30 And Never Had A Girlfriend, Too Ugly?

[arjumand]

Have you considered a professional matchmaker? Two of my friends used two different ones and are now happily married. One was 36, barely dated, got lots of therapy and then decided she was ready for marriage. Paid for a top-tier matchmaker who dealt with professionals (she was a newscaster). Third guy she met—who she would definitely NOT have met/considered on her own—and boom! He is a navy nurse, they move around the country and have three stunning children and a happy relationship. He is retiring from the navy soon and then they can settle in one place, which will make her working life much easier. 

[Batya33]

22 minutes ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

That's great, and I am 110% glad for you that you knew early on what you wanted, but that's not the experience for me.

That's not why I shared it as you know -I wrote that other people don't know till later. My point was it makes no sense at least to me not to know what you want simply because you've never tried it.  People try all sorts of things and want to try and form goals about things they have little or no hands on experience with - people choose jobs and careers and professions and trades starting with a sense that this is something that might suit them in the future. 

Just because you've never had a child doesn't mean you can't think about whether having a child is a goal of yours -because if you want to date women in your age range many will want to know if children are a future goal or not.  If you respond with "well how would I know??? I've never been a father or raised a child!!" many will think you're joking or odd.  Or both. 

Same with marriage - one of my serious boyfriends had his first serious girlfriend in his late 20s -had dated very little before that.  His face was not attractive looking -that is true, he would have said the same but I found him attractive and he sparkled! Yet with only having one relationship -and even before that relationship -he knew he wanted to be serious with a woman, he knew he likely would want to be a married father.  While we were breaking up he dated one woman who really wanted him//wanted to marry him but he didn't want her. 

He knew -having never been married -that he didn't want marriage with her.  But after we broke up (he wanted to marry me, I did not feel the same) he met a very attractive woman and they got married 3 years after he and I broke up.  They've been married over a dozen years and have a son. He is an example of a person who had very little relationship experience but didn't need that experience to know his goal was marriage and family.

I had a friend in grad school. She did not have an attractive looking face.  It was kind of funny looking actually.  She was (is!) a very intelligent person -brilliant.  Also a very kind, compassionate and giving person. 

She met a man who did not have an attractive looking face.  He was funny looking - I mean no judgment -very nice person with physical features that were funny looking.  They fell in love.  I loved seeing them together -so obviously enamored of each other and not in a loud or gushy way. 

She told me when she was pregnant that her husband said to her "you are  the most beautiful pregnant woman I have ever seen." You know I totally see why he said that and believe he meant it with his heart and soul (they've now been married about 30 years). It's not about looks -looks matter of course but it's really about chemistry -to me anyway chemistry comes only partly from physical features -sometimes a really small part I think.  

My husband is short.  I think he's cute and handsome.  I know of several women who never would have found him attractive because he is short.

He gained some weight during the pandemic.  I did not (took some doing not to gain weight given pandemic but I worked at it) -I'm slim.  I've aged for sure and I don't feel that attractive anymore.

Today he left on a short business trip and we hugged and kissed goodbye.  I couldn't care less if he's gained some weight and he didn't care that I was in a big t-shirt with my hair in a scrunchie - we kissed and hugged because we love each other and we still spark for each other -looks matter but are mostly besides the point.

He was a very shy awkward guy in his late 20/early 30s.  Very little relationship experience but on our 4th date -he was 28, I was 29  he said to me he thought we were going to be good together, that I should give things a chance - he said it with confidence.  And without real relationship experience.  Why should anyone need relationship experience to know they want to be with someone in a potentially serious relationship??

[Batya33]

17 minutes ago, arjumand said:

Have you considered a professional matchmaker? Two of my friends used two different ones and are now happily married. One was 36, barely dated, got lots of therapy and then decided she was ready for marriage. Paid for a top-tier matchmaker who dealt with professionals (she was a newscaster). Third guy she met—who she would definitely NOT have met/considered on her own—and boom! He is a navy nurse, they move around the country and have three stunning children and a happy relationship. He is retiring from the navy soon and then they can settle in one place, which will make her working life much easier. 

