she would have to choose to accept it or not, but you shouldn't have to teach a grown man about social etiquette or appropriate language. She told me that he's a bit sensitive and a bit intense, seems to take things quite seriously and doesn't like (good natured) teasing, but she seems accepting and accomodating of that fact, so that's good. I hope they iron out their differences, but strictly personal opinion, I'm not overly optimistic (not that I would say this to her).

[faraday]

I meant to comment on this earlier. It sounds like things are going really good, I'm happy for you When I do things different my Jay thinks I'm adorable too...it's really nice to be with someone who looks at our differences as being another reason to cherish me and a way to learn from each other, instead of with judgement or not understanding. I'm glad you've found that.

[notalady]

Hey faraday, thanks for your lovely post! I agree, it's really nice to have. Finding someone who accept our differences may be hard but finding someone who appreciate those differences is even harder! We're lucky