I agree and know of professional matchmakers who are really good at what they do.  When I was in my 30s I almost went to consult with one in my city -the only reason I didn't was because she wanted me to meet her at her apartment the first time and I just didn't feel safe/comfortable to do so.  Also I was contacted by matchmakers on certain dating sites looking to interview me and see if I should meet one of their clients -but it never went anywhere.  

[DarkCh0c0]

1 hour ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

Sure, but each of these people runs a business, and their business is in keeping me. They would of course promise wonderful things, but I would need regular sessions to get anywhere. Honestly it just feels like a scam. 

See, with such self-defeating attitude, you're not going to go too far in life.

You talk as if you're a victim of coaches you haven't even met nor tried. You're not a victim. You're an adult and you get to choose how many sessions you want and when to stop when you find no value.

Seriously, since a consultation is free, what do you have to lose? This is YOU now standing in your own way.

[smackie9]

3 hours ago, Carnatic said:

I've had this suggested on here myself before. What do people think about this advice. I'd worry that female friends I approached to ask might think I was coming on to them.

Well I can see part of the problem. You are pessimistic on everything. Lighten up and relax. You don't know what they think so stop assuming the worst. Before you ask just explain WHY you are asking, that you just want some honest input to work on correcting/adjusting things. Women usually want to help with such things. Hell we tell our husbands what to wear or gently "guide" them lol. 

[moodindigo91]

2 hours ago, smackie9 said:

Well I can see part of the problem. You are pessimistic on everything.

Yes this is what I was getting at with my responses before regarding having an excuse/response for everything and being lax about your approach. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy it seems. 

[Tinydance]

5 hours ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

That's great, and I am 110% glad for you that you knew early on what you wanted, but that's not the experience for me.

Sure, but each of these people runs a business, and their business is in keeping me. They would of course promise wonderful things, but I would need regular sessions to get anywhere. Honestly it just feels like a scam. 

Are you really asking for a word-for-word account of every women I've approached? I'm talking over a 10 year period, so my answers will be a little more 'general'. Some will respond in different ways to different questions. When talking to women who I've met through other friends, I've asked them out, only to be hit with the "sorry I'm not looking for a relationship" line, only to see them a couple weeks later on the arm of a handsome man. Other times it's just generally brushed off. Other times they are mysteriously busy. A few months ago started a conversation with a woman and she was physically repulsed at the sight of me, and just sort of buried her head in her phone until I began to talk to someone else.

Nope, I'm not just out there hitting on anything with a pulse, sometimes I do genuinely just enjoy being friends.

I mean, this is just my lived experience, I can only tell you what I know.

Like I said, I don't think I'm terrible looking, that's just the data I'm extrapolating from 30 years of never having anybody interested in me. When my face is the first thing people see, even knowing literally nothing about me, will turn me down on, and other people with 'game' can't get a date using photos of me, it does seem pretty 'open and shut', your honour.

Supposing for a second I'm a decent looking, funny, intelligent, kind person, I would absolutely not be in this situation. I know verifiably that the last three are true, but the first is difficult to be objective about when it's yourself. Like I said, people do treat you different when you're ugly, it's just a different world out there.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here but just because a woman wasn't interested in you and "buried her face in her phone", do you actually have evidence that she found you repulsive? Sometimes people just aren't interested for all sorts of reasons. Maybe she wasn't single, maybe she actually needed to do something on her phone, maybe she just wasn't feeling a spark. 

I mean, usually when people call themselves ugly they can actually say what it is about them they think if ugly. For example, people have posted here before who said they had some kind of face deformity. Also people might say they're overweight or have acne or something like that. BUT even having said that, there are plenty of overweight people and people with acne who actually found someone.

I mean, yes it's easier for attractive people to find someone. But then there are plenty of people out there who are just average or even below average. Out in the real world the number of hot people isn't that high. Maybe if you're watching Hollywood movies you might think everyone is attractive but in reality that's not the case.

You seem to have really latched on to this idea that you're unattractive and you're even using words like ugly and repulsive. I think the first step is to stop calling yourself that. 

If some women said to you: "I'm not looking for a relationship", yeah maybe they weren't into you. That doesn't necessarily mean that you're ugly or you did anything wrong. Sometimes people just aren't interested and though it sounds cliche, it's just they're not feeling the spark. Everyone actually gets rejected in dating, it's not just you. I've been rejected quite a bit over the years. 

You also seem to think that other people are having good luck with dating, but you're not. You seem to be under the impression that other guys are finding women on online dating for example. As I mentioned, a number of my male friends said they hardly get any matches on online dating. I actually know them so I can definitely say they are not ugly and don't have anything wrong with them.

Dating is very hard work and does require a lot of effort and getting rejected. 

Also I agree, you sound negative in some of your posts. And not actually very confident from some of the things you say about yourself.

[Wiseman2]

On 10/18/2022 at 7:02 PM, MysteriousTelephone said:

I have been told many times that I'm ugly, 

Sorry this is happening. Who exactly, tells you this?

You seem to be doing everything right so it's doubtful that that is the issue.

Tinder is a poor app to be on. If you can afford all these activities you can afford  quality dating apps.

Make sure you're not buying into manoshere ideology.

 

[Carnatic]

I've found myself identifying with some of the stuff the OP has said on this thread.

People tend to be a bit incredulous that if you are unattractive, people will just flat-out tell you that you're ugly.

They do... they very much do.

It's not so much people who are rejecting you when you ask them out that call you ugly (or at least in my experience with women as a straight guy), it's more just random people, friends of friends, people you don't know, people you're meeting for the first time... that kind of thing. I've had the whole 'woah you must have had a rough paper round' when telling people my age. They're not even really trying to offend or upset you, there is this assumption that if you are a bit 'unfortunate looking' that you must have developed a sense of humour about it and be able to laugh at yourself when other people make jokes at your expense.

It's my belief though that straight cis-men cannot tell whether another guy is attractive or not. I don't think I can; in terms of hearing friends (straight women or gay men) talking about celebrities I am sometimes surprised by who is considered hot and who is considered not. Also it's mostly guys calling out other guys for being ugly, I don't know if the OP has that experience too, I can't think of too many times a woman (or gay guy for that matter) said I was ugly and those times I can are as a teenager when people were far more toxic and brutal with their assessments than we are now as adults.

So idk, we should both learn perhaps to take the jibes with a pinch of salt and think, if I'm right, that the guy making jokes about us being ugly really has no idea whether women would find us attractive or not. As a general rule, men are ***holes and obsessed with viewing the world in hierarchical terms with champions (alphas) at the top and losers down below, and a significant proportion of other men, will within minutes of meeting you, want to establish themselves as higher on the hierarchy than you are. They may not even realise they're doing it, hence the ones who don't dislike you and think it's all just joking, but subtly jokes that reassure them that they're top dog.

[Batya33]

33 minutes ago, Carnatic said:

So idk, we should both learn perhaps to take the jibes with a pinch of salt and think, if I'm right, that the guy making jokes about us being ugly really has no idea whether women would find us attractive or not. As a general rule, men are ***holes and obsessed with viewing the world in hierarchical terms with champions (alphas) at the top and losers down below, and a significant proportion of other men, will within minutes of meeting you, want to establish themselves as higher on the hierarchy than you are. They may not even realise they're doing it, hence the ones who don't dislike you and think it's all just joking, but subtly jokes that reassure them that they're top dog.

I'm so sorry you've had such negative experiences and have this low opinion of men generally.  I have not in the last 50 years or so. The absolute opposite and still true.  There will always be people who make rude and nasty comments - about height (my husband and son are both short), looks, etc.  I know people who act like jerks, people who are kind, compassionate and thoughtful (I met one in person this week - etc. I was just reminding my mother last night that one of my junior high school classmates made fun of how I looked in my designer jeans in 8th grade. 

We talked about how she and I have been back in touch the last 15 years or so and she did change.  A lot.  And some of those nasty people I went to junior high/high school with did not.

My son is not a jerk.  In fact he is 13 and goes out of his way to do the right thing and be kind and thoughtful.  Just like his daddy.  

I'm not going to try to  change your opinion -you do you.  It does inform a lot why you might find yourself with particular struggles in the dating world.  At least to me.  

[DarkCh0c0]

@Carnaticthat's a very good analysis.

It's also so easy to use "I'm ugly" as a scapegoat as to why someone can't find a date. Just say you're ugly and it's like you're putting the blame on something you can't control. If you think so low of yourself, it won't help you get dates. Women can also see it if you think so low of yourself.

Instead, a change in attitude including an appreciation for your unique features would be more helpful. You might even consider changing haircut, wardrobe, or beard style to enhance your nice features. When you appreciate yourself, others will start to do so too.

[Tinydance]

I'm not sure what kinds of people some people associate with but amongst everyone I know I've never heard anybody tell others they're ugly. What a horrible thing to say.

I don't know if I'm just too optimistic but I honestly don't see that many ugly people around? I actually do like people watching. I do it every time I'm out and I'm not driving, especially when I'm by myself. I honestly don't see many ugly people or any really.

Then again I think ugly or repulsive are very strong words. Most people are not ugly or repulsive. That's why I just find it hard to believe that the only reason why someone can't find a partner is because they're ugly. 

Also I know it's easy to think that if someone is not interested in us, it must be about our looks. I think in most cases it's not. Even if it technically is about looks, that's probably just because attraction is subjective. Someone could look perfectly fine or even attractive and yet some people won't be into them.

[kctiger]

The problem with the term ugly or unattractive is that it is entirely subjective. A woman I find attractive may be unattractive, or downright repulsive, to my friend, and vice versa. 

I think I'm an attractive guy and I assure you not every women would agree with me 🤣.  The immediate attraction may be based on physical, but it takes a hell of a lot more than just looks to actually sustain a relationship. I can attest to that being 100% true. 

When I did use those superficial dating apps, such as Tinder, I had no issues getting matches, but I never got anything remotely sustainable out of any of those matches. 

Looks get you in the door, but personality, charisma, charm, etc. keep you in the room and take you to a deeper connection. At the very least, you seem to be intelligent and capable of an informed conversation. That's more than a lot of people can offer. 

Someone already brought this up I think, but it seems to me you label yourself confident but then call yourself ugly. That may indirectly affect the way you talk to women, even if you don't sense it. Women sense fear, desperation and low self-confidence like sharks sense blood. 

[Kwothe28]

2 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Just say you're ugly and it's like you're putting the blame on something you can't control.

Not to be "that guy", but with enough money and wonders of modern medicine you can even "control" that. 😁

I consider myself "average". I am tall which sets me up above the average(lots of ladies tend to like that) but I dont consider myself above in beauty. But to be fair, I consider most of people "average". What Carnatic has said is true, I trully couldnt have said to you if another guy is objectively beautiful or not. For girls I could, I had a coworker, she is tall, pretty, handsome, has very long hair and dresses up attractive. For example I would consider her "above the rest" in beauty. But even for most of girls I dated, I couldnt. I considered them pretty but not above the rest. For example, girl I came to this Forum for advice, was pretty and fit but was also small and had a really big thighs for her build(she trained yoga but her weight was mostly there). That kind of thinking worked in my favor as I never put the girls I dated on a pedestal in terms of beauty standards so I dont think I dont have a shot there. You try, see if they are responding properly, if they dont you move on, if they do call on date and see what they say. 

That is why I think OP should just keep trying. Maybe I am like his friends and think that somebody should find him attractive and that he overexagerates there when he says "ugly". But I dont think that works in his favor as it kills his self- esteem. You have to think good about yourself and consider yourself "a catch". If you dont, you will never convince other people that you are one.

[Carnatic]

2 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I'm so sorry you've had such negative experiences and have this low opinion of men generally.  I have not in the last 50 years or so. The absolute opposite and still true.

35 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

I'm not sure what kinds of people some people associate with but amongst everyone I know I've never heard anybody tell others they're ugly. What a horrible thing to say.

I

I don't hate all men, but it took me till probably my mid-twenties to start finding groups who weren't so toxic and learn to avoid the ones that were. The whole toxic masculinity thing, for a lot of guys, this is the only way to be a guy they see, other people and other groups you could be part of don't stand out as much (usually because they're the sort of guys who would get beaten up at school for being 'girly'). Even guys who are deep down really nice, might be pretending they're 'one of the lads' when you see them out and about. I was probably guilty of this too, not the really toxic stuff like attitudes towards women or competitiveness towards other men, but certainly it was like me and all the other 'nice' guys were pretending to fit in because we didn't realise how numerous we were and were just worried about getting beat up.

It wasn't really till our mid twenties that people like me and also guys I call close friends today started to come out of the woodwork and realise that we were all just pretending out of self preservation and none of us wanted to be like this.

[MysteriousTelephone]

20 hours ago, Batya33 said:

He was a very shy awkward guy in his late 20/early 30s.  Very little relationship experience but on our 4th date -he was 28, I was 29  he said to me he thought we were going to be good together, that I should give things a chance - he said it with confidence.  And without real relationship experience.  Why should anyone need relationship experience to know they want to be with someone in a potentially serious relationship??

What I'm saying is, it's all very well saying I want XYZ from life, if I have zero experience in that field it's just all theoretical. Many people want to become lawyers, then over the course of studying and passing the bar, they realise it's not for them. Some think moving abroad will be the best thing ever, then they do it and it's not what they thought. You get the idea. What I'm saying is that although the 'traditional' life path sounds good on paper, at this stage in my relationship development it's very difficult to say if that's for me.

19 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

See, with such self-defeating attitude, you're not going to go too far in life.

You talk as if you're a victim of coaches you haven't even met nor tried. You're not a victim. You're an adult and you get to choose how many sessions you want and when to stop when you find no value.

Seriously, since a consultation is free, what do you have to lose? This is YOU now standing in your own way.

I really don't see how it's "self defeating" to acknowledge it is a field with zero qualifications required, with an open-ended business structure with no finish line, and no guarantees of it working. If you had a water problem, and you paid the same plumber to come over every week to 'assess' what's wrong, for about 4 months, eventually you'd say he has a financial interest in this. 

16 hours ago, moodindigo91 said:

Yes this is what I was getting at with my responses before regarding having an excuse/response for everything and being lax about your approach. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy it seems. 

I wouldn't say I have an answer for everything, I'm being bombarded with questions and doing the best I can to answer them all. I really did my best to emphasise in my initial post that confidence is not the issue and that I have many social activities that lean towards finding relationships, and the chief issue I am facing is being perceived as 'ugly'. Yet I'm still getting asked things like 'Have you tried asking girls out?' and 'maybe try meeting new people?', it's almost as if some people didn't read it.

15 hours ago, Tinydance said:

I'm just playing devil's advocate here but just because a woman wasn't interested in you and "buried her face in her phone", do you actually have evidence that she found you repulsive? Sometimes people just aren't interested for all sorts of reasons. Maybe she wasn't single, maybe she actually needed to do something on her phone, maybe she just wasn't feeling a spark. 

I mean, usually when people call themselves ugly they can actually say what it is about them they think if ugly. For example, people have posted here before who said they had some kind of face deformity. Also people might say they're overweight or have acne or something like that. BUT even having said that, there are plenty of overweight people and people with acne who actually found someone.

I mean, yes it's easier for attractive people to find someone. But then there are plenty of people out there who are just average or even below average. Out in the real world the number of hot people isn't that high. Maybe if you're watching Hollywood movies you might think everyone is attractive but in reality that's not the case.

You seem to have really latched on to this idea that you're unattractive and you're even using words like ugly and repulsive. I think the first step is to stop calling yourself that. 

If some women said to you: "I'm not looking for a relationship", yeah maybe they weren't into you. That doesn't necessarily mean that you're ugly or you did anything wrong. Sometimes people just aren't interested and though it sounds cliche, it's just they're not feeling the spark. Everyone actually gets rejected in dating, it's not just you. I've been rejected quite a bit over the years. 

You also seem to think that other people are having good luck with dating, but you're not. You seem to be under the impression that other guys are finding women on online dating for example. As I mentioned, a number of my male friends said they hardly get any matches on online dating. I actually know them so I can definitely say they are not ugly and don't have anything wrong with them.

Dating is very hard work and does require a lot of effort and getting rejected. 

Also I agree, you sound negative in some of your posts. And not actually very confident from some of the things you say about yourself.

Evidence? Okay, no, but honestly if I could show you her facial expression, you could absolutely read it like a book. Was perfectly happy and smiley when someone else was talking, but when I asked how her day was, she looked at me like I'd just ran over her cat, and said next to nothing. Honest to god, if you showed up at that precise moment, put a gun to her head and told her she had to choose between chewing her own arm off or going on a date with me, she'd have said "Pass the ***ing salt!"

Again, I really don't think I'm ugly, I've always maintained I'm in some ballpark of 'normal', don't we all? This is just the experience I've had.

I've not said that "everyone else" has good luck with dating, but of every male I know... it's more than zero. I mean, the difference between "zero" and "not a lot" is about as big as you can get. Apply it to: money, sleep, vacations, oxygen. You get the idea.

Like I said, I am confident in myself, we're just talking about a fairly negative subject. The things in my life that I'm good at or enjoy are all fine and dandy, they're just not relevant to this conversation.

4 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Sorry this is happening. Who exactly, tells you this?

You seem to be doing everything right so it's doubtful that that is the issue.

 

I'm not getting names and addresses, but I do get called it a fair amount, yes. A little more in my late teens early 20s, now it's only occasional, or people learn to be more polite about it.

And that really brings around to the crux of my point, if I'm doing everything else right, that can be the ONLY issue.

4 hours ago, Carnatic said:

I've found myself identifying with some of the stuff the OP has said on this thread.

People tend to be a bit incredulous that if you are unattractive, people will just flat-out tell you that you're ugly.

They do... they very much do.

It's not so much people who are rejecting you when you ask them out that call you ugly (or at least in my experience with women as a straight guy), it's more just random people, friends of friends, people you don't know, people you're meeting for the first time... that kind of thing. I've had the whole 'woah you must have had a rough paper round' when telling people my age. They're not even really trying to offend or upset you, there is this assumption that if you are a bit 'unfortunate looking' that you must have developed a sense of humour about it and be able to laugh at yourself when other people make jokes at your expense.

It's my belief though that straight cis-men cannot tell whether another guy is attractive or not. I don't think I can; in terms of hearing friends (straight women or gay men) talking about celebrities I am sometimes surprised by who is considered hot and who is considered not. Also it's mostly guys calling out other guys for being ugly, I don't know if the OP has that experience too, I can't think of too many times a woman (or gay guy for that matter) said I was ugly and those times I can are as a teenager when people were far more toxic and brutal with their assessments than we are now as adults.

Sure, it does happen. I would say I get called unattractive more from women than men. I think I can tell when another man is attractive, or what features of his I think stand out the most.

1 hour ago, Tinydance said:

I'm not sure what kinds of people some people associate with but amongst everyone I know I've never heard anybody tell others they're ugly. What a horrible thing to say.

I don't know if I'm just too optimistic but I honestly don't see that many ugly people around? I actually do like people watching. I do it every time I'm out and I'm not driving, especially when I'm by myself. I honestly don't see many ugly people or any really.

Then again I think ugly or repulsive are very strong words. Most people are not ugly or repulsive. That's why I just find it hard to believe that the only reason why someone can't find a partner is because they're ugly. 

Also I know it's easy to think that if someone is not interested in us, it must be about our looks. I think in most cases it's not. Even if it technically is about looks, that's probably just because attraction is subjective. Someone could look perfectly fine or even attractive and yet some people won't be into them.

Right, but if someone knows nothing about you, and has never heard you speak, and already they're at "eww!", then surely it must be a visual problem. I mean really, that's what it boils down to a lot of the time. I dress well, I don't stink etc, I've changed and improved literally everything I can change and improve.

1 hour ago, kctiger said:

Looks get you in the door, but personality, charisma, charm, etc. keep you in the room and take you to a deeper connection. At the very least, you seem to be intelligent and capable of an informed conversation. That's more than a lot of people can offer. 

Someone already brought this up I think, but it seems to me you label yourself confident but then call yourself ugly. That may indirectly affect the way you talk to women, even if you don't sense it. Women sense fear, desperation and low self-confidence like sharks sense blood. 

I very much agree with that first statement. But sadly I'm on the outside of the room, peering in like a child in a ***ens novel!

Again, it's not that I'm calling myself ugly, or that I think I am, but that seems to be the growing consensus. The only people who disagree are my close friends who are obviously going to sugar coat it, and the people in this forum who've never seen me.

[moodindigo91]

17 minutes ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

but that seems to be the growing consensus

Okay, what's your fitness regimen like? Personally (I'm a 31/F) even if a man has an average face, if he has a nice body, that's a huge pull. 

Also, I really think it probably has a lot to do with how you're presenting yourself. It's hard to know because I can't see you physically. But maybe consider changing up your clothing style, hair style, w/e. 

Be very engaging when you're talking to women. Compliment them but not excessively, and when possible, compliment them on things they probably don't get complimented on a lot. Have interesting things to talk about. Also if you have a good sense of humor, try to be funny, tell jokes. 

[boltnrun]

21 hours ago, boltnrun said:

Have you ever seen a physically unattractive man who has a wife or a girlfriend? 

How would you presume he overcame his lack of good looks?

Serious question, I'm not trying to be funny or sarcastic.

You skipped my questions. I'm curious to know how you'd answer this.

[Coily]

Something that I see being a bit glossed over here, is the OP seems a bit lost on how to go about building the foundations for more successful relationships. The posts keep swirling around his self perception, confidence, and dating apps. I think he really needs guidance on social cues to push his luck a bit with dating, and start with small steps that others take for granted in dating.

There is some expectation that you can go 0-60 in dating here if he can just be the right kind of confident, and do all the right moves at the limbo bar. 

As a guy who has only had two relationships that weren't just dead end dates, and separated by 15 years; I came to realize that no matter how confident I was or these other empty suggestions; I didn't know how to cultivate non-platonic relationships. Why? Well it was the "bad" dates that were lessons, and when you don't experience those lessons when most do they become more difficult the older you get.  It may behoove the OP more to give him some of those tools in approaching, and how women like to be approached, as @moodindigo91 began; than just hyper focus on the OP's internal hang-ups.

granted I'm not much of one to speak as I'm ground down and defeated in the whole trying to find someone game; but that is for a different post. Ha

 

 

[tattoobunnie]

22 hours ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

Sure, but each of these people runs a business, and their business is in keeping me. They would of course promise wonderful things, but I would need regular sessions to get anywhere. Honestly it just feels like a scam. 

Or just do your due diligence and ask for their success rate. It's also up to you on how things turn out...they aren't magic genies.  If you don't listen to their advise and suggestions, that's your loss.

Sorry bub, but why should they do it for free?  You get what you pay for.

[Batya33]

Carnatic I don't know who you knew/knew of to conclude as you did.  I have met people -men and women -who behave as you describe.  I know and know of many in their 20s and 30s (meaning quite a bit younger than me)and when I was that age it simply wasn't as broad and widespread -this toxic/offensive stuff you reference.  We have had different life experiences then and now it seems.

OP - many goals involve gaps in knowledge, experience, information.  Marriage in particular is often described as a leap of faith - even for couples who have been together for years.  This is an apt analysis IMO.  And I never questioned my ability to assess whether I wanted to get married and have a family despite never having done so . Many life goals require a similar leap of faith -we do our best to know ourselves, to gather pertinent information and  then it's a risk . The risk is worth it IMO if you truly want it.  No guarantees of course.

You're far more into pointing out flaws in everyone's input here than in taking an honest assessment of what's really going on IMO so I may limit -or stop -my input as debating is not why I responded. I don't need to be right.  I think you badly want to be right far more than you want to be close to another person.

[DarkCh0c0]

2 hours ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

really don't see how it's "self defeating" to acknowledge it is a field with zero qualifications required, with an open-ended business structure with no finish line, and no guarantees of it working

Is there a guarantee in any business though?

Have you actively went on generalist coaching websites and looked up relationship/dating coaches? A lot of them DO have training, education, and qualifications.

Listen, I was skeptical too. I was stuck in an area of my life FOR YEARS. I tried everything I could, but I just couldn't move forward. Then I shared my concern with someone and they very briefly mentioned coaching. I'm almost 30 too, and so I was tired. I started looking up the sites, found professional coaches, tried 3 (free), and the third one I had some confidence in her style and background.

I can't tell you how life changing she was for me from session #1! I became unstuck by session #2 and she got to the root of the problem by session #2. She's expensive, but worth every dime.

So I'm not telling you this like that. I've tried myself and I realized that the field has a bad rep because of amateurs on YouTube and whatnot.

And if you truly cared about yourself and your dating future, you should be down to try ANYTHING. EVEN IF YOU ARE "UGLY", you can find a coach who will help you learn better social skills (flirting, ect.) And help you present yourself in a different light. Seriously.

[DarkCh0c0]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QbxinUJcLGg This is from the author of the book "Ugly". You might like this watch and find it helpful.

[MysteriousTelephone]

5 hours ago, moodindigo91 said:

Okay, what's your fitness regimen like? Personally (I'm a 31/F) even if a man has an average face, if he has a nice body, that's a huge pull. 

Also, I really think it probably has a lot to do with how you're presenting yourself. It's hard to know because I can't see you physically. But maybe consider changing up your clothing style, hair style, w/e. 

Be very engaging when you're talking to women. Compliment them but not excessively, and when possible, compliment them on things they probably don't get complimented on a lot. Have interesting things to talk about. Also if you have a good sense of humor, try to be funny, tell jokes. 

My fitness regime is consistent: I go to the gym 3-4 times a week, on a push/pull/legs routine, diet is fairly clean. It's given me a fairly broad chest & shoulders for my size, which I'm very pleased with, though mostly only gets me compliments from dudes. I do my best to dress to emphasise the features I have, I tend to go for flattering cuts, but not 'tight'.

Funny story, about a year ago I was at a gathering at a friend's house, and a couple I knew were there. We were all chatting about hook-ups and whatnot. When I went to the kitchen to head a drink, the woman was talking about if she was single what she'd look for, she referenced me and said "Like him... you know, but only from the neck down". I don't think she said it to be malicious, she probably has no idea that I heard it, that was just her opinion. I do still think I'm in some section of 'normal', facially, but the evidence does tend to mount the other way.

4 hours ago, boltnrun said:

You skipped my questions. I'm curious to know how you'd answer this.

Sorry bud, that was not intentional. I really am trying to reply to every question put my way here, must have slipped by:

1. Yes, I have.

2. Honestly, I have no idea. It irks me when I'm watching the news, and they're interviewing the girlfriend of a serial killer who's all "I had no idea", I'm out there doing my best, and the dude strangling cats is doing better than me! 

2 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Is there a guarantee in any business though?

Have you actively went on generalist coaching websites and looked up relationship/dating coaches? A lot of them DO have training, education, and qualifications.

Listen, I was skeptical too. I was stuck in an area of my life FOR YEARS. I tried everything I could, but I just couldn't move forward. Then I shared my concern with someone and they very briefly mentioned coaching. I'm almost 30 too, and so I was tired. I started looking up the sites, found professional coaches, tried 3 (free), and the third one I had some confidence in her style and background.

I can't tell you how life changing she was for me from session #1! I became unstuck by session #2 and she got to the root of the problem by session #2. She's expensive, but worth every dime.

So I'm not telling you this like that. I've tried myself and I realized that the field has a bad rep because of amateurs on YouTube and whatnot.

And if you truly cared about yourself and your dating future, you should be down to try ANYTHING. EVEN IF YOU ARE "UGLY", you can find a coach who will help you learn better social skills (flirting, ect.) And help you present yourself in a different light. Seriously.

Yes, definitely. Literally any other business; restaurants, fixing a bike, installing a TV, tailoring clothes, open heart surgery, pretty much any business runs on the model of providing a service as efficiently and quickly as possible to receive money for providing goods and services. If your steak does not turn up, or your cable does not work, you would withhold payment or hold the service provider to account.

I'm really glad you found a coach that you clicked with and it's helped you, but that does not change my point that it is a field that's A) open ended B) requires zero qualifications or board of oversight, and C) only makes money on the comeback. Even Personal Trainers, there are many good ones out there, but their business is in repeat clients. Except in this there is no accountability, theoretically I could be paying for this service for months and getting nowhere, and there would be zero liability on the dating coach's side, it would be on me for "not believing hard enough" or whatever.

[Wiseman2]

Have you ever heard of "Body Dysmorphic Disorder"? Not that you have this but it's an inordinate obsession with perceived "imperfections". Obviously a good dentist, surgeon, dermatologist, hairstylist etc. could help you out but your debating seems to have you fixed and locked in a corner. You also seem to strive for hookups and using sites such as Tinder in a "Hot-or-Not" type of way. You seem to have a lot going for you, so it's unclear what exactly you are aiming for as far as women.